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Posted: 4/10/2014 12:06:40 AM EDT
[#1]
That was more photos than expected but you covered everything. All mags are original ArmaLite Costa Mesa and Sterling. The 20rd mags I have and many of the ones I'v seen the anodizing has varied and also the shade of the baseplates, all followers should be black plastic, the alloy follower was swapped out from an AR15 mag. The 20rd Howa mag is totally correct. As for the five 30rd parkerized steel mags the one with the AR18 floorplate is not correct, should be blank like the other four. I have confirmation by original owners that they purchased these unmarked 30rd mags from ArmaLite. The 30rd parkerized steel Sterling England mag is correct along with the two 40rd mags. Tomorrow I'll check mine against these to see if I can see any differences or similarities. Replacing the alloy follower and floorplate with originals or almost exact duplicates should be doable just like the flash hider. I'll check to see what I have for spare parts and if not Pete might have something. Nice catch. Still interested in finding out if the scope is numbered and if you don't mind the number.
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Posted: 4/10/2014 12:13:05 AM EDT
[#2]
Yes the scope has
No 670282 Japan Marked on the bottom, Was this somehow matched to the gun? |
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Posted: 4/10/2014 12:13:23 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Checked the photo of the Costa Mesa AR180... ... correct scope for a Costa Mesa AR180 is the inverted post model with serial number on the base which also indicates year of mfg in Japan, all I'v seen were 1967. Interesting, I never noticed the number on the bottom of the mount before. Thanks for pointing that out Kobren. I found two which are graduated in meters with 670XXX serial range. A third one on a late production Costa Mesa also with inverted post reticle but this one graduated in yards and has a serial range of 710XXX. |
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Posted: 4/10/2014 12:22:47 AM EDT
[#4]
The inverted reticle is an interesting idea CQB - wise. Maybe the precursor to the red dot? I mean in concept. Great info guys.
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Posted: 4/10/2014 12:42:55 AM EDT
[#5]
BigRix you confirmed 100% that it is a numbered metric inverted post scope #670282. I havn't seen anything to indicate the scopes were numbered to the rifle, all the numbered scopes I'v seen are three digits and none went very high at that so this model is pretty rare. Number to me indicates 1967 mfg well prior to AR180 mfg in 69, at least some were originally intended for the AR18 rifles as pictured in the AR18 catalogs/manuals/photos. If I had to take a wild guess as to which two 20rd mags were original to your rifle I would pick the two with light gray floorplates.
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Posted: 4/10/2014 1:06:53 AM EDT
[#6]
AR-10er likewise I have three inverted post scopes same as you, two numbered 67 in metric and the third is in yards and I forget off hand if it is numbered. I doubt ArmaLite sold a scope with every AR180, they were pricey for the time, some may of opted for the Single Point or their choice of a 1" scope in the optional ArmaLite detachable scope mount. Looks to me like four variations of scopes with the inverted post in metric and yards, cross hair in 3x20 and 4x20.
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Posted: 4/10/2014 1:13:54 AM EDT
[#7]
Morg308 ArmaLite offered the Single Point sight mounted in a 1" detachable scope mount for the AR18/180, there's a magazine article confirming, believe it was Gun World back in 1969. Might be as you say the precursor to the red dot in concept.
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Posted: 4/10/2014 1:36:10 AM EDT
[#8]
Kobren, I recall some years back a few of the 4 X 20 scopes came in to the U.S. but at the time I was lead to believe that they were a reproduction which was made for the Air soft AR-18. I do not know this to be the case but it sounds plausible.
I believe that there were four variations exclusive of the 4X. Some of the later scopes made for the Sterling had a fine cross hair and some had a duplex reticle. |
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Posted: 4/10/2014 1:40:50 AM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 4/10/2014 2:14:54 AM EDT
[#10]
That singlepoint appears to be in very good condition.
There were at least four different variations of the single point also. Conical or domed and clear or frosted. |
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Posted: 4/10/2014 3:43:43 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That singlepoint appears to be in very good condition. There were at least four different variations of the single point also. Conical or domed and clear or frosted. and different colors too. red and yellow/green. |
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Posted: 4/10/2014 9:23:43 AM EDT
[#12]
Boywonder, thanks for pointing that out. I forgot to mention the color of the reticle. All the frosted ones I have had an opportunity to examine have had the green reticle. If anyone has encountered a frosted singlepoint with red reticle I would like to hear about it. Likewise if anyone has a singlepoint with a green reticle and clear lense please post it.
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Posted: 4/10/2014 12:35:28 PM EDT
[#13]
The ArmaLite scopes were mfg by the same company, Haco, that mfg the Colt AR15 scopes and other than attachment/bases they seem to duplicate each other thru the years. I had a couple AR180 scopes with the fine crosshairs that I sold a couple years ago, they were probably Sterling vintage. Re the 4x20 ArmaLite scopes they are the real deal and a few AR15 members were lucky enough to purchase them myself included. We were guessing that they were mfg very late in the Sterling run and when ArmaLite discontinued the Sterling AR180 production the order was cancelled. They sat in Japan partially assembled until someone in Japan found them to sell with Japanese replica non firing AR18/180 rifles, not airsoft as I remember. A Japanese American from CA visiting Japan saw the 4x20 scopes and brought back three, sold two on Ebay, kept one for himself The small but dedicated ArmaLite following including AR15 members spotted the 4x20 scopes on Ebay, one member purchased a scope and verified the authenticity. The Ebay seller was contacted to see if he had more, he was able to purchase about a dozen more that were shipped from Japan and we purchased them directly from him, all were NIB with accessories/manual. To the best of my knowledge and others that were much more versed re ArmaLite no one had seen an ArmaLite 4x20 scope prior to this. I doubt that even John McGerdey manager of ArmaLites Timberline Hawk parts/repair service had any in his shop in Costa Mesa or someone would of mentioned it when he was liquidating shop odds and ends some with historical significance in the early 1980s. I figure about fifteen (15) 4x20 scopes made it to the USA. Probably you could find these scopes in Japan but due to complications with trade and language they would be tough to locate/purchase and probably few still NIB. The original AR15.com thread dates back to 7/13/2003, (Tom or Kobren or anyone else what do you think of this AR180 scope.) I believe I located the thread indirectly from Google images but someone might have a better way of finding it.
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Posted: 4/10/2014 2:13:13 PM EDT
[#14]
Interesting. Yes I remember speaking to that gentleman after seeing the 4X on ebay years ago.We spoke at length on the phone and he told me that he only had a few and was going to try to obtain some more.
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Posted: 4/10/2014 4:59:37 PM EDT
[#15]
I still have a copy of the 1983 SWAT Roundup magazine. Chuck Taylor did a lot of side by side reviews of various battle rifles, assault rifles, SMGs and shotguns in that issue. Here's a scan of the AR-180 section:
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Posted: 4/10/2014 5:01:15 PM EDT
[#16]
I've got a bipod that might be correct but whats the story with the open top case?
I will get the manf. number off of it tonight. Would anyone venture a guess what manufacturers of bipods would have been available in 1969-1970? I imagine that there were many made in the 70's by sub contractors and those would not be right. |
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Posted: 4/10/2014 6:28:50 PM EDT
[#17]
BigRix I havn't seen one of those bipod pouches other than in ArmaLite catalogs, that's the real deal. As for a specific bipod mfg my guess ArmaLite purchased whatever was available from USGI suppliers. I'm sure ArmaLite was very familiar with all the suppliers since they designed the same or similar items for the AR15 prior to selling the rights to Colt. I'd be interested to see who the mfg was and if it had any numbers on it, I'd also date it pre 1970, do you have the cleaning rods/tools that went in the pouch?
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Posted: 4/10/2014 6:54:06 PM EDT
[#18]
My father testing a prototype AR18 in the late 60's. I just found out what kind of rifle it was. :-) |
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Posted: 4/10/2014 8:40:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
BigRix I havn't seen one of those bipod pouches other than in ArmaLite catalogs, that's the real deal. As for a specific bipod mfg my guess ArmaLite purchased whatever was available from USGI suppliers. I'm sure ArmaLite was very familiar with all the suppliers since they designed the same or similar items for the AR15 prior to selling the rights to Colt. I'd be interested to see who the mfg was and if it had any numbers on it, I'd also date it pre 1970, do you have the cleaning rods/tools that went in the pouch? I don't have that pouch, that's why I was asking about it. I have a bipod 19204-8448457 Mfr. 26767 I was going to do some research as to whether the Mfr was making them prior to 1970 or not. |
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Posted: 4/10/2014 9:29:14 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've got a bipod that might be correct but whats the story with the open top case? http://www.rgrips.com/en/article/Armalite%20AR18_files/Armalite%20AR18-6.png I will get the manf. number off of it tonight. Would anyone venture a guess what manufacturers of bipods would have been available in 1969-1970? I imagine that there were many made in the 70's by sub contractors and those would not be right. http://www.vietnamgear.com/kit.aspx?kit=49 Second pattern XM3 bipod cover. Probably from the same US GI contractor. They are out there but are rare and $pendy. |
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Posted: 4/10/2014 10:01:48 PM EDT
[#21]
BigRix that's a great photo of your farther, I'm sure your very proud of him and thanks for sharing the photo with us. I can well understand your interest in the AR18/180 and the connection for you to your farther. I wonder if the person with your farther was one of the ArmaLite execs. Along similar lines on a hunch a guy I contacted a gentleman from Costa Mesa CA who was selling a couple ArmaLite AR7 magazines on Ebay, I asked him if he was familiar with ArmaLite when they were in operation, he replied that he was friends with one of the employees and he and a few other shooters on occasion would be invited to shoot/evaluate ArmaLite rifles including the AR18 at the indoor range in the Costa Mesa facility. No doubt your aware of my interest in the 30rd parkerized steel mags with no markings on the floorplate in milspec wrappers, I still havn't gotten to the bottom of that one but hope to some day when I have more time. The numbers on the bipod are probably procurement numbers just like on the milspec packaging. I believe we have to go thru the Smithsonian to have a search done since all the contract records from that period are no longer with DOD.
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Posted: 4/10/2014 10:33:19 PM EDT
[#22]
Not my dad.
Member ahamay79 posted that excellent photo. |
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Posted: 4/10/2014 11:32:40 PM EDT
[#23]
Holy shit that is a nice score.
No way I'd part with it. |
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Posted: 4/11/2014 11:00:54 AM EDT
[#24]
My mistake, apologies to ahamay79, it was getting late in the day.
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Posted: 4/11/2014 11:38:15 AM EDT
[#25]
I checked my AR18 training manual showing the accessories and by the looks of it they could be the same exact items as those found in the TM for the M16 and XM16E1 from June 1964 (changed Nov 1964). My guess is ArmaLite was planning on useing some off the shelf accessories already in production for the M16 if they were awarded a military contract. If you were putting togeather a "retro" AR18/180 these items appear to me to be period correct. I hope the AR15 guys find this of some interest and don't mind this thread taking up too much space here in the retro AR15 section.
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Posted: 4/11/2014 11:45:05 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I checked my AR18 training manual showing the accessories and by the looks of it they could be the same exact items as those found in the TM for the M16 and XM16E1 from June 1964 (changed Nov 1964). My guess is ArmaLite was planning on useing some off the shelf accessories already in production for the M16 if they were awarded a military contract. If you were putting togeather a "retro" AR18/180 these items appear to me to be period correct. I hope the AR15 guys find this of some interest and don't mind this thread taking up too much space here in the retro AR15 section. We certainly don't mind. If anything, it belongs here. I love the Stoner bipod. Very cool stuff, and a great thread. Thanks guys, (especially BigRix.) 
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Posted: 4/11/2014 12:38:53 PM EDT
[#27]
I want to thank Morg308.
I think selling him my only AR-180 mags is what gave my karma a boost and dropped this rifle in my lap. |
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Posted: 4/11/2014 12:44:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I want to thank Morg308. I think selling him my only AR-180 mags is what gave my karma a boost and dropped this rifle in my lap. Listening to you describe the rifle over the phone at the GS it sounded pretty sweet. I'm glad you got it. I had no idea it came with all those mags and a Stoner bipod. Holy Crap. That bipod has got to be worth a pretty penny. Not too many of them around I'm sure. I was considering offering to sell those mags back to you, but when I finally get MY AR-180, what would I use in it? 
BTW, I just want to remind folks just how advanced the AR-18 really was. It is the forerunner of the current piston system ARs, as well as a number of other weapons who basically copied the gas system: The AR70, the British L85 bullpup, the SIG550 series (IIRC) the Daewoo, and some South American stuff - I'm sure someone here can recite all the models. I would love a carbine version but they are all NFA FA. The folding stock could have been better, but a great concept. I prefer the design over the M16A1 of the day frankly. |
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Posted: 4/11/2014 2:31:50 PM EDT
[#29]
Just checked my Costa Mesa 180, it is serial # S062X. Probably made the same week as BigRix' S0645. The scope has the number 670969 on the bottom of the base. It has the inverted post with cross hair and is marked in Meters. My Dad purchased the rifle, scope and five extra magazines when they first came out -1971 or 72 if I remember correctly.
Larry |
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Posted: 4/11/2014 4:10:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Costa Mesa AR-180 production started July 10, 1969 |
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Posted: 4/11/2014 9:32:56 PM EDT
[#31]
Larry nice to know your Costa Mesa is second generation and was kept in the family, the scope serial number is the highest I recall seeing from 1967 and might provide some clue as to the total number for that year for the metric inverted post series. The next series, yards inverted post model is 1971 production from the serial number. If anyone else can contribute even partial serial numbers for their scope we may be able to establish a connection with other items. Here's my three inverted post scope serial #s, metric #670038 and #670938, yards #711223.
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Posted: 4/12/2014 6:40:04 AM EDT
[#32]
Wow! That SWAT magazine showdown was one of my favorite reads, I had it as a teenager and read so many times, it wore out and It was thrown out by my mom when I went to college.
 Glad to see it - Brings back so many memories! thanks for posting.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I still have a copy of the 1983 SWAT Roundup magazine. Chuck Taylor did a lot of side by side reviews of various battle rifles, assault rifles, SMGs and shotguns in that issue. Here's a scan of the AR-180 section: <a href="http://s137.photobucket.com/user/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/media/Firearms/misc/AR-18SWAT1.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/Firearms/misc/AR-18SWAT1.jpg</a> <a href="http://s137.photobucket.com/user/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/media/Firearms/misc/AR-18SWAT2.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/Firearms/misc/AR-18SWAT2.jpg</a> |
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Posted: 4/12/2014 2:58:05 PM EDT
[#33]
Auction for one of the scopes on gunbroker.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=409338727 Inverted post, marked in yards, serial on base starts 71. 
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Posted: 4/16/2014 4:51:00 PM EDT
[#35]
back in the day, a butter knife heated and an orlite mag made for a quick AR180 mag.
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Posted: 4/16/2014 6:59:29 PM EDT
[#36]
Thermold also makes AR180 30rd mags. If you don't have the tools or skill to accurately modify your mags for the AR180 contact Pete Fleis.
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Posted: 4/26/2014 12:26:13 AM EDT
[#38]
I'm working on a trade for a Howa, how hard was it to mod the pmag?
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Posted: 4/26/2014 12:43:30 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm working on a trade for a Howa, how hard was it to mod the pmag? Easy after I screwed the first one up. Get out the dremel. |
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Posted: 4/26/2014 2:13:15 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://pictures.gunauction.com/573/img_3586.jpg Maybe 57Octane might have some suggestions about what fonts to use? Or what typewriter it was composed on? I didn't know off hand but, it was a unique font so, it wasn't too hard to track down. Seems to be a variant of "courier", designed in the 1950's and adapted to the IBM Selectric electric typewriter in 1961. The "courier" font is available digitally but, it's not quite the same as the typed version. This is the closest thing I could find to what you'd get out of the typewriter. http://www.dafont.com/stalker2.font?fpp=100&text |
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Posted: 4/26/2014 8:11:10 AM EDT
[#41]
I know I used to have it and the file may be on my old computer but does anyone have the information to convert M-16 magazines over to AR-18 magazines? The one file I had showed the magazine and gave the dimensions of what metal had to be removed and where to locate the cut for the magazine catch, I printed out a copy years ago when I got my AR-180 and went into work on the weekend and converted something like 12 magazines for my AR-180 and they worked just fine. I remember the toughest part was trying to find something to stick inside the magazine body to provide support on the back side while I hammered the hump down flat without bending the magazine body.
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Posted: 4/26/2014 8:19:03 AM EDT
[#42]
Never mind, I found it with a quick search and made sure to download the picture to my newer computer here. Actually, this came from the ARfcom archives. Anyways, here's the picture I was talking about when it comes to locating the correct place to cut the notch, flatten the hump and removing some of the metal off the back of the magazine:
AR-180 magazine conversion link from the archives ETA: Oddly enough looking back at it, I was the OP on that thread asking this same question back when I got my AR-180. 
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Posted: 4/26/2014 10:10:44 PM EDT
[#43]
My "guess" is the charging handle instructions were as noted typed on a office typewriter and all the sheets that came with the rifles were probably copied from the original on a Xerox 813 or 914. I corresponded with a person who visited the ArmaLite Costa Mesa facility in the early 80s and he was given permission to browse thru their documents in the office file cabinets and used their photo copy machine to copy items of interest some of which he later sent to me. I received a second pattern XM3 bipod pouch yesterday and now I'm on the lookout for the three section cleaning rod. The original AR180 shipping box looks like it is coming togeather and will closely resemble the original contents.
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Posted: 4/27/2014 11:02:50 AM EDT
[#44]
Kinda wish I hadn't sold mine, but things were tough at the time.
I still have four 40 round Sterling mags, two of which reside in my go-to guns. |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 11:33:02 AM EDT
[#45]
Dammit where do people find this stuff lol...that's a really nice looking rifle OP. The only stuff my local GS ever has is a bunch of tacticool AR's, old sporterized rifles or the occasional VZ mislabeled as an "elite" AK.
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Posted: 5/4/2014 10:13:28 PM EDT
[#46]
Got mine home tonight. Let the fun of mag modding begin 
Excited to take it out shooting hopefully soon 
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Posted: 5/4/2014 10:19:17 PM EDT
[#47]
That's a nice one. Seams I read something about the early Howas having serials on the upper.
Anyone know the details of that? |
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Posted: 5/4/2014 10:27:15 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a nice one. Seams I read something about the early Howas having serials on the upper. Anyone know the details of that? I need to do some more research. I did enough to see if the trade I was doing was worth it money wise, but that was it. It still have the bayo lug intact which apparently was omitted from ones after a certain date. |
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Posted: 5/5/2014 4:17:04 PM EDT
[#49]
Colt AR15 that's a nice example, all of the first 1,000 Howa AR180 I'v seen had the serial number on the upper, I believe it was 68 when it was standardized to put the serial number on the lower, that should date the first 1,000 Howa AR180 to being mfg in 1967, they weren't allowed by Japan to be imported till around 73-74. Your lucky to have the bayonet lug intact, seems to be hit and miss in this 1,000 group.
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Posted: 5/5/2014 4:29:03 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Colt AR15 that's a nice example, all of the first 1,000 Howa AR180 I'v seen had the serial number on the upper, I believe it was 68 when it was standardized to put the serial number on the lower, that should date the first 1,000 Howa AR180 to being mfg in 1967, they weren't allowed by Japan to be imported till around 73-74. Your lucky to have the bayonet lug intact, seems to be hit and miss in this 1,000 group. Thanks for the info. Is there a decent history written up online anywhere? |
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