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Posted: 9/20/2015 1:05:14 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Rincon_11 what was the serial number on your gun? So far I have S0141 ? (HHollow) S029X One ear (Kalahnikid) S0??? No ears (Rincon_11) S0968 No ears (isplice) A few more pieces of data and maybe we can see a trend developing. I'm still looking for pics of this area on AR-18's to compare but I have come up empty so far. You can just make out the extra thickness in this picture. To address isplice's question, the extra thickness would not interfere as the space under the overlap is basically empty in the lower. <a href="http://s576.photobucket.com/user/BigRix/media/Armalite%20AR-180/ar-18S-2_zpsada5ef1b.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss208/BigRix/Armalite%20AR-180/ar-18S-2_zpsada5ef1b.jpg</a> S012X. Keep up the good research, I love this thread. I can IM you the last digit if you really want it. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/20/2015 2:49:23 PM EDT
[#4]
S012X No ears (Rincon_11)
S0141 ? (HHollow) S029X One ear (Kalahnikid) S0968 No ears (isplice) Looks like they used differing methods and they did not evolve. Maybe different people at Howa did them in their own way? |
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Posted: 9/20/2015 8:42:57 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Rincon_11 what was the serial number on your gun? So far I have S0141 ? (HHollow) S029X One ear (Kalahnikid) S0??? No ears (Rincon_11) S0968 No ears (isplice) A few more pieces of data and maybe we can see a trend developing. I'm still looking for pics of this area on AR-18's to compare but I have come up empty so far. You can just make out the extra thickness in this picture. To address isplice's question, the extra thickness would not interfere as the space under the overlap is basically empty in the lower. <a href="http://s576.photobucket.com/user/BigRix/media/Armalite%20AR-180/ar-18S-2_zpsada5ef1b.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss208/BigRix/Armalite%20AR-180/ar-18S-2_zpsada5ef1b.jpg</a> This crude drawing is what I was talking about in regards to the overlap: 
Also, the selectors on Howa's are different than Costa Mesa or Sterling AR-180's also. BigRix- I hope you know I'm just busting chops on this overlap, as I was looking at a picture on GunLab of an AR-18, and I can see the overlap you are talking about. I really appreciate what you are doing with these Howa AR-180's! For years and years I have felt like a lone "voice in the wilderness" about Howa's. I've always felt that these AR-180's are the most collectible of the species. Keep up the good work please! |
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Posted: 9/20/2015 9:27:55 PM EDT
[#6]
AR-18 upper from the rear
Pic Removed |
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Posted: 9/20/2015 9:53:37 PM EDT
[#7]
I see said the blind man as he grabbed his hammer and saw!
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Posted: 9/28/2015 8:27:03 PM EDT
[#8]
They are back in the safes, Sorry, they are not for sale. Ron |
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Posted: 9/28/2015 9:56:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have some pictures of 3 of mine. I got them around 1985-1989. I got them in trade and they have been in the safe all this time. I never shot them. All these are Sterlings. I have the mags for them some where in storage. 2 are blued, 1 is parked Sorry about the dust on them. and the quality of the pictures. They are back in the safes, I forgot to get the serial numbers off of them. <a href="http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/captron73/media/2010_11020003_zpsobshnfbx.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m483/captron73/2010_11020003_zpsobshnfbx.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/captron73/media/2010_11020009_zpsqey2e6ox.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m483/captron73/2010_11020009_zpsqey2e6ox.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/captron73/media/2010_11020007_zpsoylajt1z.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m483/captron73/2010_11020007_zpsoylajt1z.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/captron73/media/2010_11020005_zpskd2ojwrl.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m483/captron73/2010_11020005_zpskd2ojwrl.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/captron73/media/2010_11020006_zpsyzuxxqnm.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m483/captron73/2010_11020006_zpsyzuxxqnm.jpg</a> I like it! 
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Posted: 9/29/2015 11:02:59 AM EDT
[#10]
I havn't seen many photos of parkerized finish Sterlings let alone run across one in person.
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Posted: 10/7/2015 1:22:17 AM EDT
[#11]
Well I bought a LNIB Costa Mesa gun (guy took it out for the first time and shot it for the pictures) complete in the original box with original scope even with the original inspection sticker. It will go well with my Stoner 63A. Happy camper right now even though this thread just cost me 2K.
Serial is 369X so it looks to be right at the end of the run. |
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Posted: 10/7/2015 1:34:18 AM EDT
[#12]
It's cost me a lot more.
Your a goner now. |
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Posted: 10/7/2015 1:46:02 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's cost me a lot more. Your a goner now. Well its a lot cheaper than collecting Stoner 63A parts for my gun. My last barrel for my Stoner was 5K. I have been hanging onto a couple of the 40rnd sterling mags for some reason and I guess I now know why. I got sticker shock when I looked on GB at the prices of original 20 rnd mags. Luckily it comes with 3 20 rnd mags in new condition. |
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Posted: 10/22/2015 11:17:23 PM EDT
[#14]
so stupid question time: i just got a sterling. the barrel is stamped .223, so it really is .223? the reason i ask is i know youre supposed to go by barrel markings but it just seems weird to me that its .223.
also, what do the other barrel markings mean? its stamped: some kind of picture, i dont know what its supposed to be NP -223' 1-73' 17.5 tons |
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Posted: 10/24/2015 1:37:33 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so stupid question time: i just got a sterling. the barrel is stamped .223, so it really is .223? the reason i ask is i know youre supposed to go by barrel markings but it just seems weird to me that its .223. also, what do the other barrel markings mean? its stamped: some kind of picture, i dont know what its supposed to be NP -223' 1-73' 17.5 tons look up British proof marks in google |
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Posted: 10/24/2015 8:27:42 AM EDT
[#16]
I have not researched this but my assumption is the it is chambered in 5.56 but was proof tested with a .223 cartridge.
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Posted: 10/24/2015 10:24:00 PM EDT
[#17]
thanks guys. i didnt even think to google proof markings. the pic looked like a crocodile head or an arm holding a sword, it turned out to be the latter.
truthfully, it'd be kinda disappointing if it was .223. i could send the barrel to get reamed to 5.56 spec but im not sure if im keeping this rifle. anyway, ive been reading a lot of 180 stuff these past few weeks, keep up the good work bigrix and others. its a neat rifle and i hate for it to be completely forgotten. |
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Posted: 10/25/2015 10:02:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: thanks guys. i didnt even think to google proof markings. the pic looked like a crocodile head or an arm holding a sword, it turned out to be the latter.
truthfully, it'd be kinda disappointing if it was .223. i could send the barrel to get reamed to 5.56 spec but im not sure if im keeping this rifle. anyway, ive been reading a lot of 180 stuff these past few weeks, keep up the good work bigrix and others. its a neat rifle and i hate for it to be completely forgotten. If it's British proofed for .223", should be safe for 5.56x45mm. Brit proof loads are rather stout. They also don't tend to use the metric designation of a cartridge, & @ the time that was proofed, they may not have seen any difference in the specs. |
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Posted: 10/26/2015 7:40:55 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it's British proofed for .223", should be safe for 5.56x45mm. Brit proof loads are rather stout. They also don't tend to use the metric designation of a cartridge, & @ the time that was proofed, they may not have seen any difference in the specs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: thanks guys. i didnt even think to google proof markings. the pic looked like a crocodile head or an arm holding a sword, it turned out to be the latter.
truthfully, it'd be kinda disappointing if it was .223. i could send the barrel to get reamed to 5.56 spec but im not sure if im keeping this rifle. anyway, ive been reading a lot of 180 stuff these past few weeks, keep up the good work bigrix and others. its a neat rifle and i hate for it to be completely forgotten. If it's British proofed for .223", should be safe for 5.56x45mm. Brit proof loads are rather stout. They also don't tend to use the metric designation of a cartridge, & @ the time that was proofed, they may not have seen any difference in the specs. Exactly. The side of the rifle says it's 5.56. That's not a lie. Neither is the .223 British proof. There just wasn't much of a difference back then. Don't forget that the SP1 was roll marked with .223 for quite a long time and it can do 5.56 just fine. I wish I could find when the "branch" occurred but, 5.56 and .223 were pretty much the same thing for at least a decade or more. |
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Posted: 10/26/2015 11:20:42 AM EDT
[#20]
Riddle check out the Sterling AR-180 listings on Gun Broker that show the barrel markings, all of them are the same as yours, proofed 223.
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Posted: 10/27/2015 11:36:19 AM EDT
[#21]
The AR-18/180 is the failed rifle that no one would let die because anyone with any clue could see the brilliance. Fred Rexer Jr. In USA The Urban Survival Arsenal said: "The AR-18 is the only military rifle in history to fail on three continents without ever having been in a war." And he was right, but that really didn't tell the story did it?
In US military trials, the rifle was mostly a failure due to lack of development, not because it was a bad design. The stock hinge is very poorly designed and failed quite often, and there were many problems with parts breakage. The 180 was never really given much of a chance since it was always operated on very much a shoestring budget. Congress finally passed a law that stated that no weapons could be exported from the US that were not used by the US Military, and that was the final nail in the coffin of the AR-18 (and Stoner M63, and a few others). Still, I think everyone clearly saw the usefulness of the design, since most every modern military rifle design in the past 20 years shows some sort of AR-18 influence, mostly in the gas systems. I have owned a few AR-180’s and they have always been excellent weapons in my hands. Once you learn to properly modify the M16 magazine for use in the 180, the rifle will just hum right along (I never had more than one or two AR-180 mags). |
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Posted: 10/31/2015 1:32:09 PM EDT
[#22]
More differences are coming to light for me on the Early Howa AR-180's.
I finally got one!!!!!! 
I put a quick article up here but I'm curious who else has this feature on their bolt carrier? An extra cutout on the right side. 
Shown with my early Costa Mesa 
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Posted: 10/31/2015 1:55:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Mine does not have that.
What number ~ did you get?
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Posted: 10/31/2015 2:01:59 PM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 10/31/2015 2:05:16 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<a href="http://s576.photobucket.com/user/BigRix/media/HOWA%20Early%20AR-180/94745ABB-F34F-452A-AA67-DFF3B3C0E142_zpsh7zizjq6.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss208/BigRix/HOWA%20Early%20AR-180/94745ABB-F34F-452A-AA67-DFF3B3C0E142_zpsh7zizjq6.jpg</a> So now I need scope number 670516 Closest I have is 670664 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Mine does not have that. What number ~ did you get? <a href="http://s576.photobucket.com/user/BigRix/media/HOWA%20Early%20AR-180/94745ABB-F34F-452A-AA67-DFF3B3C0E142_zpsh7zizjq6.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss208/BigRix/HOWA%20Early%20AR-180/94745ABB-F34F-452A-AA67-DFF3B3C0E142_zpsh7zizjq6.jpg</a> So now I need scope number 670516 Closest I have is 670664 Nice
Youre building a hell of a collection
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Posted: 10/31/2015 2:15:31 PM EDT
[#26]
Article from 1972 book about Law Enforcement weapons
I think you should be able to right click - view image to see a larger version. 
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Posted: 11/1/2015 12:01:00 PM EDT
[#27]
BigRix after seeing your posting re adding an early Howa AR-180 I had to check my early Howa AR-180 that is from the high 500 range, my bolt carrier is identical to your early Howa bolt carrier also having the same groove. I also checked my 11,000 range Howa AR-180 and my Costa Mesa and those two bolt carriers are identical to your Costa Mesa AR-180 bolt carrier and neither one have the added groove. You have a sharp eye and will probably find some other differences between the different models/mfgs. It might not be of any major consequence but I'v noticed that some of the very early Howa AR-180 1,000 series also had the FLASH HIDER numbered, I roughly estimate it was done possibly up to about #550, my guess is this feature ended when production was interrupted when Japan forbid the export of the rifles in 1967 and the FLASH HIDER numbering was dropped when production and assembly was restarted in 1973. Also a small number of early Howa snuck through without having the bayonet lug totally neutered, some had tabs inserted that could be removed to make mounting a bayonet functional again. Rick your early Howa AR-180 is a fine addition to your very respectable ArmaLite collection and its "character" is an added bonus. I'm sure it will be a joy to shoot, please give us an update when you find the time from your busy schedule to get it to the range. I'd check with Pete Fleis, he might have a few of the sling swivels left in his diminishing stock of parts. A vintage green M1 sling shouldn't be too difficult to come by along with a couple Howa 20rd magazines.
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Posted: 11/1/2015 12:03:01 PM EDT
[#28]
Nice pics, Thanks.
I think I see a similar cut out on some of those AR-18 bolt carriers. Maybe it was an early thing and it was found to be unnecessary so it was left out on the later guns. Or maybe it was an AR-18 thing? The research continues. |
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Posted: 11/1/2015 12:05:30 PM EDT
[#29]
Hey Rich, where is the barrel numbering you are referring to?
My flash hider is numbered but I did not notice the barrel. |
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Posted: 11/1/2015 12:42:16 PM EDT
[#30]
Rick I stand corrected, I intended to say some of the early 1,000 Howa AR-180 had the FLASH HIDER numbered, not the barrel, the same number as found on the upper. My early Howa is about 70 numbers higher than yours and the flash hider is NOT numbered. The FLASH HIDER numbering did go into the low and possibly to the mid 500 serial numbered Howa rifles. Rick if you could post a photo of your numbered Howa FLASH HIDER I'm sure it would be of interest. I edited my prior post to reflect the numbering of the early Howa flash hiders possibly being done some where around to #550. If anyone can add additional FLASH HIDER numbers this info can be adjusted to be more accurate.
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Posted: 11/1/2015 1:51:21 PM EDT
[#32]
Rick I rechecked my high 500 numbered Howa that does NOT have the serial number on the flash hider and it is the exact same style flash hider as my 11,000 numbered Howa, my Costa Mesa AR-180 and your Costa Mesa. Will be interesting to see if the numbered flash hiders are similar or the same as the ones used on the Costa Mesa AR-18, I'm guessing the unnumbered flash hiders were probably a design change that made mfg much simpler.
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Posted: 11/1/2015 2:00:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Rich, is the barrel contour like the Costa Mesa and does it have a lock nut?
I found a picture in the AR-18 operator's manual that has a bolt carrier just like my Howa. Tracking down when they made the switch will take some time. I'm hopeful that some prints will surface to pin it down further. |
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Posted: 11/1/2015 2:21:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Rick the barrel contour on my early Howa is slightly different from my Costa Mesa where it abuts the locking nut. I'll also have to dig out my AR-18 manual and other material to see if anything else matches up with the early Howa. As soon as I can I'll send you photos of the flash hiders and barrels of my Howa and Costa Mesa AR-180.
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Posted: 11/1/2015 3:34:27 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
BigRix after seeing your posting re adding an early Howa AR-180 I had to check my early Howa AR-180 that is from the high 500 range, my bolt carrier is identical to your early Howa bolt carrier also having the same groove. I also checked my 11,000 range Howa AR-180 and my Costa Mesa and those two bolt carriers are identical to your Costa Mesa AR-180 bolt carrier and neither one have the added groove. You have a sharp eye and will probably find some other differences between the different models/mfgs. It might not be of any major consequence but I'v noticed that some of the very early Howa AR-180 1,000 series also had the FLASH HIDER numbered, I roughly estimate it was done possibly up to about #550, my guess is this feature ended when production was interrupted when Japan forbid the export of the rifles in 1967 and the FLASH HIDER numbering was dropped when production and assembly was restarted in 1973. Also a small number of early Howa snuck through without having the bayonet lug totally neutered, some had tabs inserted that could be removed to make mounting a bayonet functional again. Rick your early Howa AR-180 is a fine addition to your very respectable ArmaLite collection and its "character" is an added bonus. I'm sure it will be a joy to shoot, please give us an update when you find the time from your busy schedule to get it to the range. I'd check with Pete Fleis, he might have a few of the sling swivels left in his diminishing stock of parts. A vintage green M1 sling shouldn't be too difficult to come by along with a couple Howa 20rd magazines. #'s 968 and 821 have serialized flash hiders. FYI |
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Posted: 11/1/2015 5:54:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Isplice thanks for the update re the two Howa flash hider numbers (8XX & 9XX), that throws any idea of consistency to the wind, far as I can tell my early Howa flash hider is original to the rifle and has not been swapped out.
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Posted: 11/1/2015 9:07:33 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isplice thanks for the update re the two Howa flash hider numbers (8XX & 9XX), that throws any idea of consistency to the wind, far as I can tell my early Howa flash hider is original to the rifle and has not been swapped out. You are very welcome! From the pictures I have saved, the following Howa's have flash hiders that look exactly like the serialized ones, ie same type, have lock washer, then flat washer. Same barrel profile too. Can't tell if the hiders are serialized though. They are: 25X, 29X, 3XX, 34X, 51X, 61X and of course 8XX and 9XX. Also I have pics of 10X, but someone swapped out the orig. flash hider for an A1 style. |
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Posted: 11/1/2015 9:24:42 PM EDT
[#39]
More flash hider observations! If looking from the rear of the rifle, and the upper open area of the hider at 12 o'clock, on #'s 34X and 82X, the flat with the serial number is at 6 o'clock, on #51X the flat with s/n is at 9 o'clock, and on 96X the flat with s/n is at 3 o'clock.
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Posted: 11/20/2015 11:41:28 PM EDT
[#40]
I picked up a nice three digit howa (starting with a 2) with correct howa marked mag, matching serial numbered flash hider, and scope & mount with inverted scope reticle that us graduated in meters. The bolt has the extra cuts as shown on other early howas. My scope mount us numbered 670319. It dies not have a forward locking latch, and it looks like it never did. There is no place to hook on a "C" clip. It also dies not look broken or modified. Does anyone else have an early scope mount without a locking latch? Thanks.
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Posted: 11/21/2015 9:26:10 AM EDT
[#41]
OK, so, after reading everything I could find on the AR180, it seems that I have my scopes and mounts on the wrong weapons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my early inverted reticle scope graduated in meters on a 67 dated mount should ACTUALLY go on my early Costa Mesa, as the early scopes were imported to be sold with the Costa Mesas. My inverted reticle scope graduated in yards with a 71 dated mount would be more correct with my early three digit Howa, since the early Howas were imported about 1974.
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Posted: 11/21/2015 9:31:48 AM EDT
[#42]
Well I guess that depends on perspective. The early scopes were actually made for the Howa rifles in 67 but were not actually sold till 69 when the Costa Mesa rifles became available for sale in the US.
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Posted: 11/21/2015 9:37:30 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well I guess that depends on perspective. The early scopes were actually made for the Howa rifles in 67 but were not actually sold till 69 when the Costa Mesa rifles became available for sale in the US. I agree, but by the time the early Howas were imported into the US, the early scopes were probably long gone, having been sold with the early Costa Mesas. |
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Posted: 11/21/2015 10:40:44 AM EDT
[#45]
I have mounts serial numbered 629 & 313, if they happen to match anyone's rifles. I am looking for mount number 257.
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Posted: 11/21/2015 10:45:27 AM EDT
[#46]
Does anyone make reproduction scope covers for the Armalite scope?
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Posted: 11/21/2015 10:55:24 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does anyone make reproduction scope covers for the Armalite scope? I asked this question two weeks ago in a separate thread a fellow member( kobrien) has contacted the original manufacturer in Japan to see if they would do another run so far no word back jack |
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Posted: 11/21/2015 11:16:07 AM EDT
[#48]
Does anyone have photos of the Armalite 4 X 20 scope? The pictures in the old threads no longer exist. Thanks. When will someone write the definitive book on the AR180 and its accessories? It could be titled "The OTHER Black Rifle" lol. Are there ANY books available about the AR180? I have not been able to find any.
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Posted: 11/21/2015 11:35:00 AM EDT
[#49]
M16indiana re your early Hakko scope mfg in '67 without the "latch" I have never seen another one like yours. I would write it off to another AR-180 inconsistency, my "guess" is they were experimenting with the scope mount design attempting to simplify it. I'm guessing this inconsistency is similar to my early Howa with a later design flash hider, it might of been randomly pulled from the rifle racks to test the new design flash hider. I agree with Rick that the '67 numbered first 1,000 scopes would of been sold from '69-'73 with the Costa Mesa AR18/180 rifles and the '71 numbered scopes, no more than 2,000 and probably less, would of been sold with the Howa AR-180 rifles when they were imported in '74. Also possible there was some overlap between the Costa Mesa and Howa. I havn't heard back from Japan Optics re either locating original scope covers or mfg new scope covers for the ArmaLite Hakko scopes. From the photos I'v seen of the USA mfg Colt Realist scopes the Realist scope covers look identical to the Hakko scope covers and my guess is the Realist scope covers were mfg in the USA. I'm sure reproduction scope covers wouldn't be that difficult to make, I'll try contacting a holster maker to see if it's feasible since there are many missing or damaged scope covers for both the ArmaLite and Colt Hakko scopes.
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Posted: 11/21/2015 11:58:52 AM EDT
[#50]
M16indiana re photos of the ArmaLite 4x20 scopes BigRix should have some. As of today BigRix blog AR180S.COM is the best source of info re the AR-18/180 rifles. Rick is very busy with his occupation and family but if anyone is capable of writing "The Other Black Rifle" Rick would be the one to do it when he gets the time. With the contributions of info from AR-15, AR180S members and with new documents coming to light a very accurate picture of the rifles and accessories can be shared with the firearms community.
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