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Posted: 9/17/2013 12:35:27 PM EDT
I neglected to save the pictures someone posted recently of the proto midlength rifle.
It is the rifle with an oddball size gas system and I think it had the bayonet lug moved to the back of the FSB to account for the shorter barrel. Any and all pics would be appreciated. I have an idea! 
Thank you in advance. 
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Posted: 9/17/2013 12:48:07 PM EDT
[#1]
Was it one of the prototype AR10's?
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Posted: 9/17/2013 12:57:42 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Was it one of the prototype AR10's? http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j422/LRRPF52/FinnishArmalite762x39_zps0cc92a02.jpg Im interested in the rifle on the left! 
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Posted: 9/17/2013 1:17:16 PM EDT
[#3]
The AR-10 on the left side,is on the 7.62×39mm (AK-47 Soviet) used on the Valmet,the rifle was made for Finland..."a special 7.62x39mm caliber variant of the Sudanese AR-10 was produced in very small numbers for evaluation by Finland and Germany"...,but ths one s a carbine... |
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Posted: 9/17/2013 1:42:52 PM EDT
[#4]
No it was a Colt M16 model.
I don't remember if it had partial/full fence or anything like that but it had triangle handguards and a 14"ish barrel with a gas system somewhere between carbine and rifle length. Cool pic though.
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Posted: 9/17/2013 1:57:44 PM EDT
[#5]
Ive made one before by using the ARMS #41 bayonet lug mount and it worked quite well.
It involved cutting the part and welding it to the FSB. Good enough for my standards, but knowing you guys would probably rather have it cast as a whole peice rather than me welding them up. If I find pictures I will show them.. I sold that FSB some time ago. |
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Posted: 9/17/2013 2:00:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j422/LRRPF52/FinnishArmalite762x39_zps0cc92a02.jpg The AR-10 on the left side,is on the 7.62×39mm (AK-47 Soviet) used on the Valmet,the rifle was made for Finland..."a special 7.62x39mm caliber variant of the Sudanese AR-10 was produced in very small numbers for evaluation by Finland and Germany"...,but ths one s a carbine... I want one |
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Posted: 9/17/2013 2:08:02 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive made one before by using the ARMS #41 bayonet lug mount and it worked quite well. It involved cutting the part and welding it to the FSB. Good enough for my standards, but knowing you guys would probably rather have it cast as a whole peice rather than me welding them up. If I find pictures I will show them.. I sold that FSB some time ago. I was more interested in the rifle itself but I DID think of chopping and old FSB and welding it on a donor. I would LOVE to see those pictures jhud! I have NO issues with a little slag!
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Posted: 9/17/2013 2:21:13 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
. I would LOVE to see those pictures jhud! I have NO issues with a little slag! http://swfa.com/ARMS-41-Bayonet-Lug-P40336.aspx visit that page. Dont do anything to the FSB but for shaving the lug off it. You take the ARMS part, shorten that peice, put it in place. Weld over the hole on both sides and fill the gaps around the bottom and side.. smooth it out and refinish. |
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Posted: 9/17/2013 3:00:02 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Quoted:
. I would LOVE to see those pictures jhud! I have NO issues with a little slag! http://swfa.com/ARMS-41-Bayonet-Lug-P40336.aspx visit that page. Dont do anything to the FSB but for shaving the lug off it. You take the ARMS part, shorten that peice, put it in place. Weld over the hole on both sides and fill the gaps around the bottom and side.. smooth it out and refinish. Very cool! Looks like it would be a different profile than if you used a sacrificial FSB to cut the lug off? I honestly can't figure out what that lug is for or how it would mount to any rifle?
Here's the deal. I bought a 16" Mid Length Light Weight Barrel from Del-Ton and since was cheap AND since shorter is better, I am thinking of chopping and pinning a A1 FH making the OAL 16.25". With that length I can mount a bayonet using the standard position lug except the ring will be flush with the very front of the FH instead of on the first ring with the wrench flats. Now I KNOW that's not the sturdiest arrangement but I certainly HOPE there are no imminent bayonet charges in my future! I just like the look of a can opener hanging on the end of a rifle! I want to see the pictures again to see the other details of the rifle. I spent the weekend cutting down a set of A1 triangle guards to mid length! I'm not super happy with them but they look like a long 607 set.
Pictures soon I hope. ETA I looked up ARMS41B bayonet lug and figured out how it works. I am not tacticool enough to think like that. |
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Posted: 9/17/2013 3:02:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No it was a Colt M16 model. I don't remember if it had partial/full fence or anything like that but it had triangle handguards and a 14"ish barrel with a gas system somewhere between carbine and rifle length. Yoda, you seek Yoda. well in case you don't I think this is what you seek. 
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Posted: 9/17/2013 3:06:19 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yoda, you seek Yoda. well in case you don't I think this is what you seek. http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/m/dmshannon/little-middy.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No it was a Colt M16 model. I don't remember if it had partial/full fence or anything like that but it had triangle handguards and a 14"ish barrel with a gas system somewhere between carbine and rifle length. Yoda, you seek Yoda. well in case you don't I think this is what you seek. http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/m/dmshannon/little-middy.jpg That's the beast! Thanks Carbine Kid! 
Saved the day the young Padawan has. 
ETA a peak of the handguards. 
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Posted: 9/17/2013 4:03:35 PM EDT
[#12]
I like that barrel.. Very nice.
Ive done them like that. Mine had a lip (from the trimmed part) epoxied to the end that fit under the TSI rear cap. Its a heck of a lot easy than modding the front to fit the small cap. |
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Posted: 9/17/2013 4:32:46 PM EDT
[#13]
I've been wanting to build a replica of this for quite some time.
I've got a couple ideas, but I haven't got the technical skill or tools to undertake it. 
Nor the cash, really. 
~Augee |
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Posted: 9/17/2013 6:53:19 PM EDT
[#14]
I would like to try it if someone has the skills to make the rear hand guard cap this would be easy with the DD lw mid length barrel.
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Posted: 9/18/2013 2:29:35 AM EDT
[#15]
I did the same thing jhud did.
I got a set of cut down carbine handguards with front and rear caps a long time ago off EE so I stole the rear cap. After I cut the back ends of the guards (making sure to keep the vent holes full size) I used scraps and J&B Welded them inside the rear of the guards then filed them until the rear cap fit. It was a bit long to be able to install on an installed barrel so I ground down the factory lip that fits under the front handguard cap and then used a file to cut a new lip. This shortened them up enough to be able to install them on a mounted barrel but they're still tight as a gnat's ass. Truth be known I haven't tried to take them off yet!
I want to get another set and try again because I'm not perfectly happy with these. Now that I've done one I know what I did wrong! 
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Posted: 9/18/2013 6:45:26 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would like to try it if someone has the skills to make the rear hand guard cap this would be easy with the DD lw mid length barrel. +1. I have wanted to try this build for a long time but could not fab up that piece. I think the lower is a slabside 602 lower. |
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Posted: 9/18/2013 7:32:01 AM EDT
[#17]
Another pic:
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Posted: 9/18/2013 7:35:06 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote Historyinteresting, do you know what publication that was from? |
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Posted: 9/18/2013 8:19:18 AM EDT
[#19]
I've got a "semi-nice" rear handguard cap for a middy. It's a prototype that I was working on for an esteemed retro member when the darn cnc did what I told it to do instead of what I wanted it to do. It has a small "ah chit" machined into it that could easily be tig'd up. That would render it ineligible (sp) for parkerizing, but it could be painted/Norrell'd or otherwise coated. It is similer to the one's I've made for the 607, only larger to fit midlength handguards.
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Posted: 9/18/2013 12:00:51 PM EDT
[#20]
Any info out there on the roll mark for this rifle? That picture lists the selector markings and the manufacturer marking look like a regular Colt. Wondering about the model designation. Maybe Braceman can do a "Mini XM16E1" engraving!
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Posted: 9/18/2013 3:08:19 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
interesting, do you know what publication that was from? It's from "The Black Rifle". If I remember the old thread about this rifle; it was decided upon that the gas system was between mid-length and rifle length. Someone suggested that it was closer to Knight's intermediate length. A unique build, that's for sure.
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Posted: 9/18/2013 3:27:22 PM EDT
[#22]
I am going to end up building this gun now I am already making the list of parts needed it doesn't look like a dimpled selector but the FH looks like a duck bill I am also going to take a stab and guess that the carrier would be chrome. BTW you guys are a bad influence on me
ETA no bayonet lug as well |
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Posted: 9/18/2013 3:41:54 PM EDT
[#23]
I've sent inquiries to KAC to try to get access to this rifle in the museum to make measurements on the barrel and shoot some photos. But never got an answer
There's also the somewhat-controversial photo of an SF team in Vietnam with what appears to be a version of that rifle configuration. See: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/538125_.html To my eye, the rifle in that pic has the same barrel configuration as the museum prototype, but with a different handguard and birdcage FS. Quoted:
If I remember the old thread about this rifle; it was decided upon that the gas system was between mid-length and rifle length. Someone suggested that it was closer to Knight's intermediate length. A unique build, that's for sure. If you crunch the numbers and measurements, the gas system would probably be unique, correct. I figured it all out at one point, by taking the bayonet lug to flash suppressor dimension from a rifle barrel then moving the lug to the rear ring of the FSB while maintaining the same bayonet mounting geometry. |
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Posted: 9/18/2013 3:46:20 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am going to end up building this gun now I am already making the list of parts needed it doesn't look like a dimpled selector but the FH looks like a duck bill I am also going to take a stab and guess that the carrier would be chrome. BTW you guys are a bad influence on me ETA no bayonet lug as well It has a bayonet lug on the rear leg of the FSB! Shit just got REAL!
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Posted: 9/18/2013 7:34:48 PM EDT
[#25]
I wish NDS would do another run of the middy triangles they used to have. I missed out on them last time.
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Posted: 9/18/2013 8:46:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wish NDS would do another run of the middy triangles they used to have. I missed out on them last time. Wish someone would make new production triangles, so could chop away at some without remorse. |
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Posted: 9/18/2013 10:16:02 PM EDT
[#27]
I would love to get solid dimensions on the gas system and barrel length of that carbine, without implying anything (seriously, I'm not), it's interesting that it appears to be so close to the Knight's Armament SR15 gas system length, and it happens to reside in the Knight's Armament collection.
That being said, if I were trying to build a clone of one, for a variety of reasons, I don't think I would try to replicate the gas system currently on the rifle. IMHO, a 16" Eagle Arms style midlength barrel could be used. With the fixed FSB, we already know it's the right length to mount a bayonet, plus, no even residual concerns about SBRing. If the "original" fixed FSB were left in place, including the bayonet lug, with the taper pins, and simply "shaved down," you could then weld part of another FSB to the forward "leg" of the original FSB with the bayonet lug in place, and pin the front end of the "dummy" FSB to the barrel forward. You would be able to replicate the appearance of a fixed FSB further forward than modern midlengths, retain the currently more standard gas tube/system along with the bayonet lug, which would still be in the right place, but appear to be mounted to the rear leg of the FSB, with the rest of the original FSB hidden under the handguards. Kind of like a compressed "dissapator" setup. Other than the rear handguard cap, you could pretty much do it without too much trouble if you could figure the barrel out, then build the remainder of the rifle as if it were a "standard" 602 or 604 assembly. Anyone with some machining and welding abilities game to give it a try?
~Augee |
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Posted: 9/18/2013 10:45:12 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would love to get solid dimensions on the gas system and barrel length of that carbine, without implying anything (seriously, I'm not), it's interesting that it appears to be so close to the Knight's Armament SR15 gas system length, and it happens to reside in the Knight's Armament collection. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would love to get solid dimensions on the gas system and barrel length of that carbine, without implying anything (seriously, I'm not), it's interesting that it appears to be so close to the Knight's Armament SR15 gas system length, and it happens to reside in the Knight's Armament collection. If they'd let me in I'd document everything on it. Best I can tell, the length is NOT the same as the current KAC E3 rifles. The dimensions that have been mentioned for the SR15 E3s would not work correctly for the bayonet mounting... it's not terribly far off, but wouldn't work, at least when I sat down and figured it all out a while back (can't find my notes or sketches  ).
That being said, if I were trying to build a clone of one, for a variety of reasons, I don't think I would try to replicate the gas system currently on the rifle. Custom gas tubes aren't really a big deal. The handguards would be custom either way. Maybe it's just me, but that aspect of the rifle would be one of the more interesting parts of a reproduction. I'm even more fascinated if there could be any information or additional photos on the rifle (as well as any others) in the photo from VN. It's obviously a later vintage than the rifle in the Knight's museum. |
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Posted: 9/18/2013 11:09:39 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If they'd let me in I'd document everything on it. Best I can tell, the length is NOT the same as the current KAC E3 rifles. The dimensions that have been mentioned for the SR15 E3s would not work correctly for the bayonet mounting... it's not terribly far off, but wouldn't work, at least when I sat down and figured it all out a while back (can't find my notes or sketches ).
Custom gas tubes aren't really a big deal. The handguards would be custom either way. Maybe it's just me, but that aspect of the rifle would be one of the more interesting parts of a reproduction. I'm even more fascinated if there could be any information or additional photos on the rifle (as well as any others) in the photo from VN. It's obviously a later vintage than the rifle in the Knight's museum. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I would love to get solid dimensions on the gas system and barrel length of that carbine, without implying anything (seriously, I'm not), it's interesting that it appears to be so close to the Knight's Armament SR15 gas system length, and it happens to reside in the Knight's Armament collection. If they'd let me in I'd document everything on it. Best I can tell, the length is NOT the same as the current KAC E3 rifles. The dimensions that have been mentioned for the SR15 E3s would not work correctly for the bayonet mounting... it's not terribly far off, but wouldn't work, at least when I sat down and figured it all out a while back (can't find my notes or sketches ).
That being said, if I were trying to build a clone of one, for a variety of reasons, I don't think I would try to replicate the gas system currently on the rifle. Custom gas tubes aren't really a big deal. The handguards would be custom either way. Maybe it's just me, but that aspect of the rifle would be one of the more interesting parts of a reproduction. I'm even more fascinated if there could be any information or additional photos on the rifle (as well as any others) in the photo from VN. It's obviously a later vintage than the rifle in the Knight's museum. Sorry, I wasn't saying that the length was exactly the same as the E3 system, but I wonder if it might've been taken out of mothballs and played with and maybe used for some inspiration. Either way, like I said, I'm implying anything, I'm just curious if anyone took it as any inspiration in the course of developing the E3, or even noticed the similarities. The reason I wouldn't bother with the custom gas system is not the custom gas tube, but the need to secure a custom barrel with the gas port drilled in the right place, then the possibility of having to fiddle around with the gas port dimension to get it to work properly (if someone was able to inspect, disassemble and measure the original, it would be a different matter, I'm talking about building a "shooter" repro from the limited photos we have). Modifying a standard 16" middy would allow you to use off the shelf parts without having to secure any custom barrel parts, just modify readily available ones. In the end, my interest in this particular prototype is as a shooter that's also a representation of a rare offshoot of the M16's development. Not that I discourage anyone else from trying it, it's just beyond what I would be interested in with it. Regarding the photograph - I'm not convinced that it's not a trick of lenses and angles, and that it's the same type of rifle as this prototype. I'd consider it more likely to be an in-country modification, unrelated to the tool-room prototypes, than an example of one of them. ~Augee |
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Posted: 9/19/2013 2:05:15 AM EDT
[#30]
Who has the "in country" picture?
That I'd like to see. |
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Posted: 9/19/2013 8:48:11 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who has the "in country" picture?
That I'd like to see. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who has the "in country" picture?
That I'd like to see. It's the link I posted: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/538125_.html Quoted:
Regarding the photograph - I'm not convinced that it's not a trick of lenses and angles, and that it's the same type of rifle as this prototype. I hear you... I'm pretty familiar with various lenses and optical effects, and have considered that it's just an 11.5" XM177 with the moderator replaced with a birdcage, and no bayonet lug, that looks out of proportion due to the effect of the wide angle lens. Comparing the sizes of his hands and other elements of the photo though I tend toward thinking it's possible that it is not an XM177. It would be helpful if the men next to him had their rifles more visible as comparison. Something else to contemplate though, is that smaller stature non-US personnel like who's holding that rifle would be the target market for that prototypical 16" carbine. If they had sent a few out for demonstration or field testing, that's probably who they would have sent it to. The prototype in the museum does exist for sure, and if they made one, it's certainly possible they made 10. If I ever get a reproduction made I'll stage a reenactment photo
but I wonder if it might've been taken out of mothballs and played with and maybe used for some inspiration. Either way, like I said, I'm implying anything, I'm just curious if anyone took it as any inspiration in the course of developing the E3, or even noticed the similarities. Can't say, but it was posted a long time ago that the E3 length was originally intended for a 16" barrel 7.62x51 SR25, and was just carried over onto the 16" 5.56 rifles. |
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Posted: 9/19/2013 8:56:06 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wish someone would make new production triangles, so could chop away at some without remorse. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I wish NDS would do another run of the middy triangles they used to have. I missed out on them last time. Wish someone would make new production triangles, so could chop away at some without remorse. There are so many h/gs in the market that it would be outright silly. to mfg them. If someone started to make them, the cost is going to be far more than the cost of the old stock. |
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Posted: 9/19/2013 12:32:58 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are so many h/gs in the market that it would be outright silly. to mfg them. If someone started to make them, the cost is going to be far more than the cost of the old stock. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I wish NDS would do another run of the middy triangles they used to have. I missed out on them last time. Wish someone would make new production triangles, so could chop away at some without remorse. There are so many h/gs in the market that it would be outright silly. to mfg them. If someone started to make them, the cost is going to be far more than the cost of the old stock. Now if they made them with funky brown swirls there might be a market!
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Posted: 9/19/2013 12:43:12 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now if they made them with funky brown swirls there might be a market!
only with retro dorks like us. everyone else will call them blems
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Posted: 9/29/2013 6:18:49 PM EDT
[#35]
Never mind - I read back in the thread and figured out my question.
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Posted: 9/29/2013 7:37:32 PM EDT
[#36]
When I look really hard at that archived pic, I see two things. First, the stock looks like a fixed A1 to me. (What's visible under his arm.) Second, if you blow it up, the HGs have a weird shape to them, as if they were upside down at the rear (narrow side down) but normal at the front. Considering the matte look of the HGs I don't think it's out of the question that it could be a test mule. And yes, I think it's a middy, not an XM177. Real or not it'd make an interesting build huh? Seriously, blow up the pic and look at the profile of the rear edge of the HGs.
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Posted: 9/29/2013 8:04:03 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I look really hard at that archived pic, I see two things. First, the stock looks like a fixed A1 to me. (What's visible under his arm.) Second, if you blow it up, the HGs have a weird shape to them, as if they were upside down at the rear (narrow side down) but normal at the front. Considering the matte look of the HGs I don't think it's out of the question that it could be a test mule. And yes, I think it's a middy, not an XM177. Real or not it'd make an interesting build huh? Seriously, blow up the pic and look at the profile of the rear edge of the HGs. I don't know Morg - I agree on the A1 stock, but it is a hard sell to me that it is NOT carbine length gas. Homemade hand guards that overlap the slip ring? Look how close the end is to the carry handle. I vote Carbine gas with longer home made handguards |
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Posted: 9/29/2013 8:09:40 PM EDT
[#38]
I just realized something. That caption for that pic from TBR attributes the pictured rifle to "Bob Miller collection". KAC's probably came from Colt with all their other toolroom and prototype stuff, so there was probably more than one. If one leaked out to a private collector probably a handful at least.
Wonder what happened to that one that was in the Miller collection? |
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