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arcticwarrior
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Posted: 3/16/2012 11:02:52 AM
[Last Edit: 3/16/2012 11:11:04 AM by arcticwarrior]
I recently purchased a POF-USA P-308 (16.5" barrel) from Rainer Arms. I received this rifle and was abhorred with what I saw when I opened the box. For a company that prides itself on precision rifles, their quality control leaves something to be desired. I cannot comment on how the rifle shoots as I never got that far in the process, I was literally afraid to load a bullet into this thing. Below I'll list what was wrong with the rifle and then let the pictures speak for themselves. I can say that I payed a small fortune for the rifle and expected not only a great rifle, but even greater customer service. I was sorely disappointed on both accounts. If you do your homework and really search, you too can be educated and not have to relive the nightmare that I went through.

I immediately called POF-USA and was assured that I would be taken care of, that came from the owner.

Well, today marks a month they have had the rifle, after several calls, the issue is now resolved. I was refunded in full by Rainer Arms. As of mid week (this week), the rifle was not back from being reanodized. I was treated like a second class citizen by the owner, when he did talk to me. He refused to call me back when left messages on his work & cell phones. When I did finally get a hold of him, his excuse for not calling me back was that I shouldn't expect the owner of a company to call the customer back. I will say though, Rob in Sales at POF-USA is a good person who has great customer service skills. I an being serious when I say that. He was genuine in his concern but was unable to do much as he told me more than one, "It's above my pay grade." He was very apologetic and willing to help me out where he could, however; he could not do anything about the length of time it would take to fix my rifle.

I see no excuse for taking a month + to fix a rifle that was brand new and never should have made it through the QC process in the first place. Thats just piss poor customer service no matter what way you look at it. I understand the weapons industry is busy, very busy, but I was not a potential customer, I paid for and received a rifle that was defective. One would think that a company would make it their top priority to fix the problem and get it right back to the customer or get him a new rifle with an apology. I received neither.

SO, I am not telling anyone NOT to buy a POF-USA Rifle, the design seems solid & I was sold on it. It may be a great rifle, I wouldn't know as I didn't get that far in the process. When you purchase a product you also purchase that companies customer service as well. I am simply stating that my experience with this company was so negative that I will never do business with them in the future. I understand that sometimes faulty products squeak through the QC process, not on this scale, but it happens. It's what a company does from their to rectify the problems is what matters. Again, I am not saying that this will happen to anyone else should they purchase a rifle from POF-USA, this was MY experience and I thought I'd share it. IMO, owner treated me like an idiot who must obviously not have nearly the knowledge that he does when it comes to rifles. I don't like being talked down to. He made me feel like I should be privileged to own his company's product. It was excuse after excuse.

I elected to take my refund from Rainer Arms and purchase a rifle from another weapons manufacturer who treated me exceptionally well and thus far has top notch customer service. I'll post a review of their rifle in their industry section on ARF after I shoot it.

On a side note, Rainer Arms is still in my opinion one of the best stores on the web to get your gear from. John, the owner, saw the pictures of my rifle, once verified, he understood the situation, and made everything right. I'll post pics of the new rifle when I get it next week. I'd of bought it from Rainer Arms if they carried the brand as they take care of their customers above all else. Perhaps in the future they will carry my new rifle.

1. Machining marks were plainly visible and easily felt all over the lower receiver. The grooves were so easily felt that a blindfolded person would have caught it.

2. The finish on the upper receiver was not uniform (two different shades of black) and had some white substance on it.

3. There was salt leftover from the nitrating process of the barrel that was plainly visible and felt.

4. The bolt was filthy and had some kind of sandy grit that appeared to be part of the metal.

5. The finish on the barrel was not uniform.

6. The dust-cover spring was sticking up past the ejection port where it could easily snag on something or cut you.

7. There was the anodizing missing from the left side of the ejection port, showing shiny metal.

8. The bolt face, chamber, and barrel were all filthy.









"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ---Thomas Jefferson
kubitza1234
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Posted: 3/16/2012 12:20:09 PM
Sorry to hear about your experience. I have a brand new Np3 coated P415 that will be delivered to me on the 22nd and I hope I don't end up with a bad one myself. Glad they got you refunded etc , just a shame the whole process took that long .
Stryker187
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Posted: 3/17/2012 8:21:48 PM
As the owner of a POF USA P415 my experience has been all positive. Fortunately I've not yet had a need for POF CS(knock on wood). Unfortunately your CS experience has been echoed by others and I suppose the only explanation that makes sense is one I just recently read in another thread.

This is a quote from Arfcom member ChuckinMass, "Being in the IT business for over 20 years, I have seen a lot of companies disappear due to lack of customer service. Most of the failures are engineering driven companies that fail to empathize with their customer ( I worked for a couple of them!)".

IMHO POFs are really good systems and it would be a shame to see their demise as a result of something as simple as not standing behind their products.
Stryker187
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Posted: 3/17/2012 8:31:16 PM
Arctic, were the KNS pins added by you? It's my understanding they're not recommended(by Geissele) for use with Geissele triggers.
arcticwarrior
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Posted: 3/18/2012 6:06:41 PM
No sir, the KNS Pins came standard on the POF. I would hope everything is compatible on their rifle. I wouldn't be surprised though as Cody told me that the dust cover spring sticking up past the ejection port lip was "NORMAL." I think he's one of their armorers?
arcticwarrior
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Posted: 3/23/2012 12:36:56 PM
[Last Edit: 3/23/2012 1:42:14 PM by arcticwarrior]
I just got my new rifle last night. It's not a POF, it's a Hogan and it is beautiful. Now it's time to go beat it up and expend rounds like it's intended for. On a side note, the only reason the MAKO Grip Pod is on there is for my zeroing at the range.





kubitza1234
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Posted: 3/23/2012 3:03:56 PM
Well i got my new P-415 and it was perfect shape and its a great shooting and looking rifle. Good fit and finish etc.

Dealer had several of most models in stock as well and shipped it out the same day.

So luckily my experience has been good.
arcticwarrior
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Posted: 3/23/2012 3:39:47 PM
kubitza1234, good deal sir. I'm glad you got squared away. Nobody want to hear of someone who went through a situation like I did. It's no good for anyone. I'm just thankful that the guys over at Hogan got me squared away. Something good came out of this whole cluster-fvck after all.
silentbob343
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Posted: 3/23/2012 10:02:25 PM
Originally Posted By arcticwarrior:
kubitza1234, good deal sir. I'm glad you got squared away. Nobody want to hear of someone who went through a situation like I did. It's no good for anyone. I'm just thankful that the guys over at Hogan got me squared away. Something good came out of this whole cluster-fvck after all.


What I can't understand is why they don't simply get you another rifle. Wattempt to fix it with the customer waiting? Are they going to re-machine the pieces and refinish them? Go and grab new parts and build a new rifle and send it to the customer.

Take the reject and problem solve/troubleshoot it on company time. It's not like it was a function issue and you want to replicate the circumstances of the customer; it was aesthetic, easily identifiable, and not easily correctable. The only reason I can see for not getting you a new rifle would be lack of supply, but I don't believe POF doesn't have extras on hand and/or controls their supply chain that tightly.
arcticwarrior
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Posted: 3/24/2012 9:00:20 PM
[Last Edit: 3/24/2012 9:01:51 PM by arcticwarrior]
Originally Posted By silentbob343:
Originally Posted By arcticwarrior:
kubitza1234, good deal sir. I'm glad you got squared away. Nobody want to hear of someone who went through a situation like I did. It's no good for anyone. I'm just thankful that the guys over at Hogan got me squared away. Something good came out of this whole cluster-fvck after all.


What I can't understand is why they don't simply get you another rifle. Wattempt to fix it with the customer waiting? Are they going to re-machine the pieces and refinish them? Go and grab new parts and build a new rifle and send it to the customer.

Take the reject and problem solve/troubleshoot it on company time. It's not like it was a function issue and you want to replicate the circumstances of the customer; it was aesthetic, easily identifiable, and not easily correctable. The only reason I can see for not getting you a new rifle would be lack of supply, but I don't believe POF doesn't have extras on hand and/or controls their supply chain that tightly.


I wondered that myself sir. The only thing I can think of for their actions is piss poor customer service. I blame the owner for that. Rob was always very helpful and did what he could to help me, but in the end told me it was out of his hands. Even he told me that he could not understand nor explain the owners behavior. IMO, the owner seemed like he was on an ego trip & couldn't have cared less. That was evident by him refusing to return my calls while taking his damn time with my rifle. If I would have been provided a new rifle in it's place, I would have been a happy customer. However; I'm glad it ended the way it did. I saw a persons true colors and in the end I got their competitions rifle. It's a nicer rifle anyway with superior customer service to back it up.

I just want to be clear again, I am not telling anyone not to buy a POF-USA rifle. I just think one should do their homework in regards to the various reviews online, call the companies, ask questions, ect..... I personally would own a slingshot before another POF-USA rifle. I simply just don't trust it as their customer service history with me is completely shot, YMMV. I am much happier with my Hogan H-308 & I would & will be recommending Hogan Guns to everyone that I know.
J-L
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Posted: 3/25/2012 12:20:01 AM
I had to deal with their customer service once when I had a problem with my POF 5.56 piston gun a few years ago.

They were a bunch of jerks.

Never will own another of their products again.

Rickymachinegun
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Posted: 3/27/2012 9:58:03 AM
[Last Edit: 3/27/2012 1:00:24 PM by Rickymachinegun]
here ya go I know this is rare with the POF but heres what happened with my buddies...

nothing but problems until customer service was reached. It was resolved quickly and at no cost to the owner except for the short 3 weeks without his rifle

WarFrontXavier
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Posted: 4/9/2012 2:24:58 PM
I really should have done my research on POF before I purchased their P-308 two weekends ago. I bought it at a gun dealership so was able to visually inspect it before buying and it was clean and new. However, at the firing range the next afternoon I encountered multiple problems that I would not have expected from such an expensive rifle. I experienced FTFs, spent casings that did not eject and became jammed inside along with a new round that did not feed properly. I went through 100 rounds that day and probably 1 out of six shots involved problems. So I cleaned and oiled the rifle that evening. According to the manual, the piston should have slid out easily during dis assembly. This was not the case. I had to put pressure on the piston rod to force the piston out. I thought perhaps the stuck piston was the source of my troubles at the range so I also cleaned and oiled it. The following weekend at the range I encountered more of the same issues at the same frequency as the prior weekend. This time there were even spent casings that were not extracted from the bore at all. After performing field troubleshooting, the piston did come out easily on it's own therefore I have no idea where these problems are coming from. So I'm beginning the process of getting a refund. I'll keep you posted on how that goes.
arcticwarrior
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Posted: 4/9/2012 10:42:27 PM
Originally Posted By WarFrontXavier:
I really should have done my research on POF before I purchased their P-308 two weekends ago. I bought it at a gun dealership so was able to visually inspect it before buying and it was clean and new. However, at the firing range the next afternoon I encountered multiple problems that I would not have expected from such an expensive rifle. I experienced FTFs, spent casings that did not eject and became jammed inside along with a new round that did not feed properly. I went through 100 rounds that day and probably 1 out of six shots involved problems. So I cleaned and oiled the rifle that evening. According to the manual, the piston should have slid out easily during dis assembly. This was not the case. I had to put pressure on the piston rod to force the piston out. I thought perhaps the stuck piston was the source of my troubles at the range so I also cleaned and oiled it. The following weekend at the range I encountered more of the same issues at the same frequency as the prior weekend. This time there were even spent casings that were not extracted from the bore at all. After performing field troubleshooting, the piston did come out easily on it's own therefore I have no idea where these problems are coming from. So I'm beginning the process of getting a refund. I'll keep you posted on how that goes.


Good luck with that one brother! If you can't get your $$ back and have to send it in for warranty work, ask for Rob. He's the only one there that seems to give a shit. Get ready for the long haul though. They will have your rifle forever and you sure as hell won't get any help from the owner. He feels as though he shouldn't have to call his customers back. At-least that's what he told me. Frank is a tool and his son Cody is supposedly an armorer. I'll use the term "armorer" very loosely. I now envision a bunch of circus clowns in the POF shop putting together "rifles." I feel for ya. If you like the design of the rifle, but want one that is machines like it's supposed to be and from a company with great people skills, call Hogan Guns and ask for Chris. They got me squared away. The guys over at Hogan really do get it and they will bend over backwards to satisfy their customers. I have to say they are one of the best. if not the best gun companies that I have ever dealt with. I'm glad things worked out the way they did for me, in the end, I got a great rifle from a great company.
Mogwa
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Posted: 4/10/2012 11:55:53 PM
Originally Posted By WarFrontXavier:
I really should have done my research on POF before I purchased their P-308 two weekends ago. I bought it at a gun dealership so was able to visually inspect it before buying and it was clean and new. However, at the firing range the next afternoon I encountered multiple problems that I would not have expected from such an expensive rifle. I experienced FTFs, spent casings that did not eject and became jammed inside along with a new round that did not feed properly. I went through 100 rounds that day and probably 1 out of six shots involved problems. So I cleaned and oiled the rifle that evening. According to the manual, the piston should have slid out easily during dis assembly. This was not the case. I had to put pressure on the piston rod to force the piston out. I thought perhaps the stuck piston was the source of my troubles at the range so I also cleaned and oiled it. The following weekend at the range I encountered more of the same issues at the same frequency as the prior weekend. This time there were even spent casings that were not extracted from the bore at all. After performing field troubleshooting, the piston did come out easily on it's own therefore I have no idea where these problems are coming from. So I'm beginning the process of getting a refund. I'll keep you posted on how that goes.


If you are using DPMS mags, they suck. Use Magpul mags. That may fix your FTF. FTE are most likely due to the nitride treatment in the chamber/barrel. Brass is sticking to the inside of your chamber. Using a .308 chamber brush, clean chamber thoroughly. Sometimes salts from the treatment leach from the metal and cause the listed issue. Make sure you are using decent ammo such as PMC or LC. Lastly, the piston does need tapped out from time to time. That is normal. Just make sure you are lubing your gun till it gets broke in. For some reason people think this is not necessary. Well, drain the oil on your new car and drive it.

After throwing out the DPMS mag that came with it and cleaning the chamber, mine has ran without malfunction for over 1k rounds.
RUTGERS95
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Posted: 4/11/2012 8:39:45 AM
like anything made and sold by man, not all things will be perfect. My guess is you just got one that got through the qc cracks. It's not common, certainly sucks it happened to you but it's not common with pof
WarFrontXavier
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Posted: 4/12/2012 12:49:58 AM
Originally Posted By Mogwa:

If you are using DPMS mags, they suck. Use Magpul mags. That may fix your FTF. FTE are most likely due to the nitride treatment in the chamber/barrel. Brass is sticking to the inside of your chamber. Using a .308 chamber brush, clean chamber thoroughly. Sometimes salts from the treatment leach from the metal and cause the listed issue. Make sure you are using decent ammo such as PMC or LC. Lastly, the piston does need tapped out from time to time. That is normal. Just make sure you are lubing your gun till it gets broke in. For some reason people think this is not necessary. Well, drain the oil on your new car and drive it.

After throwing out the DPMS mag that came with it and cleaning the chamber, mine has ran without malfunction for over 1k rounds.


Mine came with a PMAG rather than a DPMS. Per the piston, I fired less than 100 rounds the first time I took it to a range and had many jams, FTEs and FTFs. I took it home, cleaned and oiled the piston assembly as well as the rest of the gun and on my 2nd range visit one week later I used the same number of rounds and had just as many of the same problems. I really don't feel this is a normal phase of breaking in a new gun or a minor QC issue that slipped through the cracks as the problems occurred far too often. I admit my .223 AR from Bushmaster jams less today than when it was new but even then we're talking maybe once per 30 rounds. With the POF you'd multiply that problem times 5 or 6.
Mogwa
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Posted: 4/12/2012 9:36:25 AM
Did you clean your chamber????

Did you try a different PMAG, maybe its out of spec???
snook556
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Posted: 4/12/2012 7:34:30 PM
Back in the fall I bought a POF P415, I thought I got a deal (not in price ) because the dealer told me that another customer had "given up" on the 16-18 week lead time and had cancelled his order––so, I could get one in only 4 weeks, it was the exact one I wanted so I bit. When it arrived I was disappointed in the fit and finish of the rifle (not like described above), I just thought there were some pretty sharp edges that shouldn't have been there. Also there were things that were advertised but not present: no ambi switch, gas plug coating was different than stated, something else. (also I thought the MAGPUL stock was inferior to the VLTOR, but I did know that going in).

I contacted Rob in customer service and he was great and mailed me an ambi switch once they had them back in stock––no hassle.

The reason I went with POF was due to the simplicity of their piston design, I just think its superior to ones with more parts. At the range Iove this gun, I've been surprised how fast I can rapid fire and stay on target. No malfunctions to date with PMC, LC, and a friends 'first attempt' re-loads. (only a few hundred rounds through her in total though).

As I put in my review on the dealers website, These rifles became very popular quickly and the manufacturer is obviously having difficulty keeping up with demand––-AND they'd better watch their QC or they'll find their reputation in the shitter!
kubitza1234
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Posted: 4/12/2012 7:46:28 PM
Most problems seem to always be with the 308 for some reason. Might be because when I bought my p415 all the dealers were saying they couldn't keep the 308 on the shelf and were always on B/O. Leads me to believe they are rushing threw them to get the back orders filled and aren't getting the attention they should be before leaving the factory.
hippies_suck71
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Posted: 4/12/2012 9:47:45 PM
Members from another forum had some choice things to say about POF also. Nothing really good. The one person that bought a rifle couldnt even get it to fire due to an out of spec firing pin. So all this does not surprise me. IGA Precision was another one that was recommended...
Jlowell2
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Posted: 4/15/2012 11:35:20 AM
glad I found this thread. I was considering buying a POF. Forget that.
Proconsul
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Posted: 4/15/2012 1:18:01 PM
[Last Edit: 4/15/2012 1:28:30 PM by Proconsul]
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
like anything made and sold by man, not all things will be perfect. My guess is you just got one that got through the qc cracks. It's not common, certainly sucks it happened to you but it's not common with pof


Yeah, yeah. We got it from your commentary in the POF/LWRC/Sig thread: nothing in the universe has ever been manufactured to the quality of a POF...

I will say that I have had magnificent results from my POF 14.5" P415 and two POF 16.5" P415 uppers. They have been highly reliable and absolute tack drivers on accuracy. However, to the OP's point, when you pay this much money for a rifle, you should get first-rate quality or customer service that makes it right. I wish your experience was as positive as mine has been with my POFs, but since it wasn't, I hope the Hogan delivers what you paid for.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/proconsul/Armory/Sets/52.jpg
semperserveranceSTA
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Posted: 4/16/2012 2:57:10 AM
[Last Edit: 4/16/2012 2:58:24 AM by semperserveranceSTA]
Originally Posted By Proconsul:
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
like anything made and sold by man, not all things will be perfect. My guess is you just got one that got through the qc cracks. It's not common, certainly sucks it happened to you but it's not common with pof


Yeah, yeah. We got it from your commentary in the POF/LWRC/Sig thread: nothing in the universe has ever been manufactured to the quality of a POF...

I will say that I have had magnificent results from my POF 14.5" P415 and two POF 16.5" P415 uppers. They have been highly reliable and absolute tack drivers on accuracy. However, to the OP's point, when you pay this much money for a rifle, you should get first-rate quality or customer service that makes it right. I wish your experience was as positive as mine has been with my POFs, but since it wasn't, I hope the Hogan delivers what you paid for.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/proconsul/Armory/Sets/52.jpg


Wow that's some serious boom sticks right there. I like it when guys like you who obviously own several rifles of a manufacturer can step back and have a neutral perspective on the facts. There's so much fan boy attitudes that is simple immaturity. On a side note to OP man you paid ALOT for a rifle. A precision machine that's held to a higher standard supposedly than many others. That rifle looked like luke-warm cat shit. No excuse for the OWNER of the company to talk down to a person who already PAID for the rifle. Man ...
88formula
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Posted: 4/16/2012 4:00:56 PM
I have owned a couple of POF 5.56, the uppers were lasers...I also owned a 16" 308...had jamming problems...chamber was tight, POF made good on it and fixed the problem......no issues, that is also an unbiased opinion....
Proconsul
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Posted: 4/16/2012 5:12:20 PM
Originally Posted By 88formula:
I have owned a couple of POF 5.56, the uppers were lasers...I also owned a 16" 308...had jamming problems...chamber was tight, POF made good on it and fixed the problem......no issues, that is also an unbiased opinion....


88formula should know... the top upper was his. :)

And yes, it is a laser.
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