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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Carrier-tilt buffers

Posted: 12/11/2011 6:13:04 PM EDT

I just bought an Adams Arms upper and it's my first PD. Of course, I'm worried about carrier-tilt and have seen some ads for anti carrier-tilt buffers. Any advice on these?

Posted: 12/11/2011 8:41:57 PM EDT

[#1]

I would tend to steer clear of them. They usually cause more problems than they fix. I would shoot my gun until I saw carrier tilt before I worried about this. How much is a new buffer tube, honestly?

Posted: 12/11/2011 9:12:51 PM EDT

[#2]

Most piston kits and guns have updated carriers that eliminate carrier tilt already, so the buffer is unnecessary, and create more problems than they solve.

Carrier tilt was never a serious issue, and pretty much resolved by most piston kit manufacturers, but is nearly an Internet meme when discussing a piston AR nowadays.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 12/12/2011 5:08:52 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Most piston kits and guns have updated carriers that eliminate carrier tilt already, so the buffer is unnecessary, and create more problems than they solve.

Carrier tilt was never a serious issue, and pretty much resolved by most piston kit manufacturers, but is nearly an Internet meme when discussing a piston AR nowadays.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

That's why I love this forum... You get "no nonsense" advice from those that know. I'll shoot the Adams upper as it, and watch for buffer tube wear. Thanks guys.

Posted: 12/12/2011 7:25:01 AM EDT

[#4]

You can also get a pws buffer tube if your afraid of it. I have it on my gun, gives you good peace of mind and I like how it mounts to the receiver

Posted: 12/12/2011 8:06:42 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
I would tend to steer clear of them. They usually cause more problems than they fix.

Other than changing the method of take down, what problems are you referring to?

Posted: 12/12/2011 12:08:39 PM EDT

[#6]

I went to the range today and tried out my new 6.8 Ruger upper along with the newly aquired "Ant-tilt" H-3 buffer and spring set from "Heavy Buffers" I fired about 60 rounds of 6.8 and I switched upper recievers over to the .556 Ruger half way through to see how that reciever would behaved with the new buffer. Both recievers preformed without any problems and there was no evidence of tilt or wear other than a small bit of wear on the inner part of the BCG where it interacts with the new buffer.

So, what do I think? Not sure yet. I liked using it and the piece of mind about not having to realy worry about any tilt issues is nice but not sure what else is gained. The stronger spring and perhaps the buffer also did seem to lessen recoil and I did not hear the spring twanging around as much as the stock set up does when you fire the gun. (I did get the spring noise when the last shot was fired and the BCG stayed in the back position.) I have not noticed this noise on my DI system Mk 12.
The only issue I have is the openning of the reciever thing mentioned in other posts. Not only can you not pivot the thing open on one pin but it isn't as simple as just removing both pins and sliding the lower back and off the upper either. You realy have to screw arround with it and I still have not been able to get the 6.8 upper off without using a screw driver to push the buffer down into the tube a little. Perhaps with a little bit of use and wear -in this problem gets better. But this is a thing to concider and perhaps there are other anti tilt buffers that don't stick as far into the back of the BCG, and thus should have less of this issue to deal with.
That's my 2 cents so far but not a lot of experience using it yet.

Posted: 12/12/2011 3:04:50 PM EDT

[#7]

I have an AA upper and without any special buffer, their is no abnormal wear. I have a VLTOR stock. I can't wait to clean the BCG in about 2017.

Posted: 12/12/2011 5:24:04 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would tend to steer clear of them. They usually cause more problems than they fix.

Other than changing the method of take down, what problems are you referring to?

Well you named one of them. May seem insignificant but one of the features that I like about the AR is the ability to shot gun it without having to take it completely down. It also may cause wear on the inside of your BCG depending on which one you go with. It also adds one more variable into trouble shooting a rifle that isn't running right. While all those things seem like small potatoes, if there is no problem to begin with, why add aggravations that your don't have to? If the rifle is tilting like a mofo, then by all means do what needs to be done to fix it, or replace the buffer tube every few thousand rounds.

Posted: 12/13/2011 8:48:53 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I would tend to steer clear of them. They usually cause more problems than they fix.

Other than changing the method of take down, what problems are you referring to?

Well you named one of them. May seem insignificant but one of the features that I like about the AR is the ability to shot gun it without having to take it completely down. It also may cause wear on the inside of your BCG depending on which one you go with. It also adds one more variable into trouble shooting a rifle that isn't running right. While all those things seem like small potatoes, if there is no problem to begin with, why add aggravations that your don't have to? If the rifle is tilting like a mofo, then by all means do what needs to be done to fix it, or replace the buffer tube every few thousand rounds.

Do you have anything to back up this assertion?

My experience (and that of many, many satisfied customers) is that adding a high quality buffer is virtually always more likely to correct problems than create problems.

Posted: 12/14/2011 3:42:50 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would tend to steer clear of them. They usually cause more problems than they fix.

Other than changing the method of take down, what problems are you referring to?

Well you named one of them. May seem insignificant but one of the features that I like about the AR is the ability to shot gun it without having to take it completely down. It also may cause wear on the inside of your BCG depending on which one you go with. It also adds one more variable into trouble shooting a rifle that isn't running right. While all those things seem like small potatoes, if there is no problem to begin with, why add aggravations that your don't have to? If the rifle is tilting like a mofo, then by all means do what needs to be done to fix it, or replace the buffer tube every few thousand rounds.

Do you have anything to back up this assertion?

My experience (and that of many, many satisfied customers) is that adding a high quality buffer is virtually always more likely to correct problems than create problems.

Me personally? No, I do not have proof, but people have posted pictures of BCGs that were wearing down. Again on most well made systems this is a non issue so why go adding shit that does nothing to fix anything.

Posted: 12/14/2011 4:29:32 AM EDT

[#11]

8620 steel is really hard, they made M1 receivers from it, I would not be worried about wear. Also the inside of the carrier is not a critical spec ether. The ID is there so the machines can cut the firing area etc....

Slashs buffer does what is says it does and does what its patent covers.

Posted: 12/14/2011 10:03:40 AM EDT

[#12]

I can say I had a situation that proved to be fixed with one, it took about an entire year of shooting high volume fire to figure what the occasional ghost in the machine was. It was crushing the extension from day one, that doesn't at all bother me, but it would act funny in long burst of full auto, not every time but occasionally, I ended up making my own buffer from a H2 body and putting a pocket and screwing a cylinder to the head, anyhow it really smoothed it out, it had enough tolerance slack that it seemed to make the action better cycling with hand because everything was in line,

*What you see as tilt wear on lowers is there on the DI slightly if you just use your hand to cycle the carrier tons. Manufacturers have shifted the lower portion of the upper upwards to avoid interaction but I still believe that fighting the tilt could be done by insanely tight tolerances or just adding the buffer with head.

The gun is not hard to take apart at all, if you try it one time you'll be over it.

Posted: 12/14/2011 6:42:19 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I would tend to steer clear of them. They usually cause more problems than they fix.

Other than changing the method of take down, what problems are you referring to?

Well you named one of them. May seem insignificant but one of the features that I like about the AR is the ability to shot gun it without having to take it completely down. It also may cause wear on the inside of your BCG depending on which one you go with. It also adds one more variable into trouble shooting a rifle that isn't running right. While all those things seem like small potatoes, if there is no problem to begin with, why add aggravations that your don't have to? If the rifle is tilting like a mofo, then by all means do what needs to be done to fix it, or replace the buffer tube every few thousand rounds.

Do you have anything to back up this assertion?

My experience (and that of many, many satisfied customers) is that adding a high quality buffer is virtually always more likely to correct problems than create problems.

Me personally? No, I do not have proof, but people have posted pictures of BCGs that were wearing down. Again on most well made systems this is a non issue so why go adding shit that does nothing to fix anything.

Please share the pics.

Posted: 12/15/2011 6:05:26 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would tend to steer clear of them. They usually cause more problems than they fix.

Other than changing the method of take down, what problems are you referring to?

Well you named one of them. May seem insignificant but one of the features that I like about the AR is the ability to shot gun it without having to take it completely down. It also may cause wear on the inside of your BCG depending on which one you go with. It also adds one more variable into trouble shooting a rifle that isn't running right. While all those things seem like small potatoes, if there is no problem to begin with, why add aggravations that your don't have to? If the rifle is tilting like a mofo, then by all means do what needs to be done to fix it, or replace the buffer tube every few thousand rounds.

Do you have anything to back up this assertion?

My experience (and that of many, many satisfied customers) is that adding a high quality buffer is virtually always more likely to correct problems than create problems.

Me personally? No, I do not have proof, but people have posted pictures of BCGs that were wearing down. Again on most well made systems this is a non issue so why go adding shit that does nothing to fix anything.

Please share the pics.

Looking for them.

Posted: 12/15/2011 9:32:21 AM EDT

[#15]

Are the anti tilt buffers still solid weight? That's what has steared me clear of them

Posted: 12/15/2011 4:26:51 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Are the anti tilt buffers still solid weight? That's what has steared me clear of them

Unfortunately, it would appear so. Firearms Ready Solutions (FRS) made them with reciprocating weights, but they are now out of business.

Posted: 12/15/2011 7:08:23 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Are the anti tilt buffers still solid weight? That's what has steared me clear of them

Everything H3 and heavier has reciprocating weights. I can make H2 and lighter Anti-Tilt buffers with reciprocating weights by custom order.

If you are shooting semi-auto only the reciprocating weights are not necessary. Bolt Bounce only occurs in full auto fire.

Posted: 12/16/2011 6:22:22 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Are the anti tilt buffers still solid weight? That's what has steared me clear of them

Everything H3 and heavier has reciprocating weights. I can make H2 and lighter Anti-Tilt buffers with reciprocating weights by custom order.

If you are shooting semi-auto only the reciprocating weights are not necessary. Bolt Bounce only occurs in full auto fire.

True but a fouled gun can gain from the reciprocating mass. Your design does push the carrier forward a tad so its a similar idea.

Posted: 12/17/2011 5:26:48 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
I went to the range today and tried out my new 6.8 Ruger upper along with the newly aquired "Ant-tilt" H-3 buffer and spring set from "Heavy Buffers" I fired about 60 rounds of 6.8 and I switched upper recievers over to the .556 Ruger half way through to see how that reciever would behaved with the new buffer. Both recievers preformed without any problems and there was no evidence of tilt or wear other than a small bit of wear on the inner part of the BCG where it interacts with the new buffer.

So, what do I think? Not sure yet. I liked using it and the piece of mind about not having to realy worry about any tilt issues is nice but not sure what else is gained. The stronger spring and perhaps the buffer also did seem to lessen recoil and I did not hear the spring twanging around as much as the stock set up does when you fire the gun. (I did get the spring noise when the last shot was fired and the BCG stayed in the back position.) I have not noticed this noise on my DI system Mk 12.
The only issue I have is the openning of the reciever thing mentioned in other posts. Not only can you not pivot the thing open on one pin but it isn't as simple as just removing both pins and sliding the lower back and off the upper either. You realy have to screw arround with it and I still have not been able to get the 6.8 upper off without using a screw driver to push the buffer down into the tube a little. Perhaps with a little bit of use and wear -in this problem gets better. But this is a thing to concider and perhaps there are other anti tilt buffers that don't stick as far into the back of the BCG, and thus should have less of this issue to deal with.
That's my 2 cents so far but not a lot of experience using it yet.

Your lower receiver has a sear block. Either mill it flush or get a lower without the sear block. Then you will be able to slide the upper forward enough to clear the projection on the buffer from the rear of the carrier.

Posted: 12/17/2011 5:32:46 PM EDT

[#20]

Me personally? No, I do not have proof, but people have posted pictures of BCGs that were wearing down. Again on most well made systems this is a non issue so why go adding shit that does nothing to fix anything.

I'll vouch for Slash's buffers. I've got the H3 buffer. Cycles all ammo ranging from TulAmmo to Hornaday 75gr TAP. Buffer works exactly as advertised. No unusual BCG wear. Keeps carrier tilt to a minimum. The only tradeoff is that you have to pop the front and rear pins out when cleaning. Not a big deal to me. I find it hard to believe when I see a picture posted of a particular piston system that has had "thousands of rounds" through it with no signs of carrier tilt. I shoot with guys with high round count POFs and LWRCs . Both guns have very visible carrier tilt.

After thousands of rounds, the stock buffer tube on my LMT MRP catastrophically failed. Spit the buffer retaining pin out while firing and locked up my gun.

Here's my tube after installing Slash's buffer. There is a tiny bit surface wear, but it gotten any worse in 1000+ rounds.

Posted: 12/17/2011 5:41:43 PM EDT

[#21]

My lower is a Gen one POF I put together myself. I did finally get the 6.8 upper and the lower apart without a screwdriver. Seems to be getting a little easier but you may be rite about milling the receiver just a small amount - Just not sure if I want to take it all apart again. If it continues to get a little easier to disassemble I won't bother to mill it. It is so darn close to being able to disassemble without a tool. If the buffer extension were only 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch shorter the problem would not exist!
Having bitched about this enough I do like the idea behind this and other similarly designed anti-tilt buffers. Keying it into the back of the BCG and keeping the BCG cycling in a straight line and evenly should have other benefits besides just reducing buffer tube wear.
As for the pictures of damage and problems caused by this type of buffer design, I would be interested to see what shows up and what exactly the cause turns out to be.

Posted: 12/17/2011 5:49:04 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
My lower is a Gen one POF I put together myself. I did finally get the 6.8 upper and the lower apart without a screwdriver. Seems to be getting a little easier but you may be rite about milling the receiver just a small amount - Just not sure if I want to take it all apart again. If it continues to get a little easier to disassemble I won't bother to mill it. It is so darn close to being able to disassemble without a tool. If the buffer extension were only 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch shorter the problem would not exist!
Having bitched about this enough I do like the idea behind this and other similarly designed anti-tilt buffers. Keying it into the back of the BCG and keeping the BCG cycling in a straight line and evenly should have other benefits besides just reducing buffer tube wear.
As for the pictures of damage and problems caused by this type of buffer design, I would be interested to see what shows up and what exactly the cause turns out to be.

How many rounds through your rig? Newer upper and lowers can be a bit snug.

I've shot my LMT setup enough to create a bit of slop between the upper and lower, and the 2 pins slide out fairly easily. I push the rear takedown out first, squeeze the upper and lower together by hand, and then push the front pivot pin out. Assembly is the reverse of takedown.

The upper to lower fit is unusually tight on LMT's when you first get them. Now, I've broken her in. Not so tight anymore.

Posted: 12/17/2011 6:01:15 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
My lower is a Gen one POF I put together myself. I did finally get the 6.8 upper and the lower apart without a screwdriver. Seems to be getting a little easier but you may be rite about milling the receiver just a small amount - Just not sure if I want to take it all apart again. If it continues to get a little easier to disassemble I won't bother to mill it. It is so darn close to being able to disassemble without a tool. If the buffer extension were only 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch shorter the problem would not exist!
Having bitched about this enough I do like the idea behind this and other similarly designed anti-tilt buffers. Keying it into the back of the BCG and keeping the BCG cycling in a straight line and evenly should have other benefits besides just reducing buffer tube wear.
As for the pictures of damage and problems caused by this type of buffer design, I would be interested to see what shows up and what exactly the cause turns out to be.

How many rounds through your rig? Newer upper and lowers can be a bit snug.

I've shot my LMT setup enough to create a bit of slop between the upper and lower, and the 2 pins slide out fairly easily. I push the rear takedown out first, squeeze the upper and lower together by hand, and then push the front pivot pin out. Assembly is the reverse of takedown.

The .556 upper has about 600-800 rounds through it and the 6.8 only about 100 so far. The .556 comes appart with a little presuasion and the 6.8 apparently will do the same now, so you could be rite on about wear in for this type of set up. Still, if the extension could be just a little shorter the problem would be solved and I gotta think with no ill effect to the over all design of what the extended buffer is supposed to do.

Posted: 12/18/2011 10:50:22 AM EDT

[#24]

The .556 upper has about 600-800 rounds through it and the 6.8 only about 100 so far. The .556 comes appart with a little presuasion and the 6.8 apparently will do the same now, so you could be rite on about wear in for this type of set up. Still, if the extension could be just a little shorter the problem would be solved and I gotta think with no ill effect to the over all design of what the extended buffer is supposed to do.

I'll gladly modify the buffer if you want to send it back. If you have a blocked lower that's the problem though, not the buffer.

Posted: 12/18/2011 3:08:43 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

The .556 upper has about 600-800 rounds through it and the 6.8 only about 100 so far. The .556 comes appart with a little presuasion and the 6.8 apparently will do the same now, so you could be rite on about wear in for this type of set up. Still, if the extension could be just a little shorter the problem would be solved and I gotta think with no ill effect to the over all design of what the extended buffer is supposed to do.

I'll gladly modify the buffer if you want to send it back. If you have a blocked lower that's the problem though, not the buffer.

I think I may do that. I like the over-all design and what is trying to be done for more than just the buffer tube issue. I also have to think that there are a lot of other folks out there that have receivers that could have this issue so I would think that if modifying/ shaving about 1/8 inch of the extension could solve this problem a lot easier than milling the receiver, it would make this product work for more rifles/ customers.
Not trying to bash this product. I like the idea but perhaps a few tweaks makes it more versatile.
I will email you off forum and get address.

Posted: 12/18/2011 5:20:02 PM EDT

[#26]

OK, I decided to fix the problem myself and it seems to have been quick and easy. The issue was that the leading vertical square edge of the rear take down pin block on the upper receiver would contact the area that I think Clint referred to as the "sear block" on the right side of the lower receiver. The "sear block" had a rounded edge. All I did was I took the square edge off of the rear take down pin block on the right side of the upper receiver so that it meshed with the rounded edge on the lower that it was striking. Just this tiny bit of filing did the trick but it was holding everything up from disassembling properly. Problem solved - on both upper receivers I have so we seem to be good to go.
Thanks and sorry for the trouble.