I have owned two Grendels for about five years now.  I don't shoot them as often as I like do to the expensive ammunition costs.  The only magazines I have seen around lately are the C-Products line of magazines.  I have only had issues with two magazines from the factory for the Grendel, but I wanted to see what others thought about the magazine quality for the 6.5 Grendels.  I use the 26 rounders.

For those with Grendels would your 6.5 Grendel be your go to gun in a SHTF fan senario, or would you grab another gun with a magazine such as a PMAG for the added confidence?

Are there any other manufacturers that make good 6.5 Grendel magazines other than C-Products?   I know about the factory Alexander Arms mags, but they are just rebranded c-products at three times the cost.

6.5 would be a good one to start out with but a nato based upper  on the backburner would be more ideal if you survive through your grendel ammo stash. then you can pick up ammo on the way

i love these discussions.

My 16 inch Grendel would be my go to gun.
I initially had the same concerns but my 25 round
mags have proven very reliable over the years.

I'm curious as to why you would go to a Grendel. Preference or is there a reason I am missing?

I like the round very much, my only concern would be ammo availability. I know, in a SHTF scenario, you probably won't be able to scrounge for 5.56 either

For the size of the gun, the Grendel offers a good across-the-practical and extended ranges carbine platform, with a lot of bullet types for both close-in and intermediate shooting.  It also makes a great hunting system that covers most of the game in the US.

I also have a 16" Grendel, but I haven't done enough high-volume shooting with it to trust it yet in that caacity.  I've only really done 5-round strings for accuracy and load development over the past few years.  I'm getting ready to start doing some rapid strings with it using 100gr bullets, since I got so little recoil with my 100gr Nosler Ballistic Tip loads, and those would do some pretty ugly damage on people.  You can run the 100gr bullets out a 16" barrel at least 2700fps, if not more.

I haven't had any malfunctions with the Grendel though, with 123gr Scenars, 120gr SMK's, 123gr Wolf SP's (they will foul the crap out of your barrel) and 100gr NBT's.  It has run every time.

I have lots of 25rd CProducts mags, just haven't blasted with it yet.  Wolf might help with that when it hits the shelves in the steel case format.

My 5.56 carbines are built to run reliably, and I have boxes of 69gr SMK's to do 500m+ shooting with.  I got the Grendel mainly for a lightweight hunting rig, really.

I have kept it by the bedside with 100gr NBT's, next to our 5.56 carbines as well though.

One cool thing about the Grendel is that you can fire form 7.62x39 brass into Grendel brass.  In a SHTF scenario, you know there will be a lot of 7.62x39 ammo raound.

The problem being that most 7.62X39 is steel cased & Berdan primed, so I'm not too sure how well a guy could fire form them.

But if you ran across brass cased x39, you'd be gtg.

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I have a 16" 6.5 Grendel that I normally keep scoped but if things are going bad my duty rifle with E O Tech is closer at hand and it has been utter reliable.  I only have about 200 rounds through my 6.5 G so I don't quite have the confidence in it that I have in my  16" 5.56.  For two legged problems I feel my 5.56 and ammo are up to the task if I do my part.  I bought my 6.5 G for hog and varmint hunting and I wanted a 6.5 G which matched the handling qualities of my duty AR.

Why? Because in my humble opinion it is the best option available for my needs.
Out of a 16 inch gun the Grendel makes a fantastic General Purpose cartridge that does
everything well.

In the prehistoric days of the 1980s and 1990s you had to choose between something like a
7.62x51mm NATO battle rifle
or
5.56x45mm
with perhaps a .30 carbine or 7.62x39mm AK thrown in.

So you either went with a long and heavy 7.62x51mm M1A/FAL/G3 which handled like a
dumptruck axle, with equally heavy ammo which made you feel like a 'real man' with its .30 caliber
punch and long reach. And you just sucked up all the inherent shortcomings in the basic system
as a whole (weight, recoil, muzzle blast, size, expense)

or you went with a 5.56 which was light and handy and accurate with low recoil. And you just accepted
your 55 grain M193 was going to bounce off a stiff breeze. If you went with a .30 carbine you had jack
for reach. 7.62x39mm? Seemed to be the best combination, but lacked reach/accuracy.

The 6.5mm Grendel does away with the whole argument.
While it can not match the 7.62x51mm NATO in payload or kinetic energy, it comes close enough for me.
My 16 inch carbine makes hits at 600 yards easily, and delivers substantially more energy at this
distance than other intermediates.
Up close it is very controllable, shoots through intermediate barriers well, has excellent terminal performance.
It will easily take big game or drop 2 legged trouble. Plus it will do everything I need in a relatively compact
and lightweight package which handles very well.

Reliability? It is not an issue for me. I have 5 gallon buckets of empties. I shoot my Grendels a lot. Reliability is
flawless, despite the fact I almost never clean it. Years ago when the cartridge was first introduced I had some
mag problems. But I have not had any in years. I have maybe thirty 25 round mags and have zero issues. I have evolved
and tuned my carbine a great deal over the years.

If I didn't want a General Purpose rig, but was only concerned with 300 yards and in, I'd grab my 12.5 inch Grendel.  

I live in Kansas, so reach is a concern for me. I can see a LONG WAYS here. My 16 inch gun will ruin your day
at 600 yards and do the same at 800 yards if I stay up on the wind. I shoot it out to 800 yards on a regular basis.
(I have my own range with steel running out to 800 yards). If you haven't figure it out, I don't go for that "I'll use 7.62 NATO
for long range and my 5.56 up close" talk. I don't carry two rifles. That's dumb. Besides, Murphy says which ever rifle you
pick will be the wrong one. So I'd rather have one rifle which will do whatever I want.

At the same time, I don't want to set the gun up for what would likely be 5% of likely shots. So while it can reach to 600+
yards it is a short and handy 16 inch carbine which weighs 7.7 pounds with white light, ACOG w/red dot and sling. So its very efficient
and capable up close.

In my opinion
5.45x39mm has a nicely designed case with good taper and a thick rim. But there are zip for modern loads for it outside
of one from Hornady. Basically anything the 5.45 can do the 5.56 can do better.

5.56 is a great cartridge, one of my all time favorites. New bullet design brings it up a noticeable level. I probably shoot more
5.56 than anything else besides .22LR. I like it, but wish it had more punch.

6x45mm in my opinion doesn't offer enough of a step up to bother with. Especially not with the new generation of modern bullets.

6.8 SPC II Good round, I could run one but went with Grendel and am happy. In my opinion this would be the next best option to
Grendel.

7.62x39mm A dumb idea by the Russians. They should have listened to Fedorov and not copied the German 7.92x33K. They could have
done much better. It works well up close, has good penetration but the BC of a brick.

.300 Whisper/AAC Interesting in subsonic, less so when it comes to supersonic. I think there are better options available then stubby .30 caliber
bullets. But I'll have one, because I can........

.458 Socom.....good for shooting vehicles filled with zombies giving you a hard time (my pick).

.50 Beowulf also good for shooting vehicles filled with mutant bikers.....dig?

So, for me in my particular location the 6.5mm Grendel fits my particular needs best.
Now....if I can just get a .22 conversion kit for it from Alexander Arms........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

When I did it I converted them to Boxer.


But simply using Boxer primed cases is the way to go......

Dave,

Thanks for your assessment.  As soon as the burn em' ammo starts flowing in, I think it will change things for a lot of people.  I haven't been able to justify or even contemplate burning Lapua brass like I do my 5.56 blasters, so I've been stuck with slow-fire, accuracy, load development.

As you said, the Grendel makes an excellent all-round, light-recoiling, multi-purpose system that will continue to garner more support as people become more aware of its many benefits.

Have you loaded up that Lapua/Sako brass yet?  Interested to hear how it turns out...

Damn, I figured that fireforming wouldn't do much, if anything to steel. I guess its more mild than I thought.

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Prehistoric days??? Well, I guess that makes me a dinosaur.

Interesting opinion. Perhaps my all-time favorite rifle is the M1A shown below.



I consider the fit, feel, and handling of that rifle vastly superior to any AR-15.

I still have a copy of your article on the M14K you wrote years ago. One of my favorite articles ever.....

But, I am no longer a fan of 7.62mm NATO rifles.
If they work for anyone else, great.

But my personal needs are different.

Sure that rifle looks sexy with the E2 stock, but how much does it weigh? How much would it weigh if you
added an optic, sling and white light?

No optic means a lower hit probability, especially at distance and in low light.
No magnification means a harder time spotting and ID'ing targets.

No white light? No thanks. I would not go without a white light after being in Iraq.

That is the perfect example of old school thinking I believe is obsolete in the face of
modern intermediate cartridges like the Grendel and 6.8. That family of rifle would not
even exist if US Army ordnance had learned a variety of lessons from both World War I
and World War II. If they wanted to ignore the Avtomat or Ribeyrolle 1918 that is one thing,
but blowing off the MP43 was ignorant......

But that is simply my opinion.

Yeah steel fireforms just like brass......

6.5G mags are just 6.8 mags with 6.5 marked followers(followers are the same just a different color and stamp), so you can use any of the available 6.8 mags in your Grendel's(C-Prod, ASC, PRI, Barrett, & soon D&H). The new D&H 6.8 mags are nice, once fixed and released in mid Dec they will probably be the best and cheapest option for a high quality mag for the 6.5G.

Has anyone confirmed this with testing? It would be cool if true!

agreed, someone prove this in case I wake up one morning and decide to rejoin the grendel bandwagon. I dont have to hoard a bunch more mags.

That is absolutely true.  The Army Ordnance Corps screwed not only the US Military, but our NATO partners as well with the adoption of the 7.62 NATO/Battle Rifle Concept in the glaring face of the recent developments in maneuver warfare that had changed the face of combat forever.  The Sturmgewehr was the most promising fighting instrument design for the dismounted and motorized rifleman, aside from the caliber...so the Army Ordnance Corps chose a re-hash of the prohibitively-long Garand, with a detachable box magazine and a less reliable gas system...nice job.

It would be interesting to see how the AR10 would have fared if the British .280 Enfield had been adopted as the NATO rifle/LMG cartridge, rather than 7.62.  The original AR10's are one of the most pleasant battle rifles to shoot, even in 7.62 NATO.  We basically have something similar to that "could have been" system with the Grendel, which has superior BC projectiles.

+1

I just grabbed one of my PRI mags and the follower is not the same as a Grendel mag.
The body diameter of the two cartridges is different, and that is reflected in the follower
design. I can only get 10 or 11 rounds of Grendel in this particular 6.8 PRI mag. I'll have
to try a few more......

PRI's 6.8 followers are different than other 6.8 followers so you will not be able to directly compare them to anything made for the 6.5G.

The two that are exactly the same are the C-prod 6.5 & 6.8, the 6.5G mags just use a blue version of the 6.8 follower. I ordered 6.8 mags from them and got two 6.5G mags by mistake and when I called to get them replaced they told me they were exactly the same and indeed they are.

ETA: These are some older C-prod mags so it's possible they have made a change to their 6.5 followers over time but the 6.5 mags use 6.8 mag bodies for sure.

Yes please!!!

There are a few guys on the Grendel Forum who have said they use PRI mags without issue.  Some even use them to get more COAL.

Thanks. I think it was one of my best articles ever.

I freely admit to being "old school" about most of that. I never wanted optics, lights, lasers, or other gadgets and gizmos on my rifles. A Steyr AUG is the only military-type rifle I ever owned with an optical sight, and that's solely because iron sights were not an option.

But, I wasn't advocating either the 7.62x51 or the M1A. I was just saying that my opinion of the handling of the M1A is markedly different from yours. With the E2 stock, it fit me just perfectly, with better balance and handling than any other rifle in my experience.

I agree that 6.5 Grendel is a better choice than 7.62 NATO. In fact, if I could get a lightweight carbine in that caliber, with the same fit, feel and handling of my M1AE2, that'd be nearly my ideal rifle.

LAR is making Grendels now...just got back from the Gun Show here in Sandy, UT.  LAR is in West Valley, and are the biggest suppliers/machiners of lowers and uppers for all the other AR15 "manufacturers".  They are also making AR10's with forged receivers, and had a .260 Rem prototype on the floor, which looked and felt really nice.

Like I said, there will be a lot of manufacturers releasing Grendels this coming SHOT...I can feel it.

I understand what you are saying. Things like that vary greatly with size, strength, reach and personal tastes.

I have a sporterized Berthier which would likely make many retch.......but I think it handles and feels great.

Good point.

Add another manufacturer to the Grendel line-up.

LAR Mfg.

I looked on their website, and didn't see anything on the Grendle. Is this a brand new addition to their line up?

LAR is based in the Salt Lake Valley, and showed this at this weekends gun show in Salt Lake.

Must not be up on their site yet.

Well said.  I would like to see a 6.8 brass based cartrige designed to shoot the long 6.5 bullets out of an AR magazine though.  Might be better then grendel.

Yup. But, I've often wondered what performance could be had if you shorten the SPC case to Grendel length, then neck down to take the long 6.5 bullets. Since the smaller SPC case diameter allows higher pressure at the same bolt thrust, perhaps it could get close to Grendel velocities?

I can confirm the C-Products 6.8SPC 25 round magazines work just fine with both my 6.5 uppers. I have a couple of dozen and they're all GTG for both calibers. I will say that some of the mag springs are not that great and I have swapped in ISMI springs to great effect.

This.

Now that steel cased ammo is soon to be available (Spring 2012), practice will become more common.

I really hope they can keep up with demand

I was just out shooting this weekend with several AR's.  3 of the 5.56 carbines, my Grendel, and my .260 Rem.

I was pleasantly surprised at how little felt recoil there is with a lightweight 16" Grendel and 100gr Nosler Ballistic Tips running over 2700 fps...it felt negligible compared to equally-configured AR's shooting from a standing position.  I picked up some more 100gr NBT's at Cabella's and will load them up soon.  That would be a nasty round for 2-legged critters.

Yes, the 100 grain bullets are pretty mild.
I ran some 100 grain handloads out of my 20 inch gun today.
100 grain Hornady SP on top of a charge of H335 in
Wolf brass and lit with a Russian primer.
They were zipping out at 2,820 fps with zero
signs of pressure.

I need to chrono it out of my 12.5 inch gun....

I have some 100 grain AMAXs I have to try and
am still playing with my 100 grain TTSX load........

I would be very interested to see these chrono'd

The 85gr out of a 12.5" barrel would be interesting.  Nobody has really done a lot of load development with the SBR's in Grendel so far, that I know of, since it was originally intended as a deer-hunting cartridge.  If we use the 1gr of bullet weight=20fps lost or gained, an 85gr out of a 16" should be going over 3000fps.  3.5" cut off that barrel (12.5" barrel) would likely yield between 80-105fps less, giving a velocity of around or over 2900fps.

We need to do SBR testing with these projectiles:

Sierra 85gr HP
Speer 90gr TNT Varmint Grenade
Hornady 95gr VMAX

I think we would have some serious 2-legged critter destroyers with mv's in the 2800-3000fps range out of short barrels.

I like this math

you stole my thunder. Grendels perform the best in terms of velocity in a 20-24" config IMO. Exponential loss of velocity is an appropriate argument. Fast powder and staying below 100g may get you closer, but the 6.8SPC may steal the velocity competition in a SBR config. I dont think you could get 2800 fps from a 90g considering the fastest I have seen a 90g out of a 14.5" barrel was around 2720.

I'm with Forest on this. I am playing with 100 grain bullets right now but I think I have some 95s on the shelf I can try.
Chasing velocity is fun, but I think 120-123s offer the best performance in this caliber.
But I am still interested to see what I can get out of a 12.5 inch barrel.
I'm going to try some different powders to see what that does.
But 3,000 fps sounds a bit................optimistic.......

HOLY CRAP !!!!!! Are you psychic ?

Here's what popped into my mind for a retirement project when the 6.5 Grendel was first announced .

Mini-Thirty action + fluted 6.5 Grendel barrel+ M14 style gas system = WIN !


Op- rod would need some modding and I don't know if the conversion to take 6.5 Grendel magazines I envisioned would be feasible until it was tried.

If you look at the powders that most are loading with for the Grendel, they are in a lower burn-rate section of the spectrum because most are playing with long bullets with lots of bearing surface.  Even the 100gr NBT's have a lot of bearing surface compared to same weight in .277 that will fit in the 6.8 case.

With a 12.5", you should still be able to get a minimum of 2600 fps with the 85gr SHP, or around there with the 90gr TNT.  With purpose-mixed powders for that barrel length and bullet weight, bearing surface, I bet the 2800's might not be out of reach.  We get 2900fps with 62gr 5.56 out of a 14.5" AR15, with less powder and a more columned case, versus the fatter Grendel case.  Point is there is a lot of room for development in the SBR Grendel that just hasn't been explored much.

If a 12.5" Grendel does have the potential to scream with lighter projectiles for the PDW/car gun role, that's just icing on the cake.  My personal interests are in 16"-18" guns for hunting really.

I've long thought a 6.5 Grendel would be perfect for all of the reasons listed, glad to see my opinions validated by someone like Dave :)