I may finally be getting an AR15 pistol/SBR.  At first I considered an AR9 9mm (build with a dedicated Glock lower), but I'm now leaning towards 5.56 for a better all-around defense firearm.  I built a 3-gun AR15 for competition last year, so I can go the route of building one.  I do have a gunsmith mount the barrel and gas system for me but I take care of everything else.  I couple complete models I've looked at are the Spikes Tactical ST-15 LE 8.1" and the SIG PM400.

http://www.spikestactical.com/pistol-556-81-chf-barrel-w7-sar3-p-1242.html
http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/pm400-11-swat-psb.aspx

I'm guess I can save some money building it and getting the options I like, but I'm just now researching the components.  I do plan on keeping it sub $1k as much as possible, but I also don't want to go on the cheap and want to make sure its mil spec and barrels and such are good and will last.  For those that have already gone down this road and learned from mistakes, what advice would you give me?  For example, am I making the classic mistake of going with a short 8.1" barrel which I'll hate later on because its hard to control, loud, etc?  I've got two 16" AR's already and figured short/small is the goal here.

I figured I would pay the $200? to SBR it as I'm not a big fan of the arm braces.  But I haven't accepted the idea of getting a suppressor.  Haven't gotten over the idea of spending several hundred dollars (sounds like $1k for a really good one is not out of line), plus the paperwork, trust, wait, etc.  Maybe its akin to if you build a good 3-gun rifle, be ready to spend a lot on the scope!

I'm not made of money, so best bang for the buck I always look for, but I've also learned buy once cry once is often the best policy.  So, Black Friday is coming up, lay it on me...where should I go or not go with this AR pistol?

i have built a bunch of ar pistols
4.5"-.22
6.5"-9mm
7.5"-5.56
7.5"-7.62x39
10.5"-5.56

the rifle cal guns all required a little tuning but nothing major to get them running 100%. if you are building it use an adjustable gas block, upgrade the extractor spring and have a few different weight buffers on hand to test it out. also use a f/a carrier and pick your muzzle device wisely

The shortest effective barrel length is 10.5". That's been the standard since 1966 when the first SBR's were adopted by the military (ironically before the M16 was approved for use across the board.)

Barrel length study: http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1093

If an SBR is the end goal keep in mind that many still keep a pistol lower handy, because some states don't allow SBR's, or their ATF approval isn't in hand to travel across a state line, or because they prefer to keep the weapon useful under CCW oriented aspects of the law where some rifle legalities are actually more restrictive. Then there is the sporting aspects - I've been hunting with an AR pistol during this years firearm's season and can also use it in the Alternate season where rifle caliber pistols are legal - but a stocked firearm is not.

The suppressor is a separate issue, which typically runs a minimum of $1000 for it, the Stamp, Trust, etc. A pair of amplified electronic ear muffs silence all the guns around you, and let you hear conversations. Plus - suppressors aren't really considered hearing safe, and many manufacturers still recommend some kind of hearing protection. For all the money spent you still wind up with electronic ear pro - which is exactly what the professionals wear with the commz piped in, too. What does the suppressor do for them, then? It protects other team members from muzzle blast and helps misdirect those being shot at - both activities are team and LEO based. For the average owner, not so much.

I don't usually go to this length to explain but - it's the Pistol forum, not the NFA arms forum. I don't go there, but it's a matter of equal time.

That leaves the Brace - I leave it to say that an SBR or Pistol still has the same range application - short, and definitely minute of man. The intent is to get a hit, not quibble over fractions of an inch in group size or post cherry picked three shot targets. For the bulk of us, it someone can't hit a life sized torso at 21 feet with an AR pistol, I would suspect they couldn't hit that target with a SIG, GLOCK, or 1911 either. And 9mm or .45 from those would definitely be much less effective, which is why the AR pistol is chosen.

If the intent is to go SBR, fine, but the only mechanical difference between it and an AR pistol would be actually installing a stock on a buffer tube. Everything forward can be identical and the round going down range will have the exact same ballistic result. All we are really dealing with is an arbitrary political restriction imposed by a previous generation of anti gun activists. With that in mind, rather than let them milk the public for fees and control their use, keeping the AR pistol a pistol is turning out to be the better choice. Nobody wrote the laws with it in mind, and they didn't anticipate we'd fight back and restore our CCW rights as much as we have. In MO you can carry the pistol loaded in the front seat concealed - a rifle has to be unloaded in the trunk, where it would be a lot less useful. It's a moot legal point, nobody's suggesting firing the weapon from inside a car- but if you did, it would make zero difference.

It's just a bullet laucher, set it up the way you like. Keep in mind that for the money, some options don't return much at all - if anything, they were intended as a punitive restriction to prevent ownership. Didn't happen that way, tho. Pistols can be built and run reliably for under $600.

Great info tirod.  I keep going back and forth between SBR or pistol AR.  Some of the points you bring up are great in regards to keeping it a pistol.  I assume if I keep it a pistol, the same CHL/CCW laws apply as it would to my Glock 17 within state (TX) as well as when traveling and if other states respect my TX CHL?

I've been trying to understand what is required to build or buy such a firearm...particularly a SBR with the Form 1's and 4's.  Get into comments about engraving, trusts and multi month waits.

Just so I haven't gotten confused...if building or buying parts or complete pistols (no stock) with the intent of it being a pistol, is any special activity (forms, "a lower has to be designated as pistol at time of purchase", pistol specific parts, etc) required or would one simply proceed as one would when building a rifle AR...just make sure and avoid stuff like adjustable buffer tubes and stocks and your good?

Currently, I'm thinking of adding the Thordsen cheek rest and flaming pig muzzle device.  I am considering a 7.5" barrel with a 9" hand guard to partly cover the pig as I'm thinking shorter and liter is the way to go and I don't see this being used for long range.

Your lower should be transferred as "other" because the lower is neither a rifle nor a pistol at that time.  Once it is built as a rifle, you cannot build a pistol.  No special forms or anything, just make sure it is transferred as "other"

Thanks guys.  A couple more key questions as a swing to the AR pistol side from SBR.  Some of the information I get is aged, so I want to be up to date and current.

I've read comments where one has to buy the stripped lower first and have it clearly registered as a pistol lower or in this case "other" BEFORE having the upper or barrel for your pistol in your possession.  In other words, you can't get the 7.5" AR pistol barrel first or even a complete pistol upper before you have purchased and completed form 4473 for your pistol lower designating it as pistol or other.

Scenario:  Lets say today, I got on Primary Arms and order ALL my parts for an AR pistol build including traditional AR lower, upper, pistol length barrel, hand guard, pistol type buffer tube, no stock, no vertical fore grip), parts kits, etc ALL in one order.  The order arrives at my FFL since the receiver must be form 4473'd...the form is filled out as "other" and I take everything home and start assembling...I am good?

When talking about any NEW (unused for rifle) "stripped" lower is OK for a pistol build...does it have to be completely stripped (no pins, trigger, bolt release, grip, trigger guard, mag release, etc) or can it be a complete NEW lower with everything (except a notched buffer tube)?

To be completely accurate, only if first built as a rifle must it stay a rifle.

- OS

you can order a lower in any configuration you want as long as it is just the lower.
so you can get s striped lower.
complete lower with stock
complete lower with pistol tube
or lower with lpk installed.

All of them come in the 4473 as other since there is no upper attached.

To make it a pistol all you have to do is remove the stock and attach an upper.

That includes the complete with adjustible stock, just remove the stock portion and you are good. you can keep the "rifle" buffer tube on it if you like.

There are many threads about constructive intent, and the basic idea is you need to have another reason to own that spare stock if you use the rifle buffer tube without a stock on it.
How big a deal it is, can be debated but it is unlikely you would be singled out for owning only a pistol and have a stock without you being in trouble for something else major.

you pretty much cannot build one cheaper than the psa blem deals for 128 bucks plus shipping and ffl fee.
same with the uppers, without owning the tools already.
I posted else where on the karri arms upper I got.
JSE is another good choice if you want something other than psa offerings.
I too decided on the 7.5 inch over all the 10/.5 arguments.

I committed to building an AR pistol and waiting for all my parts to come in.  The stripped AR15 lower (not marked pistol, just typical AR) and complete pistol upper (with 7.5" bbl) are coming from Aeroprecision.  There will be a Magpul angled foregrip and the stabilizer/buffer tube will be the Shockwave Blade.  So, I believe I am compliant with my parts and configuration.  All I need to do is make sure the stripped lower is marked as "OTHER" on the FFL transfer papers.

One other area of confusion I wanted cleared up.  I keep reading about "engraving" going on at times.  "Engraving" doesn't apply to pistols does it unless you are manufacturing your own lower from an 80%? lower which may not have typical manufacturing stamps or maybe in the cases of an SBR (trusted?)?  Thanks.

Meh. That's the way it's supposed to be, but doesn't make it illegal if the FFL is an idiot and marks it as long gun or handgun. Note that a used lower would also be marked as "other firearm", but it might not be legal to make a pistol from it. Meaning, that what an FFL correctly or incorrectly marks on a 4473 does not ultimately determine the legal classification of a firearm, nor the legality of any given future configuration of it.



The only owner engraving required on a firearm is for NFA items. 80%ers you may make require nothing, not even a serial number, unless you are engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms, which of course also requires an FFL license to do so.

- OS

To be absolutely completely accurate, if a receiver is EVER built into a rifle and it is documented as rifle (reported stolen, entered in an NCIC computer, transferred through an FFL, you took pictures of it and sent them to the BATFE or Hillary's email address, etc.) it cannot be a pistol again.

Nope, fraid you are absolutely completely wrong. Even if later transferred as a long gun on a 4473, a receiver first configured as a pistol can still legally be a pistol once again. What an FFL correctly or incorrectly marks on a 4473 does not ultimately determine the legal classification of a firearm, nor the legality of any given future configuration of it. Nor do any of the other things you mentioned.

The burden is on the prosecution to prove that it was indeed first configured as a rifle, and really hardly anything short of an original retailer's records will do so. That, or self-incrimination on the part of a particularly stupid owner.

The only thing you can do with a legal pistol that appears to make it ineligible to legally be a pistol once again is to make it into an SBR, since it can then never leave the purview of NFA as long as it has a short barrel attached, even by a new owner if sold as a GCA rifle or stripped receiver.

- OS

Ohshoot is correct. A rifle must stay a rifle. A pistol can go back and forth, pistol-rifle-pistol..........and so on.

Well heck, let me muddy the water.....I received a lower receiver from an individual. I have no idea what it was in its previous life other than a lower receiver. Am I hanging my ball sack out if I build it into a pistol?

In reality, the odds are near astronomical that wouldn't happen in and of itself, unless you were under the ATF microscope for something else.

But technically legally yes, if there's any chance it was first sold as a rifle, all ATF has to do is use serial number to find out how it left manufacturer/distributor.

Such research could happen from the local level up, too, like say if used in a self defense shooting that led to lawsuit, where every little detail would be micro-inspected by your opposition, whatever. I wouldn't feel real comfy even reporting it if it were stolen unless I was sure of its history.

- OS

Thanks for your reply OS.

When I got the lower (Palmetto State Armory) the guy told me he bought it to do a build but his old lady dropped the hammer. I'm looking at just buying a pistol upper from PSA to put on it.

I chuckled when I read your comment about self-defense use because that is sort of why I'm getting it. I want a small AR platform that I can put in a backpack or gym bag and take places with me. I am active duty in the Army and my name made it onto a terrorist 'soft target' list for domestic lonewolf attacks by jihadists here in the U.S.  The list included my name, home address, phone number, etc. I carry concealed but it is a small 9mm. I want to have something like an AR pistol at hand. I own several AR carbine platforms but don't want something that big.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts.

Well, it's probably virgin and I guess it looks so?  And yeah, I keep a basic mostly PSA AR pistol behind the seat of my truck.



In this, in case I need to tote it around Gray Man style:



- OS

oops, double tap

OS, you have a nice simple set up which is similar to what I was thinking of. My thought with the simple pistol is that if someone does happen to steal it, I'm only out about 600 bucks. My other AR's, as they are currently set up are worth considerably more. I wouldn't lose any sleep over the pistol getting banged around or stolen.

Yeah, and I actually only have closer to 5 bills in this one. Would hurt to have it stolen of course but not as bad as some other of my heaters. I've been lucky where I live and go, never had a vehicle broken into, probably helps that my main chariot is a 20 year old S10. :)

- OS