Story from the BBC of a "military grade rifle" found in Strabane in Northern Ireland. I'm sure they'll find the AR18 will be traced back to the original batch of about 2,000 of AR18's that were smuggled into Northern Ireland during "The Troubles" from the US through the NORAID line.

I've always been a big fan of the AR-18, the " only military rifle in history to fail on three continents without ever having been in a war". While it may have been a failure, it's probably the most influential rifle of the post WW-II era.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-35398298

Awesome weapon, and AMAZING that the sheepies are so afraid of it!

Heard someone on the radio the other day make the comment....If you want to go see Ireland do it now because the IRA is back and they are pissed


I don't know the politics of what is going on over there but that is what was said.

Supt Mark McEwan said that the weapon could have had a "devastating impact".
"The calibre of this weapon is such that the ammunition that was recovered along with it is capable of penetrating brick walls."

FFS what an asshole.  

You gotta understand, the IRA is vilified here in the US because they're anti-British.  But if you study the history of The Troubles you'll quickly learn that the terrorism started with the ULA Loyalists.  If the "IRA is back and they are pissed" it's because the Ulsters (Loyalists) have started violence again.  Most everything traces its roots back to social equality for Catholics.  When the Catholics demand it, the Protestantd get pissed and start up with the violence.  The Protestants of Northern Ireland make the KKK look like rank amateurs.    

The politics is very interesting.  The loyalists in Northern Ireland have a HUGE freaking chip on their shoulder.  The Brits exported settlers to Northern Ireland something like 600 years ago to establish a permanent footprint on the island; and it worked.  The Brits who live in Northern Ireland are FIERCELY British and will get violently offended at anything that's pro Republic of Ireland.  A little known fact of The Troubles here in the US is that it was really started by the Loyalists (Protestants) by their social treatment and violence toward the Catholics (who then became Republicans).  That's little known here in the US because much of the ULA terrorism wasn't reported by the US media.  

And the Northern Ireland issue is really a great case study of how gun control can completely screw a minority.  Since the Unionists (Protestant Loyalists) controlled the police, they quite conveniently found themselves rather well armed, where the Catholics were completely disarmed.  The Provisional IRA was started kinda as a neighborhood watch to defend Catholics from violence from the Unionists.  Several Catholic families were actually violently driven from their home so that Protestant families could be given the homes; quite reminiscent of what happened in the early parts of the 20th century in the South with black families.  The IRA had always existed to defend Catholics against Loyalist violence, but the Provisional IRA wanted to strike back with violence of their own; so they eagerly sought out weapons.

From around 1968 to around 1978 most of the real violence was done by the ULA (Ulster Liberation Army - Unionist terrorist group).  The Provo's responded with, with smaller, less coordinated, and rather amateurish reprisals.  After a decade of getting their asses handed to them, the IRA realized they really had to get their act together.  So they really REALLY did and became probably the most professional and effective terrorist organization of the 20th century.  From the early '80's on up until the peace treaty, the IRA began a vicious terror campaign against both the Loyalists and the British government.  

The whole thing could have been avoided if the Brits just would have had the will to reign in the Loyalists.  But they were pro-British, so you can understand how that was difficult to do politically.  As for an uprising today, not a huge worry, but it's always a threat.  The Brits are WAY better about reigning in the Loyalists when they get out of hand, and of course they'll hammer Catholics if they're stepping over the line too.  The hard part always remains the Loyalists because they're so easily offended by anything that gives a Catholic any sort of equal rights under the law, or just any social program for Catholics.  

Simply put the two sides REALLY hate each other.  Belfast is a divided town to this day, and some would call it a "Sundown town"...Catholics and Protestants can go to the other side of town, but they'd better get their asses back home before dark.  

There's the cliff's notes (or the Cliff's notes of the Cliff's notes).  That summation is HORRIBLY over-simplified and there are tons of little things that happened before the big events with both sides doing their worst.  

Sounds like a great place to send a whole bunch of refugees to.

A little 'diversity' could straighten everything out, one way or another.....
 

Diversity is the spice of life, sure would give each side someone different to shoot at and blow up.  

Catholics ARE Christians.  I believe you are meaning to say Catholics and PROTESTANTS.

Whoa, good catch; where the hell was MY head at???  

3030, sadly, your post reads like IA club promotional literature.  It isn't all wrong, but it leaves a lot out.

Yes, the presby lunatics are hard to control.  Part of what sends them over the edge is the prospect of sharing political power with the same sort of people that spent the last century engaged is a more mild form of ethnic cleansing that we saw serbs carry out in the former Yugoslavia.  Is Ian Paisely paranoid?  Certainly.  Is his paranoia rooted in a knowledge of an historical danger posed by a population less tolerant of social diversity.  Also certainly.

"Ireland" has never been a country; it's the name of an island.  A century ago, one could find protestants and RCs, english, scottish throughout the island in fairly significant populations, as well as a rural RC population some of whom were within clan systems. In modern terms, the place was diverse.   When the southern counties were made independent, that last population, who considered themselves the only rightful inhabitants, prevailed upon all the other groups to move out.

As a consequence, well into the 1970s the south was ethnically less diverse and quite poor; the north was more diverse and industrial.

The IRA aligned themselves with the soviets and undertook grizzly assasinations in the south, the north and the UK.  Rather than an armed neighborhood watch for RCs it was a modern european terrorist group that drew most of its funding from unsophisticated US donors.

The IRA lost their refuge as the south became more prosperous.  The south had the good fortune of having missed the industrial revolution and the rust belt issues of the north, and is now poised to take advantage of its population of english speakers without the industrial legacy costs.

Being from Northeast Pa coal region and Irish I can tell you to this day we are still asked if we are Green or Orange.  Its goes a little deeper than you think.   and to keep this retro      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHY14OVk7r0

Politically, very difficult indeed. I am not well read on the subject of troubles in Ireland. I like the English, but understand they can be heavy handed. Hell, even Northern English don't like Southern English, so a good dose of prejudice exists, enough for everyone! I know most English don't care for the Irish, as they seem to think they are more trouble than they are worth. Have never known many or any Irish, so not sure what they think about the English OR each other?

I suspect the reference to ammo that could cut through brick walls is referring to M855. Just like here, the media likes to sensationalize everything. Too bad that rifle will probably be cut up, but who knows, it COULD end up in a museum in the UK. Surely not in Ireland though, for fear it gets "re-aquisitioned" and returned to service...

In my home its red, white, and blue or get the fuck out.

Im so thankful my ancestors were smart enough to leave that shithole country behind. They swore to hold no more allegiance to the old country, and I sure as fuck dont

ETA: Fuck all terrorists to hell

I believe we had a prior thread with photos of the weapons used by the IRA. Supposedly when the armistice was signed all the IRA weapons were turned in but it doesn't appear that way from the article. One feature of the AR-18 that I'm sure made it quite popular was the folding stock making it quite compact to conceal. It picked up the moniker, "the widow maker" and a song was written about it. As for the politics I'll stay out of that discussion since I have no dog in the fight.

I Remember from history class another group of people who stood up to the Brits not so long ago.........................    

Yeah, and our forefathers bombed hotels too.

Just burned houses and belongings. and cant find where black powder was used but it likely happened

https://books.google.ca/books?id=TBEndQ7GyWMC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.ca/books?id=TBEndQ7GyWMC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=american+burned+house+of+loyalists&source=bl&ots=s_7Feds6zj&sig=6osAfpiXADYnmYFkiACMtLcWFdU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Xt3eUYeqKrK84APp64DoBg#v=onepage&q=american%20burned%20house%20of%20loyalists&f=false

I don't know much about AR-18's or FAL's but M-16's are another thing and if memory serves there are plenty of US Govt marked pieces stashed here and there or were,  like by the ton.  Be careful of who one has a drink or shoots darts with when taking in the sites would be very good advice to adhere to.

I also vaguely remember seeing a vision of a burned building that still had the chains and locks on the metal doors in my worldly travels and the 200ish that resided inside made the news print in one long continuous list.  I also saw the movie Patriot with a little similar action going on approximately 20 plus years later.  Seemed to be a certain ethnic groups flavor of the day and probably all for only one sorry rump,  possibly well deserving MF.  

In a whole lot of places Catholics aren't considered Christian either,  not just Ireland and haven't been for probably 1000 years or better.  Some of the atrocities they did out of sheer greed made the original Adolf look rather tame in comparison too.  Ever seen a dungeon or the tools they used on the heretics?  Makes a little cyanide gas seem rather humane.

I wouldn't buy into the we turned in our guns thing,  no different than here,  if say a total firearms ban was introduced.   Not like the boys in the hood have registered weapons and no one at the top seems to be doing anything about that.  Too busy hassling the decent folk who won't put a bullet in their ear.

Nothing like having a morning tea to the sound of an exploding bomb up the street either.  Many didn't even seemed  phased by such and just went about their day as if nothing even happened.  Won't be long before it could be common place here also.  Too much scum running and policing things and honest hard working tax payers will probably only stand for so much.  Definitely a fight that can't be won but that doesn't mean some won't try.  History always repeats itself (uniformitarianism) after those who fought the previous conflict are gone and the stories of the ugliness of war are all but forgotten.

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?",  "forbid it Almighty God", "I know not what course others may take but as for me",  "Give me liberty or give me death"

Interesting that I have remembered that little speech for the past 45 years or such.  Used to be taught to every American child by the 4th grade and few mucked it up on recital day regardless of race or religious beliefs.  Of course a 4th or 5th grade education 40 years ago was probably the equivalent of today's 2-3rd year in college,  where I was raised anyway and it didn't cost $30K plus a year and every cashier knew how to add and subtract with or without a college degree.

The flavor of the day is brainwashing our children with socialism or worse and it makes me nauseous watching our elected politicians and teachers blow smoke up everyone's butt while they fleece and steal all they can hiding behind the law while they do so.

Not like it's a new thing either.  Hire / elect some slick talking devil who lines his pockets in the Garden of Eden while others suffer.  Not like probably the majority of  the American population wouldn't secretly rejoice if AF1 was blown out of the sky either.  

What the heck,  our junkies need the smack our soldiers give their lives for daily and the oil that we all love to burn as much as we can afford.

Cdenmark, condeming modern irish RCs for millenium old practices or the misdeeds of 1970s terrorists is an anachronism and unfair.  Modern people in the republic are a fairly well functioning and modern society.  Like americans, they have their own problems with RCism and even their own version of the mortgage default crisis.



If the reference is to the american insurrection, the analogy isn't great.  The american action was an assertion of the rights of englishmen rather than a sort of semi-religious nationalist crusade.  The conflict was not primarily amongst the english already here, but between colonials and crown.



I am familiar with this phenomenon, but it is largely a product of the northern ghetto experience.  I knew people who belonged to IA clubs and attended IRA fundraisers in the 1970s.

The counties who wanted independence had been independent for a half century at that point; the independence question had been resolved.  People in the Republic don't spend much time on it.  Yet, in the mind of irish-american communities in the american north (most of whom came to the states well more than a century ago), there was still some kind of epic oppression by an english occupier.  It was a bizarre fantasy built on a freeze-dried but antique resentment; I think it was used cynically to lift money from americans.

Northern Ireland is a gerrymandered area whose purpose is to give a Protestant Pro-England majority [lots of competing polls, but lets just cut the b.s. and acknowledge it's prob close to 51% Protestant 49% Catholic]. The rest of the island, the Republic of Ireland, is overwhelmingly Catholic. In the Good Friday Agreement, both sides agreed that:

- "a substantial number" of people living on the island of Ireland want a united Eire, independent and free.
- the majority of the people of Northern Ireland want to be part of the UK.
 
The agreement reached was that Northern Ireland would remain part of the U.K. until a majority of the people of Northern Ireland and of the Republic of Ireland wished otherwise. When that happens, the English and Irish governments are under "a binding obligation" to implement that choice. When that will occur who knows - I can't decipher when that vote could or will occur. But you can most certainly be assured that at that point Northern Ireland goes away and Eire will be united once and for all.

Now, I have a feeling for England, have very close friends there, and travel there often. They are our mother country. But, my opinion is that the time has come for giving Ireland back to the Irish. YMMV - not trying to start a flame war - it's a touchy subject and can get you hurt discussing it over there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRubyHeP5Jw

Cdenmark, condeming modern irish RCs for millenium old practices or the misdeeds of 1970s terrorists is an anachronism and unfair.

I didn't condemn anyone or am I going to until they personally effect my life, liberty or my pursuit of happiness.  Otherwise I'm simply going to leave that up to the Almighty.  I'd bet money those M-16's and parts still exist today.  I don't read about it until OP, finance it or actually care  to.  Both my wife and I are of Irish descent also.  Mine from the early 1700's and hers from late 1800's (I'm almost positive hers were Catholic,  mine I'd have to ask but few proceeding me hadn't read the bible more than most reverends and we simply call ourselves Christian, although I kinda wonder about my siblings).  If they will steal from me their blood kin I feel for others they may come in contact with.  My mother is a genealogist and has taken that lineage back into the 1400's.

I just wrote what I have seen with my own two eyes.  I know I was asked to be a lookout by an Irish lad I met in a pub who had bought me a couple of pints.  I didn't walk but ran as fast as I could away from that scene and didn't even know what was going on at the time. I just knew it was time to go.  When I get a bad feeling I generally trust to my instincts and those were to get away from that clown.  

When I walked by the same establishment  the next day to catch a  train  the same building I had stood out in front of the night before was burned to the ground with doors chained and I'm simply going on assumption as to what actually occurred and was told it was the doings of a certain group.  Don't know that they took credit for it but that was the general populous assumption.  The doors in and out were below street level and block walled.  The fire was started on the above floor and those inside never had a chance.

The M-16's were a totally different event but somehow I feel they were related looking back as there was common ground involved and they did take credit for who and what they represented.  The simple fact that those weapons were sold and delivered by some of our most respected / elected citizens isn't really that shocking either.

I also almost got the crap beat out of me for simply having one Scottish pound sterling in a British pub.  I remember it well.  The pub owner announced "He's got Scottish money!" It became so quiet one could have heard a pin drop and everyone seated inside got up and started to surround me.  I quickly yelled "wait a minute you  MF's,  " I ain't never even been to Scotland!" as I got ready for not going down without a fight.  Guy got such a chuckle he actually told them to sit down and if I called him a MF every time I wanted a pint he would supply at no charge.  I spent the rest of the evening yelling out "Hey MF, over here,  and a free pint would slide down the bar".  Owner / bartender even closed the pub to the public at 10 PM and let all of us stay until 2AM drinking and partying American style.  Still have the quid.

Gerrymandering is a process whereby an electoral district is drawn so as to artificially create a majority.  Since the counties on the island pre-date the independence referenda, the counties that have voted to remain in the UK aren't gerrymandered any more than the counties who voted to leave.



That's who has it now.

The people who live on the island both have legitimate governments of their choosing.  Calling for a change in that seems sentimental.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-21598200

Well I can see that, of the two groups I do tend to favor the Catholics because they are the abused underdogs.  But when I started studying The Troubles I was expecting to see that the IRA was the end all problem of everything, and I was really surprised to learn that for the first decade most of the more serious acts of terrorism was all ULA.  After that the IRA took over and became twice as effective (and evil) as the ULA ever dreamed of being.  

Tell that to the disenfranchised 49% of Northern Ireland, and the widows and mothers of those lost on Bloody Sunday.


OK Mechanicuss will stay out of this from here on out. I wish for peace and freedom for Eire.

No it was very real, and in some ways remains so.  Oppression takes many forms and in Northern Ireland when The Troubles started the oppression was social inequality, mostly around public housing and social equality.  Simply put, Protestants got public housing when needed, and Catholics got the shaft.  Other really serious issues were the "one man-one vote" issue.  In all of the UK any adult could vote, but not in Northern Ireland, only a household head could vote.  This was engineered because Catholics were poor and often had to live more than one family per home, so it ensured that all voting was guaranteed to go the Protestant way.  Employment was a huge problem, just like it was for blacks in the South.  Catholics just plain weren't hired by Protestants, and since Protestants were the ruling class, that means there were very few jobs for a Catholic to be had at all, and ensured their social standing never changed.  

It's hard to pin down exactly when The Troubles started but many believe it was when the Catholics started to imitate the US civil rights movement and started peaceful public demonstrations in the MLK fashion.  That enraged the Loyalists and the Ulster Volunteer Force began fire bombing Catholic homes, churches, and businesses and even drove some Catholic families out of their homes for re-settlement by Protestants.  

The Troubles were started by a peaceful movement, the Loyalists are the ones who began the violence.

Cut to a decade later and the IRA took the lead in the violence an elevated the whole thing significantly.  From around 1977 to 1990-ish, the IRA lead a reign of terror unlike any other in the world at the time.  

We here tend to not really understand the beginnings of The Troubles, but we sure heard about it when the IRA took the lead, because violence and terror makes the news, and the IRA became violent in the extreme.  

FWIW, my sympathies are with the Catholic people of Northern Ireland NOT the IRA.  And FWIW I'm a Protestant and vehemently NOT Catholic.


Those Catholics who were seeking a unified Ireland were delusional, it never was going to happen and never will.  The North is British to the core and will secede from Britain or anyone else before unifying with Ireland.

People who don't live in Ireland tend to have that opinion, and sadly the motivation starts as an aesthetic one; why partition a small part of one island?

But there really never has been a unified Ireland (at least never under one government).  And the settlers from Britain trace their roots back over 600 years; so they're as much "Irish" as anyone else has a right to be. And in a free country, they should have a right to self determination.  And they have strongly determined that they are first British, who just happen to live on a sister Ireland. They consider themselves integral to the UK.  Any move to give Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland would be met with fierce sectarian violence far worse than we ever saw during The Troubles.  

To force people to belong to a country they hate, share no values with, and have no identity with is oppression itself.  And what do you think will happen to Protestants once they're under Catholic rule?  Do you think the Catholics will just forgive and forget?  

Okay now THAT's a great story!!!  And shows that nothing beats an Irish pub.  (provided you fit in, otherwise nothing's worse)

Happy to.

The RC population of Northern Ireland is about 40%.  Northern Ireland has had universal adult suffrage for decades, so the idea that RCs are disenfranchised is not accurate.

40% is still a minority vs. protestants, and the disenfranchisement issue goes beyond % of population.  Since the peace agreement disenfranchisement has become vastly better, but it's still a real and pervasive problem over there.  And if not handled correctly, it will result in more violence.  Fortunately the Brits have managed to find a way to walk the tightrope between fairness for the RC's and appeasement of the Prods.  It's not pretty, but it's kinda working.

Those are separate points.  The percentage of the population is unrelated to whether RC are disenfranchised. i.e. not permitted to vote.

As a matter of law, Northern Ireland has had universal adult suffrage for decades, so an assertion that some subgroup of brits in the north lack the franchise is not accurate.

Grew up in one of the five boroughs of NYC (1950's). Every year, the Church (Methodist) would have an Orange Day parade.

Later, in '80s, while going to grad school (Army sent me) @ NYU, spent time at the classic NY Irish bar- McSorleys (bar, ale house?). McSorley's had a big jar at end of bar for "women and orphans defense fund" or something (IRA).

Being mostly of German extraction, knew enough to kept my mouth shut and enjoy the beer.

btw- McSorleys did not have a "ladies room". From more refined times when decent women did not go to bars and most bars would not serve women.

If anybody wants a crash course in this I suggest this book :http://www.amazon.com/Armed-Struggle-History-Richard-English/dp/0195177533/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1454010002&sr=8-1&keywords=richard+english+armed+struggle+the+history+of+the+ira


I did my thesis (and other things) on the IRA and it really is a lot more complicated than an internet forum could even begin to handle.

All the pubs when I was over there would close early by our standards. However if you were in you were there until you left and got locked out. We used to start our crawl with a plan to end at a certain pub to finish out the night.

I guess I didn't catch that you were speaking specifically to voting disenfranchisement, on that point you sir are most certainly correct.  

I think you would be a very interesting to have a couple of beers with.  And yes, there's a WHOLE LOT there to discuss and probably beyond the purview of an internet forum.    

Your book recommendation is a good one, very good.  

Another one I thought was well researched was A Secret History of the IRA (pretty embarrassing to Gerry Adams): http://www.amazon.com/Secret-History-IRA-Ed-Moloney/dp/0393325024

Back to the subject at hand.

Were I a former IRA member, I probably would have kept at least one stashed.  A folding stock AR18 would be a great choice indeed, as well as an AK under-folder.  The under-folding AK is my favorite "concealed" fighting rifles; they really tuck away well (and that's about their only real virtue).  

The Troubles really is a great case of why you don't want to give up your guns.  When it all started one side had all the guns, and things were pretty ugly until both sides had guns.

It is an American virtue that we see nearly everything in terms of good versus bad; it is also an American vice that we see nearly everything in terms of good versus bad. We spend a lot of time looking at the Middle East looking for the good guy in settings where there may not be one.

We also steeped our children in a story of heavily taxed and abused colonists even though the taxes proposed by Parliament were so low that Rand Paul would be embarrassed to suggest them.

Consequently, our instinct in the history of episodes like Irish and Indian independence veers toward the simple black and white narrative of the bad oppressor and the virtuous oppressed even where the story itself has quite a lot of gray to it.


I thought about picking up an AR 180(B?) when they came out just a few years ago, but when I was shopping AR15s were so much more common and roughly the same price, so I never made the leap.

I bought a Sterling AR-180 from a fellow Arfcommer back in November w/ three mags. I ended up trading it to a friend for his FNH PS90 because he'd lusted for one since our high school days in the 80s. I don't want to be an 'Indian Giver'(see my avatar for the joke), but I've been kinda' wanting it back lately. I even wore my DPM while carrying it at a show, and thought about wearing a black balaclava or ski mask to complete the look, but decided that dressing up as a 'Provo' at a military collector's show would be in poor taste.

At least you have a great sense of humor:)

i would imagine there are still a few Thompson's in attics and under floor boards... back in the 20s and 30s when you could still buy a Thompson at your local hardware store. many many many of them were bought and sent over the pond by relitives to family and friends..

It's rumored that in the actual order books at Auto Ordnance is an order from Michael Collins, Irish Republican Army; that would be the 1921 mode.  It was one of the very first orders that Auto Ordnance ever took with the bulk of guns being in the 3 digit range.  

That's an outstanding summation.

For those who immediately say all terrorists are bad, I wonder how they would react if their group of people were targeted for violence by another group and the law decided to do absolutely nothing about it.  How many bombings before they return the favor?  

First, thanks for a courteous discussion.

Return the favor?  The problem with that formulation is that the IRA routinely targeted english people whose only involvement was try trying to tamp down partisan violence.  The favor of protestant violence didn't arise from the english, so it is irrational to try to return it to them..  (Note that when the english really were set on governing the place, RCs and presbyterians were united in their displeasure at laws that disadvantaged them both in favor of Anglicans, who are not protestants in any theological sense.)

I do not attribute the following misunderstanding to you, but I do note amongst the urban population I associate with IA clubs, that they do not understand the differences amongst irish populations and tend to see protestants of irish scottish and english descent in Ireland as "english" because those populations don't fit their nationalist definition of irish identity.  This is essentially the same framework used by serbs to incite violence against croats and bosniaks.

I have had relatives targeted and killed by the IRA.  It never occurred to me to find some innocent irish RCs on holiday to try to even the score; far from serving justice, that retribution would be a fresh injustice.

The IRA project in my lifetime wasn't defensive, but an expression of dissatisfaction by irish nationalists with the result chosen by the people on the island.

I'm not sure why the term "United Kingdom" is used as the various groups all seem to hate each, i.e. Scots, English. Appears to me its a marriage of convenience, certainly not love!

One of my cousins went to Ireland for his honeymoon a couple years ago. He couldn't wait to get out of there. Ripped off or cheated every time they turned around plus the obnoxious local's attitudes. He'll never set foot there again!
Pretty much mirrors how I feel about the Bahamas and the same reasons why.

A niece went to Dublin to study for her PhD. She lasted two months and said screw it, I'm out of here. Did you know you can buy Do-It-Yourself Dentistry kits at the pharmacies? It's because you can't get in to to see a dentist. Most of the old people walk with limps because its a good 2 year wait for a hip replacement.

Never had a desire to go to Ireland so I guess I'm not missing much.