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Posted: 3/16/2012 6:02:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2012 6:11:04 AM EST by arcticwarrior]
I recently purchased a POF-USA P-308 (16.5" barrel) from Rainer Arms. I received this rifle and was abhorred with what I saw when I opened the box. For a company that prides itself on precision rifles, their quality control leaves something to be desired. I cannot comment on how the rifle shoots as I never got that far in the process, I was literally afraid to load a bullet into this thing. Below I'll list what was wrong with the rifle and then let the pictures speak for themselves. I can say that I payed a small fortune for the rifle and expected not only a great rifle, but even greater customer service. I was sorely disappointed on both accounts. If you do your homework and really search, you too can be educated and not have to relive the nightmare that I went through.

I immediately called POF-USA and was assured that I would be taken care of, that came from the owner.

Well, today marks a month they have had the rifle, after several calls, the issue is now resolved. I was refunded in full by Rainer Arms. As of mid week (this week), the rifle was not back from being reanodized. I was treated like a second class citizen by the owner, when he did talk to me. He refused to call me back when left messages on his work & cell phones. When I did finally get a hold of him, his excuse for not calling me back was that I shouldn't expect the owner of a company to call the customer back. I will say though, Rob in Sales at POF-USA is a good person who has great customer service skills. I an being serious when I say that. He was genuine in his concern but was unable to do much as he told me more than one, "It's above my pay grade." He was very apologetic and willing to help me out where he could, however; he could not do anything about the length of time it would take to fix my rifle.

I see no excuse for taking a month + to fix a rifle that was brand new and never should have made it through the QC process in the first place. Thats just piss poor customer service no matter what way you look at it. I understand the weapons industry is busy, very busy, but I was not a potential customer, I paid for and received a rifle that was defective. One would think that a company would make it their top priority to fix the problem and get it right back to the customer or get him a new rifle with an apology. I received neither.

SO, I am not telling anyone NOT to buy a POF-USA Rifle, the design seems solid & I was sold on it. It may be a great rifle, I wouldn't know as I didn't get that far in the process. When you purchase a product you also purchase that companies customer service as well. I am simply stating that my experience with this company was so negative that I will never do business with them in the future. I understand that sometimes faulty products squeak through the QC process, not on this scale, but it happens. It's what a company does from their to rectify the problems is what matters. Again, I am not saying that this will happen to anyone else should they purchase a rifle from POF-USA, this was MY experience and I thought I'd share it. IMO, owner treated me like an idiot who must obviously not have nearly the knowledge that he does when it comes to rifles. I don't like being talked down to. He made me feel like I should be privileged to own his company's product. It was excuse after excuse.

I elected to take my refund from Rainer Arms and purchase a rifle from another weapons manufacturer who treated me exceptionally well and thus far has top notch customer service. I'll post a review of their rifle in their industry section on ARF after I shoot it.

On a side note, Rainer Arms is still in my opinion one of the best stores on the web to get your gear from. John, the owner, saw the pictures of my rifle, once verified, he understood the situation, and made everything right. I'll post pics of the new rifle when I get it next week. I'd of bought it from Rainer Arms if they carried the brand as they take care of their customers above all else. Perhaps in the future they will carry my new rifle.

1. Machining marks were plainly visible and easily felt all over the lower receiver. The grooves were so easily felt that a blindfolded person would have caught it.

2. The finish on the upper receiver was not uniform (two different shades of black) and had some white substance on it.

3. There was salt leftover from the nitrating process of the barrel that was plainly visible and felt.

4. The bolt was filthy and had some kind of sandy grit that appeared to be part of the metal.

5. The finish on the barrel was not uniform.

6. The dust-cover spring was sticking up past the ejection port where it could easily snag on something or cut you.

7. There was the anodizing missing from the left side of the ejection port, showing shiny metal.

8. The bolt face, chamber, and barrel were all filthy.









"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ---Thomas Jefferson
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Posted: 3/16/2012 7:20:09 AM EST
Sorry to hear about your experience. I have a brand new Np3 coated P415 that will be delivered to me on the 22nd and I hope I don't end up with a bad one myself. Glad they got you refunded etc , just a shame the whole process took that long .
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Posted: 3/17/2012 3:21:48 PM EST
As the owner of a POF USA P415 my experience has been all positive. Fortunately I've not yet had a need for POF CS(knock on wood). Unfortunately your CS experience has been echoed by others and I suppose the only explanation that makes sense is one I just recently read in another thread.

This is a quote from Arfcom member ChuckinMass, "Being in the IT business for over 20 years, I have seen a lot of companies disappear due to lack of customer service. Most of the failures are engineering driven companies that fail to empathize with their customer ( I worked for a couple of them!)".

IMHO POFs are really good systems and it would be a shame to see their demise as a result of something as simple as not standing behind their products.
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Posted: 3/17/2012 3:31:16 PM EST
Arctic, were the KNS pins added by you? It's my understanding they're not recommended(by Geissele) for use with Geissele triggers.
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Posted: 3/18/2012 1:06:41 PM EST
No sir, the KNS Pins came standard on the POF. I would hope everything is compatible on their rifle. I wouldn't be surprised though as Cody told me that the dust cover spring sticking up past the ejection port lip was "NORMAL." I think he's one of their armorers?
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Posted: 3/23/2012 7:36:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/23/2012 8:42:14 AM EST by arcticwarrior]
I just got my new rifle last night. It's not a POF, it's a Hogan and it is beautiful. Now it's time to go beat it up and expend rounds like it's intended for. On a side note, the only reason the MAKO Grip Pod is on there is for my zeroing at the range.





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Posted: 3/23/2012 10:03:56 AM EST
Well i got my new P-415 and it was perfect shape and its a great shooting and looking rifle. Good fit and finish etc.

Dealer had several of most models in stock as well and shipped it out the same day.

So luckily my experience has been good.
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Posted: 3/23/2012 10:39:47 AM EST
kubitza1234, good deal sir. I'm glad you got squared away. Nobody want to hear of someone who went through a situation like I did. It's no good for anyone. I'm just thankful that the guys over at Hogan got me squared away. Something good came out of this whole cluster-fvck after all.
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Posted: 3/23/2012 5:02:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By arcticwarrior:
kubitza1234, good deal sir. I'm glad you got squared away. Nobody want to hear of someone who went through a situation like I did. It's no good for anyone. I'm just thankful that the guys over at Hogan got me squared away. Something good came out of this whole cluster-fvck after all.


What I can't understand is why they don't simply get you another rifle. Wattempt to fix it with the customer waiting? Are they going to re-machine the pieces and refinish them? Go and grab new parts and build a new rifle and send it to the customer.

Take the reject and problem solve/troubleshoot it on company time. It's not like it was a function issue and you want to replicate the circumstances of the customer; it was aesthetic, easily identifiable, and not easily correctable. The only reason I can see for not getting you a new rifle would be lack of supply, but I don't believe POF doesn't have extras on hand and/or controls their supply chain that tightly.
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Posted: 3/24/2012 4:00:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/24/2012 4:01:51 PM EST by arcticwarrior]
Originally Posted By silentbob343:
Originally Posted By arcticwarrior:
kubitza1234, good deal sir. I'm glad you got squared away. Nobody want to hear of someone who went through a situation like I did. It's no good for anyone. I'm just thankful that the guys over at Hogan got me squared away. Something good came out of this whole cluster-fvck after all.


What I can't understand is why they don't simply get you another rifle. Wattempt to fix it with the customer waiting? Are they going to re-machine the pieces and refinish them? Go and grab new parts and build a new rifle and send it to the customer.

Take the reject and problem solve/troubleshoot it on company time. It's not like it was a function issue and you want to replicate the circumstances of the customer; it was aesthetic, easily identifiable, and not easily correctable. The only reason I can see for not getting you a new rifle would be lack of supply, but I don't believe POF doesn't have extras on hand and/or controls their supply chain that tightly.


I wondered that myself sir. The only thing I can think of for their actions is piss poor customer service. I blame the owner for that. Rob was always very helpful and did what he could to help me, but in the end told me it was out of his hands. Even he told me that he could not understand nor explain the owners behavior. IMO, the owner seemed like he was on an ego trip & couldn't have cared less. That was evident by him refusing to return my calls while taking his damn time with my rifle. If I would have been provided a new rifle in it's place, I would have been a happy customer. However; I'm glad it ended the way it did. I saw a persons true colors and in the end I got their competitions rifle. It's a nicer rifle anyway with superior customer service to back it up.

I just want to be clear again, I am not telling anyone not to buy a POF-USA rifle. I just think one should do their homework in regards to the various reviews online, call the companies, ask questions, ect..... I personally would own a slingshot before another POF-USA rifle. I simply just don't trust it as their customer service history with me is completely shot, YMMV. I am much happier with my Hogan H-308 & I would & will be recommending Hogan Guns to everyone that I know.
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Posted: 3/24/2012 7:20:01 PM EST
I had to deal with their customer service once when I had a problem with my POF 5.56 piston gun a few years ago.

They were a bunch of jerks.

Never will own another of their products again.

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Posted: 3/27/2012 4:58:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/27/2012 8:00:24 AM EST by Rickymachinegun]
here ya go I know this is rare with the POF but heres what happened with my buddies...

nothing but problems until customer service was reached. It was resolved quickly and at no cost to the owner except for the short 3 weeks without his rifle

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Posted: 4/9/2012 9:24:58 AM EST
I really should have done my research on POF before I purchased their P-308 two weekends ago. I bought it at a gun dealership so was able to visually inspect it before buying and it was clean and new. However, at the firing range the next afternoon I encountered multiple problems that I would not have expected from such an expensive rifle. I experienced FTFs, spent casings that did not eject and became jammed inside along with a new round that did not feed properly. I went through 100 rounds that day and probably 1 out of six shots involved problems. So I cleaned and oiled the rifle that evening. According to the manual, the piston should have slid out easily during dis assembly. This was not the case. I had to put pressure on the piston rod to force the piston out. I thought perhaps the stuck piston was the source of my troubles at the range so I also cleaned and oiled it. The following weekend at the range I encountered more of the same issues at the same frequency as the prior weekend. This time there were even spent casings that were not extracted from the bore at all. After performing field troubleshooting, the piston did come out easily on it's own therefore I have no idea where these problems are coming from. So I'm beginning the process of getting a refund. I'll keep you posted on how that goes.
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Posted: 4/9/2012 5:42:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By WarFrontXavier:
I really should have done my research on POF before I purchased their P-308 two weekends ago. I bought it at a gun dealership so was able to visually inspect it before buying and it was clean and new. However, at the firing range the next afternoon I encountered multiple problems that I would not have expected from such an expensive rifle. I experienced FTFs, spent casings that did not eject and became jammed inside along with a new round that did not feed properly. I went through 100 rounds that day and probably 1 out of six shots involved problems. So I cleaned and oiled the rifle that evening. According to the manual, the piston should have slid out easily during dis assembly. This was not the case. I had to put pressure on the piston rod to force the piston out. I thought perhaps the stuck piston was the source of my troubles at the range so I also cleaned and oiled it. The following weekend at the range I encountered more of the same issues at the same frequency as the prior weekend. This time there were even spent casings that were not extracted from the bore at all. After performing field troubleshooting, the piston did come out easily on it's own therefore I have no idea where these problems are coming from. So I'm beginning the process of getting a refund. I'll keep you posted on how that goes.


Good luck with that one brother! If you can't get your $$ back and have to send it in for warranty work, ask for Rob. He's the only one there that seems to give a shit. Get ready for the long haul though. They will have your rifle forever and you sure as hell won't get any help from the owner. He feels as though he shouldn't have to call his customers back. At-least that's what he told me. Frank is a tool and his son Cody is supposedly an armorer. I'll use the term "armorer" very loosely. I now envision a bunch of circus clowns in the POF shop putting together "rifles." I feel for ya. If you like the design of the rifle, but want one that is machines like it's supposed to be and from a company with great people skills, call Hogan Guns and ask for Chris. They got me squared away. The guys over at Hogan really do get it and they will bend over backwards to satisfy their customers. I have to say they are one of the best. if not the best gun companies that I have ever dealt with. I'm glad things worked out the way they did for me, in the end, I got a great rifle from a great company.
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Posted: 4/10/2012 6:55:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By WarFrontXavier:
I really should have done my research on POF before I purchased their P-308 two weekends ago. I bought it at a gun dealership so was able to visually inspect it before buying and it was clean and new. However, at the firing range the next afternoon I encountered multiple problems that I would not have expected from such an expensive rifle. I experienced FTFs, spent casings that did not eject and became jammed inside along with a new round that did not feed properly. I went through 100 rounds that day and probably 1 out of six shots involved problems. So I cleaned and oiled the rifle that evening. According to the manual, the piston should have slid out easily during dis assembly. This was not the case. I had to put pressure on the piston rod to force the piston out. I thought perhaps the stuck piston was the source of my troubles at the range so I also cleaned and oiled it. The following weekend at the range I encountered more of the same issues at the same frequency as the prior weekend. This time there were even spent casings that were not extracted from the bore at all. After performing field troubleshooting, the piston did come out easily on it's own therefore I have no idea where these problems are coming from. So I'm beginning the process of getting a refund. I'll keep you posted on how that goes.


If you are using DPMS mags, they suck. Use Magpul mags. That may fix your FTF. FTE are most likely due to the nitride treatment in the chamber/barrel. Brass is sticking to the inside of your chamber. Using a .308 chamber brush, clean chamber thoroughly. Sometimes salts from the treatment leach from the metal and cause the listed issue. Make sure you are using decent ammo such as PMC or LC. Lastly, the piston does need tapped out from time to time. That is normal. Just make sure you are lubing your gun till it gets broke in. For some reason people think this is not necessary. Well, drain the oil on your new car and drive it.

After throwing out the DPMS mag that came with it and cleaning the chamber, mine has ran without malfunction for over 1k rounds.
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Posted: 4/11/2012 3:39:45 AM EST
like anything made and sold by man, not all things will be perfect. My guess is you just got one that got through the qc cracks. It's not common, certainly sucks it happened to you but it's not common with pof
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Posted: 4/11/2012 7:49:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mogwa:

If you are using DPMS mags, they suck. Use Magpul mags. That may fix your FTF. FTE are most likely due to the nitride treatment in the chamber/barrel. Brass is sticking to the inside of your chamber. Using a .308 chamber brush, clean chamber thoroughly. Sometimes salts from the treatment leach from the metal and cause the listed issue. Make sure you are using decent ammo such as PMC or LC. Lastly, the piston does need tapped out from time to time. That is normal. Just make sure you are lubing your gun till it gets broke in. For some reason people think this is not necessary. Well, drain the oil on your new car and drive it.

After throwing out the DPMS mag that came with it and cleaning the chamber, mine has ran without malfunction for over 1k rounds.


Mine came with a PMAG rather than a DPMS. Per the piston, I fired less than 100 rounds the first time I took it to a range and had many jams, FTEs and FTFs. I took it home, cleaned and oiled the piston assembly as well as the rest of the gun and on my 2nd range visit one week later I used the same number of rounds and had just as many of the same problems. I really don't feel this is a normal phase of breaking in a new gun or a minor QC issue that slipped through the cracks as the problems occurred far too often. I admit my .223 AR from Bushmaster jams less today than when it was new but even then we're talking maybe once per 30 rounds. With the POF you'd multiply that problem times 5 or 6.
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Posted: 4/12/2012 4:36:25 AM EST
Did you clean your chamber????

Did you try a different PMAG, maybe its out of spec???
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Posted: 4/12/2012 2:34:30 PM EST
Back in the fall I bought a POF P415, I thought I got a deal (not in price ) because the dealer told me that another customer had "given up" on the 16-18 week lead time and had cancelled his order––so, I could get one in only 4 weeks, it was the exact one I wanted so I bit. When it arrived I was disappointed in the fit and finish of the rifle (not like described above), I just thought there were some pretty sharp edges that shouldn't have been there. Also there were things that were advertised but not present: no ambi switch, gas plug coating was different than stated, something else. (also I thought the MAGPUL stock was inferior to the VLTOR, but I did know that going in).

I contacted Rob in customer service and he was great and mailed me an ambi switch once they had them back in stock––no hassle.

The reason I went with POF was due to the simplicity of their piston design, I just think its superior to ones with more parts. At the range Iove this gun, I've been surprised how fast I can rapid fire and stay on target. No malfunctions to date with PMC, LC, and a friends 'first attempt' re-loads. (only a few hundred rounds through her in total though).

As I put in my review on the dealers website, These rifles became very popular quickly and the manufacturer is obviously having difficulty keeping up with demand––-AND they'd better watch their QC or they'll find their reputation in the shitter!
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Posted: 4/12/2012 2:46:28 PM EST
Most problems seem to always be with the 308 for some reason. Might be because when I bought my p415 all the dealers were saying they couldn't keep the 308 on the shelf and were always on B/O. Leads me to believe they are rushing threw them to get the back orders filled and aren't getting the attention they should be before leaving the factory.
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Posted: 4/12/2012 4:47:45 PM EST
Members from another forum had some choice things to say about POF also. Nothing really good. The one person that bought a rifle couldnt even get it to fire due to an out of spec firing pin. So all this does not surprise me. IGA Precision was another one that was recommended...
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Posted: 4/15/2012 6:35:20 AM EST
glad I found this thread. I was considering buying a POF. Forget that.
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Posted: 4/15/2012 8:18:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/15/2012 8:28:30 AM EST by Proconsul]
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
like anything made and sold by man, not all things will be perfect. My guess is you just got one that got through the qc cracks. It's not common, certainly sucks it happened to you but it's not common with pof


Yeah, yeah. We got it from your commentary in the POF/LWRC/Sig thread: nothing in the universe has ever been manufactured to the quality of a POF...

I will say that I have had magnificent results from my POF 14.5" P415 and two POF 16.5" P415 uppers. They have been highly reliable and absolute tack drivers on accuracy. However, to the OP's point, when you pay this much money for a rifle, you should get first-rate quality or customer service that makes it right. I wish your experience was as positive as mine has been with my POFs, but since it wasn't, I hope the Hogan delivers what you paid for.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/proconsul/Armory/Sets/52.jpg
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Posted: 4/15/2012 9:57:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/15/2012 9:58:24 PM EST by semperserveranceSTA]
Originally Posted By Proconsul:
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
like anything made and sold by man, not all things will be perfect. My guess is you just got one that got through the qc cracks. It's not common, certainly sucks it happened to you but it's not common with pof


Yeah, yeah. We got it from your commentary in the POF/LWRC/Sig thread: nothing in the universe has ever been manufactured to the quality of a POF...

I will say that I have had magnificent results from my POF 14.5" P415 and two POF 16.5" P415 uppers. They have been highly reliable and absolute tack drivers on accuracy. However, to the OP's point, when you pay this much money for a rifle, you should get first-rate quality or customer service that makes it right. I wish your experience was as positive as mine has been with my POFs, but since it wasn't, I hope the Hogan delivers what you paid for.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/proconsul/Armory/Sets/52.jpg


Wow that's some serious boom sticks right there. I like it when guys like you who obviously own several rifles of a manufacturer can step back and have a neutral perspective on the facts. There's so much fan boy attitudes that is simple immaturity. On a side note to OP man you paid ALOT for a rifle. A precision machine that's held to a higher standard supposedly than many others. That rifle looked like luke-warm cat shit. No excuse for the OWNER of the company to talk down to a person who already PAID for the rifle. Man ...
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Posted: 4/16/2012 11:00:56 AM EST
I have owned a couple of POF 5.56, the uppers were lasers...I also owned a 16" 308...had jamming problems...chamber was tight, POF made good on it and fixed the problem......no issues, that is also an unbiased opinion....
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Posted: 4/16/2012 12:12:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By 88formula:
I have owned a couple of POF 5.56, the uppers were lasers...I also owned a 16" 308...had jamming problems...chamber was tight, POF made good on it and fixed the problem......no issues, that is also an unbiased opinion....


88formula should know... the top upper was his. :)

And yes, it is a laser.
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Posted: 4/21/2012 11:33:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By semperserveranceSTA:
Originally Posted By Proconsul:
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
like anything made and sold by man, not all things will be perfect. My guess is you just got one that got through the qc cracks. It's not common, certainly sucks it happened to you but it's not common with pof


Yeah, yeah. We got it from your commentary in the POF/LWRC/Sig thread: nothing in the universe has ever been manufactured to the quality of a POF...

I will say that I have had magnificent results from my POF 14.5" P415 and two POF 16.5" P415 uppers. They have been highly reliable and absolute tack drivers on accuracy. However, to the OP's point, when you pay this much money for a rifle, you should get first-rate quality or customer service that makes it right. I wish your experience was as positive as mine has been with my POFs, but since it wasn't, I hope the Hogan delivers what you paid for.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/proconsul/Armory/Sets/52.jpg


Wow that's some serious boom sticks right there. I like it when guys like you who obviously own several rifles of a manufacturer can step back and have a neutral perspective on the facts. There's so much fan boy attitudes that is simple immaturity. On a side note to OP man you paid ALOT for a rifle. A precision machine that's held to a higher standard supposedly than many others. That rifle looked like luke-warm cat shit. No excuse for the OWNER of the company to talk down to a person who already PAID for the rifle. Man ...



Yes sir, I paid way too much coin for what I got. As far as neutral perspective, I don't think I really elaborated in my OP. The first AR type rifle I had experience with was an M-16A2, then an M-4 Carbine, both issued to me as a young Paratrooper. I own and have owned 5 different AR platforms, M-14. As far as pistons go, I owned an LWRCI M6A2 ( I loved that one), My Bushy is an Osprey Defense piston system conversion and I have not had 1 hiccup. My son shoots that one now, my wife has an AA and it's excellent. I have played with a Sig. I now own a Hogan. I'm also spent some time as a unit level armorer in the military. (I miss those days cause we always had an abundant amount of ammo.) I've been pretty well versed in AR's.

Never have I had such a negative experience as I did with POF. I was talked down to like I was the red-headed step-child of a red-headed step-child..... It's so weird, in the dictionary under both ASSHOLE & NARCISSIST it says see Frank........(Owner of POF) The guys over at Hogan Guns have done me right so far. The jury is still out on the rifle as I don't have very many rounds through it yet. The finish was excellent and the customer service has been some of the best I have ever seem. I have very high expectations. Ohhh, on a side note, I did have a small issue with my Hogan that need a correction. I contacted the Hogan with my concerns and spoke with the owner and the head technician. I was treated with respect and the matter was immediately resolved with fast turn around and an apology. I just can't say enough positive things about Hogan Gun's Customer Service.

Ya here that Frank? You should take lessons from your brother and the guys over at Hogan Guns when it comes to dealing with customers. Not to mention people skills in general.

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Posted: 4/26/2012 6:10:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/26/2012 6:42:36 PM EST by Nicks87]
I have a POF 415 that I've owned for about 3 years now and it has been an absolute pleasure to shoot. I've always been fond of the AR15 platform but the POF just goes above and beyond. I bought mine from cabelas and I've not had a single problem or complaint about the rifle at all.

I had a question about the weight of the buffer in my particular rifle, that I asked on these very forums, and I received a prompt answer from the guys at POF. I also called them about suppressing the rifle as well and their CS staff was very helpful and professional.

I'm sorry you and some others have had negative experiences with POF but I can assure you these rifles are top-of-the-line. I do however, agree that for the price you pay these companies should not only bend over backwards but be doing back-flips to assist you with any problems you might have with their weapon system. The same should be true for ALL firearms manufacturers.

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Posted: 5/3/2012 5:57:11 AM EST
I really hope that the OP's experience is the exception rather than the rule. I’ve had what I would consider a great experience with POF. My first rifle was a 14.5" in 5.56. I’ve had that rifle going on 2 years and use it as a work gun. Not a single jam ever. The people to the left and right hate the rifle because of the compensator but the rifle is an absolute beast. The only issue I’ve had with that was the lock tight on a screw which held the selector switch wiggled free during shooting and fell to the ground. I never did find it but a phone call while I was still on the range resulted in another screw being overnighted to me.



Me second experience was my recommendation to the "team" that we choose POF for a semi-auto .308. We had some serious issues with a RRA in .308 that we tried so we were looking for something else/better. We got the 16.5" .308 with a PRS stock on it. The damn thing started out as an absolute tack driver and was shooting 3/4" groups with Hornady TAP in rapid fire drills. I say started out as a tack driver because in its 3rd outing the groups went from sub MOA to 4 MOA. It had everybody scratching their heads for a while. We thought the scope went back so changed it out...nope. We thought maybe the last cleaning did something horrible to the barrel. We thought it was our shooting ability until we locked it in a vise and were still getting piss poor groups. Then finally, after blowing an embarrassing amount of rounds, we checked the top 5 screws that hold the rail to the received and found that they were not even finger tight. Once again the factory applied lock tight had come loose and was allowing the whole rail system to move slightly between shots. Torqued down the screws with a dose of lock tight and it was all high fives and naked chicks once again. The rifle has still not had any failures (in terms of FTF FTE etc) and at the LE price is a bargain compared to our bolt guns.
Top is 10 rounds bottom is 5.

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Posted: 5/20/2012 5:20:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/20/2012 5:21:03 PM EST by thorshammerblow]
I have a 16.5" P-308 and I have used it extensively. I even used it for a two day 3 gun match and I used tula steel cased 308 ammo with it (I left my match ammo at home like a dumbass). I did not have one problem with the gun then. The only time I have EVER had a problem with the gun was once when I went to the range I had the gas system set to suppressed and I was not cycling ammo, the other time I had a problem was when I was using some seriously blunt soft point ammo and it was having a problem (about 1 in 25) feeding. FMJ, HP, and ballistic tip and most sp ammo it eats like crazy. I got this rifle about 5 years ago and maybe there has been some serious QC problems since due to high demands, or maybe the owner is an asshole like you said, but my particular rifle is a gem.

Also, as someone else has alluded to, several people at the three gun matches I go to often comment, "that son of a bitch is loud!"
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Posted: 5/20/2012 5:45:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By WarFrontXavier:
Originally Posted By Mogwa:

If you are using DPMS mags, they suck. Use Magpul mags. That may fix your FTF. FTE are most likely due to the nitride treatment in the chamber/barrel. Brass is sticking to the inside of your chamber. Using a .308 chamber brush, clean chamber thoroughly. Sometimes salts from the treatment leach from the metal and cause the listed issue. Make sure you are using decent ammo such as PMC or LC. Lastly, the piston does need tapped out from time to time. That is normal. Just make sure you are lubing your gun till it gets broke in. For some reason people think this is not necessary. Well, drain the oil on your new car and drive it.

After throwing out the DPMS mag that came with it and cleaning the chamber, mine has ran without malfunction for over 1k rounds.


Mine came with a PMAG rather than a DPMS. Per the piston, I fired less than 100 rounds the first time I took it to a range and had many jams, FTEs and FTFs. I took it home, cleaned and oiled the piston assembly as well as the rest of the gun and on my 2nd range visit one week later I used the same number of rounds and had just as many of the same problems. I really don't feel this is a normal phase of breaking in a new gun or a minor QC issue that slipped through the cracks as the problems occurred far too often. I admit my .223 AR from Bushmaster jams less today than when it was new but even then we're talking maybe once per 30 rounds. With the POF you'd multiply that problem times 5 or 6.


I don't want to sound like an ass but maybe your doing something wrong.

the fact that your Bushy has a stoppage at least once a mag and your POF has issues to kinda leads one to point the fingers at the operator......... do you lube the rifle?

I mean I'm sorry no AR-15 be it piston or DI is going to jam once every 30 rounds in a nice environment. hell even rifles over in Iraq and Afghanistan can easily go 2 or 3 combat loads with out a stoppage
Originally Posted by Iraqgunz
This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?
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Posted: 6/3/2012 3:16:56 PM EST
Well, I got my refund. It took a couple of months and I needed to get the BBB involved as well as the retailer but I was given a full refund. Thankfully, the retailer was nice enough to help through this ordeal. I will certainly be doing business with the retailer again but will definitely stay away from POF.
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Posted: 6/4/2012 7:05:02 PM EST
POF makes some rifles that work, the rest are crap, junk and pathetic at best. CS is just as bad. Bush master sold me a real turd in about 95. Never have anything else of theirs either.
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Posted: 6/5/2012 6:56:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
POF makes some rifles that work, the rest are crap, junk and pathetic at best. CS is just as bad. Bush master sold me a real turd in about 95. Never have anything else of theirs either.




Thank you for your detailed experience.
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Posted: 6/6/2012 7:52:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
POF makes some rifles that work, the rest are crap, junk and pathetic at best. CS is just as bad. Bush master sold me a real turd in about 95. Never have anything else of theirs either.




Thank you for your detailed experience.


Not trying to be an ass dude but probably will. I've had a bakers dozen different AR's over the years besides GI rifles and the ones I currently run. Even Sig 556 and AK's I've had a lot of different rifles. I would never believe in betting my butt on the dependability of a POF for sure.
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Posted: 6/7/2012 4:44:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/7/2012 4:51:36 AM EST by Mogwa]
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
POF makes some rifles that work, the rest are crap, junk and pathetic at best. CS is just as bad. Bush master sold me a real turd in about 95. Never have anything else of theirs either.




Thank you for your detailed experience.


Not trying to be an ass dude but probably will. I've had a bakers dozen different AR's over the years besides GI rifles and the ones I currently run. Even Sig 556 and AK's I've had a lot of different rifles. I would never believe in betting my butt on the dependability of a POF for sure.

What the hell does that have to do with POF?
The guy who started this thread never even shot his. Comments such as yours should be reserved for actual shooters/owners of POF.
If you would run mine, you would recant your statement.
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Posted: 6/7/2012 4:48:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
POF makes some rifles that work, the rest are crap, junk and pathetic at best. CS is just as bad. Bush master sold me a real turd in about 95. Never have anything else of theirs either.




Thank you for your detailed experience.


Not trying to be an ass dude but probably will. I've had a bakers dozen different AR's over the years besides GI rifles and the ones I currently run. Even Sig 556 and AK's I've had a lot of different rifles. I would never believe in betting my butt on the dependability of a POF for sure.

What the hell does that have to do with POF?
The guy who started this thread never even shot his. Comments such as yours should be reserved for actual shooters/owners of POF.
If you would run mine, you would recant your statement.


Mogwa, I'm glad your rifle works for you. I really am, in all seriousness. I hope it runs smooth for you without even an issue. Because if you do have an issue, your probably gonna get bent over and screwed. I say that as after my ordeal with POF, I come to find out that I am one of many that have been screwed. My rifle was essentially held hostage as they had it and I couldn't get any detailed information about my rifle. An overpriced rifle that should never have had to get sent back in the first place. Your right, I never got a chance to shoot it, never got that far in the process. After the horrendous piece of shit that I saw when I opened that POF hard case, I wasn't gonna even bother trying to shoot it. If something that bad passed their QC process, I wasn't gonna put live ammo int it and risk my life. I'm not being over dramatic either, hell, the pics speak for themselves. That thing was seriously FUBAR! NOW, that and after being treated like the red headed step child of a red headed step child by the owner, I won't have anything to do with that company. I share my experiences so others won't have to go through the B.S. that I did. There are way too many other companies out there that will bend over backwards to give you a great product backed up by great customer service.
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Posted: 6/8/2012 6:13:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
POF makes some rifles that work, the rest are crap, junk and pathetic at best. CS is just as bad. Bush master sold me a real turd in about 95. Never have anything else of theirs either.




Thank you for your detailed experience.


Not trying to be an ass dude but probably will. I've had a bakers dozen different AR's over the years besides GI rifles and the ones I currently run. Even Sig 556 and AK's I've had a lot of different rifles. I would never believe in betting my butt on the dependability of a POF for sure.

What the hell does that have to do with POF?
The guy who started this thread never even shot his. Comments such as yours should be reserved for actual shooters/owners of POF.
If you would run mine, you would recant your statement.


You are lucky. Yours has worked so far. Congradulations. Good for you. How many were not so lucky? IDK. Makes you wonder how reliable your POS I mean POF rifle is right?
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Posted: 6/9/2012 6:49:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
POF makes some rifles that work, the rest are crap, junk and pathetic at best. CS is just as bad. Bush master sold me a real turd in about 95. Never have anything else of theirs either.




Thank you for your detailed experience.


Not trying to be an ass dude but probably will. I've had a bakers dozen different AR's over the years besides GI rifles and the ones I currently run. Even Sig 556 and AK's I've had a lot of different rifles. I would never believe in betting my butt on the dependability of a POF for sure.

What the hell does that have to do with POF?
The guy who started this thread never even shot his. Comments such as yours should be reserved for actual shooters/owners of POF.
If you would run mine, you would recant your statement.


You are lucky. Yours has worked so far. Congradulations. Good for you. How many were not so lucky? IDK. Makes you wonder how reliable your POS I mean POF rifle is right?


Last time, to get on here and write opinion of POF on no first hand experience is ignorant. Secondly, the OP bought a Hogan which is the exact same gun but stamped Hogan. The guns work and shoot great, both do. Just because a few people get on the internet and bitch doesn't make it a bad product as thusands of others are enjoying theirs. Do yourself a favor spend the 2.2K on a POF and then post your review. That will be worth reading
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Posted: 6/9/2012 3:23:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
POF makes some rifles that work, the rest are crap, junk and pathetic at best. CS is just as bad. Bush master sold me a real turd in about 95. Never have anything else of theirs either.




Thank you for your detailed experience.


Not trying to be an ass dude but probably will. I've had a bakers dozen different AR's over the years besides GI rifles and the ones I currently run. Even Sig 556 and AK's I've had a lot of different rifles. I would never believe in betting my butt on the dependability of a POF for sure.

What the hell does that have to do with POF?
The guy who started this thread never even shot his. Comments such as yours should be reserved for actual shooters/owners of POF.
If you would run mine, you would recant your statement.


You are lucky. Yours has worked so far. Congradulations. Good for you. How many were not so lucky? IDK. Makes you wonder how reliable your POS I mean POF rifle is right?


Last time, to get on here and write opinion of POF on no first hand experience is ignorant. Secondly, the OP bought a Hogan which is the exact same gun but stamped Hogan. The guns work and shoot great, both do. Just because a few people get on the internet and bitch doesn't make it a bad product as thusands of others are enjoying theirs. Do yourself a favor spend the 2.2K on a POF and then post your review. That will be worth reading


Mogwa,

Good input. Seriously, I am not knocking you. Everyone's input is appreciated. And, again, I am glad you had a positive experience with POF-USA. My gripe was partially about the rifle itself and mostly about the shitty treatment I received by way of "customer service." I do have to point out one thing though sir, they are not the same thing. The design is pretty much the same, yes. However; Hogan makes the parts themselves and stands behind their products. POF-USA farms out the work, has their logo stamped on the lowers, and then puts it together for sale to customers. Their armor (Franks son) is not very knowledgeable when it comes to the AR design. The spring was too long on the dust cover of their P-308, and was sticking up way past the ejection port as shown in the picture. Imagine catching that on bare skin in the cold. Frank's son ( I think his name is Cody), their armorer, said that it was normal and that if I didn't like it, I could cut down myself. That right there is seller customer service, let me tell ya. That same guy told another person that if they wanted a taller cheek rest to tape some foam around the stock. If that is the level of knowledge and experience they have, I'd advice people to stay the hell away. As far as Hogan Guns is concerned, they treated me very good, and have answered all questions I have asked of them. The owner never acted like he was too good to talk to me. They sold me a rifle and stayed in contact to make sure I was 100% satisfied. Hogan Guns level of customer service as far as I'm concerned is where the bar should be set. They are top notch! I give credit where credit is due. As for POF-USA, I hope they go out of business. There is no excuse for the way I was treated. I gave respect and was shit upon in return because I'm just a little guy who didn't matter as they already had my money & my rifle. That is no way in which to conduct business.

Again, Mogwa, I respect you and your position. I am happy that your POF is running great. I hope it lasts so long that you can hand it down for generations to come. You obviously received a great rifle. However, by your own admission, you never had to deal with their customer service. Friend, customer service is where it's at. If I'm gonna spend upwards of $2k on a product, the customer service had better be good. Hogan Guns filled the void for me where POF failed.
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Posted: 6/9/2012 5:19:57 PM EST
I had to deal with POF's CS and they were awesome! Took care of everything and did it in a timely manner.
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Posted: 6/9/2012 7:30:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
POF makes some rifles that work, the rest are crap, junk and pathetic at best. CS is just as bad. Bush master sold me a real turd in about 95. Never have anything else of theirs either.




Thank you for your detailed experience.


Not trying to be an ass dude but probably will. I've had a bakers dozen different AR's over the years besides GI rifles and the ones I currently run. Even Sig 556 and AK's I've had a lot of different rifles. I would never believe in betting my butt on the dependability of a POF for sure.

What the hell does that have to do with POF?
The guy who started this thread never even shot his. Comments such as yours should be reserved for actual shooters/owners of POF.
If you would run mine, you would recant your statement.


You are lucky. Yours has worked so far. Congradulations. Good for you. How many were not so lucky? IDK. Makes you wonder how reliable your POS I mean POF rifle is right?


Last time, to get on here and write opinion of POF on no first hand experience is ignorant. Secondly, the OP bought a Hogan which is the exact same gun but stamped Hogan. The guns work and shoot great, both do. Just because a few people get on the internet and bitch doesn't make it a bad product as thusands of others are enjoying theirs. Do yourself a favor spend the 2.2K on a POF and then post your review. That will be worth reading


Risk 2K on a POS, no thanks. Bought one several years ago for half that. New owner was frustrated. I worked on it for a while, problems with it were numerous and fairly dangerous. It was nice when I got it up to par, sold it and good riddence. A friend of mine went through about the same thing last year. This company really didnt seem to care his rifle barely would function. I guess their QC Dept is Mr McGoo, they cant see or even look for defects/problems. I will spend my money with an American Co that builds quality products and are concerned with the end users satisfaction.
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Posted: 6/11/2012 5:43:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
Originally Posted By Mogwa:
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
POF makes some rifles that work, the rest are crap, junk and pathetic at best. CS is just as bad. Bush master sold me a real turd in about 95. Never have anything else of theirs either.




Thank you for your detailed experience.


Not trying to be an ass dude but probably will. I've had a bakers dozen different AR's over the years besides GI rifles and the ones I currently run. Even Sig 556 and AK's I've had a lot of different rifles. I would never believe in betting my butt on the dependability of a POF for sure.

What the hell does that have to do with POF?
The guy who started this thread never even shot his. Comments such as yours should be reserved for actual shooters/owners of POF.
If you would run mine, you would recant your statement.[/qu
ote]


You are lucky. Yours has worked so far. Congradulations. Good for you. How many were not so lucky? IDK. Makes you wonder how reliable your POS I mean POF rifle is right?


Last time, to get on here and write opinion of POF on no first hand experience is ignorant. Secondly, the OP bought a Hogan which is the exact same gun but stamped Hogan. The guns work and shoot great, both do. Just because a few people get on the internet and bitch doesn't make it a bad product as thusands of others are enjoying theirs. Do yourself a favor spend the 2.2K on a POF and then post your review. That will be worth reading


Risk 2K on a POS, no thanks. Bought one several years ago for half that. New owner was frustrated. I worked on it for a while, problems with it were numerous and fairly dangerous. It was nice when I got it up to par, sold it and good riddence. A friend of mine went through about the same thing last year. This company really didnt seem to care his rifle barely would function. I guess their QC Dept is Mr McGoo, they cant see or even look for defects/problems. I will spend my money with an American Co that builds quality products and are concerned with the end users satisfaction.


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Posted: 6/11/2012 7:21:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2012 5:39:25 PM EST by dogpile556]
I must retract my last post. After thinking about it this has gone to a childish level, I apologize Mogwa. I think POF has an interesting design. Heavy pigs though. I still stand by many statements I made, I have no respct for this company.
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Posted: 7/6/2012 5:28:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
I must retract my last post. After thinking about it this has gone to a childish level, I apologize Mogwa. I think POF has an interesting design. Heavy pigs though. I still stand by many statements I made, I have no respct for this company.


As others have already said, I think you're full of it.

I understand being upset about keeping it so long, but even high end cars still have to go in for warranty work. It's man made, it's open to failure.
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Posted: 7/6/2012 10:45:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/6/2012 11:39:05 AM EST by arcticwarrior]
IDK, what I got out of that was that he bought it relatively new off of someone who was frustrated with the sub-par level of quality. He got it working good, and sold it. It sounded like he was given a level of poor customer service from POF. IDK, perhaps I read it wrong.
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Posted: 7/6/2012 9:24:53 PM EST
It is a fact. POF customer service has sucked in the past. Alot had to do with Frank's brother Chris being in charge of answering the phones. Chris is a decent guy in person, but he is really one those guys who should not interface with the public. I've had zero problems with my POF308 and when I stopped in to purchase a spare piston kit, Frank was more than happy to give me a tour of his factory and was very proud of the product. This was a year or so before the Hogan fiasco. Bottomline, I have the luxury of stopping in their factory in person since I live in Phoenix, but every maker, no matter who it is, produces a turd from time to time. If you are one of the unlucky ones that receives said turd, all of sudden customer service becomes a highly valuable part of the product. Again, I am in a unique position due to get things done in person if I had to due to living in Phoenix so CS didn't play into my decision as much as it might for someone else.
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Posted: 7/7/2012 6:23:55 PM EST
Having a background in engineering/machining, I can pull a miracle out of my pocket from time to time. Firearms are more complicated than you think. Try making one small part of it and see what happens. If not damn near perfect...............failure to go bang/failure to function. Now I know very intelligent individuals/machinists that dwarf my skills. If I came off with the "poop no stink" attitude, once again, apologies all around. After reading my statements, not very proud of how I presented the facts. With that stated, when you spend mucho duckets for top of the line you will be pretty upset with problems. When CS is no help smoke may start shooting out of your ears.
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Posted: 7/7/2012 6:30:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/7/2012 6:51:25 PM EST by dogpile556]
I knew he was having problems out of the box. I was getting the rifle cheap, wave the magic wand and all would be GTG. Wrong. It took a little more than that. When you look at a prduction environment, stuff happens. Thats when QC steps in and screams HALT! Does POF make their own bolts and carriers? I would be interested to know. Swat/Mogwa How hard have you run your rifles? Round count? I'm not "questioning" your creds. I would be interested to know your facts on why you believe in your rifle. Whats this "Hogan fiasco" you refered to.
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Posted: 7/7/2012 9:19:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/7/2012 9:27:34 PM EST by Swat_dude]
Originally Posted By dogpile556:
I knew he was having problems out of the box. I was getting the rifle cheap, wave the magic wand and all would be GTG. Wrong. It took a little more than that. When you look at a prduction environment, stuff happens. Thats when QC steps in and screams HALT! Does POF make their own bolts and carriers? I would be interested to know. Swat/Mogwa How hard have you run your rifles? Round count? I'm not "questioning" your creds. I would be interested to know your facts on why you believe in your rifle. Whats this "Hogan fiasco" you refered to.


I have .308 so I don't run it hard because I have it set up as a long range rifle with a Nightforce 3.5-15 x 56 scope. My round count is around 850 right now with zero malfunctions. I actually bought mine 4 years ago because I got tired of waiting for the REPR AND because I witnessed a shooter at Ben Avery repeatedly print 5 shot groups with all bullet holes touching with a 16-inch POF 308. I was blown away that an AR platform could be that accurate and immediately gave up my intention to purchase an accurized bolt gun in 308. At the time, POF was not yet using Robar for their coatings and they were using DPMS bolts. Now they manufacture their own bolts. They have always made their own carriers. I was in their factory and Hogan basically shared space with them and ran alot of CNC Millings for POF parts. Frank of POF and Hogan had a falling out which resulted in a law suit and Hogan stopping supplying POF with parts. Hogan started making an exact copy of the POF gun. I don't think the legal issues have been resolved yet.

Phoenix PD's SAU team adopted the POF. There was a rumor that they returned all their rifles but I called the Lieutenant in charge of the unit at the time and he told me they were extremely satisfied with their POF's and that the rumor was flat out not true. It was on this very forum the rumor started so it just goes to show you be cautious about what you hear. I know they run their guns hard.

http://www.pof-usa.com/p416/p416119sx.htm

I am also aware that California fish and game just picked up the POF308 as well.

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=2&f=206&t=214073

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Posted: 7/8/2012 4:33:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/8/2012 4:38:01 AM EST by RUTGERS95]
Originally Posted By Proconsul:
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
like anything made and sold by man, not all things will be perfect. My guess is you just got one that got through the qc cracks. It's not common, certainly sucks it happened to you but it's not common with pof


Yeah, yeah. We got it from your commentary in the POF/LWRC/Sig thread: nothing in the universe has ever been manufactured to the quality of a POF...

I will say that I have had magnificent results from my POF 14.5" P415 and two POF 16.5" P415 uppers. They have been highly reliable and absolute tack drivers on accuracy. However, to the OP's point, when you pay this much money for a rifle, you should get first-rate quality or customer service that makes it right. I wish your experience was as positive as mine has been with my POFs, but since it wasn't, I hope the Hogan delivers what you paid for.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/proconsul/Armory/Sets/52.jpg


are you fking stupid? did you not read my comments properly? If you read the other thread, I won't own a pof cause I don't like them vs other comparible rifles in that price range that however does not mean they are bad or are not well built. Every manufactuer has rifles that slip through qc.



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