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Posted: 9/28/2014 9:39:55 AM EDT
[#1]
There is no constructive intent, it is called constructive possession.
As long you you have the one pistol lower you can have as many short uppers as you would like. The pistol lower gives you a legal configuration. You do not need a way to match up all parts all at the same time, just a way to legally use the parts. |
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Posted: 9/28/2014 9:45:05 AM EDT
[#2]
Oops. thanks for the correction.
Good to know I'm in the clear. 
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Posted: 9/28/2014 3:34:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is no constructive intent, it is called constructive possession. As long you you have the one pistol lower you can have as many short uppers as you would like. The pistol lower gives you a legal configuration. You do not need a way to match up all parts all at the same time, just a way to legally use the parts. Yep. "An NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm or convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm". - OS |
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Posted: 9/28/2014 8:21:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is no constructive intent, it is called constructive possession. As long you you have the one pistol lower you can have as many short uppers as you would like. The pistol lower gives you a legal configuration. You do not need a way to match up all parts all at the same time, just a way to legally use the parts. I think the OP's question was whether having an AR pistol and an AR rifle lower would be a problem.... AFAIK, *IF* he had a rifle lower and ONLY shorter-than-rifle uppers he actually COULD have an issue, as he'd have no valid configuration for the rifle lower. Now OP stated he had several ARs, so as I understand it he'd have no issue since he'd have at least one "rifle" upper to combine with his rifle lower and at least one pistol lower to combine with his shorter-than-rifle upper(s). My point is just that the problem isn't confined to pistol lowers - having NO longer uppers and ANY rifle lower(s) would (as I understand it) run afoul of constructive possession just as easily as having ANY shorter uppers and NO pistol lower(s). IOW: pistol lowers aren't a magic do-not-go-to-jail token by themselves... |
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Posted: 9/28/2014 8:44:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the OP's question was whether having an AR pistol and an AR rifle lower would be a problem.... AFAIK, *IF* he had a rifle lower and ONLY shorter-than-rifle uppers he actually COULD have an issue, as he'd have no valid configuration for the rifle lower. Now OP stated he had several ARs, so as I understand it he'd have no issue since he'd have at least one "rifle" upper to combine with his rifle lower and at least one pistol lower to combine with his shorter-than-rifle upper(s). My point is just that the problem isn't confined to pistol lowers - having NO longer uppers and ANY rifle lower(s) would (as I understand it) run afoul of constructive possession just as easily as having ANY shorter uppers and NO pistol lower(s). IOW: pistol lowers aren't a magic do-not-go-to-jail token by themselves... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There is no constructive intent, it is called constructive possession. As long you you have the one pistol lower you can have as many short uppers as you would like. The pistol lower gives you a legal configuration. You do not need a way to match up all parts all at the same time, just a way to legally use the parts. I think the OP's question was whether having an AR pistol and an AR rifle lower would be a problem.... AFAIK, *IF* he had a rifle lower and ONLY shorter-than-rifle uppers he actually COULD have an issue, as he'd have no valid configuration for the rifle lower. Now OP stated he had several ARs, so as I understand it he'd have no issue since he'd have at least one "rifle" upper to combine with his rifle lower and at least one pistol lower to combine with his shorter-than-rifle upper(s). My point is just that the problem isn't confined to pistol lowers - having NO longer uppers and ANY rifle lower(s) would (as I understand it) run afoul of constructive possession just as easily as having ANY shorter uppers and NO pistol lower(s). IOW: pistol lowers aren't a magic do-not-go-to-jail token by themselves... I'm having a little trouble making sense of exaclty what you are saying, but a pistol lower for the most part can save a lot of hassle. You could legally own a rifle lower and all short uppers if you had a single pistol lower. You still have a legal configuration. The rifle could be for an on going build.
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Posted: 9/28/2014 8:57:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.... You could legally own a rifle lower and all short uppers if you had a single pistol lower. You still have a legal configuration. No, he's right. Without a 16" barrel in the mix, the rifle lower would have no useful purpose other than making an NFA firearm when possessed along with a short barrel and the parts to assemble it with the rifle lower. - OS |
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Posted: 9/28/2014 10:26:13 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You do not need a way to match up all parts all at the same time, just a way to legally use the parts. I think this is the crux of the question, and it's something I've wondered about myself. Suppose a person owns both AR rifles and AR pistols, along with several additional lower receivers for future builds that have no matching upper (let's say some are complete lowers with stocks and some are stripped). So long as all <16" uppers have a corresponding pistol lower, and there is at least one >16" upper present (whether already assembled on a complete rifle or not), there should be no problem with this, correct? There would still be more total lowers than uppers, but they would all have a useful purpose of being assembled with an appropriate upper into either a pistol or Title 1 rifle. Has the ATF issued any guidance about possessing Title 1 AR rifles, completed lowers with no uppers, and a registered SBR or MG (with a short upper)? If the "extra" lowers are ok in that case, they should be in this case also. |
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Posted: 9/28/2014 10:36:12 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think this is the crux of the question, and it's something I've wondered about myself. Suppose a person owns both AR rifles and AR pistols, along with several additional lower receivers for future builds that have no matching upper (let's say some are complete lowers with stocks and some are stripped). So long as all <16" uppers have a corresponding pistol lower, and there is at least one >16" upper present (whether already assembled on a complete rifle or not), there should be no problem with this, correct? There would still be more total lowers than uppers, but they would all have a useful purpose of being assembled with an appropriate upper into either a pistol or Title 1 rifle. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You do not need a way to match up all parts all at the same time, just a way to legally use the parts. I think this is the crux of the question, and it's something I've wondered about myself. Suppose a person owns both AR rifles and AR pistols, along with several additional lower receivers for future builds that have no matching upper (let's say some are complete lowers with stocks and some are stripped). So long as all <16" uppers have a corresponding pistol lower, and there is at least one >16" upper present (whether already assembled on a complete rifle or not), there should be no problem with this, correct? There would still be more total lowers than uppers, but they would all have a useful purpose of being assembled with an appropriate upper into either a pistol or Title 1 rifle. It's simpler than you make it out: Among everything you own "in close proximity" (which case law has determined as anywhere "within your control"), look at any part or component: - Is there an illegal config I could make with this? - If no, cool. - if yes, then - is there also a legal config I could make with this? - if yes, cool - if no, don't have it - OS |
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Posted: 9/29/2014 12:03:42 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's simpler than you make it out: Among everything you own "in close proximity" (which case law has determined as anywhere "within your control"), look at any part or component: - Is there an illegal config I could make with this? - If no, cool. - if yes, then - is there also a legal config I could make with this? - if yes, cool - if no, don't have it - OS Is there an illegal config that can be made? "Yes." Is there a legal config that could be made. "Yes" for the short barrel upper(s), namely, attach to pistol lower. "No" for the complete lower. The earlier post referenced this situation. If you interpret constructive possession from the perspective of the short barrel upper (i.e., is there a possible legal config for the upper), than this situation is fine. If you interpret constructive possession from the perspective of all the parts, including the lowers (i.e., is there a possible legal config for the rifle lower), then this situation is not kosher. |
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Posted: 9/29/2014 12:10:28 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK, so using the example of one or more short barrel uppers, one complete pistol lower, one complete rifle lower (no complete rifle uppers). Is there an illegal config that can be made? "Yes." Is there a legal config that could be made. "Yes" for the short barrel upper(s), namely, attach to pistol lower. "No" for the complete lower. The earlier post referenced this situation. If you interpret constructive possession from the perspective of the short barrel upper (i.e., is there a possible legal config for the upper), than this situation is fine. If you interpret constructive possession from the perspective of all the parts, including the lowers (i.e., is there a possible legal config for the rifle lower), then this situation is not kosher. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's simpler than you make it out: Among everything you own "in close proximity" (which case law has determined as anywhere "within your control"), look at any part or component: - Is there an illegal config I could make with this? - If no, cool. - if yes, then - is there also a legal config I could make with this? - if yes, cool - if no, don't have it - OS Is there an illegal config that can be made? "Yes." Is there a legal config that could be made. "Yes" for the short barrel upper(s), namely, attach to pistol lower. "No" for the complete lower. The earlier post referenced this situation. If you interpret constructive possession from the perspective of the short barrel upper (i.e., is there a possible legal config for the upper), than this situation is fine. If you interpret constructive possession from the perspective of all the parts, including the lowers (i.e., is there a possible legal config for the rifle lower), then this situation is not kosher. Would not need to have a complete rife upper in that scenario, but yes, as I said previously, without a 16" barrel anywhere in that scenario, the lower that was only legal to be made into a rifle would indeed have no "legal useful purpose", and if they wanted to play hard ball, you have "made" an NFA firearm by having it. Again,a complete rifle upper is unnecessary, as just a rifle barrel alone is capable of being used by rearranging existing parts from the other uppers to give the rifle lower a legal useful purpose. Meaning, assembled and unassembled parts all count. - OS |
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Posted: 9/29/2014 12:40:48 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would not need to have a complete rife upper in that scenario, but yes, as I said previously, without a 16" barrel anywhere in that scenario, the lower that was only legal to be made into a rifle would indeed have no "legal useful purpose", and if they wanted to play hard ball, you have "made" an NFA firearm by having it. Again,a complete rifle upper is unnecessary, as just a rifle barrel alone is capable of being used by rearranging existing parts from the other uppers to give the rifle lower a legal useful purpose. Meaning, assembled and unassembled parts all count. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's simpler than you make it out: Among everything you own "in close proximity" (which case law has determined as anywhere "within your control"), look at any part or component: - Is there an illegal config I could make with this? - If no, cool. - if yes, then - is there also a legal config I could make with this? - if yes, cool - if no, don't have it - OS Is there an illegal config that can be made? "Yes." Is there a legal config that could be made. "Yes" for the short barrel upper(s), namely, attach to pistol lower. "No" for the complete lower. The earlier post referenced this situation. If you interpret constructive possession from the perspective of the short barrel upper (i.e., is there a possible legal config for the upper), than this situation is fine. If you interpret constructive possession from the perspective of all the parts, including the lowers (i.e., is there a possible legal config for the rifle lower), then this situation is not kosher. Would not need to have a complete rife upper in that scenario, but yes, as I said previously, without a 16" barrel anywhere in that scenario, the lower that was only legal to be made into a rifle would indeed have no "legal useful purpose", and if they wanted to play hard ball, you have "made" an NFA firearm by having it. Again,a complete rifle upper is unnecessary, as just a rifle barrel alone is capable of being used by rearranging existing parts from the other uppers to give the rifle lower a legal useful purpose. Meaning, assembled and unassembled parts all count. - OS With the recent popularity of AR pistols, I can imagine quite a lot of people would inadvertently end up in constructive possession. Good old NFA, making felons out of people who have harmed no one. We should not have to depend on non-enforcement or difficulty-in-detection or law enforcement compassion to avoid prison for this. Just another reason to repeal that silly law. |
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Posted: 9/29/2014 12:49:11 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good point. With the recent popularity of AR pistols, I can imagine quite a lot of people would inadvertently end up in constructive possession. Good old NFA, making felons out of people who have harmed no one. We should not have to depend on non-enforcement or difficulty-in-detection or law enforcement compassion to avoid prison for this. Just another reason to repeal that silly law. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's simpler than you make it out: Among everything you own "in close proximity" (which case law has determined as anywhere "within your control"), look at any part or component: - Is there an illegal config I could make with this? - If no, cool. - if yes, then - is there also a legal config I could make with this? - if yes, cool - if no, don't have it - OS Is there an illegal config that can be made? "Yes." Is there a legal config that could be made. "Yes" for the short barrel upper(s), namely, attach to pistol lower. "No" for the complete lower. The earlier post referenced this situation. If you interpret constructive possession from the perspective of the short barrel upper (i.e., is there a possible legal config for the upper), than this situation is fine. If you interpret constructive possession from the perspective of all the parts, including the lowers (i.e., is there a possible legal config for the rifle lower), then this situation is not kosher. Would not need to have a complete rife upper in that scenario, but yes, as I said previously, without a 16" barrel anywhere in that scenario, the lower that was only legal to be made into a rifle would indeed have no "legal useful purpose", and if they wanted to play hard ball, you have "made" an NFA firearm by having it. Again,a complete rifle upper is unnecessary, as just a rifle barrel alone is capable of being used by rearranging existing parts from the other uppers to give the rifle lower a legal useful purpose. Meaning, assembled and unassembled parts all count. - OS With the recent popularity of AR pistols, I can imagine quite a lot of people would inadvertently end up in constructive possession. Good old NFA, making felons out of people who have harmed no one. We should not have to depend on non-enforcement or difficulty-in-detection or law enforcement compassion to avoid prison for this. Just another reason to repeal that silly law. Oh, I'd say that hardly anyone who has a complete AR pistol is in violation. Very few would have a "rifle only" lower around by itself. I'd posit 99%+ would have a complete AR rifle. - OS |
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Posted: 9/29/2014 2:24:39 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh, I'd say that hardly anyone who has a complete AR pistol is in violation. Very few would have a "rifle only" lower around by itself. I'd posit 99%+ would have a complete AR rifle. - OS Even a tiny proportion of pistol owners selling/trading away their 16" barrels could end up being lots of people becoming unintentional felons. |
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Posted: 9/29/2014 9:13:50 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Again,a complete rifle upper is unnecessary, as just a rifle barrel alone is capable of being used by rearranging existing parts from the other uppers to give the rifle lower a legal useful purpose. Meaning, assembled and unassembled parts all count. I agree with this interpretation (though IANAL) and that my description above was somewhat overly restrictive. I believe though that several responses to this thread point out the validity of my concern! Safest answer is the classic ARFCOM: "Buy them all!" ...and yes, my personal thought would be to keep a complete "rifle" and a complete "pistol" around to ensure one has legit configs for any length barrel/upper.
Richard |
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Posted: 9/29/2014 2:48:47 PM EDT
[#15]
ok, so my understanding from all this
under my example: I have one complete ar rifle, and have another one that im about to finish, so technically 2 complete uppers by the end of next week and if i have a stripped lower, that i will build as a pistol, with marked pistol lower and buffer tube, and i have completed the second riffle, i would technically not be committing a felony right? 
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Posted: 9/29/2014 3:09:49 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ok, so my understanding from all this under my example: I have one complete ar rifle, and have another one that im about to finish, so technically 2 complete uppers by the end of next week and if i have a stripped lower, that i will build as a pistol, with marked pistol lower and buffer tube, and i have completed the second riffle, i would technically not be committing a felony right? The 'pistol' marking on the lower is irrelevant. |
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Posted: 9/29/2014 3:34:42 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not only could you assemble any of these parts into a legal configuration, there is no illegal configuration possible since you don't have a short barrel. Even when you do acquire a short barrel, you're still fine as there is a legal configuration you could make with any of the parts. The 'pistol' marking on the lower is irrelevant. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
ok, so my understanding from all this under my example: I have one complete ar rifle, and have another one that im about to finish, so technically 2 complete uppers by the end of next week and if i have a stripped lower, that i will build as a pistol, with marked pistol lower and buffer tube, and i have completed the second riffle, i would technically not be committing a felony right? The 'pistol' marking on the lower is irrelevant. Thanks that sums it up, and well i kinda figured the markings were irrelevant, i bought it as a deal for 150.00 complete from a local smith |
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Posted: 9/29/2014 3:54:52 PM EDT
[#18]
So, when the ATF makes their weekly inspections, your shit is going to look pretty weak.
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