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Posted: 3/12/2012 6:46:10 AM EDT
I'm putting together a .308 AR and I was wondering if anybody has any experience with the ones from Rainier and if they are cold hammer forged as opposed to button rifled [IIRC Polygonal rifling is usually on cold hammer forged barrels]
Anybody?
Link Posted: 3/15/2012 2:54:52 PM EDT
[#1]
If they're the poly rifling they're made by Black Hole Weaponry. I only use those barrels and they're damn fantastic, and very easy to clean. For my personal guns I don't use anything else.
Link Posted: 3/15/2012 4:34:01 PM EDT
[#2]
Good people and products at BHW...Even if you have a problem with their barrel they will do the customer right and replace it....

I use them exclusively for all my AR barrel needs...their prices are also reasonable as is the turnaround time...

Good Luck.
Link Posted: 3/16/2012 5:59:34 AM EDT
[#3]
Polygonal rifling is done the same way button rifling is done with just a different insert (according to Lothar Walther)
Link Posted: 3/16/2012 10:10:19 AM EDT
[#4]
So far I like my BHW barrel...
Link Posted: 3/18/2012 6:20:06 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
If they're the poly rifling they're made by Black Hole Weaponry. I only use those barrels and they're damn fantastic, and very easy to clean. For my personal guns I don't use anything else.


Is this according to Rainier Arms?  I read that Rainier Arms uses PacNor barrels for match grade.

Link Posted: 3/18/2012 9:57:45 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
If they're the poly rifling they're made by Black Hole Weaponry. I only use those barrels and they're damn fantastic, and very easy to clean. For my personal guns I don't use anything else.

BHW poly rifling and Rainier poly rifling are two completely different types of rifling.
Link Posted: 3/18/2012 1:43:40 PM EDT
[#7]
My 6.8 Ultra Match is a Shilling.
Link Posted: 3/18/2012 1:49:49 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
My 6.8 Ultra Match is a Shilling.


Shilen
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 8:32:18 AM EDT
[#9]
Ah, so polygonal rifling can be either button rifled OR CHF.  Thanks for the clarification.  CMMG is advertising CHF polygonal rifled barrels BTW.  Price is a little steep for something with no reviews yet, and I know Rainier has gotten some pretty good reviews.  Anyway, Still, the poly rifling sounds about my "speed" if you'll pardon the pun.  ;)
And I can get the 20" from Rainier already.
The BHW and Rainier's certainly sound similar as they both use three groove poly rifling.
Link Posted: 3/26/2012 1:04:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Cool,

Hammer forging is the cheapest way to make a barrel.  A rifled mandrel is inserted is a steel tube and then the tube is hammered around its ircumference  in a press.  This method causes a lot of stress in the metal.  As the barrel heats, the stress causes the barrel to flex in an unpredictable way.

Best stick with button or cut barrels that are stress relieved and hand lapped.

PCM
Link Posted: 3/28/2012 1:03:20 PM EDT
[#11]
Rainer's are Shilens hence the term "ratchet rifling".
Link Posted: 3/28/2012 2:15:23 PM EDT
[#12]
True polygonal rifling is shaping the internal surface of the barrel into a polygonal shape, and rotating that shape to form a twist. Think Glock barrel. There are no lans or grooves.
BS marketing polygonal rifling is altering the edges of the lans and grooves in conventional rifling to create a lan crossection of a shape other than a square or rectangle. Its not really polygonal rifling, and it doesn't buy you a damn thing. Don't pay extra for it.
Conventional rifling (L) Polygonal rifling (R)
Link Posted: 3/29/2012 1:20:26 PM EDT
[#13]
See, I've heard the opposite about CHF in that it makes the steel denser, and you don't get tool marks down the barrel that have to be lapped off to smooth it out.  Where did you get your information that it makes the barrel "warp" in  odd ways?
I haven't seen the CMMG rifling pattern yet, however the Rainier and BHW barrels are both advertized as "three groove" polygonal, and only the BHW is actually shown.  Where do you get the information that the Rainier is completely different and how is it different?  I'm hearing a lot of hear say here.  Anybody can claim to be an expert on the interwebs, which is why I ask for references to back up claims.  Remeber, theres mucho crap out there on how horrible the AR platform is, yet here we all are, knowing different from doing research and reviewing the actual information rather than some "expert's" opinion that "Them M16s and AR15s are all crap".

I own a Glock, I've also owned other weapons with polygonal rifling.  I know the difference betwen polygonal, sinusoidal [sp], and traditional rifling, however, thanks for making sure the info was posted for those who don't know the difference.

Copied from the description of the barrel I am interested in over at Rainier:
Description:

You’ve read about our hugely popular 5.56MM Select barrels. Now we are proud to offer an affordable stainless steel barrel with all the features of the big name brands in a 308 platform. These barrels were made to our exact specifications & drawings. We are so confident in our Select grade barrels that we will offer a 100% money back guarantee within 90 days of purchase. If you aren’t completely satisfied with the barrel for any reason, return it for a full refund, no questions asked.

Features:

■Barrel Length: 20″
■Gas Block Seat: .750
■Rifling: Polygonal 3 Groove
■Stainless Steel: 416R
■Feed Ramps: M4
■Gas System: Rifle (DPMS Patern)
■Chamber: .308
■Finish: Black Oxide
■Twist: 1×11
■Thread Pitch: 5⁄8×24
■Weight: 2 lbs 15 oz
■Testing: MPI tested
■Made in the USA!

So where did you get the information that they are using Shilen ratchet rifled barrels [which as far as I can tell only come in 4 and 6 groove, not 3 groove]?
Link Posted: 3/29/2012 1:32:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
See, I've heard the opposite about CHF in that it makes the steel denser, and you don't get tool marks down the barrel that have to be lapped off to smooth it out.  Where did you get your information that it makes the barrel "warp" in  odd ways?

It creates a lot  of stress on the barrel.  See this article from Lilja's website:  http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/details_of_accuracy.htm.  It says that:
Hammer forging is used by many large firearms companies. The bored barrel steel is hammered around a steel rod that has a reverse image of the rifling. Machinery for hammer forging is very expensive. "About the only advantage of hammer forging is the high rate of production," Lilja said. "Because of all the pounding, though, a hammer forged barrel has lots of stress in the metal."

There is a reason you never, ever see a benchrest hammer forged barrel.  The most accurate barrels are button or cut rifled.
Link Posted: 3/29/2012 2:03:25 PM EDT
[#15]
I'm going to have to do more research because there are varying views on this, as evidenced by the attached link

https://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/Precision%20Shooting%20Magazine%20-%20November-%202005%20(Vol_%2053%20-%20No_%207).htm

The only reason I sometimes question evaluations of "this process is better" or "that process is better" is that generally, if its a manufacturer telling me his barrels are better, I tend to be suspicious as hes trying to sell me his barrels in the first place.
I'm not saying that the claims that button rifling is better are wrong, I am saying I would like to get confirmation on that from an independent/non-biassed source
Link Posted: 3/29/2012 5:36:35 PM EDT
[#16]
Some of Rainier's are polygonal, some are Ratchet, some do not say, at least in their 5.56/Wylde barrels.  I have not looked at others. They are not the same thing.  Shilen use ratchet rifling, not polygonal, so it seems Rainier uses Shilen barrels (which they state outright) for their Ultra Match, but not their select.
Link Posted: 3/29/2012 8:55:46 PM EDT
[#17]
Hopefully one of the techies can clear it up but 3 groove poly rifling is not the same as a true poly bore like HK and Glock use. My understanding is it is more of just a rounded rifling like the 5R type stuff.
Link Posted: 3/30/2012 5:39:42 AM EDT
[#18]
5R type stuff?
I'm looking for a good, long wearing, decently accurate barrel.  This is not for a bench rest rifle, its a working rifle
BTW, HK, Steyr, Sako, and many other manufacturers seem to use CHF barrels for MANY of their "sniper/counter sniper" type precision marksman rifles.  If it was so bad for the accuracy of the barrel, then why do they still use it?
In all honesty, unless you are trying to wring every last thousandth of an inch of accuracy out of a rifle, with no interest in longevity, then yes, CHF seems to not be the way to go, how ever, I am not a bench rest shooter.  I am a practical rifleman.  If I can keep all the shots in a 10 circle at 500, I will be more than happy.  If my barrel will hold up for the long term, I'll be even happier.

Thanks for the input, guys.

Link Posted: 3/30/2012 7:17:07 AM EDT
[#19]
Any of the name brand barrels will do what you need. Rainier makes good stuff so if you like it buy one and start sending rounds downrange.

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