if I make an XM177e2 using a DPMS lower?



Im working on a few other retro builds, including an A1 and 601.  Those will be on correct NDS lowers.



Im on the fence.

Your rifle. Do as you please.

Plenty of us have used other than NDS before and plenty of us will do it again, but considering the overall cost of a build and the comparatively small added cost that the NDS lower will add to the total, I'm probably only gonna use NDS in the future.  You should do what you think best, it really depends on what your definition of "authentic" is.

If you ever get as psychotic as some folks here get in the quest for authenticity, the nice thing about AR's is, you can always change 'em and it's easy to do it.

You scared me for a minute. I thought you were going to say something like:

'I'm voting for Obama.' or 'I think we need stricter gun laws.'

Is it at least a partial fence?  

Go for it.  You will switch it to an NDS later.  

GO TO HELL!



Build whatever YOU want.

Use a black C7 upper and call it an M177!  You could go with the story that this is the "perfected" model.

Like an elbow to the gut... maybe the best pun I've seen here yet.
Very clever!

You can always duracoat it in the light grey color and make it match alittle more , I did my first wanna be retro like that worked out for me.

I've only had the opportunity to use A2 lowers for my builds.  They were easiest for me to aquire at the time, I just blasted em with norrels and they look authentic enough,  I've even seen a picture of a later Colt M16A1 that was built from the factory on an A2 profile lower, so i dont feel that horrible about it

of course you do realize that guys who were into retro before the NDS lowers became available were pretty much stuck with A2's

that's why there were modifying guides such as this


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/294264_AR15_M16A1_Lower_Receiver__Model_Guide_Clone_Building_Guide_FAQ__redux.html

Like already said, you can always get a NoDaK later on if you so choose.

If it were me ?

I would sell the DPMS receiver and get the NoDaK Spud and do it right the first time .
Just my .02 Cents.

I would go ahead and build it on the DPMS.  And then replace the DPMS with a Nodak lower later.  And then you'll have this lower you just HAVE to build something on!    I've done it, that's why more and more builds show up at my house.  I always seem to have this lower looking for a home.  

This...Otherwise it is an endless cycle....Ask me how I know?

Yes.  You will be disowned.  Send all of your ARs and associated accessories to me.  PM for address and shipping details.  You are hereby expelled from our ranks.












~Augee

I pretty much don't mind what anyone does his own rifle. . . until you start throwing random rails around. . . .

The inspiration for my build... a LATE m16A1 built by Colt on an M16A2 lower receiver, musta been a transitional model.  It was my justification for using the only lower I could get my hands on at that time, which was an A2.  In your case, there would not have been any XM177s built on A2 profile lowers, as they were a much earlier design, but I wouldnt be surprised if a few 653s or other carbines came out of the Colt factory in an A1 configuration on an A2 lower, I'm willing to bet there are certainly some airforce carbines in that configuration.





Not trying to hijack your thread, but heres my rifle based on the pictures above.  A "transitional" late M16A1, my GAU clone is also built on an A2 lower.  I would like to have had them assembled on nodak lowers but in the meantime, the A2 lower doesnt bother me so much and they were convenient for me to purchase at the time.  Maybe one day they will be upgraded with nodak lowers, but in my opinion, they look retro enough.  I am not shooting for perfection (except for when I'm actually shooting )

Just to clarify - it's extremely unlikely that USGI M16A1s would appear on A2 profile lowers - however Colt is known for using whatever is "in house" for their commercial offerings, which that M16A1 is.

Also, don't know off top of my head the provenance of that lower - but Colt did for a short while "rebuild" registered transferrable receivers on A2 forgings using the same markings and serial number before the BATFE put the kibosh on that practice, so it may not be an "original" piece on that rifle.    

As others have said, it's not a big deal to use what's on had since very few of us have the money and/or capability to get an actual "accurate" Colt select-fire lower that's property marked.  

~Augee

wait so Colt actually made COLT M16A1s for the commercial market? I'm assuming in this case "commercial" is reffering to law enforcement or export? I couldn't imagine them manufacturing machine guns with the civilian market in mind.  The rifle I posted is a genuine straight from the factory colt m16a1, built on an A2 lower receiver, it was not restamped and it even has the safe semi and auto markings on the right side of the receiver like the later models would have.  Personally, I am not too concerned with whether or not my build is a USGI replica, I just like my shooters to look retro, and to the common AR enthusiast, anything thats gray with an A1 upper receiver and a pencil barrel, with no optics on it, is usually perceived as "retro".  Obviously I am very interested in the history of the AR-15 rifles and love the early military examples, but because of the tough laws in my state, and the ridiculously high transfer fee of my FFL, I canot get my hands on a nodak lower anytime soon.  When I saw that A1 on the A2 lower I was a bit relieved that at least my built is CLOSE to something that colt actually produced, although it does not date back to the Vietnam era.  In OP's case, there definitely would not have been any XM177 carbines built on anything but A1 (or partial fence?) lowers, even in the case of the USAF carbines, I've never seen one built on anything but an early lower.  I am happy with the way my builds look, despite their obvious retro innacuracy.  The grayish-flat black moly resin really does a great job replicating the original gray anodzing.  The rifles always turn heads at my local range, because here in NJ, gray AR-15s tend to be banned, because they are either colts or old enough to be in preban configuration.  I've gotten some stares from ROs because my rifles look like pre-ban Colt sporters, especially the one with the pinned aluminum stock.  Therefore I have come to the conclusion that they are retro enough for my liking.  Though I do wish I could build something more historically accurate, maybe one day

Not criticizing you, my friend.  

Just making a clarifying note, since many here do try to replicate USGI weapons.  That photo is without a doubt "real."  And I didn't say it was necessarily a re-maunfactured lower - but that it could be, as Colt did do such things.  When I say Colt replicated the markings, I meant that they re-used the "M16A1" nomenclature and serial number.  For the most part, once Colt changes a manufacturing procedure, they don't go back.  This applies to such thing as right side selector markings.  

And yes, when I say "commercial" I mean Law Enforcement / Export market, i.e. non-U.S. military sales.  That being said, remember that that was before the 1986 MG ban, and newly manufactured transferrable machine guns could be bought by civilians through the NFA just like we can get factory SBRs from Colt now.  At the time, MGs were only a little more expensive than semis or SBRs, but then again, remember that due to inflation, $200 was almost $400 according to the Inflation Calculator http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi.

Thank god they haven't increased the NFA tax since 1936, as $200 in 1936 was an over $3,100 tax today!  

~Augee

We all had to start somewhere.

That is beautiful work, UXB.  I never knew until you posted those, as I've seen your 607 before, thinking it was NoDak.

like I said, some guys built retro's prior to NDS coming onto the scene

Actually you could make a pretty good case that the M4A1 is the "perfected" model. But the first carbine I was issued circa 1992 was basically an Xm177E2 with the following changes: A2 reinforced lower, 14.5" barrel (maybe 14.7"?), A2 flash suppressor. Soon the uppers were changed out for A2 sights... we got the flattops concurrent with the SOPMOD I kit in 2000 or early 2001. I believe the first one called M4 was the A2-sight verson. I believe the rollmark on the A1 sight version was Colt M16 Carbine, United States Property. But that's from a now 20-year-old memory.

Before the carbines, we carried A2s briefly (I never liked them, although the handguards were a big improvement over the A1) and before that, A1s for many years. All variants of M16 with a forward assist (including XMs, and parts Frankenguns, and H&R/Hydamatic "veterans") were carried on the property book as Rifle, M16A1 under the A1 NSN.

The carbines were an immediate hit –– much lighter than the A2s they replaced. The first place I saw a 14.5" barrel carbine was at SOT school in 1981 or 1982... they still had some XM177E2s also. They, and MP5s, were used for instinctive shooting training... most of the work at SOT was done with pistols.

The way I see it if its your rifle do what you wish, Sometimes all of the parts are not always available at the same time.

For me the NODAK partial fence was first but the correct barrel MP evades me for now so I went with a CMP CHROME BORE. My handguards are also not exact as theyhave drain holes. but part of the fun is hunting down the parts and swapping them out. So go for it with the DPMS and make it more retro as you can,

Just my $0.02 YMMV

This. All I own now is NDS lowers, although I see an SP1 in my future at some point.

you gotta own an SP1 at some point, but yeah, I'm disposing of my A2 lowers at the moment.
I prefer NDS lowers on my retro builds and except for my S&W M&P-15 the other lowers are just dust magnets.

Based on what you've said and the timelines you mentioned, the first would most likely be an RO723.  The A2 sight variants would most likely be RO727s.  

There's some circumstantial evidence that there was a very very limited number of M4 Carbines (not SOF M4A1s) initially issued with RO727 upper receivers (fixed carry handle A2 sights).  For all intents and purposes - true M4s and M4A1s are exclusively flattop weapons - minus a single production run that's still unconfirmed.  

In '81 and '82 you'd've most likely been seeing R653s.  

Carbines after the XM177E2 and before the M4 / M4A1 would not have had U.S. Property markings and would have been marked commercially like the picture posted above by xm177e2 saying either "COLT / M16A1" or "COLT / M16A2" or rarely "COLT / M4/M16A2E"

M16A1 marked A2 profile lowers are possible (as xm177e2 has shown) but would be much rarer compared to M16A2 marked A1 profile lowers.  

~Augee

Yeah, I've lurked this section of the forum since the beginning, before NoDak made the NDS-series.  I was first made aware of NoDak as a source for AK receivers I think.  I just didn't realize/remember that UXB's 607 was made from an A2.  I've been scouring different sources for A1/early-pattern lowers for a long, long time now.  I haven't been able to get an account because of my tennis-ball on the map whereabouts, so I've just had to watch the developments of the retro forum in silence.  This has been the only place on AR15.com that I found genuine, gentlemanly conduct on, so that is a major plus.  Seems like the moderators have improved things in the other areas of the forum lately as well.

I have ordered several NDS lowers, and now I'm getting into the 80% stuff.  Just got my 605B lower with custom engravings, so I'm now looking at maybe getting a milling machine and the Tactical Machining jigs.  I think I will be starting the rest of my retro builds with 80%'s, because I like the original markings, and there are some hidden mods I prefer to do that are done best before anodizing.  I really wish NoDak would make 80%'s, but now that guys are just plugging the data into their CNC's, fixing an A2 isn't that hard.  The one I just got is amazing, and even got the pivot pin bosses correct, extension tube retaining pin hole, re-profiled extension tube threading/stock junction, partiall fence, etc.

When you say "SOT", are we talking Range 37 SOT at Bragg...

Heck, all my retro builds ended up using A2 lowers. To be fair though, in two of the instances I had a lower laying around I happened into an A1 upper so that's what I used.