Well, as promised, here's a crappy pic...





Don't mind the stock fit.  I had removed it and just slipped it back on for the pic so it's not really installed.  It needs a little work to the inletting and I was just checking things out a bit.  It looks  its 100 years, and someone decided to carve a P on the side at some point in its life, but it's solid, with no cracks or rot so I think I'll just clean it up a bit, bed the inletting for a good tight fit, put a few fresh coats of BLO on it and call it good with the buttstock.

I'll post more, better pics once I make some progress, but I have a couple of other projecs to tackle before really getting this one underway....

It's one of the older ones with the J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co, name.

Looks like a fine companion for your retro ARs!

Well....




Ummm....



Actually....



Errr....  I found this thread a while back quite by accident, as I don't usually hang out in here...  

Ummm... OK!  I'll say it!   I don't have a retro AR.  



But, this thread, among others, did spur my interest in retro shotguns.....  

So, who knows?  Maybe there's hope for me yet....

Order a NoDak lower now and by the time you get it, we'll have convinced you that you need a Retro AR

Another little historical tidbit, for those with an interest in such things....

One of Clyde Barrow's guns was a cut down Stevens 520:



I also picked up another old shotgun at the gun show this past weekend.  I don't believe one of these ever saw wartime duty, so it probably doesn't fit here too well, but it's a cool one nonetheless...





Nice wood too...



This one will soon be cut down and turned into my own version of a "retro riot gun"...

Man.....that stock looks to nice to cut down.

This

Imaposer: I have a shortened stock Id trade for it if you'd rather that.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_1/419863_Retro_Shotgun___Latest_gun_show_find_Project_shotgun.html

He's planning on cutting the barrel shorter not the stock

YES!  Just the barrel, definitely NOTthe stock!

I will be adding a recoil pad but the only modifications to the stock will be plugging the plate mounting holes and drilling new ones as required for the new pad.  I'm not even going to refinish this wood.  Just clean it and leave it alone.....

You have a stock to fit this gun?  I'm surprised.  I've never even seen another before finding this one.  Can't even find much info online about them.  Google doesnt turn up many hits and most of what it does come up with lead to really short forum threads of people asking questions and not getting any answers.  They don't appear to be too common.

Oops

Right on, not sure why I thought that

Good looking shotgun

Yeah, I initially wondered where that came from myself.  Then I went back and reread my post and saw that in context, the way I said I was going to cut it down, right after the pic of the stock....  I can see where it may have been a little confusing...

And thanks!  I like it!  

Whewwww!    Glad that stock will be o.k.

Can't wait to see the finished project.

Is it not a Winchester 12? They made 2 million of them.

Actually, it's not...  

VERY similar, but not a Winchester.  At first glance it does appear to be though.  It had me confused when I found it in the gun rack at the show.  But, look closely at the forward end of the mag tube and you'll see the takedown lever...

I guess I could float this out there as a challenge to see if anyone could figure it out.    But, that would probably take too long.    Even Google doesn't have too many hits on this one even when you know who made it and the model number.  When I found it I knew nothing about it so I spent some time on my phone trying to learn more while walking around show.  Didn't get much info

It's actually a Savage model 1921.  I believe it was Savage's first attempt at building a pump shotgun and was intended to compete directly with the M12.  The 1921 (produced 1921-1927) was followed by a slightly revised version called the model 1928 (produced 1927-1934).  Combined, less than 20,000 were sold.  Fairly uncommon gun.  

Back to the takedown lever...  

Whereas the Winchester uses a "push pin" lever, the Savage uses a longer flip out lever that's normally held against the tube, or 90* to the tube for use, with a spring detent.  Other than that detail the takedown works exactly like the M12.  In fact, while I can't say for certain if it's true, I was told that Savage was sued over the design because of alleged patent infringement.  If true, they obviously either won the suit or purchased the rights because they continued making them that way.

I'm not sure how the stocks differ, but I'm fairly sure the m12 stock wouldn't work due to the tang mounted safety selector on the M21.  It's possible it could be adapted with a little inletting work but I haven't compared them side by side to see how they compare in other areas.

Here's a little info about the guns that a member of another board gave me...

http://www.pmulcahy.com/pump-action_shotguns/us_pa_shotguns_s-z.htm

I can't attest to the validity of the article but when discussing the M21 vs. the M12 the author says,   "it is widely regarded as the better shotgun, and was also (in real-life terms) far less expensive at the time than the Winchester 12".

Neat!

thanks for the education!

Yeah, it is kinda neat.  

Just my luck too!  I SPECIFICALLY bought this gun to cut down to turn it into my version of a retro semi riot gun.  A short takedown gun that would fit in a 20" Skinner takedown case for taking on camping trips.  Then, once I get it home and start researching...  Now, with it being as uncommon as it is I almost hate to cut it down that short!  

The only saving grace is that it appears to have already been cut back to ~25".  And whoever did it got a little off when they reset the bead.  It's a nonstock bead and it's offset a little to the left at about 11:30-11:45ish.  If it were still stock I'd probably just attend to a few things, clean it up and leave it alone.

I had Guncat / RAS do my W12 barrel, was very happy with it

You need to watch what you do with older barrels - the metallurgy apparently doesn't hold up well to steel shot. I believe the main issue is the throat, but I don't want to give you bad info. If you can't use lead shot, the older choked barrels can be dangerous - which makes them perfect for cylinder bore buckshot IMO. Jes' sayin'.

Interesting.
That's a weapon description and stat sheet for a role playing game called Twilight 2000.

Yeah, I contacted guncat about another gun that I THOUGHT I was getting.  THe seller ended up flaking out on me and selling to his brother after we had settled on a price, I had made arrangements with my FFL and he had even talked to my FFL.  

But anyway, I actually HAVE this gun now so I just need to decide exactly what I want to do with it.  I'm leaning to getting it cut back to 18.5", maybe 20", and having it threaded for tubes just in case I ever want to take it to the trap/skeet range.    I measured the barrel OD at the 18.5" mark last weekend and it's a little thin walled at 0.835" OD.  

I know it has enough meat to allow threading for certain tubes, but my concern is, if it's bored and threaded for tubes, and the wall thickness is already on the thin side, will there be enough meat left to really make the bead SECURE?  Since this isn't intended to be a range only gun, and I'll be using it as a camp gun, I don't want to have to worry about the bead getting knocked off and damaging the threads in the barrel.  

So, I just have to figure out, since that is the guns REAL purpose, will the possibility of maybe using it occasionally for range shooting be a worthwhile trade-off for having concerns about the bead?  Or, would I just be better off leaving it a cyl. bore and having more thread length for a more secure bead?  If not for that one issue I'd definitely get it threaded for tubes though, since that would still allow the gun to be at least somewhat functional for most things even with the short barrel.

One possible solution to this would be having a Remington style pedestal added.  That would give plenty of meat for the bead to thread into, but it's a good bit more expensive and I have no idea what the POA/POI will be either with or without the pedestal.   For trap, and most other uses, I'd rather the gun shoot high than low.

Not only that, but I had also considered getting it fitted with the proper bead and later adding a Big Dot.  The more secure bead would be better here too, I would think...

Yep.  I actually used that fact as a bargaining chip/negotiating point with a pawn shop owner a couple of weeks ago.  I was looking at a decent M1897 he had.  I reminded him that it couldn't be used with steel shot and therefore took it off the radar of a lot of his customer base.    He agreed, but we still didn't reach a deal.

Either way though, this gun isn't destined for waterfowl hunting, so unless they mandate steel shot for HD ammo, I'll be fine since Federal Low Recoil 00 Buck or Hornady Tap 00 Buck, and MAYBE some slugs, will be all this gun sees other than light target loads for practice or trap/skeet.  Of course, with the libs being anti-gun and greenie weenies, they'll probably combine forces to outlaw all lead based ammo through "environmental concerns" and EPA mandate, eventually.    I mean, if you can't outlaw guns, just outlaw the ammo, right?  

I weighed the same options on my W12 barrel, I ended up not having it threaded. Im not going to take it out to the trap range

Which part?  Just the takedown feature, or specifically the M1921?

Shit!  You were supposed to say, "I did and it worked FINE!".  

Well, I could always have it fitted with a Cutts...  

Actually, I had considered having a Cutts permanently installed on a shorter barrel to bring the length up over 18" once.  Since the external choke tubes thread to the end of the compensator portion and the bead is actually on the comp, you don't have to worry about that issue.  I've read that they actually worked fairly well to reduce recoil and some even claim that with the interchangeable chokes they shot the best patterns they'd ever seen....  They supposedly also make the guns significantly louder.

If you go to the link shown you'll see a box with a purple header for each shotgun. Those are the game stats for each shotgun.

Go to his home page and you'll find a directory of Twilight 2000 stat sheets.

BTW Twilight 2000 plays like Dundgeons and Dragons with 20th century weapons and no magic.

I had a Cutts cut off the barrel instead of having a new one installed.

I just like taking it out and throwing some clays up on the berm and blasting away at them on the days I take my Garand and 1911 out. Its a fun gun, its not like Im going to be doing anything serious with it.  

That's what my FN SLP is for.

Yeah, the gun I mentioned had a Cutts already on it.  I had considered having the barrel cut back enough and having the Cutts removed from the stub and then permanently reinstalled so that the length was then over 18". The deal on that gun ended up falling through but it was just a thought I had to have something "different", because I already had the parts, and it would give me the added benefit of the recoil reduction and the ability to use the Cutts chokes.  Just a thought really, not a real serious plan or anything....

As far as "serious purposes"...

My other hobby is motorcycles. Been doing that almost as long as I've been shooting guns. In the spring/summer/fall I enjoy going motorcycle camping in the mountains of N. GA, SE TN, and SW NC. I feel better when I'm armed and having a 12ga shotgun around camp makes me feel better than the handguns I normally carry.

Problem is, when motorcycle camping, space for all your gear is at a real premium. A short compact takedown shotgun with a barrel length of between 18 and 20 inches will fit in a Skinner 20" takedown soft case, and just coincidentally that'll fit in my motorcycle luggage along with my other gear. Anything larger just won't work. For around camp and in the tent at night, it'll be a comforting thing to have. I have a shotgun (590A1) as my primary HD bedside gun now, so I see no reason I can't have that same level of protection while camping as well.

Will I realistically ever need it? I surely hope to hell not! But, it's like insurance... hopefully you'll never use it, but if you ever do need it you'll be damn glad you had it. Just makes me rest better at night. We live in a crazy world these days. Plus, in the areas I go we've had incidences recently of black bears becoming a nuisance. I don't believe anyone's been injured yet, but there have been at least a couple of occurrences of them foraging in campsites, and one truck where a bear actually "peeled" the door off to get at something inside. Again, hopefully, I'll never have a need to shoot a bear. And even if it did, I may not even get a chance, but if it ever did get to that point, a 12ga with 5 or 6 Brenneke slugs sure would be nice to have handy. Or at least my imagination makes me think so, and that makes me sleep better.   Probably a lesser threat is the rising population of coyotes. Never heard of them being a threat to people in my area but I suppose it could be possible that one could become desperate and bold enough to be threatening. And there's always the possibilities of rabies, or just aggressive feral dogs. I'm ok with a handgun but I'm better with a shoulder fired weapon, and with the right loads a 12ga shotgun can be a formidable weapon against most anything in my part of the universe.

So, for me and this application, the takedown capability is the biggest advantage of the older models that have it.  None of the more modern guns are really suitable for this application or fit my needs as well.

Well, I'll be damned!  I just received the link to that info today on another board.  Everything I read on the other guns was deadnuts and the parts I did know about the M21 was as well, so I just took it as a brief fact sheet on various shotguns of the era.  I had no idea that it was connected to a role play game.  

But, looking through a few other fact sheets just now, I found nothing incorrect.  At least the ones I reviewed makes it appear that the creator did his research!   I wonder where he lifted his info from....  It reads like it came from a magazine article or something.  Lots of details that don't apear to be meaningful as far as a game goes.... Discussion of the various grades and their differences, etc....

That's just frickin' weird!

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_162/1288968_WTS_Norinco_1897_Trench_Gun_and_Stevens_77C_Riot_style_shotgun.html

couple retro's for sale in the EE

I just picked one of those up myself.....ex Louisiana State Police.......



A good friend/neighbor who was SF in the mid-late 70's said they fielded the 8 shot M&P's for his entire enlistment.......

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

That's beautiful.  I love ex-Police shotties.  If it could only talk.

It would probably say, "I spent a lot of time in a humid trunk."

Thats probably pretty accurate.....along with the occasional violation of an Alligators/Nutrias/Possums "civil rights"......

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_162/1295143_WTS_High_Standard_Model_10_B_Police_Shotgun.html

here's something cool for sale

LMAO! I puked harder than Oscar Pistorias did during his murder trial looking at that.

I think the 10A's look a lot cooler, but its still a historically important shotgun IMHO.

Damn right!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFvRvSxsW-I

thought I would post an update on my riot gun projects, L to R:

Mossberg 500 to 590 conversion - all parts acquired.

Remington Mk1 - need to solder rifle sight on bayonet mount, refinish wood.  Finding a 21" barrel with rifle sights in proving difficult.

Winchester Model 12 Riot, 1942 - going to leave this one alone, since it has "Department of Corrections" markings.

Winchester Model 12 Riot, 1921 - not an original riot, needs furniture refinished, parked.

Winchester 1200 Riot - refinish furniture and frame.

Winchester 1897 - not original riot, needs wood replaced, barrel cut 2" and crowned.

Stevens 77E - needs barrel crowned, frame parked.  I missed out on all the good stuff, need to find VN stock, butt pad, fore end, swivels.  If you have and parts you are willing to part with, please drop me a line.  Thought I could find the stuff on GB or eBay, but no luck. Numrich and Sarco have sold out long ago.

Some very nice guns

riot marked 1200 in the EE

       








 

My humble contribution to the shotgun thread.

Just brought it home from my local fun store.

Remington 870P I believe. Still working on the date but I'm thinking in the 70's.



















Anyone got a good idea how I can install a front sling attachment?

Email Remington and ask, I asked them for the manufacture year on my 870 and had an answer the same day.

there's a link on their website about who to email

Damn Rick, that's one sweet 870. I am guessing early '70s being 2-3/4 only.

I used a factory magazine cap and one of these...^^^(my preferred method)
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/327654/uncle-mikes-quick-detachable-sling-swivel-set-pump-semi-automatic-shotguns-requires-cap-modification-except-browning-2000-winchester-1400-ithaca-37-savage-30-sears-21-stevens-pump-1-black

My other, almost identical, 870 has a Remington mag extension with mag clamp. Like this...
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1601918944/remington-magazine-tube-extension-remington-870-12-gauge-steel-blue

Then there are these universal mag clamps made by several different companies...
http://www.impactguns.com/tacstar-barrel-mag-clamp-universal-wsling-swivel-stud-1081172-751103011720.aspx

ETA: Choate... http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2171117369/choate-magazine-tube-extension-sling-swivel-base-clamp-1-12-gauge

Remington date code chart here.

Remington Society

You may have to zoom up your video display [click View then Zoom then increase %] to read the fine print on the example.

According to the info in that link my barrel code is KO which is May 1977.

Frame serial has a T prefix which was used from  1974 to 1977.

Frame suffix is a V which indicates 2 3/4" 12 Ga.

I'm gonna call this one a 1977 with an original barrel.

It has a Choat mag extension.



I think I want to return it to shock.

Can anyone tell me what parts I need to change?

I imagine the spring and the cap but is there anything else?

Would the original cap have had a sping swivel like this?

Return it to shock? I'd be shocked if you returned it for sure. It's so nice, I think you should keep it!

That should read stock not shock. As in original.

Sorry for the confusion