Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Page AR-15 » AR Pistols
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Site Notices
Posted: 8/14/2017 6:11:28 PM EDT
I'm thinking not. But wondered if I was missing something.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 9:43:30 PM EDT
[#1]
The frontgrip?  Pretty sure that's considered the same as a VFG, which means no-no below 26" OAL per the ATF.  

On a personal note the VFG on a pistol = AOW is bullshit, and would never stand up in court but I don't have the cash to be the test case.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 8:22:19 AM EDT
[#2]
ATF has stated in the past that a VFG is a second grip that is permanently affixed 90° to the bore of the weapon & the user can wrap his/her hand around it.

That's why the Magpul AFG is legal, right?  Because it's not 90° to the bore & you can't wrap your hand around it.  And that's why people say the Hera CQR isn't legal - because you can wrap your hand around it, even though it clearly isn't 90° to the bore.

*but wait*  ATF also says a handgun/pistol is a firearm that was designed and intended to be gripped/fired with ONE HAND ONLY, and that by adding anything intended to be used as a place for a second hand to grip the weapon (or if you ever grip/fire the weapon with 2 hands), you have "redesigned" it into an AOW and must now register it as such.

Clear as mud.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 10:15:22 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
ATF has stated in the past that a VFG is a second grip that is permanently affixed 90° to the bore of the weapon & the user can wrap his/her hand around it.

That's why the Magpul AFG is legal, right?  Because it's not 90° to the bore & you can't wrap your hand around it.  And that's why people say the Hera CQR isn't legal - because you can wrap your hand around it, even though it clearly isn't 90° to the bore.

*but wait*  ATF also says a handgun/pistol is a firearm that was designed and intended to be gripped/fired with ONE HAND ONLY, and that by adding anything intended to be used as a place for a second hand to grip the weapon (or if you ever grip/fire the weapon with 2 hands), you have "redesigned" it into an AOW and must now register it as such.

Clear as mud.
View Quote
Wouldn't that last part include a rail tube also? Its for your hand.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 1:32:21 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Wouldn't that last part include a rail tube also? Its for your hand.
View Quote
In 2006 they said if you add anything "extending below the bore/barrel" intended to be used to grip the weapon with a second hand to steady it, you have redesigned it into an unregistered AOW, since pistols were only ever designed and intended to be gripped/fired with one hand.  So, that sounds like it should include AFGs, handstops, thumb rests, magwell grips, handguards that have obvious areas for hand placement, etc., since they all extend below the bore/barrel.

Since then, ATF has given their blessing to AFGs and the like, while seeming to stick by their VFG = 90° to the bore definition.  According to that, it seems to me that the Hera CQR and the ones below might actually be ok since they aren't 90° and don't meet that definition.*

*I'm not a lawyer and I made a B in geometry.


After all, this is a legal pistol:
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 3:19:10 PM EDT
[#5]
Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/16/2017 10:33:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

In 2006 they said if you add anything "extending below the bore/barrel" intended to be used to grip the weapon with a second hand to steady it, you have redesigned it into an unregistered AOW, since pistols were only ever designed and intended to be gripped/fired with one hand.  So, that sounds like it should include AFGs, handstops, thumb rests, magwell grips, handguards that have obvious areas for hand placement, etc., since they all extend below the bore/barrel.

Since then, ATF has given their blessing to AFGs and the like, while seeming to stick by their VFG = 90° to the bore definition.  According to that, it seems to me that the Hera CQR and the ones below might actually be ok since they aren't 90° and don't meet that definition.*

*I'm not a lawyer and I made a B in geometry.
https://i.imgur.com/ofrwfe8.jpg

After all, this is a legal pistol:
http://modernwarriors.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Micro-Roni-4.jpeg
View Quote
What foregrips are those and are they legal on pistols?
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 8:25:49 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
What foregrips are those and are they legal on pistols?
View Quote
L to R from top to bottom the manufacturers are AIM Sports, Strike Industries, Lage, BCM, VISM, Fortis.

I can't tell you if they're legal on pistols or not.  Some people say they are, some people say they aren't.  Depends on your interpretation of ATF's "VFG = 90° to the bore" definition and how confident you are that the right people will agree with you if it's called into question.  I can tell you that "vertical" means at a right angle to a horizontal plane, and we all know right angles must be exactly 90°.  I'm no math major, but 1°-89° is not equal to 90°.

Then there's ATF's definition of a pistol, which says they weren't designed or intended to be gripped/fired using more than 1 hand (guess that's why it's not called a "handsgun" lol) and simply doing so reclassifies the weapon, so that muddies the waters even more.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-may2006-open-letter-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun

Like most people, I err on the side of caution when it comes to these gray areas where ATF itself can't even give a straight answer.  YMMV
Page AR-15 » AR Pistols
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top