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Basic
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Posted: 2/10/2012 3:22:52 AM EST
I'm new the semi-auto AR platform rifle. In the very near future I am looking to purchase an AR chambered in either the .308 or 7.62. I've followed many of the post on this forum regarding the questions posed by several individuals about what is the best .308/7.62 out there or what is best custom AR build. Here are some questions that I have from a different perspective:

If someone were looking at a Rock River Arms LAR8, DMPR LR308, Bushmaster 308's or CMMG MK3 308, why save an additional $1000-1500 to step up to a "quality" AR (Larue, LWRC, etc)? From what I understand the precision that many of the components are built on is high in Larue or similar AR's. Since "better" guns have "better" tolerances, does that effect the user that doesn't like to clean his gun that often? Does that affect the user who may want to take it out for a hunt in dusty, non-weather controlled environments?

It seems to me that DPMS is manufacturing a quality gun (out of the box it is a little sloppy but some minor upgrades would turn it into a competitors nightmare without the price tag). My only analogy that I could think of is someone asking the same question when looking at purchasing a new sports car, there are Porsche 911's and Chevy Camero's. Both look good and would have great speed to some degree. However, a Porsche would require a lot of maintenance to ensure its proper performance. Maybe I am answering my own question here but I would like to generate a discussion on assessing current rifles that are truly competitors when taking into account price, weight, accuracy and dependability.
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Posted: 2/10/2012 11:37:34 AM EST
Firstly, welcome to the site.

I think I see what you're getting at, and in my opinion no, the quality .308 AR platform weapons that are on the market today don't require babying. The only one I have firsthand experience with is the LMT MWS, which is being used by the Brits in Afghanistan right now. There are also tongue-in-cheek reports that the LaRue OBR is whacking bad guys in theater as well, which is complimentary news to it excelling in a few sniper competitions in the past year or so.

These guys certainly don't treat their rifles like safe queens and they seem to be holding up just fine:



Not saying the DPMS or others like it aren't decent guns, only that as you go up in price you generally don't incur more maintenance responsibilities.
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Posted: 2/10/2012 12:00:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/10/2012 4:15:17 PM EST by Direct-Drive]
Of the mass-produced 308AR's I would look at the Armalite.
Other than that (and far more likely) I would build from a Mega MA-TEN receiver set.
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Posted: 2/10/2012 12:01:56 PM EST
I own several DPMS rifles in 7.62x51. All have been great shooters, with no serious problems. One exception is the stock DPMS trigger, which I have replaced with quality triggers. I've fired several AR10s, and they also were good weapons. I don't expect to carry any rifle in combat again, so that's not a consideration for me. If the SHTF ever hapened and I actually had to defend against zombies, I am confident in my DPMS rifles. Would I like a KAC rifle? Sure. Do I need one? Probably not. My triggers were less then $300 each, far below the difference in a DPMS and a KAC or similar rifle. That same price difference paid for several thousands of rounds of quality surplus ammo and some decent optics. I shoot at the range and I hunt whitetail deer, and none of my DPMS stuff has ever let me down. And they are all MOA or better shooters.
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Posted: 2/10/2012 3:49:29 PM EST
I'm kind of puzzled when it comes to the current .308/7.62 semi-automatic market. There are two different "styles" of rifles being built (with Colt doing its own thing with the SP901). I am trying to foresee what the future holds when it comes to a "standard" specification being established, the same standard that exists within the AR15 platform. Eventually RRA/Armalite or the other style has to merge at some point. It seems to me right now, demand for a semi-automatic .308/7.62 is very high. This would indicate to me that some companies are going to realize they need to move towards demand and design to the custom semi-automatic builders (some already have moved towards accommodating more readily available magazines).

Correct me if I am wrong but a similar marketing trend took place with high definition DVD's that I would liken the current .308/7.62 market to. People were torn between the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray-DVD technology. One ultimately broke through as the standard as we know it today.

Am I saying there will some rifles will become obsolete when all is said and done? No. Maybe this is not the same. But as a potential semi-automatic .308/7.62 buyer, I would like to consider evaluating what the future holds as I make this purchase.

DPMS seems to be manufacturing exceptional semi-automatic rifles (definitely not triggers). Larue, LMT, Les Baur also have fine pieces of workmanship. In a round about way, with a few minor modifications, I would go to the point of saying DPMS is up there with the fine builders. Would any of you agree? This is what a fellow arms bearer is thinking...

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Posted: 2/10/2012 4:07:34 PM EST
I would not look at armalite given the number of users and threads here concering their quality.
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Posted: 2/10/2012 4:47:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
I would not look at armalite given the number of users and threads here concering their quality.

You should go over to the AR10 forum with that.
They would be happy to educate you.


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Posted: 2/10/2012 4:51:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By Direct-Drive:
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
I would not look at armalite given the number of users and threads here concering their quality.

You should go over to the AR10 forum with that.
They would be happy to educate you.




direct, no need to get testy. All one has to do is read these forums to validate what I wrote. It's unreal how many armalite owners have negative views on them here. Just read through the posts.
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Posted: 2/10/2012 5:29:48 PM EST
Wel, I have not read much of any bad post or problem with Armalite AR 10's They seem to be one of the best quality AR 308's in the market place that I read about. Not sure were you've been reading but I look at these forums every day and I cant remember the last time I read anything bad about an Armalite AR 10.
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Posted: 2/10/2012 8:09:42 PM EST
The DPMS platform is way overshadowing the Armalite and RRA Versions in sales and avaialbe accessories P-mag as exhibit A. I have 2 that are the DPMS format, but not a lot of DPMS parts in them. I think their barrels are horrid also, the trigger is normal AR trigger so bad is to be expected. I know some guys claim thier DPMS barrel shoots well, I think it is a difference of standards.

The only Armalite SS barrel I have fired did shoot nicely. That particular rifle didn't work right out of the box and the sales dept told the cust (basically FO). Took him multiple e-mails then calls and some anger to get to the service dept who immediately wanted to see the gun and fixed 2 problems with it. IMO aside from the service dept it is a poorly ran company

In conclusion: DPMS format choosing your parts. But if you can afford the LMT go for that!
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Posted: 2/11/2012 6:40:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By StonerAR10:
Wel, I have not read much of any bad post or problem with Armalite AR 10's They seem to be one of the best quality AR 308's in the market place that I read about. Not sure were you've been reading but I look at these forums every day and I cant remember the last time I read anything bad about an Armalite AR 10.


in the variants section, each time someone asks which one or who has good quality, there are a litany of armalite owners talking about their problems. Personally, I was shocked by the number and read these boards almost every day. I planned on getting an armalite but the number of owners that had issues with quality and accuracy made me rethink my armalite 308. No way one can miss these posts if reading here all the time.

Every maker has issues and the occasional lemon get's through, no one maker is immune but I was kinda surprised by the number here. This has been my observation. I don't think it means they are bad, just that many owners seem to have had issues. Look at the repr; they are certainly hit or miss and I'm a lwrc fanboy......

Consequently, the number of dpms owners that seem happy with accuracy and quality of their rifles is surpisingly high given the price point.

I came thiiiiissssss close to buying the Army's 10a4nm upper from armalite and still may do so but used cause I want to make sure I get one that's a laser. Next up is the obr

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Posted: 2/11/2012 7:00:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By Direct-Drive:
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
I would not look at armalite given the number of users and threads here concering their quality.

You should go over to the AR10 forum with that.
They would be happy to educate you.




direct, no need to get testy. All one has to do is read these forums to validate what I wrote. It's unreal how many armalite owners have negative views on them here. Just read through the posts.


Some people would bitch about being hung with a new rope. The vast majority of ArmaLite owners are very pleased with their rifles. many are very hard core supporters of the brand.

The few complaints I have seen normally involve second hand rifles owned by inexperienced AR owners, or some very minor blemish on the finish to size of a bugs ass. I have never heard any complaints about ArmaLite's life time warranty. ArmaLite accuracy claims seem to stand up. Personal I don't think you can buy a better rifle at the same price point. Now that ArmaLite offers the AR10 that is SR25 compatible, that argument is history.

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Posted: 2/11/2012 6:00:09 PM EST
I would say there seems to be issues with RRA, MWS, DPMS, Armalite, POF, and LWRC rifles. These complaints come in waves it seems. One person with issues opens the proverbial box and the rest is history. Read enough of these posts and you'll hear every company has issues (excluding LaRue, KAC, and Colt but that's probably because after spending that kind of money I wouldn't admit I had issues either ) No but really, you have to take forums for what they are, internet soldiers bragging/bitching zone
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Posted: 2/12/2012 8:00:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By etz_cutter:
I'm kind of puzzled when it comes to the current .308/7.62 semi-automatic market. There are two different "styles" of rifles being built (with Colt doing its own thing with the SP901). I am trying to foresee what the future holds when it comes to a "standard" specification being established, the same standard that exists within the AR15 platform. Eventually RRA/Armalite or the other style has to merge at some point. It seems to me right now, demand for a semi-automatic .308/7.62 is very high. This would indicate to me that some companies are going to realize they need to move towards demand and design to the custom semi-automatic builders (some already have moved towards accommodating more readily available magazines).

Correct me if I am wrong but a similar marketing trend took place with high definition DVD's that I would liken the current .308/7.62 market to. People were torn between the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray-DVD technology. One ultimately broke through as the standard as we know it today.

Am I saying there will some rifles will become obsolete when all is said and done? No. Maybe this is not the same. But as a potential semi-automatic .308/7.62 buyer, I would like to consider evaluating what the future holds as I make this purchase.

DPMS seems to be manufacturing exceptional semi-automatic rifles (definitely not triggers). Larue, LMT, Les Baur also have fine pieces of workmanship. In a round about way, with a few minor modifications, I would go to the point of saying DPMS is up there with the fine builders. Would any of you agree? This is what a fellow arms bearer is thinking...

While the true AR!0 undoubtably has been the original, and it will ALWAYS have dedicated followers (Think 57 Chevy). They love their ride, and they love that rifle. It is a piece of history. It has earned it's place, just as the 30-06 has.

But it lost out to commonality, and interchangeability to the KAC SR25. And, then DPMS/ Bushmaster picked up that platform, and it extended that separation from Armalite. When LMT adopted the 308-25 platform it simply cemented the feed system as the one that will be used for the future. Armalite is not currently used by any military associated with the US, and as such, to be a part of the same platform, Armalite has had a redesign to create a carbine that runs the same magazines.
With the next round of redesigns, we will see headspace become common- they will adopt a (MilSpec) and then the platform will advance by leaps and bounds once true interchangeability is achieved.
As it stands, ALL the rifles have their individual issues from time to time. But overall, the quality is very good, accuracy is very good, and function tends to be good, if not very good.


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Posted: 2/12/2012 8:23:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By Rojodiablo:
Originally Posted By etz_cutter:
I'm kind of puzzled when it comes to the current .308/7.62 semi-automatic market. There are two different "styles" of rifles being built (with Colt doing its own thing with the SP901). I am trying to foresee what the future holds when it comes to a "standard" specification being established, the same standard that exists within the AR15 platform. Eventually RRA/Armalite or the other style has to merge at some point. It seems to me right now, demand for a semi-automatic .308/7.62 is very high. This would indicate to me that some companies are going to realize they need to move towards demand and design to the custom semi-automatic builders (some already have moved towards accommodating more readily available magazines).

Correct me if I am wrong but a similar marketing trend took place with high definition DVD's that I would liken the current .308/7.62 market to. People were torn between the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray-DVD technology. One ultimately broke through as the standard as we know it today.

Am I saying there will some rifles will become obsolete when all is said and done? No. Maybe this is not the same. But as a potential semi-automatic .308/7.62 buyer, I would like to consider evaluating what the future holds as I make this purchase.

DPMS seems to be manufacturing exceptional semi-automatic rifles (definitely not triggers). Larue, LMT, Les Baur also have fine pieces of workmanship. In a round about way, with a few minor modifications, I would go to the point of saying DPMS is up there with the fine builders. Would any of you agree? This is what a fellow arms bearer is thinking...

While the true AR!0 undoubtably has been the original, and it will ALWAYS have dedicated followers (Think 57 Chevy). They love their ride, and they love that rifle. It is a piece of history. It has earned it's place, just as the 30-06 has.

But it lost out to commonality, and interchangeability to the KAC SR25. And, then DPMS/ Bushmaster picked up that platform, and it extended that separation from Armalite. When LMT adopted the 308-25 platform it simply cemented the feed system as the one that will be used for the future. Armalite is not currently used by any military associated with the US, and as such, to be a part of the same platform, Armalite has had a redesign to create a carbine that runs the same magazines.
With the next round of redesigns, we will see headspace become common- they will adopt a (MilSpec) and then the platform will advance by leaps and bounds once true interchangeability is achieved.
As it stands, ALL the rifles have their individual issues from time to time. But overall, the quality is very good, accuracy is very good, and function tends to be good, if not very good.




Actually the canadian military has purchased ArmaLite AR-10s as a service weapon
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Posted: 2/12/2012 8:31:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/12/2012 8:32:19 AM EST by Rojodiablo]
Here is the latest list I could find on Canadian military rifles in theatre:Infantry weapons

[edit]Small arms
See also: List of infantry weapons and equipment of the Canadian military
ModelTypeCaliberAcquiredOriginNotes
FN P-35/Hi-PowerSemi-automatic pistol9x19mm1944-???? Belgium/ CanadaPurchased from Fabrique Nationale. Also produced under license by Inglis during the Second World War.
P225/P6 or P226Semi-automatic pistol9x19mmN/A Switzerland
Remington 870 c. 1950Shotgun12 gaugeN/A United States
C7Assault rifle5.56x45mm1986 CanadaLicense produced and modified M16 built by Diemaco (now Colt Canada).
C8Assault rifle5.56x45mm1986 CanadaCarbine version of the C7.
C9 LMGLight machine gun5.56x45mm1986 BelgiumCanadian designation for the FN MINIMI.
C6 GPMGGeneral purpose machine gun7.62x51mm1978 BelgiumCanadian designation for the FN MAG.
FN M2HB-QCBHeavy machine gun.50 BMG (12.7x99mm)N/A United States/ Belgium
C3A1Sniper rifle7.62x51mmN/A United Kingdombeing phased out and replaced with the C14 sniper rifle
C14 TimberwolfSniper rifle.338 Lapua Magnum (8.6x70mm)2005 CanadaJust entering service as the standard sniper rifle of the Canadian Forces.
C15 Long Range Sniper Weapon (LRSW)Anti-materiel rifle.50 BMG (12.7x99mm)2000 United States

None of them is an Armalite...........
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Posted: 2/12/2012 9:20:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/12/2012 9:38:30 AM EST by BB]
Originally Posted By arbob:
Actually the canadian military has purchased ArmaLite AR-10s as a service weapon


Originally Posted By Rojodiablo:
Here is the latest list I could find on Canadian military rifles in theatre:Infantry weapons
...
None of them is an Armalite...........

MRS - C7CT/AR-10T
The Marksman Rifle System. Two sniper rifles bought as IORs ( Immediate Operational Requirements ), Diemaco 5.56mm C7CT and Armalite 7.62mm AR-10T automatics.

As I understand it, the AR10T portion of this IOR was a very small order (less than 20) in 2004. They could hardly be called a "service weapon".
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Posted: 2/12/2012 3:16:56 PM EST
The AR-10 will eventually be replaced by the LMT MWS IMO.

Free


Originally Posted By BB:
Originally Posted By arbob:
Actually the canadian military has purchased ArmaLite AR-10s as a service weapon


Originally Posted By Rojodiablo:
Here is the latest list I could find on Canadian military rifles in theatre:Infantry weapons
...
None of them is an Armalite...........

MRS - C7CT/AR-10T
The Marksman Rifle System. Two sniper rifles bought as IORs ( Immediate Operational Requirements ), Diemaco 5.56mm C7CT and Armalite 7.62mm AR-10T automatics.

As I understand it, the AR10T portion of this IOR was a very small order (less than 20) in 2004. They could hardly be called a "service weapon".


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Posted: 2/12/2012 4:02:28 PM EST
Any way we slice it, there will soon enough be a standard set for the rifles, and then we will be able to integrate different MFG's barrels and bolts, mags, etc without issue. As to who gets what gov't. contract??? That's politics, and we know it.
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Posted: 2/12/2012 6:38:27 PM EST
I like my Rock River. As I have said in other post I debated and listened to people bitch and moan and over hype the rifles they spent money on and wanted to brag about. I think any of the 308 rifles will meet your needs. I liked the price of DPMS and the interchangeability of parts. I did not like the triggers, or the extruded aluminum uppers, or the tightness of most that I handled. I know everyone will say tightness does not matter for accuracy, but I would like my $1,000 plus to go to something that does not wiggle and rattle from play between receivers. I came to terms with the fact that compatibility is a non issue because I like the RRA half-quad rails and will not change them again. Most DPMS/Bushmasters ORCs go for $999 or $1,099 around where I live. I got the RRA for $1163 with a trigger I like and the forged upper and lower. Met my needs and my budget. I got about 150 rounds through it with no real cleaning and zero issues. I took it hog hunting this weekend and hiked and climbed without worry and had no issues. It was a good choice for me, but that doesn't make it great for you, you have to decided.
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Posted: 2/12/2012 7:07:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/12/2012 7:14:23 PM EST by barrysuperhawk]
Actually, there are 3 basic types of Ar pattern .308 rifles, and I have owned all of them.

#1 is the Knights/DPMS/NEW Bushmaster style that takes Pmags. This is what you want, if only for the Pmags [more on this later]

#2 is the Armalite AR10 [and clones] which used Modified M14 mags at first, and now uses a variant of the same. These are fine, beautiful guns. During the ban years I had a couple of them with the first generation mags and the mags sucked. They were accurate, but the lack of available mags that didn't jam every 3rd round was a killer. I understand they fixed those issues with the new generation mags, but they still cost more, and are harder to find. I have seen several AR10 shooters at 3 gun matches that have had magazine issues even on what should be a finely tuned competition gun that ought to run like a swiss watch.

#3 is the RRA/OLD bushmaster style that uses FAL magazines. I have had 2 of these also [one of each] and again. the mag is the weak point. I have dozens and dozens of FAL mags that all work flawlessly in FAL's but I was batting about .300 getting them to work in the Bushmaster, and about .400 with the RRA. The problem is the AR style magwell does not allow for much variation in mag dimensions before they won't seat, or get stuck, or don't latch, or just don't feed right. The RRA was looser and more tolerant, and had a MUCH better trigger, but that wasn't good enough. I also don't know if RRA ever addressed the habit of the old Bushmasters had of breaking bolt lugs.

#3.5 is CMMG that has a HK mag style lower. I didn't really count these because there are so damn few of them in the wild, you never see them. I have seen one in person, actually at the CMMG 3 gun match last year, and the owner mentioned that not only do you have to modify your upper to work with the HK mags, that it is also finekey with surplus mags [although I doubt to the extent that the FAL mag version is]

IMHO, the only question is magazines, and the only answer is Pmags. It doesen't matter how pretty a rifle is if it does not feed, or if mags are so expensive that you only end up buying 2-3 extras, or even if you can buy mags for $2.99 each by the case, but half of them don't work. Everything else can be changed or modified to suit the shooter, but the magazines are the one critical point that will make or break your rifle. You can always install a better trigger, different sights, a freefloat tube, heck even a different barrel if you like, but you cannot change magazines. Best of all the DPMS rifles are among the cheapest, so you can use the $$ you saved to add goodies.
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Posted: 2/12/2012 7:41:13 PM EST
Barry... thank you for that overview.
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Posted: 2/14/2012 6:07:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/14/2012 6:09:10 AM EST by sbk1971]
Originally Posted By barrysuperhawk:
Actually, there are 3 basic types of Ar pattern .308 rifles, and I have owned all of them.

#1 is the Knights/DPMS/NEW Bushmaster style that takes Pmags. This is what you want, if only for the Pmags [more on this later]

#2 is the Armalite AR10 [and clones] which used Modified M14 mags at first, and now uses a variant of the same. These are fine, beautiful guns. During the ban years I had a couple of them with the first generation mags and the mags sucked. They were accurate, but the lack of available mags that didn't jam every 3rd round was a killer. I understand they fixed those issues with the new generation mags, but they still cost more, and are harder to find. I have seen several AR10 shooters at 3 gun matches that have had magazine issues even on what should be a finely tuned competition gun that ought to run like a swiss watch.

#3 is the RRA/OLD bushmaster style that uses FAL magazines. I have had 2 of these also [one of each] and again. the mag is the weak point. I have dozens and dozens of FAL mags that all work flawlessly in FAL's but I was batting about .300 getting them to work in the Bushmaster, and about .400 with the RRA. The problem is the AR style magwell does not allow for much variation in mag dimensions before they won't seat, or get stuck, or don't latch, or just don't feed right. The RRA was looser and more tolerant, and had a MUCH better trigger, but that wasn't good enough. I also don't know if RRA ever addressed the habit of the old Bushmasters had of breaking bolt lugs.

#3.5 is CMMG that has a HK mag style lower. I didn't really count these because there are so damn few of them in the wild, you never see them. I have seen one in person, actually at the CMMG 3 gun match last year, and the owner mentioned that not only do you have to modify your upper to work with the HK mags, that it is also finekey with surplus mags [although I doubt to the extent that the FAL mag version is]

IMHO, the only question is magazines, and the only answer is Pmags. It doesen't matter how pretty a rifle is if it does not feed, or if mags are so expensive that you only end up buying 2-3 extras, or even if you can buy mags for $2.99 each by the case, but half of them don't work. Everything else can be changed or modified to suit the shooter, but the magazines are the one critical point that will make or break your rifle. You can always install a better trigger, different sights, a freefloat tube, heck even a different barrel if you like, but you cannot change magazines. Best of all the DPMS rifles are among the cheapest, so you can use the $$ you saved to add goodies.


I agree with this.....I actually owned an Armalite AR-10 and sold it during some tough times.I now own a Remmy R-25 and it shoots,handles,and cycles way better than my Armalite ever did.This is just my opinion and if you feel the need to flame me for that,then have at it.I dont care!!! P-mags alone like said above is enough reason to stick with this platform.For what its worth,my R-25 shoots better than any bolt gun I have ever owned..Just my .02.



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Posted: 2/14/2012 8:06:37 AM EST
There is no need for a "standard" in the 308 ARs. Jesus, get the fuck over yourselves people. There is absolutely no fucking need to standardize these rifles. The only reason for it, is for the stupid idiots who cant distinguish one manufacturer from another, or those who dont know what barrel nut they have. Its fucking easy as hell, buy parts from the people who made your gun.

Everything else is personal preference. There is just as much aftermarket support for the Armalite as any other platform. The only thing you CANT get is an ambi mag release.

Armalite makes far better weapons than any Cerberus owned manufacturer, that includes DPMS, Bushy, and Remington. Remington uses the EXACT same parts as DPMS with the ONLY except being the camo jobs and a different barrel.

Armalites weapons have far fewer bad apples leave their shop. If they do, they fix it no problem. With DPMS, its almost like every other rifle is a bad one. All their LPKs are terrible, their quality control is a joke, and I dont think they have any customer service at all.

The only problems you read about Armalites is the old ones which still have old parts, people using jacked up M14 mags because they dont know how to cut a fucking hole, or dumbasses not breaking in their stainless steel barrels correctly.

Armalites GENII mag is one of the most robust and reliable mags out there. You have more options, from 5rd to 25rds. They have the best customer service and quality control out there. All of you who refuse to own Armalite simply because it doesnt take the PMag are complete morons.

There will never be a standard with the 308 ARs. There is no need, gun makers do not need to accommodate you idiots who cant keep track of what rifle you have. Armalite makes a better BCG, better barrel nut, uses better materials for their receivers, machines everything IN HOUSE AND IS NOT OUTSOURCED, has better triggers, and you guessed it, a better magazine.

I dont understand why you people want others to cater to your laziness. Buy what rifle feels best to YOU, buy parts for that rifles, buy extra mags for that rifle, buy ammo for that rifle, if a 20$ mag is your number one concern, you should not be buying these kind of guns. Stick to the AR15, because you are not adult enough to handle an AR10.

So quit crying like little babies, grow some balls, and just buy what gun feels good in your hand. There does not need to be a standard on a weapon that is not used across the world. Who the fuck cares if some military uses it or not. Last I checked, numerous armies from across the world make a SHIT LOAD OF BAD DECISIONS when it comes to equipping there soldiers. USA being in the top of the list. Fuck the Canucks, fuck the Brits, and fuck everyone else. I own an Armalite and will be shooting far longer than any of you with rifles from Cerberus corp.

Buy Armalite, support America!
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Posted: 2/14/2012 8:09:44 AM EST
If you bitch for a standard with the AR10, you should bitch just as much at KAC, HK, Glock, Beretta, and anyone else who has proprietary components that are not part of a standard. Either go all out, or shut the fuck up. There only standard I see yall bitching about, are double standards. That only works in relationships with women, nowhere else can this apply.

So, again, quit bitching, buy the gun that feels best in YOUR HANDS, and buy parts accordingly. Simple as that, period.
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Posted: 2/14/2012 8:10:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By sbk1971:
Originally Posted By barrysuperhawk:
Actually, there are 3 basic types of Ar pattern .308 rifles, and I have owned all of them.

#1 is the Knights/DPMS/NEW Bushmaster style that takes Pmags. This is what you want, if only for the Pmags [more on this later]

#2 is the Armalite AR10 [and clones] which used Modified M14 mags at first, and now uses a variant of the same. These are fine, beautiful guns. During the ban years I had a couple of them with the first generation mags and the mags sucked. They were accurate, but the lack of available mags that didn't jam every 3rd round was a killer. I understand they fixed those issues with the new generation mags, but they still cost more, and are harder to find. I have seen several AR10 shooters at 3 gun matches that have had magazine issues even on what should be a finely tuned competition gun that ought to run like a swiss watch.

#3 is the RRA/OLD bushmaster style that uses FAL magazines. I have had 2 of these also [one of each] and again. the mag is the weak point. I have dozens and dozens of FAL mags that all work flawlessly in FAL's but I was batting about .300 getting them to work in the Bushmaster, and about .400 with the RRA. The problem is the AR style magwell does not allow for much variation in mag dimensions before they won't seat, or get stuck, or don't latch, or just don't feed right. The RRA was looser and more tolerant, and had a MUCH better trigger, but that wasn't good enough. I also don't know if RRA ever addressed the habit of the old Bushmasters had of breaking bolt lugs.

#3.5 is CMMG that has a HK mag style lower. I didn't really count these because there are so damn few of them in the wild, you never see them. I have seen one in person, actually at the CMMG 3 gun match last year, and the owner mentioned that not only do you have to modify your upper to work with the HK mags, that it is also finekey with surplus mags [although I doubt to the extent that the FAL mag version is]

IMHO, the only question is magazines, and the only answer is Pmags. It doesen't matter how pretty a rifle is if it does not feed, or if mags are so expensive that you only end up buying 2-3 extras, or even if you can buy mags for $2.99 each by the case, but half of them don't work. Everything else can be changed or modified to suit the shooter, but the magazines are the one critical point that will make or break your rifle. You can always install a better trigger, different sights, a freefloat tube, heck even a different barrel if you like, but you cannot change magazines. Best of all the DPMS rifles are among the cheapest, so you can use the $$ you saved to add goodies.


I agree with this.....I actually owned an Armalite AR-10 and sold it during some tough times.I now own a Remmy R-25 and it shoots,handles,and cycles way better than my Armalite ever did.This is just my opinion and if you feel the need to flame me for that,then have at it.I dont care!!! P-mags alone like said above is enough reason to stick with this platform.For what its worth,my R-25 shoots better than any bolt gun I have ever owned..Just my .02.





You must have had some pretty bad bolt guns.
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Posted: 2/14/2012 8:15:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By crocodile427:
Originally Posted By sbk1971:
Originally Posted By barrysuperhawk:
Actually, there are 3 basic types of Ar pattern .308 rifles, and I have owned all of them.

#1 is the Knights/DPMS/NEW Bushmaster style that takes Pmags. This is what you want, if only for the Pmags [more on this later]

#2 is the Armalite AR10 [and clones] which used Modified M14 mags at first, and now uses a variant of the same. These are fine, beautiful guns. During the ban years I had a couple of them with the first generation mags and the mags sucked. They were accurate, but the lack of available mags that didn't jam every 3rd round was a killer. I understand they fixed those issues with the new generation mags, but they still cost more, and are harder to find. I have seen several AR10 shooters at 3 gun matches that have had magazine issues even on what should be a finely tuned competition gun that ought to run like a swiss watch.

#3 is the RRA/OLD bushmaster style that uses FAL magazines. I have had 2 of these also [one of each] and again. the mag is the weak point. I have dozens and dozens of FAL mags that all work flawlessly in FAL's but I was batting about .300 getting them to work in the Bushmaster, and about .400 with the RRA. The problem is the AR style magwell does not allow for much variation in mag dimensions before they won't seat, or get stuck, or don't latch, or just don't feed right. The RRA was looser and more tolerant, and had a MUCH better trigger, but that wasn't good enough. I also don't know if RRA ever addressed the habit of the old Bushmasters had of breaking bolt lugs.

#3.5 is CMMG that has a HK mag style lower. I didn't really count these because there are so damn few of them in the wild, you never see them. I have seen one in person, actually at the CMMG 3 gun match last year, and the owner mentioned that not only do you have to modify your upper to work with the HK mags, that it is also finekey with surplus mags [although I doubt to the extent that the FAL mag version is]

IMHO, the only question is magazines, and the only answer is Pmags. It doesen't matter how pretty a rifle is if it does not feed, or if mags are so expensive that you only end up buying 2-3 extras, or even if you can buy mags for $2.99 each by the case, but half of them don't work. Everything else can be changed or modified to suit the shooter, but the magazines are the one critical point that will make or break your rifle. You can always install a better trigger, different sights, a freefloat tube, heck even a different barrel if you like, but you cannot change magazines. Best of all the DPMS rifles are among the cheapest, so you can use the $$ you saved to add goodies.


I agree with this.....I actually owned an Armalite AR-10 and sold it during some tough times.I now own a Remmy R-25 and it shoots,handles,and cycles way better than my Armalite ever did.This is just my opinion and if you feel the need to flame me for that,then have at it.I dont care!!! P-mags alone like said above is enough reason to stick with this platform.For what its worth,my R-25 shoots better than any bolt gun I have ever owned..Just my .02.





You must have had some pretty bad bolt guns.



oh c'mon, how many bolt guns are true lasers unless custom? You don't get too many out of the box with little tweaking that are truly better than some of today's semis. Hell, I've got a 6.8 semi that puts dime sized groups together at 200yds out of the box. How many bolt guns do that without customization or tweaking? Probably the most accurate out of the box bolts are tikka, savage, steyr and fn and yet, many have issues with the moa accuracy guarantees and the semis with same guarantees aren't that much different.

that said, I've never seen a semi match a quality custom bolt but there is a difference in price too


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Posted: 2/14/2012 11:07:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By barrysuperhawk:
Actually, there are 3 basic types of Ar pattern .308 rifles, and I have owned all of them.

#1 is the Knights/DPMS/NEW Bushmaster style that takes Pmags. This is what you want, if only for the Pmags [more on this later]

#2 is the Armalite AR10 [and clones] which used Modified M14 mags at first, and now uses a variant of the same. These are fine, beautiful guns. During the ban years I had a couple of them with the first generation mags and the mags sucked. They were accurate, but the lack of available mags that didn't jam every 3rd round was a killer. I understand they fixed those issues with the new generation mags, but they still cost more, and are harder to find. I have seen several AR10 shooters at 3 gun matches that have had magazine issues even on what should be a finely tuned competition gun that ought to run like a swiss watch.

#3 is the RRA/OLD bushmaster style that uses FAL magazines. I have had 2 of these also [one of each] and again. the mag is the weak point. I have dozens and dozens of FAL mags that all work flawlessly in FAL's but I was batting about .300 getting them to work in the Bushmaster, and about .400 with the RRA. The problem is the AR style magwell does not allow for much variation in mag dimensions before they won't seat, or get stuck, or don't latch, or just don't feed right. The RRA was looser and more tolerant, and had a MUCH better trigger, but that wasn't good enough. I also don't know if RRA ever addressed the habit of the old Bushmasters had of breaking bolt lugs.

#3.5 is CMMG that has a HK mag style lower. I didn't really count these because there are so damn few of them in the wild, you never see them. I have seen one in person, actually at the CMMG 3 gun match last year, and the owner mentioned that not only do you have to modify your upper to work with the HK mags, that it is also finekey with surplus mags [although I doubt to the extent that the FAL mag version is]

IMHO, the only question is magazines, and the only answer is Pmags. It doesen't matter how pretty a rifle is if it does not feed, or if mags are so expensive that you only end up buying 2-3 extras, or even if you can buy mags for $2.99 each by the case, but half of them don't work. Everything else can be changed or modified to suit the shooter, but the magazines are the one critical point that will make or break your rifle. You can always install a better trigger, different sights, a freefloat tube, heck even a different barrel if you like, but you cannot change magazines. Best of all the DPMS rifles are among the cheapest, so you can use the $$ you saved to add goodies.


AR10-A designation rifles use PMAGS.
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Posted: 2/14/2012 3:42:59 PM EST
what he said, its all about the mags. My DPMS order has been placed.
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Posted: 2/14/2012 4:11:49 PM EST
As a potential .308/7.62 semi-automatic custom build or complete rifle consumer, I think it would be wise to try and understand the current market/demand. If people continue to demand DPMS over a different semi-automatic rifle "style" then the manufacturers of aftermarket components or replacement components will need to shift or meet those demands if they want to stay in business. I'm new to this AR platform but it seems like consumer demand will dictate a "standard" or "style" to exist.

I started this post to try and get feedback on other peoples assessment of the current market. People/consumers really do have the power to dictate how companies deal with their respective markets.
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Posted: 2/14/2012 6:05:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By crocodile427:
There is no need for a "standard" in the 308 ARs. Jesus, get the fuck over yourselves people. There is absolutely no fucking need to standardize these rifles. The only reason for it, is for the stupid idiots who cant distinguish one manufacturer from another, or those who dont know what barrel nut they have. Its fucking easy as hell, buy parts from the people who made your gun.

Everything else is personal preference. There is just as much aftermarket support for the Armalite as any other platform. The only thing you CANT get is an ambi mag release.

Armalite makes far better weapons than any Cerberus owned manufacturer, that includes DPMS, Bushy, and Remington. Remington uses the EXACT same parts as DPMS with the ONLY except being the camo jobs and a different barrel.

Armalites weapons have far fewer bad apples leave their shop. If they do, they fix it no problem. With DPMS, its almost like every other rifle is a bad one. All their LPKs are terrible, their quality control is a joke, and I dont think they have any customer service at all.

The only problems you read about Armalites is the old ones which still have old parts, people using jacked up M14 mags because they dont know how to cut a fucking hole, or dumbasses not breaking in their stainless steel barrels correctly.

Armalites GENII mag is one of the most robust and reliable mags out there. You have more options, from 5rd to 25rds. They have the best customer service and quality control out there. All of you who refuse to own Armalite simply because it doesnt take the PMag are complete morons.

There will never be a standard with the 308 ARs. There is no need, gun makers do not need to accommodate you idiots who cant keep track of what rifle you have. Armalite makes a better BCG, better barrel nut, uses better materials for their receivers, machines everything IN HOUSE AND IS NOT OUTSOURCED, has better triggers, and you guessed it, a better magazine.

I dont understand why you people want others to cater to your laziness. Buy what rifle feels best to YOU, buy parts for that rifles, buy extra mags for that rifle, buy ammo for that rifle, if a 20$ mag is your number one concern, you should not be buying these kind of guns. Stick to the AR15, because you are not adult enough to handle an AR10.

So quit crying like little babies, grow some balls, and just buy what gun feels good in your hand. There does not need to be a standard on a weapon that is not used across the world. Who the fuck cares if some military uses it or not. Last I checked, numerous armies from across the world make a SHIT LOAD OF BAD DECISIONS when it comes to equipping there soldiers. USA being in the top of the list. Fuck the Canucks, fuck the Brits, and fuck everyone else. I own an Armalite and will be shooting far longer than any of you with rifles from Cerberus corp.

Buy Armalite, support America!


I am looking into a crystal ball and I see an anger management class in your future...........................cheer up buddy. Life is supposed to be fun.
There is iron in your words of death for all to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. No signed paper can hold the iron. It must come from men. It is good that warriors such as we meet in the struggle of life or death. It shall be life.
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Posted: 2/15/2012 12:42:31 PM EST
Crocodile 427 Is it me or are your last 3 or4 posts contradictory.First you are praising the Armalites then you say you have a Remington R-25 and its great! When you bashed any Cerebus produced gun(Bushmaster, DPMS,and DPMS made Remingtons).I am confused as to your points.I had a 2000 production Armalite AR-10A-4 that I sold in December 2011 and am consideriing getting a Remington R-25.
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Posted: 2/15/2012 12:48:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/15/2012 12:51:26 PM EST by BH1798]
Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
Originally Posted By crocodile427:
There is no need for a "standard" in the 308 ARs. Jesus, get the fuck over yourselves people. There is absolutely no fucking need to standardize these rifles. The only reason for it, is for the stupid idiots who cant distinguish one manufacturer from another, or those who dont know what barrel nut they have. Its fucking easy as hell, buy parts from the people who made your gun.

Everything else is personal preference. There is just as much aftermarket support for the Armalite as any other platform. The only thing you CANT get is an ambi mag release.

Armalite makes far better weapons than any Cerberus owned manufacturer, that includes DPMS, Bushy, and Remington. Remington uses the EXACT same parts as DPMS with the ONLY except being the camo jobs and a different barrel.

Armalites weapons have far fewer bad apples leave their shop. If they do, they fix it no problem. With DPMS, its almost like every other rifle is a bad one. All their LPKs are terrible, their quality control is a joke, and I dont think they have any customer service at all.

The only problems you read about Armalites is the old ones which still have old parts, people using jacked up M14 mags because they dont know how to cut a fucking hole, or dumbasses not breaking in their stainless steel barrels correctly.

Armalites GENII mag is one of the most robust and reliable mags out there. You have more options, from 5rd to 25rds. They have the best customer service and quality control out there. All of you who refuse to own Armalite simply because it doesnt take the PMag are complete morons.

There will never be a standard with the 308 ARs. There is no need, gun makers do not need to accommodate you idiots who cant keep track of what rifle you have. Armalite makes a better BCG, better barrel nut, uses better materials for their receivers, machines everything IN HOUSE AND IS NOT OUTSOURCED, has better triggers, and you guessed it, a better magazine.

I dont understand why you people want others to cater to your laziness. Buy what rifle feels best to YOU, buy parts for that rifles, buy extra mags for that rifle, buy ammo for that rifle, if a 20$ mag is your number one concern, you should not be buying these kind of guns. Stick to the AR15, because you are not adult enough to handle an AR10.

So quit crying like little babies, grow some balls, and just buy what gun feels good in your hand. There does not need to be a standard on a weapon that is not used across the world. Who the fuck cares if some military uses it or not. Last I checked, numerous armies from across the world make a SHIT LOAD OF BAD DECISIONS when it comes to equipping there soldiers. USA being in the top of the list. Fuck the Canucks, fuck the Brits, and fuck everyone else. I own an Armalite and will be shooting far longer than any of you with rifles from Cerberus corp.

Buy Armalite, support America!





Armalite Fanboy??????????????? Geez. I have shot both. I picked up a DPMS with 24" Stainless barrel with a very nice scope for $1400. I was looking at LMT, but for the price, why? All you internet commandoes that need what the military has are just cracking me up!!! Don't buy the BS. It's usually low bid anyway. Buy what you can afford and go learn how to shoot it. My DPMS shoots quarters at 100yds. I can put all my rounds in a man-sized target at 500 yds. I'm happy. Take some medication and go shoot what ever you got.

I do agree there should be a standard on the AR-10 platform. This would greatly aid in getting first rate parts. Again, it is all how consumers buy. If Armalite sees more of the market then so be it. But, one standard would be best for us who like to tinker.
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Posted: 2/15/2012 1:00:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/15/2012 1:00:53 PM EST by HardShell]
I am a CHRISTIAN, a CONSERVATIVE, and a REPUBLICAN... in exactly that order, and completely without apology.
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Posted: 2/16/2012 2:00:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/16/2012 2:02:45 PM EST by crocodile427]
Armalite fan boy to the max!

Im just tired of the standard argument. Its not needed, you like to tinker, make the parts work. Tinkering is not buying parts that already work and putting them together, thats legos. Tinkering is getting something not necessarily designed for you purpose, but you make it work. Thats how I see it anyways, to each their own. Get a TIG welder, and make the parts fit.

i have seen plenty of DPMS rifles shoot great, but they are not standard models. Most have "match" barrels, but then again, most barrels that are longer than 20", are going to shoot great as long as they are broken in properly and the shooter does their part. But, you always gotta pay for those extras. DPMS has to have a 24" inch barrel to be as accurate as Armalite's AR-10T carbine, just sayin.

I personally have always shot better with bolt guns, they seem easier to aim and get better groups with, to me. There are alot of good bolt guns out there out of the box. A few were already named, I personally like Remington, but Tikka, Savage, Sako, plenty are good right out of the box. Not saying they are all lasers past 500yds, but are all usually good up to that point before needing tinkering.

The standard rifles Armalite sells are mostly better right of the box than the competitors. Alot of the higher priced ARs are nothing special beyond good barrels, and a company known for good machining. You could get the cheap DPMS for 900$, but you will most likely need a new barrel, new LPK, preferably new stock, and you are already over 1200$, which you can get a new Armalite A4 and be good to go out of the box. Sure the mages cost 15$ more than PMags, and you gotta order from Armalite, but so what? Its less than the cost of a box of factory ammo in most cases. Drops in a bucket.

Everyone has there own opinion, my opinion is there is no need for a standard, and in my opinion, we all need to build a bridge and get over it, myself included.
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Posted: 2/16/2012 2:03:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By Phantom2:
Crocodile 427 Is it me or are your last 3 or4 posts contradictory.First you are praising the Armalites then you say you have a Remington R-25 and its great! When you bashed any Cerebus produced gun(Bushmaster, DPMS,and DPMS made Remingtons).I am confused as to your points.I had a 2000 production Armalite AR-10A-4 that I sold in December 2011 and am consideriing getting a Remington R-25.


Never said I have a R25. I own Armalite and only Armalite.
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Posted: 2/16/2012 2:45:28 PM EST
Allow me to address some of the rancor here.

With the advent of the 'net and these forums, ANY rifle that ever had ANY issues were brought to the forefront and discussed to death in bulletin boards first and then forums like these. Over the years I've read horror stories about, say the MAS 49/51 that had been converted to 7.62 x51 by CAI. OMGosh, there must be still 1000 posts floating around out there in the ether about that one rifle. Were there some problems with that rifle? Sure. Was it systemic and did it affect the majority of them out there? Absolutely not. It was a simple handful but the 'net blew it all out of proportion. I know. I owned three and knew of a number of others with no problems.

The same goes here.

We find that DPMS or Armalite may have had a bad handful of units escape quality control scrutiny and those new owners lambaste the project as if it had blown up in their face and that feeds the fire. "Hey! I just read that XXX makes crap" and on and on. And, to boot, the more units out there the more chances are that there might be an issue with a very small percentage.

Remember, the manufacturers have been pumping these things out by the thousands day in and day out as fast as they can make 'em and there are bound to be small issues that require a return. They are machines that require serious tolerances. Ultimately, however, there is nothing....zero...that is systemically bad about ANY brand discussed here. It's just that every time there is a problem, the first place the new owner goes is to the internet and forums asking what to do, why did this happen, piece 'o junk...etc., etc.

Rest assured that there are some brands that are held to a very high standard of quality control and cost more than a larger production rifle. In the end, however, these machines all work extremely well and handle the calibers with finesse, ruggedness and safety. They are beasts to be sure. They also carry a lot of brand-loyalty with many of them since they also offer the .223 caliber AR15s.

The OPs question about interchangeability wasn't really ever addressed, either. It's a legitimate question and one that we've asked many times before. If our military decides to make this rifle part of the stable on a large scale, most assuredly you'll find a standard set. Right now, however, you've got a handful of uppers and lowers that can't mate because of specific design incompatibilities. Eventually it'll sort out as more and more of them are made and get into the field. It's going to be like the old video tape contest to see which one would eventually become the standard. Beta was better but the other won out.

Rememer the old song that said "Love the one you're with!" Enjoy your rifle and don't dump on eveyone else!

Rome
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  • Joined May 2009
  • Posts 29
  • Location USA MI, USA
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Basic
  • Joined May 2009
  • Posts 29
  • Location USA MI, USA
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Posted: 2/16/2012 3:14:05 PM EST
I don't have the experience with AR's that most of you guys do but I can put in what my small opinion is.
I have an R15 and love the way it shoots. Very very accurate and consistant.
I'd love to have the R25 but settled on the Oracle.
Yes the triggers suck. I just spent $125 more and bought a RR trigger that popped right in and is tons better than stock.
I swapped out the gracier guards for railed guards that fit in the same space.
This is not free floated and still shoots right at MOA out the the 400 that I've had the chance to take it to so far.
I'm sure when I tweak my loads and have more than a couple rounds through it that it will get even better.

I can't say enough good things about Cerberus built weapons platforms.
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