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Posted: 4/25/2015 11:42:50 PM EDT
At the risk of offending the purists, I'm finding this a fun topic to ponder. The Ares SCR is a AR-related lower receiver set up to work with a traditional (non-PG) stock, basically to the AR what the Saiga is to the AK. Compatible with most all AR uppers, uses a FAL-style rat-rail spring slanting down into the stock rather than a buffer. If you kinda squint, it vaguely resembles a number of earlier semi-autos, particularly the BAR and the MAS-49, and vaguely-vaguely the Winchester Light Automatic Rifle which was the experimental design which led to the 5.56 NATO round.
The stock full rifle I find clunky since it's got carbine gas with the short handguard, and the cheezy Magpul handguard; the company quickly changed their policy and started selling the lower separately after tons of AR fans insisted they'd buy the lower but not the full rifle. But overall I like the idea since it'd allow me to have an almost-AR in Washington DC, or even if I move up to NYC. Setting aside politics though since this is a build, "alternate history" question. There have been some cool pics of builds posted, and we have a thread full of them elsewhere on this forum, and this one in particular got me thinking about its pseudo-retro possibilities. Clearly that build wasn't meant as retro, just the wood stock and some of the lines vaguely resemble it. But what if one wanted to make on of these look pseudo-retro? Almost like a notional "missing link" between rifles like the FN-49, MAS-49, and M14, and the M16? Kind of a "pre-Stoner" AR, paradoxical as that is. If anyone has any suggestions for accessories or aesthetic tweaks that would make this rifle look more retro, I'd be curious to hear it, and that might end up having a bearing on my eventual build onto an SCR lower. Thanks for any ideas, and humoring me on this not-very-scholarly pondering. |
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I got nothin' other than so say it sounds like kind of a fun project and can't wait to see what you come up with.
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I'd love to do an all wood stock version. Think it would be fun.
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Is that an 870 20 or 12 ga stock? How would you get the recoil spring to fit in it?
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For a wood buttstock build, this is a longshot but maybe the Israeli handguards can be modified to fit.
http://northridgeinc.com/store/index.cfm/c157/i993 |
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Mine with a retro Weaver... <a href="http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/D_A_Lutz/media/SCR%20Phase%201a_zps30mbn6db.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q759/D_A_Lutz/SCR%20Phase%201a_zps30mbn6db.jpg</a> View Quote Well, well, I thought you were golfing, or plying the waters of the Gulf Stream. |
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I'm definitely looking forward to the "new" DIY retro stock options. I have the SCR and I love it. Just got mine back from Ares, they did some trigger work which did wonders on the creep and pull weight, it is very comparable to the Colt stock weight.
Im going to fish around for an 1100 stock, guys keep this coming! This is a really cool set up. |
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http://makeameme.org/media/created/I-LIKE-YOUR-9jivp0.jpg 1. Ditch the railed forearms, WECSOG a NoDak Spud AR10 handguard to fit. NDS-43, $41 shipped http://www.nodakspud.com/AR%20Lowers.htm 2. Brown plastic forearm, black plastic buttstock? Not a problem - send both the John Thomas and have him make them look like brown bakelite http://retroarmsworks.com/home/about 3. Exempli gratia, Veltro posted these (from http://3gn.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=600703 ) http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff481/velocewhippet/Faux%20Bakelite/DSC_0005_zps9e39ebef.jpg http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff481/velocewhippet/Faux%20Bakelite/DSC_0008_zps0abfb5e3.jpg http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff481/velocewhippet/Faux%20Bakelite/DSC_0009_zps4f9fd6b3.jpg Imagination Fuel http://www.armalite.com/images/large%20images/Rifles/AR10B%20large.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: Setting aside politics though since this is a build, "alternate history" question. But what if one wanted to make on of these look pseudo-retro? Almost like a notional "missing link" between rifles like the FN-49, MAS-49, and M14, and the M16? Kind of a "pre-Stoner" AR, paradoxical as that is. If anyone has any suggestions for accessories or aesthetic tweaks that would make this rifle look more retro, I'd be curious to hear it, and that might end up having a bearing on my eventual build onto an SCR lower.. http://makeameme.org/media/created/I-LIKE-YOUR-9jivp0.jpg 1. Ditch the railed forearms, WECSOG a NoDak Spud AR10 handguard to fit. NDS-43, $41 shipped http://www.nodakspud.com/AR%20Lowers.htm 2. Brown plastic forearm, black plastic buttstock? Not a problem - send both the John Thomas and have him make them look like brown bakelite http://retroarmsworks.com/home/about 3. Exempli gratia, Veltro posted these (from http://3gn.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=600703 ) http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff481/velocewhippet/Faux%20Bakelite/DSC_0005_zps9e39ebef.jpg http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff481/velocewhippet/Faux%20Bakelite/DSC_0008_zps0abfb5e3.jpg http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff481/velocewhippet/Faux%20Bakelite/DSC_0009_zps4f9fd6b3.jpg Imagination Fuel http://www.armalite.com/images/large%20images/Rifles/AR10B%20large.jpg Like the idea of a non-rail frontend. The NDS (Armalite actually) brown HGs would do it for retro looks. But how is that front end assembled? Bet it is not a slipring and spring setup. |
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I like this a lot. I've wanted one of those since I saw the prototype pics years ago. Gotta get one to take with me when I go back to see my folks in NY state. Personally, I prefer conventional stocks over pistol grips for the most part. Not sure why - just an old soul I guess. Oh - and yeah, the FG-42 rocks!
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Might be a perfect use for one of the green mountain "finned" barrels.
http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/gm-m11-finned-barrel-in-5-56mm-with-ext/ |
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Might be a perfect use for one of the green mountain "finned" barrels. http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/gm-m11-finned-barrel-in-5-56mm-with-ext/ View Quote Huh, that is trippy-looking: Is that ribbing for a mechanical reason, or just for style? |
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An upper with a side-charging handle would be perfect for this!
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Well, well, I thought you were golfing, or plying the waters of the Gulf Stream. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Mine with a retro Weaver... <a href="http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/D_A_Lutz/media/SCR%20Phase%201a_zps30mbn6db.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q759/D_A_Lutz/SCR%20Phase%201a_zps30mbn6db.jpg</a> Well, well, I thought you were golfing, or plying the waters of the Gulf Stream. Hey, Mark. I have retired for a second time, but still kicking around. I used your excellent SPR mount when I did ammo selection for the SCR. |
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Neat looking little pop gun.
I live in a free state so I can just build a flat top for far cheaper than this. |
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Ironwood makes triangle wooden handguards
After reading this thread and the other linked one......I feel dirty for kinda wanting one with all wood furniture. |
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Ironwood makes triangle wooden handguards After reading this thread and the other linked one......I feel dirty for kinda wanting one with all wood furniture. View Quote They make nice FAL furniture. I just can't bring myself to go full deciduous on AR furniture yet. Too many other choices. The SCR looks pretty sweet as is. Any way it can actually mount an AR upper? |
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The SCR looks pretty sweet as is. Any way it can actually mount an AR upper? View Quote It'll mount just about any AR-15 upper. People have found a few cases of specific uppers that aren't compatible, like the earlier version of the Gibbz upper didn't quite match up since it lacked the full-auto cutout or some such thing (the SCR re-utilizes that space for part of the action) and I think one or two of the .22 conversion kits have minor incompatibility, but as I understand it the vast majority of regular AR-15 uppers will drop right on to the SCR lower. You have to use the SCR proprietary bolt carrier though; note the photo above showing the shortened bolt carrier and FAL-style recoil spring. But yes, the overall point of it is that it can take just about any AR-15 upper. |
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Could one of the old competition free float(made to look like a non-freefloat) handguard setups be used to allow the installation of a set of modified(NoDak) handguards? EDIT:NoDak uses round endcap for handguards...
Like this one by Rock River: http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/forend-amp-handguard-parts/handguards-amp-rails/ar-15-m16-nm-free-float-barrel-sleeve-prod9943.aspx Bushmaster has one too: Seventh from the top - http://www.bushmaster.com/products.asp?cat=14 It's basically a tube that has a barrel nut on the end with the delta ring assembly, it sleeves/freefloats the barrel while on the front end it has a handguard retainer. ARKAR |
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Neat looking little pop gun. I live in a free state so I can just build a flat top for far cheaper than this. View Quote Well, when it goes to New York for the summer, it sports a barrel without a threaded muzzle or bayonet lug (as you see in my photos) and only 10-round magazines; and that's an inexpensive alternative to a Ruger Ranch Rifle or M1 Carbine without a bayonet lug or folding stock; or simply being "unarmed." When it comes back to Florida (a Free State) it wears a different upper, in fact one of many that are not allowed in NY because of their evil features. And on the road in between NY and Florida, its low profile is not only discreet, but legal all the way as well. That's worth something in my book. |
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I have no idea what I'm talking about here but just throwing it out there since they're wood, cheap and available but how about modding a CETME hand guard to work with it?
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Hey, Mark. I have retired for a second time, but still kicking around. I used your excellent SPR mount when I did ammo selection for the SCR. <a href="http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/D_A_Lutz/media/62%20gr%20Federal%20Match_zpstarij7o5.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q759/D_A_Lutz/62%20gr%20Federal%20Match_zpstarij7o5.jpg</a> View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Mine with a retro Weaver... <a href="http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/D_A_Lutz/media/SCR%20Phase%201a_zps30mbn6db.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q759/D_A_Lutz/SCR%20Phase%201a_zps30mbn6db.jpg</a> Well, well, I thought you were golfing, or plying the waters of the Gulf Stream. Hey, Mark. I have retired for a second time, but still kicking around. I used your excellent SPR mount when I did ammo selection for the SCR. <a href="http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/D_A_Lutz/media/62%20gr%20Federal%20Match_zpstarij7o5.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q759/D_A_Lutz/62%20gr%20Federal%20Match_zpstarij7o5.jpg</a> It looks good coldblue, thanks. Even your camo cloth looks good. Have a good summer. ML |
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The SCR makes me think it is the Chevy El Camino of the AR series rifles - is it a AR15? or a Rifle?
Having said that, I happen to like El Caminos and had no idea these SCR's existed. Guessing there may be one in my future. |
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Midwest sells the SCR lowers. Add the upper of your choice, and you're no longer constrained by free float handguards.
http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/ctgy/ares-defense-rifles |
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Huh, that is trippy-looking: http://i57.tinypic.com/30utizq.jpg Is that ribbing for a mechanical reason, or just for style? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Might be a perfect use for one of the green mountain "finned" barrels. http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/gm-m11-finned-barrel-in-5-56mm-with-ext/ Huh, that is trippy-looking: http://i57.tinypic.com/30utizq.jpg Is that ribbing for a mechanical reason, or just for style? I can't believe someone hasn't chimed in yet. It's ribbed for your shooting pleasure of course |
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Hell I live in a free state and I am still trying to validate buying one. I had no idea that these existed but I think I'm going to have to have one.
ARKAR |
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Looks pretty nice ! Great to see something different. Kinda tired of seeing the SOS.
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Got an answer back from the Ares rep on the other thread: the stock rifle allows you to mount standard handguards with an endcap; that's how it comes with a Magpul MOE. Doesn't matter to me since I'll be buying just a lower and then putting my own upper on it, but since someone asked. Though note the full rifle they sell is with carbine-length gas. So if you wanted to put the Nodak AR-10-style handguards on it, you'd want to get a different upper with rifle gas anyway, and then put the delta-ring and end-cap on it so you could mount standard handguards.
I'm still inclined to go for an SMG-ish ventilated cylindrical forend, that way it's free-float but still can look retro. My only slight hesitation on it, and it's no deal-breaker, is whether any absolutely crazy state like CT or NY would consider a ventilated free-float tube to be a "barrel shroud". Anecdotally I heard something about NYC trying that to keep people from registering even SAFE-legal AR-15s, by claiming that handguards are a "barrel shroud". Pretty transparent ploy. NYC also tried turning down one guy's registration of an SCR a couple months back, iirc basically saying it was essentially an AR even if it lacked "evil" features. But he took it up the chain, got an actual weapons expert at NYPD to officially state that it meets SAFE regulations and therefore can be registered in NYC. I've heard that several members here have registered SCRs in Washington DC, to my knowledge with no hassle. |
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Also, WRT folding front and rear sights adding to the post-WWII backstory the Ordnance Corps and associated designers were ripping off Nazi styles left and right. Who makes folding sights that look like this? http://www.sturmgewehr.com/bhinton/German-WWII_Rifles/FG42_ReproFrontSightRight.jpg http://alternathistory.org.ua/files/users/user2212/fg42_rearsight_wwii.jpg View Quote This looks about right for a retro FG42 style front sight http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/PRI-Flip-Up-Front-Sight-p/pri%2005-0025%20frontsight%20%20barrel.htm |
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I've been poking around a little looking at "retro optics", though it's tricky since Picatinny isn't really retro itself, and a number of the retro optics are set up to go on a carry-handle or similar (the Leapers copies of Colt scopes, etc).
It is a funny thing with the SCR: all the problems people used to have with AR compatibility back decades ago ("I need to get my scope mounted higher", "I need to attach it to a charging handle") are now flip-flopped due to the market for the AR being so prolific, and now it's tricky trying to figure out how to get the best sights and optics onto a rifle which has a Picatinny rail and accepts AR gear, but has roughly the same contours of an old hunting rifle. |
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I've been poking around a little looking at "retro optics", though it's tricky since Picatinny isn't really retro itself, and a number of the retro optics are set up to go on a carry-handle or similar (the Leapers copies of Colt scopes, etc). It is a funny thing with the SCR: all the problems people used to have with AR compatibility back decades ago ("I need to get my scope mounted higher", "I need to attach it to a charging handle") are now flip-flopped due to the market for the AR being so prolific, and now it's tricky trying to figure out how to get the best sights and optics onto a rifle which has a Picatinny rail and accepts AR gear, but has roughly the same contours of an old hunting rifle. View Quote Armeson still makes an OEG, that's retro tactical! |
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This looks about right for a retro FG42 style front sight http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/PRI-Flip-Up-Front-Sight-p/pri%2005-0025%20frontsight%20%20barrel.htm http://cdn3.volusion.com/j4enh.r2en5/v/vspfiles/photos/PRI%2005-0025%20FrontSight%20%20Barrel-2T.jpg?1334734642 View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Also, WRT folding front and rear sights adding to the post-WWII backstory the Ordnance Corps and associated designers were ripping off Nazi styles left and right. Who makes folding sights that look like this? http://www.sturmgewehr.com/bhinton/German-WWII_Rifles/FG42_ReproFrontSightRight.jpg http://alternathistory.org.ua/files/users/user2212/fg42_rearsight_wwii.jpg This looks about right for a retro FG42 style front sight http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/PRI-Flip-Up-Front-Sight-p/pri%2005-0025%20frontsight%20%20barrel.htm http://cdn3.volusion.com/j4enh.r2en5/v/vspfiles/photos/PRI%2005-0025%20FrontSight%20%20Barrel-2T.jpg?1334734642 plus add the scar rear? |
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Also, WRT folding front and rear sights adding to the post-WWII backstory the Ordnance Corps and associated designers were ripping off Nazi styles left and right. Who makes folding sights that look like this? http://www.sturmgewehr.com/bhinton/German-WWII_Rifles/FG42_ReproFrontSightRight.jpg http://alternathistory.org.ua/files/users/user2212/fg42_rearsight_wwii.jpg This looks about right for a retro FG42 style front sight http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/PRI-Flip-Up-Front-Sight-p/pri%2005-0025%20frontsight%20%20barrel.htm http://cdn3.volusion.com/j4enh.r2en5/v/vspfiles/photos/PRI%2005-0025%20FrontSight%20%20Barrel-2T.jpg?1334734642 plus add the scar rear? Totally. Good call. |
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And none of these will be at the correct height for the SCR,
You will either get a "chin weld" or, have to put a ridiculously high monte carlo combed stock on it. Other than using the appropriate (proprietary) height sights available from Ares, your best bet would be a set of Troy Micro's. Wpns Man |
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I like this gun and not to totally derail it, I have been pondering the same sight problem with my Vulcan/AR180B hybrid. <a href="http://s576.photobucket.com/user/BigRix/media/Vulcan%20V18/885724B9-FD4C-48C1-A8FC-BD89BBA6FA58_zpstdcqseqh.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss208/BigRix/Vulcan%20V18/885724B9-FD4C-48C1-A8FC-BD89BBA6FA58_zpstdcqseqh.jpg</a> Using the original AR15 flip up sights you can only get a sight picture with a chin weld. I'll be checking out the different sight options for these ARES guns and see if I can't get something to work. View Quote Check out the Ares picture thread I link in the OP; some folks are having success buying the very low LPA-made sights for the CZ Evo subgun, which are really inexpensive as well. The older Evo sights have a ball front, but the more recent ones have a post front that is probably better for long-range shooting, but iirc folks aren't sure how to get the latter vice the former from CZ. But that other thread is a good place to check on that. Speaking of the AR-18 family, back in the 80s or so there was a sort of "SCR" AR-18, I think made for the Australian market. If the SCR takes off in AWB states in the US, maybe this critter would be worth resurrecting? http://www.forgottenweapons.com/rifles/australian-automatic-arms-sac/ |
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I wouldn't mind picking one of these up to make into a DMR type Rifle. Do they take AR15 20 and 30 round mags? I like the idea of a Monte Carlo Stock, 20 Round Mag, a Harris Bipod, and High Powered Scope.
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Take a look a this post in the SCR Pics thread, I think someone recently built almost exactly what you want: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/672281_ARES_SCR_Pics.html&page=9#i6844896 Anyone good with Photoshop and want to retro-ify this? http://i59.tinypic.com/sorakm.jpg And yes, afaik it takes all AR mags. Though I have heard that P-Mags and the ilk can be a tighter fit since the magwell has closer clearances, since it has less length and thus needs to be a little tighter to diminish mag wobble. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I wouldn't mind picking one of these up to make into a DMR type Rifle. Do they take AR15 20 and 30 round mags? I like the idea of a Monte Carlo Stock, 20 Round Mag, a Harris Bipod, and High Powered Scope. Take a look a this post in the SCR Pics thread, I think someone recently built almost exactly what you want: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/672281_ARES_SCR_Pics.html&page=9#i6844896 Anyone good with Photoshop and want to retro-ify this? http://i59.tinypic.com/sorakm.jpg And yes, afaik it takes all AR mags. Though I have heard that P-Mags and the ilk can be a tighter fit since the magwell has closer clearances, since it has less length and thus needs to be a little tighter to diminish mag wobble. That is almost dead on! Only thing I'd change is the railed Handgaurd. I think a Clark Carbon Fiber free float tube with the Harris Bipod Stud would be the shizzle. |
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I have been working on just that: And this for the front. The rear does not flip, but I'm just trying to figure out the lowest profile iron sight set for my SCR. View Quote I'm liking that, Once you figure out the correct height you could always adapt a single aperture to the bottom portion of the existing AR height 300 meter lollypop you removed. Or, mill it off and thread it for a M249 elevation adjustable aperture? Make an appropriate height Fixed front with ears or, possibly make it adjustable by using an AK/SKS post that has room to travel in the bottom of a 1913 groove on the rail? Wpns Man |
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I'm liking that, Once you figure out the correct height you could always adapt a single aperture to the bottom portion of the existing AR height 300 meter lollypop you removed. Or, mill it off and thread it for a M249 elevation adjustable aperture? Make an appropriate height Fixed front with ears or, possibly make it adjustable by using an AK/SKS post that has room to travel in the bottom of a 1913 groove on the rail? Wpns Man View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I have been working on just that: And this for the front. The rear does not flip, but I'm just trying to figure out the lowest profile iron sight set for my SCR. I'm liking that, Once you figure out the correct height you could always adapt a single aperture to the bottom portion of the existing AR height 300 meter lollypop you removed. Or, mill it off and thread it for a M249 elevation adjustable aperture? Make an appropriate height Fixed front with ears or, possibly make it adjustable by using an AK/SKS post that has room to travel in the bottom of a 1913 groove on the rail? Wpns Man That's a good idea using a SKS post for the front. |
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