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Posted: 8/19/2014 5:23:33 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
From some quick intersearch, using a 7.62x39 bolt with a Type 1 chamber is the way go, right? TIA I always get the type 1 and type 2 thing mixed up but, you can't use a 7.62x39 bolt with a "Grendel" chamber. Black Hole Weaponry started the type 1 and type 2 thing so you may want to ask them. |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 6:21:34 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
From some quick intersearch, using a 7.62x39 bolt with a Type 1 chamber is the way go, right? My understanding is that a Grendel bolt and (SAAMI-spec) Grendel chamber is the way to go. |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 6:27:39 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
From some quick intersearch, using a 7.62x39 bolt with a Type 1 chamber is the way go, right? TIA Yes a 7.62 is the bolt for the Type I chamber. BHW started using them when they did the 264 LBC. They have never chambered a Grendel. All the LBC varaints they do are done using that bolt. A request can be made for a TYPE II chmaber if a fellow wants that at no extra charge. Greg |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 6:33:20 AM EDT
[#4]
There is an official SAAMI specification for 6.5 Grendel ammunition and a chamber.
Everything else is a wildcat and it becomes more complicated, but that's the way it's always been for any cartridge. If ordering a non-SAAMI chamber, such as the 264LBC, work with your barrel vendor to get a properly headspaced bolt. If you're not working with a vendor, then you need to do the headspace gauging yourself. |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 9:58:53 AM EDT
[#5]
I got my 264lbc from BHW and the bolt from tactical ammunition. Yes the BHW barrels are chambered type one and it is marked that way. I had the same confusion but between BHW ans Tactical Ammo I got straightened out. Mine shoots great with Black Hills Ammo. I got the 1 in 8 twist. 6.5G ammo is interchangeable in the 264LBC but I went ahead and purchased properly headstamped cases from Les Baer. Not that much more expensive, also the Black Hills cases are stamped 264LBC also. You will be very happy when you get it up and running.
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Posted: 8/19/2014 10:04:34 AM EDT
[#6]
Specific to Black Hole Weaponry (264 LBC). Type 1 barrels with accept either a 7.62x39 or 6.5 Grendel bolt. Type 2 barrels will ONLY accept a 6.5 Grendel bolt. Note: use of a 6.5 bolt in a BHW Type 1 barrel could result in injury, death, dismemberment due to improper headspacing. My opinion: I was lucky enough to buy a BHW Type 1 barrel that the previous owner put a Grendel bolt into. He said "gun works great" and i took it shooting and brass was literally being ripped in half (case head separation). Long story short someone could've gotten hurt. Then in the last year 6.5 Grendel barrels started getting "short throated" by various barrel makers causing various issues. All of this led me away from Grendel/264 lbc/6.5 Sporter/Etc and although the Grendel cartridge is SAAMI - I believe the manufactuering of parts is anything but uniform and consistent and I would say RUN, RUN AWAY. HTXH |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 10:11:59 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is an official SAAMI specification for 6.5 Grendel ammunition and a chamber. Everything else is a wildcat and it becomes more complicated, but that's the way it's always been for any cartridge. If ordering a non-SAAMI chamber, such as the 264LBC, work with your barrel vendor to get a properly headspaced bolt. If you're not working with a vendor, then you need to do the headspace gauging yourself. The use the SAME head space gauge. The only difference is that the Grendel case hangs out 0.011 more out of the chamber. Greg |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 10:15:34 AM EDT
[#8]
Last I read 7.62 X 39 bolts are getting harder to find, may be internet rumor but right now there are at least 5 places to purchase 6.5 Grendel bolts, for type II BHW barrel. Since I already have two 6.5 Grendel chambered AR-15 barrels I'd buy Type II BHW barrel for commonality. Just something else to consider.
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Posted: 8/19/2014 10:18:52 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZncepUMgBg
Specific to Black Hole Weaponry (264 LBC). Type 1 barrels with accept either a 7.62x39 or 6.5 Grendel bolt. Type 2 barrels will ONLY accept a 6.5 Grendel bolt. Note: use of a 6.5 bolt in a BHW Type 1 barrel could result in injury, death, dismemberment due to improper headspacing. My opinion: I was lucky enough to buy a BHW Type 1 barrel that the previous owner put a Grendel bolt into. He said "gun works great" and i took it shooting and brass was literally being ripped in half (case head separation). Long story short someone could've gotten hurt. Then in the last year 6.5 Grendel barrels started getting "short throated" by various barrel makers causing various issues. All of this led me away from Grendel/264 lbc/6.5 Sporter/Etc and although the Grendel cartridge is SAAMI - I believe the manufactuering of parts is anything but uniform and consistent and I would say RUN, RUN AWAY. HTXH This incorrect. BOTH bolts will fit iin the extensin but that doesn't mean they are right. They will both fit in a SAAMI Grendel chamber also. . A TYPE I should not be used with a TYPE II as 0.011 excessive head space will occur. As an aside Model 1 Sales , ARP and Black Hole have used the 7.62 bolt. It is not specific to only BHW. They were the first to come out and quantify the issue. They are also the only manufacturer that offers both per choice of the customer. Non-specified barrels wlil be furnsished as a TYPE I chamber as the extra 0.011 of unsupported case hanging out the back of the chamber is not a good thing in their opinion. Greg |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 10:32:06 AM EDT
[#10]
I've just avoided problems by ordering barrel/bolt combos, or being very specific with the barrel maker.
BHW's misnomer of "Type I" and "Type II" is only specific to their chambering. It all stems from the lack of people in the industry who actually know what they are doing when they jumped on the 7.62x39 wagon that Colt pioneered, without really looking at what Colt did. When you locate the case head of a 7.62x39 off the bolt face that was meant for the .223 Remington case rim geometry, you run out of extractor lip meat really quick, and .124" bolt face 7.62x39's are weak in that critical area. When Colt did the engineering work for the 7.62x39, it was a very serious project that was meant to be reliable. Extractor breakages simply weren't tolerable. The 6.5 Grendel bolt picks up from where Colt engineers left off. With 9000 series alloy bolts made by AA, JP, Underground Tactical, and Maxim Firearms, there isn't any good reason to mess around with the .124" bolts and the extractor problems you face. |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 10:52:40 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've just avoided problems by ordering barrel/bolt combos, or being very specific with the barrel maker. BHW's misnomer of "Type I" and "Type II" is only specific to their chambering. It all stems from the lack of people in the industry who actually know what they are doing when they jumped on the 7.62x39 wagon that Colt pioneered, without really looking at what Colt did. When you locate the case head of a 7.62x39 off the bolt face that was meant for the .223 Remington case rim geometry, you run out of extractor lip meat really quick, and .124" bolt face 7.62x39's are weak in that critical area. When Colt did the engineering work for the 7.62x39, it was a very serious project that was meant to be reliable. Extractor breakages simply weren't tolerable. The 6.5 Grendel bolt picks up from where Colt engineers left off. With 9000 series alloy bolts made by AA, JP, Underground Tactical, and Maxim Firearms, there isn't any good reason to mess around with the .124" bolts and the extractor problems you face. As long as the extractors come from the same manufacturer and have a .063" hook length like the AA and Rguns extractors it doesn't really matter what the depth to the bolt face is except the .125 recess bolt is stronger. Only 8% stronger but 8% is 8%. The groove width of both is .070 which is plenty to grab a .050 thick rim. |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 10:55:09 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This incorrect. BOTH bolts will fit iin the extensin but that doesn't mean they are right. They will both fit in a SAAMI Grendel chamber also. . A TYPE I should not be used with a TYPE II as 0.011 excessive head space will occur. As an aside Model 1 Sales , ARP and Black Hole have used the 7.62 bolt. It is not specific to only BHW. They were the first to come out and quantify the issue. They are also the only manufacturer that offers both per choice of the customer. Non-specified barrels wlil be furnsished as a TYPE I chamber as the extra 0.011 of unsupported case hanging out the back of the chamber is not a good thing in their opinion. Greg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZncepUMgBg
Specific to Black Hole Weaponry (264 LBC). Type 1 barrels with accept either a 7.62x39 or 6.5 Grendel bolt. Type 2 barrels will ONLY accept a 6.5 Grendel bolt. Note: use of a 6.5 bolt in a BHW Type 1 barrel could result in injury, death, dismemberment due to improper headspacing. My opinion: I was lucky enough to buy a BHW Type 1 barrel that the previous owner put a Grendel bolt into. He said "gun works great" and i took it shooting and brass was literally being ripped in half (case head separation). Long story short someone could've gotten hurt. Then in the last year 6.5 Grendel barrels started getting "short throated" by various barrel makers causing various issues. All of this led me away from Grendel/264 lbc/6.5 Sporter/Etc and although the Grendel cartridge is SAAMI - I believe the manufactuering of parts is anything but uniform and consistent and I would say RUN, RUN AWAY. HTXH This incorrect. BOTH bolts will fit iin the extensin but that doesn't mean they are right. They will both fit in a SAAMI Grendel chamber also. . A TYPE I should not be used with a TYPE II as 0.011 excessive head space will occur. As an aside Model 1 Sales , ARP and Black Hole have used the 7.62 bolt. It is not specific to only BHW. They were the first to come out and quantify the issue. They are also the only manufacturer that offers both per choice of the customer. Non-specified barrels wlil be furnsished as a TYPE I chamber as the extra 0.011 of unsupported case hanging out the back of the chamber is not a good thing in their opinion. Greg Greg - I am confused by your response so lets look at this from the diagnosic standpoint. I had a BHW barrel with a bolt that cycled, went into battery, functioned fine with the exception of blowing primers / hard recoil / and multiple case head separations. I solved the problem by buying a Model 1 Sales 7.62x39 bolt. So what BHW barrel type did I have based on the above scenario? Thanks, HTXH |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 11:22:30 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Greg - I am confused by your response so lets look at this from the diagnosic standpoint. I had a BHW barrel with a bolt that cycled, went into battery, functioned fine with the exception of blowing primers / hard recoil / and multiple case head separations. I solved the problem by buying a Model 1 Sales 7.62x39 bolt. So what BHW barrel type did I have based on the above scenario? Thanks, HTXH Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZncepUMgBg
Specific to Black Hole Weaponry (264 LBC). Type 1 barrels with accept either a 7.62x39 or 6.5 Grendel bolt. Type 2 barrels will ONLY accept a 6.5 Grendel bolt. Note: use of a 6.5 bolt in a BHW Type 1 barrel could result in injury, death, dismemberment due to improper headspacing. My opinion: I was lucky enough to buy a BHW Type 1 barrel that the previous owner put a Grendel bolt into. He said "gun works great" and i took it shooting and brass was literally being ripped in half (case head separation). Long story short someone could've gotten hurt. Then in the last year 6.5 Grendel barrels started getting "short throated" by various barrel makers causing various issues. All of this led me away from Grendel/264 lbc/6.5 Sporter/Etc and although the Grendel cartridge is SAAMI - I believe the manufactuering of parts is anything but uniform and consistent and I would say RUN, RUN AWAY. HTXH This incorrect. BOTH bolts will fit iin the extensin but that doesn't mean they are right. They will both fit in a SAAMI Grendel chamber also. . A TYPE I should not be used with a TYPE II as 0.011 excessive head space will occur. As an aside Model 1 Sales , ARP and Black Hole have used the 7.62 bolt. It is not specific to only BHW. They were the first to come out and quantify the issue. They are also the only manufacturer that offers both per choice of the customer. Non-specified barrels wlil be furnsished as a TYPE I chamber as the extra 0.011 of unsupported case hanging out the back of the chamber is not a good thing in their opinion. Greg Greg - I am confused by your response so lets look at this from the diagnosic standpoint. I had a BHW barrel with a bolt that cycled, went into battery, functioned fine with the exception of blowing primers / hard recoil / and multiple case head separations. I solved the problem by buying a Model 1 Sales 7.62x39 bolt. So what BHW barrel type did I have based on the above scenario? Thanks, HTXH You have a TYPE I chamber. In combination of a TYPE I , LBC, chamber and a standard Grendel bolt you had approximately 0.020 extra headspce. They'll run but as you saw not well. If you have TYPE II chamber and put a TYPE I bolt in it and load a cartidge the bolt WILL NOT close as you have a short t chamber then. Greg |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 11:43:02 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have a TYPE I chamber. In combination of a TYPE I , LBC, chamber and a standard Grendel bolt you had approximately 0.020 extra headspce. They'll run but as you saw not well. If you have TYPE II chamber and put a TYPE I bolt in it and load a cartidge the bolt WILL NOT close as you have a short t chamber then. Greg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZncepUMgBg
Specific to Black Hole Weaponry (264 LBC). Type 1 barrels with accept either a 7.62x39 or 6.5 Grendel bolt. Type 2 barrels will ONLY accept a 6.5 Grendel bolt. Note: use of a 6.5 bolt in a BHW Type 1 barrel could result in injury, death, dismemberment due to improper headspacing. My opinion: I was lucky enough to buy a BHW Type 1 barrel that the previous owner put a Grendel bolt into. He said "gun works great" and i took it shooting and brass was literally being ripped in half (case head separation). Long story short someone could've gotten hurt. Then in the last year 6.5 Grendel barrels started getting "short throated" by various barrel makers causing various issues. All of this led me away from Grendel/264 lbc/6.5 Sporter/Etc and although the Grendel cartridge is SAAMI - I believe the manufactuering of parts is anything but uniform and consistent and I would say RUN, RUN AWAY. HTXH This incorrect. BOTH bolts will fit iin the extensin but that doesn't mean they are right. They will both fit in a SAAMI Grendel chamber also. . A TYPE I should not be used with a TYPE II as 0.011 excessive head space will occur. As an aside Model 1 Sales , ARP and Black Hole have used the 7.62 bolt. It is not specific to only BHW. They were the first to come out and quantify the issue. They are also the only manufacturer that offers both per choice of the customer. Non-specified barrels wlil be furnsished as a TYPE I chamber as the extra 0.011 of unsupported case hanging out the back of the chamber is not a good thing in their opinion. Greg Greg - I am confused by your response so lets look at this from the diagnosic standpoint. I had a BHW barrel with a bolt that cycled, went into battery, functioned fine with the exception of blowing primers / hard recoil / and multiple case head separations. I solved the problem by buying a Model 1 Sales 7.62x39 bolt. So what BHW barrel type did I have based on the above scenario? Thanks, HTXH You have a TYPE I chamber. In combination of a TYPE I , LBC, chamber and a standard Grendel bolt you had approximately 0.020 extra headspce. They'll run but as you saw not well. If you have TYPE II chamber and put a TYPE I bolt in it and load a cartidge the bolt WILL NOT close as you have a short t chamber then. Greg What you just said, mirrors what I said in the bold face text of my original message which you indicated was incorrect by your initial reply.... When i said accept it equals "run" in your terms. So I'll reiterate my opinion, when buying a used 264lbc, made by any of the companies mentioned do yourself a favor and have it all checked out by a qualified gunsmith based on the Type 1 / Type 2 phenomenon. ... and I wouldn't say Grendel is immune either, I would be leary of any Grendels "in the wild" i.e. 2nd hand market based on the last year of barrel maker issues which is all well covered in Grendel's forum. I bowed out of Grendel and it's variants after 4 tries. HTXH |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 4:02:34 PM EDT
[#15]
Ok, so when I ordered my rifle it was sold as a .264LBC/6.5Grendel but the company has since gone out of business. How do I tell whether my rifle is a 6.5G or a .264LBC? It's a Loki Weapons System rifle, so maybe someone out there has one and knows or is there a way for me to tell without disassembling it?
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Posted: 8/19/2014 5:03:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok, so when I ordered my rifle it was sold as a .264LBC/6.5Grendel but the company has since gone out of business. How do I tell whether my rifle is a 6.5G or a .264LBC? It's a Loki Weapons System rifle, so maybe someone out there has one and knows or is there a way for me to tell without disassembling it? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Brandiwynter/6c80a76b-71e5-43dd-8c8a-3dad98c22147_zps7ad4eb3d.jpg Other than doing a chamber cast or using a bore scope to look fi r the double angle in the leade of the Grendel you can't. The 264 will be straight. I doubt if it is a Grendel as the LBC marking would be pretty out of character for bragging rights. Ultimately you probably would never notice a difference. Being inquisitive is good though. The cast might also reveal a difference in neck diameter but the double leade will be definitive. Also measure the bolt face. If 0.125 it is not a Grendel. If 0.135 it may be either one. Greg |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 6:34:55 PM EDT
[#17]
What is the marking on the barrel? That is where you will find it. That is unless they did a re-profile and removed the factory stamp. A quality smith would have had it re-stamped.
Mine is marked "Type One Chamber" by BHW. |
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Posted: 8/19/2014 7:52:46 PM EDT
[#18]
Can't see the barrel unfortunately, it has a Hogue free float forend on it which is solid. Shy of removing the Hogue, which I don't want to attempt, I dunno. I couldn't see any markings on the barrel area that is visible.
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Posted: 8/20/2014 6:35:35 AM EDT
[#19]
A quick quote from LOKI:
Erik told me they have switched because the 264 LBC seemed to re-chamber more efficiently. An Arcival post on 65 that talks about it: http://www.65grendel.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-1963.html About as clear as mud. I'd just shoot it. What does the bolt measure? Greg |
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Posted: 8/20/2014 8:04:54 AM EDT
[#20]
Loki was using .264 LBC chambered barrels, from what I remember. A lot of them might have been Liberty pipes. .264 LBC reamers are easier to cut and re-sharpen for a reamer maker, especially if that reamer maker hates being held to a standard and will be called out with equipment to measure exactly what he's done. Heaven forbid your tooling actually look like the SAAMI print and your rifle builder demands that you adhere to the standard.
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Posted: 8/20/2014 11:05:03 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can't see the barrel unfortunately, it has a Hogue free float forend on it which is solid. Shy of removing the Hogue, which I don't want to attempt, I dunno. I couldn't see any markings on the barrel area that is visible. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Brandiwynter/IMG_20130517_081147_zps11b27f8c.jpg That hogue will come off real easy, i suspect. It is two pieces. The largest portion with the rubber on it simply screws on to the back portion which is also your barrel nut. grasp the knurled part of the nut tightly and screw off the end........problem solved. |
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Posted: 8/20/2014 1:41:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Ok so that's what I was told when I bought it but I'd read others referring to their Loki as a "6.5 Grendel" and others as ".264LBC", the terms are often used to mean the same thing so it gets confusing. When I ordered mine it was supposed to be a .264LBC with a Liberty barrel, so that must be what I got. I'm happy with it.
Is there any real performance difference between the 6.5 Grendel and the .264LBC? Or anything important that I should know regarding mine being a .264LBC? |
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Posted: 8/20/2014 1:43:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That hogue will come off real easy, i suspect. It is two pieces. The largest portion with the rubber on it simply screws on to the back portion which is also your barrel nut. grasp the knurled part of the nut tightly and screw off the end........problem solved. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Can't see the barrel unfortunately, it has a Hogue free float forend on it which is solid. Shy of removing the Hogue, which I don't want to attempt, I dunno. I couldn't see any markings on the barrel area that is visible. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Brandiwynter/IMG_20130517_081147_zps11b27f8c.jpg That hogue will come off real easy, i suspect. It is two pieces. The largest portion with the rubber on it simply screws on to the back portion which is also your barrel nut. grasp the knurled part of the nut tightly and screw off the end........problem solved. How do you access the nut? It's flush with the receiver. At some point in the future, when I can afford it, I'm going to be replacing the current Hogue with the new style so hopefully just unscrewing it works. |
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Posted: 8/20/2014 2:54:07 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How do you access the nut? It's flush with the receiver. At some point in the future, when I can afford it, I'm going to be replacing the current Hogue with the new style so hopefully just unscrewing it works. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Can't see the barrel unfortunately, it has a Hogue free float forend on it which is solid. Shy of removing the Hogue, which I don't want to attempt, I dunno. I couldn't see any markings on the barrel area that is visible. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Brandiwynter/IMG_20130517_081147_zps11b27f8c.jpg That hogue will come off real easy, i suspect. It is two pieces. The largest portion with the rubber on it simply screws on to the back portion which is also your barrel nut. grasp the knurled part of the nut tightly and screw off the end........problem solved. How do you access the nut? It's flush with the receiver. At some point in the future, when I can afford it, I'm going to be replacing the current Hogue with the new style so hopefully just unscrewing it works. There are only a few ways remove (or tighten) the portion that serves as a barrel "nut" on the Hogue tubes (good quality but poor design IMHO), either use a strap wrench with durable nylon strap material. or use pipe wrench/channel lock pliers with a heavy duty material wrapped around the barrel "nut" like a piece of a thick leather belt as not to ruin the finish on the barrel nut, or lastly use a armorers wrench with the pins inserted on the receiver side of the barrel nut (use must be careful to damage the finish on the top of your receiver) and loosen the nut slowly... Sometimes, all the critical Info. of a AR rifle barrel is engraved or stamped just forward of the barrel extension, which in turn is usually covered up by the barrel nut... Good luck. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 7:39:26 AM EDT
[#25]
Hope this infographic helps clear up the confusion:
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