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Posted: 4/21/2012 1:36:10 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I am having some accuracy problems with a rifle I put together. History: I got everything except the lower from the estate of a local FFL. I was told he was rebuilding these with modern uppers, rails, etc for departments. This particular upper had a 22 kit in it and no flash hider. I think he was running it full auto maybe with a can. I was guessing this was a mid 70s m16 based on what I have seen here. I shot it with some surplus 62grain ammo. It was barely on the paper and putting bullets through sideways. You could see the perfect outlines and all over the paper at25 yards. Went back and tried again with quality 55 gr ammo. Couldn't hit the paper at 50 yards. Bore looks smooth toward the chamber with rifling the rest of the way looking normal Or a little light. I'm no expert and was just looking through with a light. I cleaned it normally, it it shot out? Leaded up? Anyone date this better for me and I'll take any suggestions on the accuracy. Thanks. http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg531/mathews2001/2dd47c58.jpg http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg531/mathews2001/305db7da.jpg http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg531/mathews2001/45759592.jpg http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg531/mathews2001/c1a67fdd.jpg 62 grain keyholing may be due to the 1-12 twist. some will stabilize 62 gr, some won't. did you bore sight it? you should be able to get it on paper at 50 yards, then you need to look at the groups to determine if it's shot out. i doubt a .22 would shoot it out, it may be leaded out though. |
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Posted: 4/21/2012 1:42:58 PM EDT
[#2]
Two issues come to mind:
First, your rear sight isn't installed or indexed correctly. Second, worn out barrel. |
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Posted: 4/21/2012 1:49:47 PM EDT
[#3]
I'm not that familiar with the a1 sites. I basically centered the rear and was going to start there at 25 yds then move out. At 50 yds it hit the target frame once, then a couple random hits out of 20. No consistent hits I could use to adjust in.
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Posted: 4/21/2012 1:53:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Was the rear sight already installed when you got the upper? You mentioned that this had a .22 kit installed, I'm leaning towards the barrel being worn out.
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Posted: 4/21/2012 3:54:58 PM EDT
[#5]
Barrel being extremely lead fouled could do it too. .22 likes to do that.
What are the markings on the barrel? Can you take a pic? I doubt that upper is from the 70's with the brass deflector bump. |
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Posted: 4/21/2012 4:24:01 PM EDT
[#6]
Move it left or right to get it on paper. If worn out there's not gonna be any consistency. First I would suggest a good cleaning. Your description of the chamber condition kinda sounds shot out. Not uncommon on a 30-40 yr old USGI barrel or even newer. Blasting FA can ruin one pretty quickly if done incorrectly and can be punishable with some extra duty. Doesn't matter to a soldier as long as it saves lives in the field. Do you have a buddy with a throat erosion guage or local smith that would check it for you? That would be the easiest quickest way to know the wear amount. Also not uncommon for a USGI barrel windage to be off a bit according to some of the members here in retroland. Gonna need to know where it's at to adjust. Have heard of 8-12 clicks off of mechanical zero just never personally experienced it. As stated above 1-12 twist might not like 62gr ammo but it should love 55gr.
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Posted: 4/21/2012 6:23:45 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Barrel being extremely lead fouled could do it too. .22 likes to do that. What are the markings on the barrel? Can you take a pic? I doubt that upper is from the 70's with the brass deflector bump. The barrel has "C MP chrome Bore"on it. Also it feels machined with small ridges, not smooth. There is a mark in fron of the ejection port I can't quite make out. |
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Posted: 4/21/2012 6:27:49 PM EDT
[#8]
I think I will get more aggressive cleaning and try again next weekend. Still interested in info and ideas in the mean time. Thanks.
http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg531/mathews2001/eecf8b19.jpg http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg531/mathews2001/a2b4bb66.jpg |
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Posted: 4/21/2012 6:39:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Scrub hell out of it with a bore brush, and see if you can get any lead flakes out of it.
Also check the crown really close, and see if it's got any nicks or low spots. My experience is it can still be fairly accurate with a shotout throat. |
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Posted: 4/21/2012 6:44:59 PM EDT
[#10]
Thanks for the ideas guys. The upper was complete with an old style 22 kit in it. It had an extra "carrier"piece with it. The sites were on. Funny thing, I had the site adjustment tool, but I have never had an A1.
From the seller, I dug up a stock, flash hider, bolt and grip to finish it. I just got what looked right from the spares they had. I like the weight and handling of this gun. I hope I can get it running. The lower is one of the $49 lowers from palmetto with their parts kit. I have a friends that shoots bench rest and has most every tool they make for guns. I'll see if he can help me diagnose. I'm going to clean the snot out of it then try again next weekend. |
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Posted: 4/21/2012 7:01:28 PM EDT
[#11]
as others have said clean it real good...could be leaded up.
as also already mentioned if really period correct barrel, it will be 1:12 or 1:14 twist thus, 40-52 gr bullets would be best....55gr will work but not the best. from what i recall...you can use heavier bullets, but they have to be commercial flatbase. i am sure someone will be along to confirm/reject this |
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Posted: 4/21/2012 8:18:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Sounds to me like a shot out barrel, especially since you mentioned key holing at 25 yards.
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Posted: 4/22/2012 3:14:05 PM EDT
[#13]
What I find interesting is that it had no Flash hider. This may have been for a number of reasons, but the crown could have been damaged, giving you the results you are getting. Lead fouling from .22LR has been mentioned, and a definite possibilty. I would check these two things first. You can recrown the barrel with a round head brass bolt and some abrasive, but I woul make sure that's it. Just a litle ding could cause all kinds of problems, and the upper may have fallen on it's muzzle with the FH removed, or something similiar. Just an idea.
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Posted: 4/22/2012 6:36:29 PM EDT
[#14]
I have a friends that shoots bench rest and has most every tool they make for guns. I'll see if he can help me diagnose. I'm going to clean the snot out of it then try again next weekend. If yer buddy shoots bench rest seriously, it's very likely he or one of his BR buddies will have a bore scope. If there's a smith thereabouts who builds real precision rifles, not tacky-kool gun plumbing, he probably has one as well. That'll tell the tale of what's up the spout of that thing most ricky-tick. |
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Posted: 4/22/2012 6:45:19 PM EDT
[#15]
Pull the hider off and take a good pic of the crown. What ammo are you using...it should NOT be shooting THIS bad! |
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Posted: 5/2/2012 6:06:21 PM EDT
[#16]
I will get the picture with the hider off. The ammo was first 62gr surplus, then second trip Hornady 55gr and some remington 55gr.
I didnt make it to the range last weekend. They were hosting a silencer demo event. I will try for Friday. Busy weekends all this month and May. Thanks guys. |
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Posted: 5/19/2012 4:26:55 PM EDT
[#17]
So I went to the gunsmith. He checked the barrel with a scope and a gauge? Not sure what it is called. The barrel and chamber are beyond shot out. Not much rifling past the 4" near the muzzle. Gave him a good laugh. He did mention how much he liked the A1s and their simplicity.
So I need to source a replacement barrel. I want to keep it original if possible and make it a good shooter. It has some nice wear and tear on it now. Any suggestions? |
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Posted: 5/19/2012 5:47:34 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
So I went to the gunsmith. He checked the barrel with a scope and a gauge? Not sure what it is called. The barrel and chamber are beyond shot out. Not much rifling past the 4" near the muzzle. Gave him a good laugh. He did mention how much he liked the A1s and their simplicity. So I need to source a replacement barrel. I want to keep it original if possible and make it a good shooter. It has some nice wear and tear on it now. Any suggestions? That sucks. If it was just the muzzle end that's the problem you could cut it down... but if the chamber and throat are shot out, well, you can always cut it off just behind the FSB, mount it to a stand or plaque and use it to display your favorite bayonet! |
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Posted: 5/19/2012 5:54:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
So I went to the gunsmith. He checked the barrel with a scope and a gauge? Not sure what it is called. The barrel and chamber are beyond shot out. Not much rifling past the 4" near the muzzle. Gave him a good laugh. He did mention how much he liked the A1s and their simplicity. So I need to source a replacement barrel. I want to keep it original if possible and make it a good shooter. It has some nice wear and tear on it now. Any suggestions? That sucks. If it was just the muzzle end that's the problem you could cut it down... but if the chamber and throat are shot out, well, you can always cut it off just behind the FSB, mount it to a stand or plaque and use it to display your favorite bayonet! sleeve it for a .22 and have cheap retro plinking. plus it'll be more accurate since it'll be actual .22 size. $35 from brownells: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=10974/Product/-22-CALIBER-RIMFIRE-BARREL-LINERS 
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Posted: 5/20/2012 7:11:40 AM EDT
[#20]
Nah, I have .22s out my ears. I probably have enough room to sleeve it for a .30 caliber though!
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Posted: 5/22/2012 11:00:24 AM EDT
[#21]
Are the FN A2 barrels a good replacement? I saw some in the A2 section. Aren't they thicker? I wouldnt want to add weight.
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Posted: 5/22/2012 11:38:24 AM EDT
[#22]
FN A2 barrels can be accurate - I have one on a C7 build and find it to be fine out to the 100 yards at the local range. Have not done testing beyond that yet as it is a relatively new build. Sorry I didnt take any pictures of the results but just getting on paper for me with open sights is pretty good
 !
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Posted: 5/22/2012 12:00:00 PM EDT
[#23]
Call me skeptical....but for it to have ALL the rifling gone except the 4" near the muzzle it would to have been shot HARD for 30,000+ rounds. Especially since it's a Chrome bore barrel. Can YOU look through the bore and see rifling all the way down? A strong light on the bolt face and look from the muzzle end should allow the rifling to be easily visible. |
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Posted: 5/22/2012 12:04:25 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Are the FN A2 barrels a good replacement? I saw some in the A2 section. Aren't they thicker? I wouldnt want to add weight. Yes, they are slightly thicker in the area not covered by the handguards. The A1 profile is ~.625 diameter in this area, while the A2 profile is .750 in this area. You would probably be able to notice the weight and balance change, but it isn't really that bad. At least for me, I notice it, but I don't feel that it bothers me. If it were me, I'd probably go ahead and put the A2 barrel on it until I was able to get my hands on a chrome lined A1 barrel. At least until then you'd have a nice rifle you could really shoot. |
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Posted: 5/22/2012 12:07:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Call me skeptical....but for it to have ALL the rifling gone except the 4" near the muzzle it would to have been shot HARD for 30,000+ rounds. Especially since it's a Chrome bore barrel.
Can YOU look through the bore and see rifling all the way down? A strong light on the bolt face and look from the muzzle end should allow the rifling to be easily visible.
Ok, call us both skeptical. That setup just doesn't look that abused from the outside. But if you do need a barrel there are alternatives to using an A2 profile. |
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Posted: 5/22/2012 12:57:00 PM EDT
[#26]
I bought this from the estate of an FFL. it was on a full auto lower with a .22 kit on it. I think it was an abused or blaster barrel. The gunsmith showed me the bore with a scope. it was ugly.
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Posted: 5/22/2012 12:58:01 PM EDT
[#27]
i've got a barrel that has pitting near the muzzle end, i think it was left out in the elements for a while.
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Posted: 5/22/2012 4:05:21 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
I bought this from the estate of an FFL. it was on a full auto lower with a .22 kit on it. I think it was an abused or blaster barrel. The gunsmith showed me the bore with a scope. it was ugly. Ok. 'nuff said. You can get a new barrel from Green Mountain, or AR15Hardware. |
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Posted: 5/22/2012 5:07:44 PM EDT
[#29]
Fair enuff...that's what I needed to hear!  Just hit the EE....and A1 or A2 barrel will be along shortly..... Quoted: I bought this from the estate of an FFL. it was on a full auto lower with a .22 kit on it. I think it was an abused or blaster barrel. The gunsmith showed me the bore with a scope. it was ugly. |
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Posted: 5/23/2012 12:39:38 AM EDT
[#30]
Once you've got a new barrel with a front sight base mounted on it, you'll be ready to do the swap.
About all you need for that is a good bench vise, maybe a couple wooden blocks for support, some pin punches, a barrel wrench, breaker bar, and torque wrench, and a little bit of some lithium wheel bearing grease or something. It sounds like quite a lot of stuff, but it really isn't. Once you get the old barrel off, you'll be able to get the new one on in under an hour, easy. |
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Posted: 5/23/2012 6:46:56 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Once you've got a new barrel with a front sight base mounted on it, you'll be ready to do the swap. About all you need for that is a good bench vise, maybe a couple wooden blocks for support, some pin punches, a barrel wrench, breaker bar, and torque wrench, and a little bit of some lithium wheel bearing grease or something. It sounds like quite a lot of stuff, but it really isn't. Once you get the old barrel off, you'll be able to get the new one on in under an hour, easy. Well, if you go the new barrel route, the front sight will require drilling and tapping. You can re-use the FSB off the shot out barrel. I don't do that myself, but plenty others will do it for a small fee. Cheaper than a genuine retro barrel with FSB off the EE. But a barrel from the EE might be your best bet for doing all the work yourself. |
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