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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 7/6/2013 7:33:47 AM EDT
I would like to add this poll to the AR Pistol Category to help myself out as well as others that are thinking about and/or building their first AR Pistol. I will be using this gun strictly for fun, however, far in the future I may get my stamp and convert it to an SBR. This should be a good way of answering the most common question about pistol builds in a simple way.
Link Posted: 7/6/2013 11:20:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2013 1:50:05 PM EDT by urbanredneck]
11.5 or 10.5 are really practical SBR lengths. Short = loud with no silencer.

And check some charts for bullet velocities from the different lengths. Want to keep it sonic at 50 or 100 yards? I went with 11.5" on my pistol

But, you might want to consider shorter if you going to suppress...
Link Posted: 7/8/2013 5:13:21 PM EDT
Voted 7.5 but I have it on a pistol with a kx3, plus a 8.2 300 BO on a pistol. The 11.5 resides on a sbr suppressed.
Link Posted: 7/8/2013 5:50:49 PM EDT
8.2/8.5 .300 BLK. with suppressor.
Link Posted: 7/9/2013 3:48:54 PM EDT
Thanks for the feedback guys! Keep it coming!
Link Posted: 7/10/2013 11:59:22 AM EDT


Just finishing up a new one 10.5" Rainier Arms Select with their version of the 11" Evolution hand guard. Future SBR. Next will probaly be 11.5" or 12" in 5,56 and then a 7.5" in 9mm.
Link Posted: 7/10/2013 4:57:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2013 4:57:50 PM EDT by AlexBosco]
I voted my most accurate 11.5 inch Colt upper on my RRA lower.


Link Posted: 7/11/2013 1:46:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AlexBosco:
I voted my most accurate 11.5 inch Colt upper on my RRA lower.


http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag159/alessandrorbosco/IMG_1896_zps64576ad7.jpg

where did you get that sb15? Did you backorder it from sig?
Link Posted: 7/11/2013 8:06:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AlexBosco:
I voted my most accurate 11.5 inch Colt upper on my RRA lower.


http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag159/alessandrorbosco/IMG_1896_zps64576ad7.jpg


Is that a vertical grip on your pistol?
Link Posted: 7/11/2013 8:09:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By urbanredneck:
And check some charts for bullet velocities from the different lengths. Want to keep it sonic at 50 or 100 yards?


Are you trying to say that a short barrel will cause the bullet to go subsonic at 50-100yd?
Link Posted: 7/11/2013 8:10:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2013 8:29:29 PM EDT by RDTCU]
Originally Posted By dalepres:
Originally Posted By AlexBosco:
I voted my most accurate 11.5 inch Colt upper on my RRA lower.


Is that a vertical grip on your pistol?


I di'n't see nuffin...

Posting possibly illegal crap on the internet is a great idea...
Link Posted: 7/11/2013 8:26:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2013 8:42:44 PM EDT by OhShoot]
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Originally Posted By dalepres:
Originally Posted By AlexBosco:
I voted my most accurate 11.5 inch Colt upper on my RRA lower.


Is that a vertical grip on your pistol?


I di'n't see nuffin...

Posting illegal crap on the internet is a great idea...


With the 11.5" barrel and full length receiver extension, it's likely legal 26". If the flash hider is permanently attached, it would be for sure.

- OS
Link Posted: 7/12/2013 6:42:26 AM EDT
You know, sometimes I think you guys dont read the website articles and posts. We've discussed overall length of weapon a million times and yet we still get people saying it's not a good idea to post illegal weapons online. For those of you who know how to read here is the link that describes why placing a vertical foregrip on a barrel of 11.5 inches (giving the overall length of weapon over 26 inches) legal.

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html
Link Posted: 7/12/2013 6:47:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AlexBosco:
You know, sometimes I think you guys dont read the website articles and posts. We've discussed overall length of weapon a million times and yet we still get people saying it's not a good idea to post illegal weapons online. For those of you who know how to read here is the link that describes why placing a vertical foregrip on a barrel of 11.5 inches (giving the overall length of weapon over 26 inches) legal.

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html


So how long is it from the rear of the bare pistol tube to the end of the muzzle threads? If it's over 26", nevermind.

(But why have a VFG with the fancy arm strap thingy? )
Link Posted: 7/12/2013 7:44:51 AM EDT
It is over 26 inches in length. That upper was used with a friend of mine who lost his arm and leg in an IED in Iraq. We were doing testing from 7 inch uppers to 14.5 inch using different type sights at different ranges. That upper is normally mounted on one of our full auto M16 A2's...When my buddy was testing the weapon we removed the foregrip and added a viridian green laser/light.
Link Posted: 7/12/2013 1:05:39 PM EDT
where did you get that sb15?
Link Posted: 7/12/2013 1:15:25 PM EDT
From Sig
Link Posted: 7/13/2013 9:47:32 PM EDT
i think the word pistol should mean a small barrel
Link Posted: 7/14/2013 4:49:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/14/2013 4:52:22 AM EDT by TBoneDetroit]
Voted 7.5 inch because that's what I have on mine (also with a KX3). A 10.5 inch might be more practical/better for ballistics, but I needed to remain under 26 inch in order to be able to carry it legally in Michigan as a pistol. Could maybe be under at 10.5 inch without the muzzle device (which should not count since it's neither pinned nor welded, the established method for it to count in LOA WRT SBRs). But that is a gray area I didn't want to delve into (I may build another in the future to explore the 10.5 inch).

Does anyone have a link to some ballistics charts for the 7.5 vs the 14.3 or others?

Link Posted: 7/14/2013 7:05:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/14/2013 7:20:59 PM EDT by DocMike]
I went with a bit of old school 11.5" for mine. I'd really like to SBR it but for now living in the Republik of Illinois I'll just have to settle for a pistol.



Doc
Link Posted: 7/14/2013 7:35:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/14/2013 7:36:01 PM EDT by peligro113]
11.5 if you are going to run a silencer if not 7.5



Link Posted: 7/14/2013 7:40:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By peligro113:
11.5 if you are going to run a silencer if not 7.5

<a href="http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/peligro113/media/Guns/DSCF0056.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z381/peligro113/Guns/DSCF0056.jpg</a>

http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=42089&prev=1


You can safely run a .308 can on a 7.5", which is handy if you've only got one rifle can
Link Posted: 7/16/2013 2:14:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OhShoot:
With the 11.5" barrel and full length receiver extension, it's likely legal 26". If the flash hider is permanently attached, it would be for sure.

Why would you need to permanently attach the flash hider? That only applies when you want to count the FH as part of the barrel. You don't permanently attach your buffer tube, do you? And it still counts toward your OAL.
Link Posted: 7/16/2013 3:14:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
Originally Posted By OhShoot:
With the 11.5" barrel and full length receiver extension, it's likely legal 26". If the flash hider is permanently attached, it would be for sure.

Why would you need to permanently attach the flash hider? That only applies when you want to count the FH as part of the barrel. You don't permanently attach your buffer tube, do you? And it still counts toward your OAL.


So he could get the OAL greater than 26" to classify the gun as a firearm so he can utilize a VFG legally. If the OAL is greater than 26" without the muzzle device then the muzzle device wouldn't have to be pinned.
Link Posted: 7/16/2013 3:38:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LastRites:
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
Originally Posted By OhShoot:
With the 11.5" barrel and full length receiver extension, it's likely legal 26". If the flash hider is permanently attached, it would be for sure.

Why would you need to permanently attach the flash hider? That only applies when you want to count the FH as part of the barrel. You don't permanently attach your buffer tube, do you? And it still counts toward your OAL.


So he could get the OAL greater than 26" to classify the gun as a firearm so he can utilize a VFG legally. If the OAL is greater than 26" without the muzzle device then the muzzle device wouldn't have to be pinned.


Yep, and about the buffer tube, it's required for the gun to function, unlike the muzzle device, that's the difference.
Link Posted: 7/16/2013 3:40:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2013 3:47:01 AM EDT by GarrettJ]
Originally Posted By LastRites:
So he could get the OAL greater than 26" to classify the gun as a firearm so he can utilize a VFG legally. If the OAL is greater than 26" without the muzzle device then the muzzle device wouldn't have to be pinned.


I understand that. But why would the muzzle device need to be permanently attached to be considered in the OAL measurement? Nothing else on the gun is "permanently attached".

If you are trying to bring the total length of the barrel to over 16", it makes sense that you have to permanently attach whatever extension you are using. ATF has published guidance on how to do this to their satisfaction.

But there is no requirement when measuring for overall length that any attachments be "permanent", whether on the muzzle, back end, or anywhere else. Otherwise you could remove the buttstock from a number of rifles and get a functioning firearm less than 26".
Link Posted: 7/16/2013 6:35:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Originally Posted By LastRites:
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
Originally Posted By OhShoot:
With the 11.5" barrel and full length receiver extension, it's likely legal 26". If the flash hider is permanently attached, it would be for sure.

Why would you need to permanently attach the flash hider? That only applies when you want to count the FH as part of the barrel. You don't permanently attach your buffer tube, do you? And it still counts toward your OAL.


So he could get the OAL greater than 26" to classify the gun as a firearm so he can utilize a VFG legally. If the OAL is greater than 26" without the muzzle device then the muzzle device wouldn't have to be pinned.


Yep, and about the buffer tube, it's required for the gun to function, unlike the muzzle device, that's the difference.


Exactly, the muzzle device is considered an accessory, much like the SB15. Just to clarify as well; in most cases (depends which buffer tube you use) when adding a barrel length of 11.5 inches, the overall length of the weapon will be over 26 inches.
Link Posted: 7/16/2013 11:15:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
.... But why would the muzzle device need to be permanently attached to be considered in the OAL measurement? ...


Because ATF has ruled so -- must be pinned/welded in same manner described for barrel measurement alone to also count in OAL.

If you mean the logic, that's another matter, and little sense in debating.

- OS
Link Posted: 7/16/2013 12:24:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OhShoot:
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
.... But why would the muzzle device need to be permanently attached to be considered in the OAL measurement? ...


Because ATF has ruled so -- must be pinned/welded in same manner described for barrel measurement alone to also count in OAL.

If you mean the logic, that's another matter, and little sense in debating.

I understand about ATF logic, or the lack thereof.

I have not seen anything published by ATF, relating to OAL measurement and muzzle attachments. (not saying it's not out there, I've just never seen it). Only with regards to barrel length measurements.

Do you have a reference number to a relevant ATF ruling, so I can better educate myself?
Link Posted: 7/16/2013 1:26:45 PM EDT
The point is that "permanently" attaching a muzzle device makes it part of the barrel and it will be included in the OAL. It doesn't even have to have a function. Look at Tactical Solutions barrel for the 10/22 to see how you can take it to interesting lengths (no pun intended.)
Link Posted: 7/16/2013 2:13:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2013 2:16:58 PM EDT by williewvr]
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Originally Posted By peligro113:
11.5 if you are going to run a silencer if not 7.5

<a href="http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/peligro113/media/Guns/DSCF0056.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z381/peligro113/Guns/DSCF0056.jpg</a>

http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=42089&prev=1


You can safely run a .308 can on a 7.5", which is handy if you've only got one rifle can


that would depend on the can, and your definition of "safely". Will it blow up, no, but the accelerated wear from a short barrel and a can isn't something a lot of us want.
A .308 can isn't cheap and replacing baffles isn't covered under warranty on most supp. if you run a short barrel
Link Posted: 7/16/2013 3:48:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By williewvr:
Originally Posted By RDTCU:
Originally Posted By peligro113:
11.5 if you are going to run a silencer if not 7.5

<a href="http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/peligro113/media/Guns/DSCF0056.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z381/peligro113/Guns/DSCF0056.jpg</a>

http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=42089&prev=1


You can safely run a .308 can on a 7.5", which is handy if you've only got one rifle can


that would depend on the can, and your definition of "safely". Will it blow up, no, but the accelerated wear from a short barrel and a can isn't something a lot of us want.
A .308 can isn't cheap and replacing baffles isn't covered under warranty on most supp. if you run a short barrel


The .308 can is dealing with 1/3 the gas it's designed for, and if you run a brake mount to take the edge off the blast baffle, it'll last forever.

I know of several people with shorties and .308 cans with several thousand rounds through them with no unusual wear.
Link Posted: 7/16/2013 5:02:53 PM EDT
The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the
furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and
measured.


From here:
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf
Link Posted: 7/16/2013 5:34:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2013 5:46:14 PM EDT by GarrettJ]
Originally Posted By Rick_A:
The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device...


From here:
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

And that relates to how you need to permanently attach the muzzle device if you want it included in the barrel length. I'm not disputing that. But it does not say you need anything "permanently attached" to be included in overall length.

I realize we're veering a little away from the OP's question. I'll start another thread about OAL measurements and attachments.

So to get back on topic here, I have an 11.5" barrel and had a 7.5". The 7.5 was fun briefly, but not that great. It would occasionally rip rims off cases. I eventually sold it off, and don't miss it.

The 11.5" barrel is a much better length. You can put most cans on it without worrying about tearing up the guts, and you still end up with a shorter package than a 20" rifle.

Since moving to a non-SBR state, the 11.5" upper got moved to a pistol lower. To be honest, AR15 pistols don't do much for me, so the shorty doesn't get shot much any more. I did pull it out today and play with it a little, but I enjoyed shooting a rifle with a buttstock more.

Link Posted: 7/16/2013 8:58:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2013 9:01:25 PM EDT by OhShoot]
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
Originally Posted By OhShoot:
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
.... But why would the muzzle device need to be permanently attached to be considered in the OAL measurement? ...


Because ATF has ruled so -- must be pinned/welded in same manner described for barrel measurement alone to also count in OAL.

If you mean the logic, that's another matter, and little sense in debating.

I understand about ATF logic, or the lack thereof.

I have not seen anything published by ATF, relating to OAL measurement and muzzle attachments. (not saying it's not out there, I've just never seen it). Only with regards to barrel length measurements.

Do you have a reference number to a relevant ATF ruling, so I can better educate myself?


Well, as far as the actual logic, it sort of makes sense to me, given the nonsense of a short barreled rifle being illegal in the first place, that is. Meaning, if only a pinned/welded muzzle device can extend legal length of barrel, then if the barrel plus muzzle device are both needed to make OAL length also, it would have to be same.

At any rate, here is a letter with the ruling, but can't point you to anyplace it is published specifically other than the letter:

2nd post on this page:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/525036_Request___Scans_of_any_letters_from_the_BATFE__that_pertain_to_AR_pistols.html&page=3

Note: For some reason my FireFox will not show the .png images of the letter, but Internet Explorer does.

- OS



Link Posted: 7/17/2013 1:56:49 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AlexBosco:
I voted my most accurate 11.5 inch Colt upper on my RRA lower.


http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag159/alessandrorbosco/IMG_1896_zps64576ad7.jpg
View Quote


DAMN YOU! I just fent on one of the Sig Braces. I wanted one but that pic put me over the top so I ordered it. How long did it take for them to deliver?
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