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Posted: 8/6/2017 3:09:26 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Hard to tell on my phone but the lowers look just like DPMS g2 lowers. I hope they are %100 compatible. We already have several new, small frame patterns, it would be great for parts availability if several manufacturers were using the same specs. that would be awesome, if all DMPS pattern stuff fit and worked correctly. Was it the PSA's lowers that some dpms 308 stuff doesn't work with? |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 9:46:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that would be awesome, if all DMPS pattern stuff fit and worked correctly. Was it the PSA's lowers that some dpms 308 stuff doesn't work with? If the PX-10 is g2 compatible, BCGs will be available and cheap on the PSA sales. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 11:32:00 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that would be awesome, if all DMPS pattern stuff fit and worked correctly. Was it the PSA's lowers that some dpms 308 stuff doesn't work with? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hard to tell on my phone but the lowers look just like DPMS g2 lowers. I hope they are %100 compatible. We already have several new, small frame patterns, it would be great for parts availability if several manufacturers were using the same specs. that would be awesome, if all DMPS pattern stuff fit and worked correctly. Was it the PSA's lowers that some dpms 308 stuff doesn't work with? Receivers are smaller, BCG is AR15 diameter but longer, barrel extension is narrower and totally different, with a separate steel feed ramp insert for the upper, ejection port door is longer than SR25, AR10B, and LR-308 port doors. The PX-10 receivers look exactly like DPMS GII receivers. I don't know why they're using a large handguard though. The DPMS GII was meant to use a lot of common AR15 handguards with a GII-specific barrel nut to fit on their upper, but adapt many lo profile AR15 handguards to it. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 2:37:18 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a totally different gun. None of the DPMS LR-308 pattern/AP4 critical parts are anything like the DPMS GII. Receivers are smaller, BCG is AR15 diameter but longer, barrel extension is narrower and totally different, with a separate steel feed ramp insert for the upper, ejection port door is longer than SR25, AR10B, and LR-308 port doors. The PX-10 receivers look exactly like DPMS GII receivers. I don't know why they're using a large handguard though. The DPMS GII was meant to use a lot of common AR15 handguards with a GII-specific barrel nut to fit on their upper, but adapt many lo profile AR15 handguards to it. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 3:00:24 PM EDT
[#5]
I'd be very interested if the upper receiver threads were the same as an AR-15 and would take all aftermarket AR-15 handguards. Doesn't look like that's the case though.
Handguard Style: PSA X-10 Lightweight Keymod Free Float |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 6:23:49 PM EDT
[#6]
 Attached File Attached FileIs there any chance psa gets the pa10 and the new px10 from dpms? Are pa10's compatible with dpms 308? The above pics are the new dpms and the new px10. They are Too close to each other not to be related. The px10 is at least a Chinese nockoff of the dpms Gll. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 6:40:57 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/445788/IMG_0400-274318.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/445788/IMG_0401-274317.JPG Is there any chance psa gets the pa10 and the new px10 from dpms? Are pa10's compatible with dpms 308? The above pics are the new dpms and the new px10. They are Too close to each other not to be related. The px10 is at least a Chinese nockoff of the dpms Gll. 
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Posted: 8/7/2017 7:51:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@LRRPF52 what are your thoughts on the DPMS GII design? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's a totally different gun. None of the DPMS LR-308 pattern/AP4 critical parts are anything like the DPMS GII. Receivers are smaller, BCG is AR15 diameter but longer, barrel extension is narrower and totally different, with a separate steel feed ramp insert for the upper, ejection port door is longer than SR25, AR10B, and LR-308 port doors. The PX-10 receivers look exactly like DPMS GII receivers. I don't know why they're using a large handguard though. The DPMS GII was meant to use a lot of common AR15 handguards with a GII-specific barrel nut to fit on their upper, but adapt many lo profile AR15 handguards to it. The original intended production AR10A of 1959 that was handed over to Colt from ArmaLite was a small frame AR10 compared to the ArmaLite tool room and Dutch production guns of the era, but it was of course halted from production and the factory was switched over to the AR15 due to market response from foreign customers (The Black Rifle, Volume I). Colt recently dusted off the AR10A design (I'm not sure if they did it knowingly). With the Colt 901's introduction several years ago, the small frame AR10 was reborn over 50 years later. In 2 years, the small frame AR10 will be a 60yr-old design that most of the market is just barely becoming aware of. Don't confuse that with the new ArmaLite "AR10A" design, which is a large frame AR10 that takes SR25 mags versus their 1996 AR10B design, which takes modified M14 mags. I was going to get a GII and rebarrel it, but the gunsmith was insisting on using a PTG reamer so I pulled out. |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 7:18:14 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Idk Adams Arms makes a piston version that's the same. https://www.rainierarms.com/media/product/c6b/adams-arms-small-frame-308-patrol-battle-rifle-fgaa-00148-by-adams-arms-d63.jpg |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 9:09:28 AM EDT
[#10]
No way PSA is buying from DPMS. It is a knock off. Hopefully it will be a good one.
Look at the contour cuts in front of the ejection port; they're different. Plus, I don't believe DPMS would sell to PSA, DPMS can't keep up with their own orders. |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 9:34:40 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No way PSA is buying from DPMS. It is a knock off. Hopefully it will be a good one. Look at the contour cuts in front of the ejection port; they're different. Plus, I don't believe DPMS would sell to PSA, DPMS can't keep up with their own orders. |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 10:12:49 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
now I'm curious whether DPMS knows and is investigating to see if there is a intellectual property issue. Did DPMS patent their design and license it to PSA? Still, I think something is going on in terms of agreements or otherwise that's allowing others like Aero, PSA, etc. to use the design. I don't think other manufacturers are just stomping on DPMS' toes without some kind of agreement. I got the impression that when DPMS went into this new platform, there was some effort on their part to bring a more "milspec"...for lack of a better word...design to market for the whole market. I'd like to hear more about it, because it appears that there is some industry effort to normalize a large caliber pattern AR like we have with the AR15...but maybe not. |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 10:14:59 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
now I'm curious whether DPMS knows and is investigating to see if there is a intellectual property issue. Did DPMS patent their design and license it to PSA? Quote HistoryQuoted:
now I'm curious whether DPMS knows and is investigating to see if there is a intellectual property issue. Did DPMS patent their design and license it to PSA? Quoted:
Quoted:
@DPMS Did PSA and others using the same looking system as the GII license it or was it a open source design type thing? |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 10:17:28 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not exactly the same. Look around the mag release, the mag flares(the dpms pic is shiney and shows off flare better), rounded trigger guard, front takedown pin detent/spring thing. Almost identical. I think psa buys from dpms. Would love to see pa10 and regular dpms 308 receivers side by side, as well as the new skinny ones. Their bolt looks identical as does their carrier, with the one difference being no gas ports or gas key. |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 6:45:34 PM EDT
[#15]
Thanks for the replies.
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Posted: 8/8/2017 8:18:04 PM EDT
[#16]
When the DPMS GII came out they claimed that there were quite a few new patents in the bolt alone, plus the rest of the improvements.
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Posted: 8/9/2017 10:24:20 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When the DPMS GII came out they claimed that there were quite a few new patents in the bolt alone, plus the rest of the improvements.  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/10/2017 4:15:45 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is the BCG from the AA system. Does it seem familiar to anyone else? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/414147/IMG_20170809_092358-275675.JPG Adams Arms came out with their small frame piston .308 so quickly after dpms introduced the g2, I thought they must have licensed it from dpms. Does anyone know? Can you fire a g2 upper on an AA lower? |
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Posted: 8/10/2017 10:27:24 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It looks like they went with a kidney shaped ejector to get around someones dual ejector patent but I find it hard to believe the dpms g2 was the first to patent dual ejectors. KAC, LMT maybe? Adams Arms came out with their small frame piston .308 so quickly after dpms introduced the g2, I thought they must have licensed it from dpms. Does anyone know? Can you fire a g2 upper on an AA lower? ETA: ok so who's going to be the one to buy and review?? |
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Posted: 8/10/2017 11:04:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My KAK bolt has dual ejectors as well. But the AR isn't the only rifle to have them, either. ETA: ok so who's going to be the one to buy and review?? |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 4:08:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Will the Rainier DPMS Gen 2 6.5 CM barrels fit the PSA PX-10, or the PSA PA-10 Gen 2?
(I tried to paste a link from Rainier a couple of times, but it didn't work) |
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Posted: 8/15/2017 9:38:06 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Will the Rainier DPMS Gen 2 6.5 CM barrels fit the PSA PX-10, or the PSA PA-10 Gen 2? (I tried to paste a link from Rainier a couple of times, but it didn't work) |
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Posted: 8/15/2017 6:51:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The intent would be that the rainier barrel would fit the PX-10, but unless both companies partnered with DPMS to ensure no assembly issues exist, it's a crap shoot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Will the Rainier DPMS Gen 2 6.5 CM barrels fit the PSA PX-10, or the PSA PA-10 Gen 2? (I tried to paste a link from Rainier a couple of times, but it didn't work) I doubt PSA would just knock off the GII down to investing in the same forges and source for the ejection port door. That said, it's a totally different barrel extension diameter between that of an AR15 and an SR25/ArmaLite AR10/LR-308 diameter, with totally different bolt dimensions. When DPMS's product development team spec'd out the GII, they wanted common rail height to the M4 with the upper, and wanted to reduce weight substantially over the LR-308 and AP4. |
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Posted: 8/15/2017 7:18:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looking at the pics side-by-side, it appears that the PX-10 is a licensed GII. There is no coincidence that it has GII receivers. I doubt PSA would just knock off the GII down to investing in the same forges and source for the ejection port door. |
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Posted: 8/15/2017 8:31:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Reverse engineered and workarounds for the patents.
It's hard to say it is really a new, proprietary rifle when it is mostly a scaled down version of a 60 year old design. Looks like PSA and AA are taking their chances. I just hope they went with the same dimensions so there is compatibilty of parts. The POF small frame is even smaller but it's fugly and their rails are tall and heavy. I wish they had all licensed the dimensions and then put their own spin on them. |
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Posted: 8/15/2017 8:34:38 PM EDT
[#26]
I just asked for some clarification in DPMS's Industry Forum.
I did several searches on PSA's site, and can't see a thing anymore. It's like the PX-10 never existed, unless someone else can find it. |
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Posted: 8/15/2017 9:23:06 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just asked for some clarification in DPMS's Industry Forum. I did several searches on PSA's site, and can't see a thing anymore. It's like the PX-10 never existed, unless someone else can find it. You can find this in Google's cache, the part number returns nothing and the link doesn't work.  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/15/2017 9:24:29 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just asked for some clarification in DPMS's Industry Forum. I did several searches on PSA's site, and can't see a thing anymore. It's like the PX-10 never existed, unless someone else can find it. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 1:35:03 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a bad feeling when DPMS said they didn't license their patent to PSA. Somebody might be doing a gigantic "Oh, SHIT!" right about now and calling their lawyers for advice. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 7:45:23 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They never said that. They just said it's not open source. Short frame 308 was done a LONG time ago before DPMS picked it up, anyways. The form factor is not new. Quote HistoryQuoted:
They never said that. They just said it's not open source. Short frame 308 was done a LONG time ago before DPMS picked it up, anyways. The form factor is not new. Quoted:
DPMS has not licensed any of the G2 design or IP to the parties in question. Also when we originally launched the platform we intended to offer all parts including lower receivers and builders kits once we met demand on rifles. We are a parts company and realize many want to custom build instead of buy off the shelf. These parts will be slowly making their way to retail so please be patient if you want to custom build a G2.  |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 8:01:25 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They never said that. They just said it's not open source. Short frame 308 was done a LONG time ago before DPMS picked it up, anyways. The form factor is not new. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I had a bad feeling when DPMS said they didn't license their patent to PSA. Somebody might be doing a gigantic "Oh, SHIT!" right about now and calling their lawyers for advice.  I even provided the link to the post where they said they didn't license their patent to PSA.
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Posted: 8/16/2017 11:04:35 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They never said that. They just said it's not open source. Short frame 308 was done a LONG time ago before DPMS picked it up, anyways. The form factor is not new. This allows the much smaller barrel extension which allows the use of a bolt carrier of the same diameter as the AR-15. One could cut ramps in the aluminum upper similar to M-4 ramps but I think wear would be a real issue. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 3:10:19 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a bad feeling when DPMS said they didn't license their patent to PSA. Somebody might be doing a gigantic "Oh, SHIT!" right about now and calling their lawyers for advice. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 12:17:52 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds very likely. I wonder if any made it out the door? "DPMS is aware of your observation and has not licensed designs, patents or IP regarding the GII platform in any capacity to Palmetto State Armory." ... well... so much for the PX-10. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 4:17:20 PM EDT
[#35]
Sounds like PSA's Legal, QC, and CS teams are all on the same level.
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Posted: 8/18/2017 7:43:31 PM EDT
[#36]
Unless they infringed on any of the specific patents, I think they'll be alright. The G2 is just a scaled down lr308/ar-10. The design is 60 years old. If they haven't gone after AA in the three years their piston version has been out, why go after PSA?
I'm not a patent attorney. 
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Posted: 8/18/2017 8:05:23 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless they infringed on any of the specific patents, I think they'll be alright. The G2 is just a scaled down lr308/ar-10. The design is 60 years old. If they haven't gone after AA in the three years their piston version has been out, why go after PSA? |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 10:54:03 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
G2 has some significant changes to the 308 AR design. It is not just scaled down. Same - -trigger -mag release -buffer/spring set up -rotating multi lug bolt -direct impingement -gas tube -barrel nut attachment -bolt hold open -safety -take down pins -grip attachment -buttstock attachment -ejection port cover Different - -monolithic carrier -larger ejection port -dual ejectors -steel feed ramp -fluted barrel under the extension Almost everything that makes the g2 different are engineering necessities due to taking an lr-308 and making it smaller. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 11:01:43 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I disagree. Same - -trigger -mag release -buffer/spring set up -rotating multi lug bolt -direct impingement -gas tube -barrel nut attachment -bolt hold open -safety -take down pins -grip attachment -buttstock attachment -ejection port cover Different - -monolithic carrier -larger ejection port -dual ejectors -steel feed ramp -fluted barrel under the extension Almost everything that makes the g2 different are engineering necessities due to taking an lr-308 and making it smaller. You're not wrong in your assessment, however. But, incorporating those changes in a 308 size cartridge do require significant testing and reengineering of things. Not just, "oh, let's make that piece smaller and just go with it". |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 11:27:36 AM EDT
[#40]
I've been keeping up with this discussion fairly well. On DPMS' claim that their design is patented, has anyone clearly identified the specific design or component element(s) that is truly "new" and/or different enough to qualify for a real patent? I mean, the AR15 "milspec" design gets the occasional tweak or mod by a manufacturer, but little to none of it would qualify as a patent issue. Just making a part bigger, smaller, made out of a different material, etc., etc. doesn't really qualify as a new patent issue...does it? And I don't say this as any smack to DPMS. I appreciate their effort to shrink the current large AR format. I'm just still unclear on the exact, specific elements that would qualify for a patent...not saying that it wouldn't.
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Posted: 8/19/2017 11:49:21 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I disagree. Same - -trigger -mag release -buffer/spring set up -rotating multi lug bolt -direct impingement -gas tube -barrel nut attachment -bolt hold open -safety -take down pins -grip attachment -buttstock attachment -ejection port cover Different - -monolithic carrier -larger ejection port -dual ejectors -steel feed ramp -fluted barrel under the extension Almost everything that makes the g2 different are engineering necessities due to taking an lr-308 and making it smaller. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 12:49:44 PM EDT
[#42]
I wonder if this is what's holding up the Mega SF.
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Posted: 8/19/2017 1:31:27 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you're saying all DPMS changed were what needed to be completely re-engineered to make the system work as a whole, yet those changes are not considered 'significant'? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I disagree. Same - -trigger -mag release -buffer/spring set up -rotating multi lug bolt -direct impingement -gas tube -barrel nut attachment -bolt hold open -safety -take down pins -grip attachment -buttstock attachment -ejection port cover Different - -monolithic carrier -larger ejection port -dual ejectors -steel feed ramp -fluted barrel under the extension Almost everything that makes the g2 different are engineering necessities due to taking an lr-308 and making it smaller. The fact is their hasn't been anything new in firearms design for a long time. Every manufacturer is building variations and combinations of things that have been around for a while now. Working on lighter, smaller, more ergonomic packages with the same amount of firepower is admirable, but hardly revolutionary. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 1:39:44 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not significant enough to say "this is a totally new gun, hands off, we'll sue you for copying our copy of the AR-10". The fact is their hasn't been anything new in firearms design for a long time. Every manufacturer is building variations and combinations of things that have been around for a while now. Working on lighter, smaller, more ergonomic packages with the same amount of firepower is admirable, but hardly revolutionary. Don't innovate, litigate! 
I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but there are things that some companies in this business think they have patents or IP on, that predate the existence of their company by 20 or 30 years.
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Posted: 8/19/2017 3:13:56 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That won't stop a company from suing another company, especially in the AR world. Don't innovate, litigate!
I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but there are things that some companies in this business think they have patents or IP on, that predate the existence of their company by 20 or 30 years. I don't think anyone minds giving credit and financial benefit to a person or company that really innovated truly new concepts or mechanical designs...John Moses Browning comes to mind. I'm not saying that's what DPMS did or didn't do in this instance, but it would be interesting to know what their patent(s) cover specifically and how they qualified the patent. Like you suggest, zia, it might take court action to even find out. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 10:21:43 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I disagree. Same - -trigger -mag release -buffer/spring set up -rotating multi lug bolt -direct impingement -gas tube -barrel nut attachment -bolt hold open -safety -take down pins -grip attachment -buttstock attachment -ejection port cover Different - -monolithic carrier -larger ejection port -dual ejectors -steel feed ramp -fluted barrel under the extension Almost everything that makes the g2 different are engineering necessities due to taking an lr-308 and making it smaller. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
G2 has some significant changes to the 308 AR design. It is not just scaled down. Same - -trigger -mag release -buffer/spring set up -rotating multi lug bolt -direct impingement -gas tube -barrel nut attachment -bolt hold open -safety -take down pins -grip attachment -buttstock attachment -ejection port cover Different - -monolithic carrier -larger ejection port -dual ejectors -steel feed ramp -fluted barrel under the extension Almost everything that makes the g2 different are engineering necessities due to taking an lr-308 and making it smaller. Different upper receiver Different lower receiver Different ejection port door Different spent brass deflector design Different extractor made from an unmentioned alloy Different extractor spring (elastomer) Different bolt carrier Different gas key Basically the core main frame components and critical stress-bearing components were totally re-designed, tested, tweaked, tested some more, finalized, fleet-tested with pyramid, covering a 2-year span involving untold tens of thousands of rounds, followed by analyses and improvements, FEA re-work, final testing, before nailing down the design. But somebody should be able to come along and knock it off and coast on someone else's years of work and who knows how many millions of dollars in RDT&E? Small frame AR10s are nothing new. Most of what DPMS did with the GII is new. Think about balancing out the gas system with a lighter carrier for starters, and try getting that to work for a production gun. Not easy when looking at factory ammo variances. |
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Posted: 8/20/2017 12:10:13 AM EDT
[#47]
I really hope PSA gets these back for sale with licensing from DPMS if necessary, I'd like to see receiver sets available.
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Posted: 8/20/2017 11:26:12 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder if this is what's holding up the Mega SF. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder if this is what's holding up the Mega SF.
Quoted:
Not significant enough to say "this is a totally new gun, hands off, we'll sue you for copying our copy of the AR-10". The fact is their hasn't been anything new in firearms design for a long time. Every manufacturer is building variations and combinations of things that have been around for a while now. Working on lighter, smaller, more ergonomic packages with the same amount of firepower is admirable, but hardly revolutionary. The Patented steel feed ramp inserts are what make it possible to use the carrier diameter of the AR-15. Quoted:
Funny...just last night I was watching the History channel series, "The Cars that Made America". Seems like trying to patent something in the AR rifle design that truly wasn't a complete and total mechanical and/or engineering principle change would be like that guy, George Selden, who tried to patent the concept of the automobile in 1895 when he clearly never "invented" anything. The guy made a lot of money until Henry Ford defeated him. I don't think anyone minds giving credit and financial benefit to a person or company that really innovated truly new concepts or mechanical designs...John Moses Browning comes to mind. I'm not saying that's what DPMS did or didn't do in this instance, but it would be interesting to know what their patent(s) cover specifically and how they qualified the patent. Like you suggest, zia, it might take court action to even find out. Steel feed ramp inserts in the upper to allow for much smaller diameter barrel extension. Flutes under barrel extension to vent gas in the event of a case head failure. Polymer extractor spring. |
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Posted: 8/20/2017 2:47:43 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That might be a very good guess.
That might be a poor guess. The Patented steel feed ramp inserts are what make it possible to use the carrier diameter of the AR-15. The Patented IP in the G2: Steel feed ramp inserts in the upper to allow for much smaller diameter barrel extension. Flutes under barrel extension to vent gas in the event of a case head failure. Polymer extractor spring. |
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Posted: 8/29/2017 9:53:52 AM EDT
[#50]
It looks like PSA is just trying to dump the last remaining PA-10s they have before they offer the new PX-10s.
Also, just saying the small frame .308 is the bees knees of 7.62. 
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