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Posted: 6/4/2010 4:22:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: Do you have to buy a pistol specific lowe to run your ar as a pistol? Or can you just take the stock off of a carbine, put a shorter barrel on it and call it a pistol? I'm no expert on this, but I researched the hell out of it before I built one.. I believe that once the lower has a stock on it, it'll always a rifle, the FFL can transfer it as "other" but the manufacture of it prolly has it listed an a rifle lower or something if it was produced with the buttstock from factory.. I picked up a stripped lower and built mine that way, so as there's no questions.. |
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Posted: 6/4/2010 4:23:38 PM EDT
[#2]
This is a fine line to straddle. Check your local laws before you do anything based on info from the web. That said, it is generally accepted that you can use any NEW NEVER BEFORE ASSEMBLED lower to make a pistol. I am in the process of making one myself and I chose to purchase a lower specifically marked as pistol to avoid (hopefully) any legal issues. Another thing to consider is if your lower was described as a rifle on your form when your FFL delivered it to you. Lowers are cheap, $100-200 for a good quality lower so I recommend you play it safe and buy a new one. Beats getting passed around for a couple packs of cigarettes for 10+ years...
If you take a rifle lower, put a shorter than 16" barrel on it, even without a stock, it is still a rifle and therefore a SBR officially. |
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Posted: 6/4/2010 5:50:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Do you have to buy a pistol specific lowe to run your ar as a pistol? Or can you just take the stock off of a carbine, put a shorter barrel on it and call it a pistol? You can build a pistol out of any VIRGIN lower. If it has ever had a stock on it, it is a rifle and no matter how it may be transferred after that, the only legal way to put a short barrel on it is to SBR it. The ATFE has made it perfectly clear, once you put a stock on it, it is a rifle from that point on and can never be made into a legal pistol, only SBRs. But to build a pistol from the ground up, buy any stripped virgin lower receiver and build a pistol. It does NOT have to be engraved "pistol." It should be marked on the 4473 as "other' and you are good to go, but you cannot buy a lower that has at one time been a rifle and simply have the stripped lower listed as "other" and be done with it. Things do not work that way, the lower must be new and virgin or a pistol to begin with and never had a stock put on it. |
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Posted: 6/5/2010 7:41:31 AM EDT
[#4]
Thanks guys, although not what i wanted to hear but good thing i asked. I really do wish though that "those people" would realize that evil doers will be just as lethal and get their hands on whatever they need no matter what rules they come up with.
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Posted: 6/5/2010 1:58:16 PM EDT
[#5]
As a lawyer I will tell you go the safest route and just buy a lower marked pistol and in your state follow the procedures to register it as a pistol when you buy that new lower.
You can also buy a rilfe lower and have pistol engraved on it and then buy it new. |
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Posted: 6/5/2010 2:34:34 PM EDT
[#6]
I was wondering about this too. I live in Missouri, and I bought a new VIRGIN stripped lower from a new local company the other day. The lady who sold said she thought I had to register or engrave it as a pistol lower even though it had never been assembled on anything... I say nay.. So I went to a gun show today and talked to the only class 3 dealer (I figure they know a thing or two) there and told him I bought a new stripped lower and he said that I could build a space ship out of it if I wanted to. He said they are sold as a lower receiver and that I could build whatever out of it. So I went down a booth and bought a DPMS Kitty flattop, pistol buffer kit, parts kit, and now all I am short of is a bolt. Ready to rock by next weekend...
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Posted: 6/5/2010 5:54:09 PM EDT
[#7]
Lawyer or not, engraving it as "PISTOL" does not mean a damned thing. Have you ever seen any pistol with the word "PISTOL" engraved on it? Show me one place in any ATFE code, rule, or idle banter where they say you must, need, or is recommended you have your lower engraved "PSITOL." PURE BS only done by the tin-hat crowd!
Engrave it if you want but it offers you ZERO protection. There is NO legal requirement to do so. And engraved "PISTOL" or not, you put a stock on it, even for a second, and legally it is a rifle (and there is a LOT of ATFE documentation to back that up), but I guess you could send it back, have the "PISTOL" word crossed out and the word "RIFLE" engraved. If you buy into the BS idea that you need to have your lower engraved "PISTOL" then you had damned well better get your rifles engraved "RIFLE" too. It makes about as much since. |
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Posted: 6/6/2010 2:42:27 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Lawyer or not, engraving it as "PISTOL" does not mean a damned thing. Have you ever seen any pistol with the word "PISTOL" engraved on it? Show me one place in any ATFE code, rule, or idle banter where they say you must, need, or is recommended you have your lower engraved "PSITOL." PURE BS only done by the tin-hat crowd! Engrave it if you want but it offers you ZERO protection. There is NO legal requirement to do so. And engraved "PISTOL" or not, you put a stock on it, even for a second, and legally it is a rifle (and there is a LOT of ATFE documentation to back that up), but I guess you could send it back, have the "PISTOL" word crossed out and the word "RIFLE" engraved. If you buy into the BS idea that you need to have your lower engraved "PISTOL" then you had damned well better get your rifles engraved "RIFLE" too. It makes about as much since. If you transfer a virgin lower with PISTOL engraved or with PISTOL in rollmarks, if you ever get investigated by the ATF or any other LEA, it is great evidence of your actions, the FFL's actions, and the manufacturer's actions (especially if they also engrave). It has to be part of the purchase process for a new virgin lower - then it helps with your defense. Adding it after the transfer means nothing and like you said, add a stock to it, and then its a rifle. It's all a matter of documenting your position. |
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Posted: 6/7/2010 3:25:33 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Do you have to buy a pistol specific lowe to run your ar as a pistol? Or can you just take the stock off of a carbine, put a shorter barrel on it and call it a pistol? you dont have to buy a "pistol" specific lower you can make a pistol on any lower as long as it has NEVER been stocked as a rifle. in short you can NOT take the stock off a rifle and put a short barrel on it. this archived thread might help. http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=465457 edit: the letter appears huge so you might have to zoom out, and it might be a good thing to print out and keep |
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Posted: 6/7/2010 1:22:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Lawyer or not, engraving it as "PISTOL" does not mean a damned thing. Have you ever seen any pistol with the word "PISTOL" engraved on it? Show me one place in any ATFE code, rule, or idle banter where they say you must, need, or is recommended you have your lower engraved "PSITOL." PURE BS only done by the tin-hat crowd! Engrave it if you want but it offers you ZERO protection. There is NO legal requirement to do so. And engraved "PISTOL" or not, you put a stock on it, even for a second, and legally it is a rifle (and there is a LOT of ATFE documentation to back that up), but I guess you could send it back, have the "PISTOL" word crossed out and the word "RIFLE" engraved. If you buy into the BS idea that you need to have your lower engraved "PISTOL" then you had damned well better get your rifles engraved "RIFLE" too. It makes about as much since. I admit I've seen no pistol with 'pistol' engraved on it. I admit again that it has nothing to do with BATF rules/regulations. There is no requirement........period The word 'Pistol' means absolutely nothing, I agree, but a virgin lower engraved with 'Pistol' does show intent, and intent could be the name of the game. I'm having mine engraved for that reason, and just cause I want to. Thats not BS, and I do not own a tin hat. The BATF talks a lot about 'intent' |
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Posted: 6/7/2010 7:21:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Maybe then, it would be best to engrave it with "PISTOL INTENT".
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Posted: 6/8/2010 4:50:54 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Maybe then, it would be best to engrave it with "PISTOL INTENT". I would say No, but if thats what you want? I'm with you... 
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Posted: 6/8/2010 6:44:42 AM EDT
[#13]
Why not go one step further and engrave what store you bought it at,date time and the fact it is registered as other for refrence?
No Seriously people put away the tin foil!
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Posted: 6/8/2010 8:53:20 AM EDT
[#14]
Guys, when the ATF or the IRS comes, it's serious.
They do mean business and federal law does preempt state law on some of these matters. Guess you haven't seen an FFL get incinerated. Ugly. Best to protect yourself and not get confused about which lower is for rifles and which is for pistols. Marking seems the most logical and safe method to be 100% certain. |
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Posted: 6/8/2010 9:34:52 AM EDT
[#15]
Stripped virgin receiver + "other" = build what you want.
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Posted: 6/8/2010 11:06:33 AM EDT
[#16]
There was also a letter from the ATF that stated that a FACTORY COMPLETE LOWER RECIEVER ONLY with NO upper, is also not a rifle or SBR or pistol. It is just a lower receiver, and should be transferred as "other". You can then take the stock off, and put a pistol upper on.......but never the stock unless you go the SBR($200) or rifle(once and forever) route.
To clarify, it has to be A FACTORY COMPLETE LOWER, not just any complete lower that you can not verify at the factory that it left only as a complete lower (as a CYA measure). ME, personally, I am going the stripped lower route as ans extra safety measure from the Man. 
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Posted: 6/8/2010 1:21:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
There was also a letter from the ATF that stated that a FACTORY COMPLETE LOWER RECIEVER ONLY with NO upper, is also not a rifle or SBR or pistol. It is just a lower receiver, and should be transferred as "other". You can then take the stock off, and put a pistol upper on.......but never the stock unless you go the SBR($200) or rifle(once and forever) route. So what your saying is I can buy this, Spikes AR15 lower w/buttstock transfer it as "other", take it home, replace the stock with a pistol legal buffer tube, pistol upper and be GTG? I thought once it had a buttstock attached it could never be converted into a pistol? Doesn't the fact of it sporting a stock mean it is intended to be a rifle? Brad |
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Posted: 6/8/2010 1:38:24 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
There was also a letter from the ATF that stated that a FACTORY COMPLETE LOWER RECIEVER ONLY with NO upper, is also not a rifle or SBR or pistol. It is just a lower receiver, and should be transferred as "other". You can then take the stock off, and put a pistol upper on.......but never the stock unless you go the SBR($200) or rifle(once and forever) route. So what your saying is I can buy this, Spikes AR15 lower w/buttstock transfer it as "other", take it home, replace the stock with a pistol legal buffer tube, pistol upper and be GTG? I thought once it had a buttstock attached it could never be converted into a pistol? Doesn't the fact of it sporting a stock mean it is intended to be a rifle? Reading is fundamental. There can never have been a stock on the virgin lower. You are only legal with a stripped virgin lower. Brad |
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Posted: 6/8/2010 2:10:15 PM EDT
[#19]
STRIPPED LOWER !!!! I would just go with that. No questions. Just a stripped lower, save the money on the buttstock if you are gonna take it off.
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Posted: 6/8/2010 7:16:52 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Reading is fundamental. There can never have been a stock on the virgin lower. You are only legal with a stripped virgin lower. I know this. It's amazing WTF people post on here.......... Brad |
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Posted: 6/8/2010 7:53:57 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Quoted: Reading is fundamental. There can never have been a stock on the virgin lower. You are only legal with a stripped virgin lower. I know this. It's amazing WTF people post on here.......... Brad Except if it is a Thompson Center Contender. They can be swapped back an forth, from pistol to rifle, as long as if the receiver has a stock, then it must also have a 16" + barrel. And you purchased all the pieces as a factory 'kit', not a collection of pieces, put together over a period of time. WTF ? Typical .gov bullshit. If I had lots of $$$, I would call discrimination on this crap. but i'm broke, so  |
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Posted: 6/9/2010 10:13:10 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Lawyer or not, engraving it as "PISTOL" does not mean a damned thing. Have you ever seen any pistol with the word "PISTOL" engraved on it? Show me one place in any ATFE code, rule, or idle banter where they say you must, need, or is recommended you have your lower engraved "PSITOL." PURE BS only done by the tin-hat crowd! Engrave it if you want but it offers you ZERO protection. There is NO legal requirement to do so. And engraved "PISTOL" or not, you put a stock on it, even for a second, and legally it is a rifle (and there is a LOT of ATFE documentation to back that up), but I guess you could send it back, have the "PISTOL" word crossed out and the word "RIFLE" engraved. If you buy into the BS idea that you need to have your lower engraved "PISTOL" then you had damned well better get your rifles engraved "RIFLE" too. It makes about as much since. I admit I've seen no pistol with 'pistol' engraved on it. I admit again that it has nothing to do with BATF rules/regulations. There is no requirement........period The word 'Pistol' means absolutely nothing, I agree, but a virgin lower engraved with 'Pistol' does show intent, and intent could be the name of the game. Got my lower back from Ident Marking this morning. This is a virgin lower marked pistol, never been assembled in to any thing. I'm going to build a KISS pistol, with a 22 upper first and then a .223 upper, attempting to use parts on hand with just a few purchases. I'll post pictures when I get it assembled. 
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Posted: 6/10/2010 12:10:02 PM EDT
[#23]
I have seen some Spikes lowers with full auto engravings on the safey. Does that mean I can buy one and make it into a machine gun?
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Posted: 6/19/2010 10:10:20 PM EDT
[#24]
Engraving pistol is pointless. If you don't live in a state (like WA) that has a pistol specific form with a box for "receiver only" for buying a pistol receiver, then there is no record at all of what you bought other than "other" checked on the 4473, and "receiver" on the description. Pistol engraving or not, there will be a check done all the way from the manufacturer to the dealer to show it hadn't been manufactured into a long gun (rifle or shotgun... and yes there is that .410 conversion). There is no more "both" on the form, and there is no marking more than one box when buying just a receiver.
If you do have a state form like we do, then it's still pointless because the state and/or dealer will have a record of selling you a pistol receiver. No different than buying any other handgun receiver. People like to over think things too much. |
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Posted: 6/20/2010 6:31:53 AM EDT
[#25]
I just made sure mine was registered as a Pistol lower from the manufacturer. Those are the books that will be checked. And my lower is not marked "Pistol". I wouldn't want it to be as I might SBR it one day.
A virgin receiver transferred as "other" is all you need. If an L.E.O. is going to take possession of the weapon until it's checked out, it doesn't matter what it's marked. Dave |
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Posted: 6/20/2010 7:11:50 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
If an L.E.O. is going to take possession of the weapon until it's checked out, it doesn't matter what it's marked. Dave Does not get much simpler than that! |
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Posted: 6/20/2010 8:57:32 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Lawyer or not, engraving it as "PISTOL" does not mean a damned thing. Have you ever seen any pistol with the word "PISTOL" engraved on it? Show me one place in any ATFE code, rule, or idle banter where they say you must, need, or is recommended you have your lower engraved "PSITOL." PURE BS only done by the tin-hat crowd! Engrave it if you want but it offers you ZERO protection. There is NO legal requirement to do so. And engraved "PISTOL" or not, you put a stock on it, even for a second, and legally it is a rifle (and there is a LOT of ATFE documentation to back that up), but I guess you could send it back, have the "PISTOL" word crossed out and the word "RIFLE" engraved. If you buy into the BS idea that you need to have your lower engraved "PISTOL" then you had damned well better get your rifles engraved "RIFLE" too. It makes about as much since. My SiG-556 Pistol came with "Pistol" stamped into the receiver ... I agree engraving "Pistol" is not necessary and there is nothing in the law that states it as a requirement. |
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Posted: 6/20/2010 4:44:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Reading is fundamental. There can never have been a stock on the virgin lower. You are only legal with a stripped virgin lower. I know this. It's amazing WTF people post on here.......... Brad So quote the law or regulation that proves this so people won't think you are mistaken. |
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Posted: 6/20/2010 6:32:36 PM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 6/20/2010 6:55:50 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m446/bdsmchs/ARpistolreceiverletter-page1-web.jpg http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m446/bdsmchs/ARpistolreceiverletter-page2-web.jpg I was wondering when someone was going to post this letter. When I decided I was going to build a pistol I researched every last bit of info I could find on the web and made copies of every letter I found. Now that I have this library of info it is amazing to me when I see so many people talking out thier ass. |
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Posted: 6/20/2010 11:06:31 PM EDT
[#31]
I was hoping someone would post that letter since I lost mine when my last hard drive crashed. As long as the receiver has never been built into a complete long gun, you can do what you want with it. So yeah, bet that completed, stocked, lower, remove the stock and tube, and build a pistol out of it. It is not a long gun (rifle or shotgun), nor is it a pistol or handgun, until... and not one damn second before, it is assembled. Barrel, receiver, and stock.
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