Just adding to what doc said.  You don't do load work ups with virgin brass.  In the information you got from doc there should have been a starting or fire-forming load in there, if not it is the lowest load for the weight of the bullet you are using.  Once the virgin cases have been fire-formed or pushed the shoulders forward and case expands to meet the chamber, then you can measure the water volume of the fire-formed case.  this will allow you to then figure how much powder you can use for your load wok ups, which is generally about 5-6 gr of powder less than the water capacity depending on the brand of brass that you are using.  PRIMERS ARE THE WORST THING TO USE AS A MEASUREMENT OF PRESSURE.  You need to measure the pressure rings on every piece of brass prior to firing and the re-measure them after firing.  If there is any variance above .001" then there is pressure sign.  If you have a variance of .003", stop and back the load down 1 gr of powder because this is your maximum load for that rifle/ cartridge combination.  Semi-autos are hard to judge because they cycle the ammunition automatically and you, as the shooter, cannot truly "feel" the hard extraction of the bolt like on a bolt action rifle.  Hope this helps some.  Good luck and stay safe.

What "pressure rings" are you talking about? I need a pic of what it is you are describing. I have been loading for over 10 years, and have never heard of this. Any new information is good information. I  go by the primer depending on type, and if the fire formed brass after the second firing will fit into a shell holder. If it does not fit into the shell holder easy the web has expanded, and primer pocket will be loose. This can lead to other problems if you continue to load at that level. That is my experience anyway.

I believe Nick meant the case web or web "ring" as Nick referred to it to help measure over-pressure signs with the case head and/or case web diameter differences after firing
your loads and then measuring your fire-formed brass cases for your new case capacity limits, etc...

Not exactly doc.  It is the area just above the case web, usually where the case head separations are most prevalent.  Read the attached article:

http://www.centerfirecentral.com/articles/pressure.htm

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=363004

http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/pressure_signs.html

Hope this helps a little more.  This type of measurement has bee around a lot longer than the "primer reading".

Thanks for the confirmation Nick, those were good articles/posts and yes it is true when a situation of that type does present it's self the
area above the case web is the area which can/should be looked at and a area for close Inspection or measurement...

Neither the case web expansion, nor primers are good indicators of pressure.

The chronograph compared with solid load data, or even better, strain gauges and piezoelectric meters installed and operated by someone with a lot of experience will tell you what is going on in the chamber.

I've used the case web expansion measurement approach, and could see no difference between loads that were under 49,000psi, vs. loads that departed from the pressure curve and started cratering primers.  It's a waste of time from a reloader's perspective, in my opinion.

I have a yellow, coverless Lyman Gun Sight Corporation Ideal Hand Book No. 32 reloading manual that goes into pretty great depth to discuss primer condition, after running several series of pressure testing with copper crush method using 3 different types of primers in the .30-06. They took the pressures up to 70,000psi, and only one of the primer types blew out in those tests. The other two showed varying degrees of primer cratering, but very light from what I can see in the photographs.  These primers signs are often considered acceptable by many reloaders, and nothing to worry about, when the reality is that they have no clue what pressures they are into.

In a gas-operated rifle that was engineered around the .222 Remington, I can tell you that 70,000psi will start to make things bend out of shape in even a small diet of loads.

I would agree with you that pressure testing equipment is the only reliable way to test your loads for pressure...with that said, most people/hand loaders don't have
the luxury or the time or money for such systems so we have to rely on time tested Indicators re-loaders have used for decades...

I would also suggest that one of the best ways for high pressure Indication is to use a quality/accurate chronographs and looks for signs of velocity drop off while
Increasing your ladder testing and then paying close attention to the velocity, standard deviation, and spread, etc.

Modern brass (85,000 PSI tensile strength) and higher pressure modern rifle loads (>35,000 PSI) do make it more difficult to judge high pressure signs for today's
re-loader, so using modern reloading load guides, fired brass, 20X loupe's , digital calipers, and quality/accurate chronographs are what the average re-loader has
to help judge higher than normal pressures...

Thanks.

Went to the range a few days ago and here are the results:
With Sierra HP Varminter 85g / H335 / cci 450 primers / OAL-2.280 / 3 shot groups / 91deg
30.2g - avg 2948fps .90" group
30.4g - avg 2972fps 1.5" group
30.6g - avg 2947fps 1.15" group
30.7g - avg 2976fps 1.15" group
30.8g - avg 2966fps  (one shot)

Accuracy was not as good as usual. I will retest the last three loads on here to see if accuracy will improve and confirm velocity

Also began testing Hogdon H4198 to see what it will do, here are the results, only one shot per load so do not have accuracy yet.
Sierra HP varminter 85g / H4198 /Remington BR primers / OAL-2.260 /all Fire formed brass except those noted. / 91 deg
20g - 2404fps
20.5g - 2430fps
21g - 2601fps
21.5g - 2552fps
22g - 2593fps
non of these rounds would cycle the bolt properly
24.3g - 2718fps not fire formed
24.7g - 2782fps not fire formed
25.1g 2711fps
These cycled the bolt properly.

TNT 90g / H4198 / cci 400 / OAL - 2.285 / 91 deg / all Fire formed brass
23.9g - 2506 fps
24.3g - 2519 fps
24.7g - 2601 fps
25.1g - 2708 fps

Sierra HP Varminter 100g / H4198 / cci 400 / OAL 2.285 / Fire formed brass / 91 deg
22g - 2260 fps
22.5g - 2343 fps
23g - 2436 fps
23.4g - 2473 fps
23.8g - 2465 fps
24.2g - 2497 fps

Hornady Vmax 95g / H4198 / cci 400 / OAL 2.30 / fire formed brass / 91 deg
23g - 2470 fps
23.5g - 2550 fps
24g - 2606 fps
24.5g - 2646 fps

Hornady SST 123g / H4198 / cci 400 / OAL 2.305 / fire formed brass / 91 deg
20.5g - 2050 fps

No pressure signs on any of the loads above, will continue to go up and begin shooting 3 shop groups to find accuracy nodes. there is still plenty of room in the cases for more powder so this powder may do well in my Gun (24" barrel)

Thanks for the update SpinLite1, It seems like H4891 powder with the 95gr. Hornady V-Max combo may turn out to be a winning load if accuracy turns out to
be in the 1 MOA or less at 100 yards....Thanks again and keep us posted.

We will also be trying the all new LDCC monolithic (all brass) 95gr. BTHP hunting rounds for the 6.5mm PCC as well as re-exploring the use of the 100 gr.
Barnes TAC-TX pills in the 6.5mm PCC with a 22" Bbl...One of our new end users will also be giving the LDCC 95 grainers a spin and it will be Interesting
to see how they run...

Also, we will be giving a quick spin to the new Mako/E-Lander Steel 5.56mm NATO mags with the Teflon finish...These mags look very promising and seem
to offer a really good COL, fit and finish also look very good, It looks very similar to the (5.56 NATO) H&K-416 Marine German made mags....We will post
some pics tomorrow...

Hopefully, the weather will co-operate in the coming weekends so we can get some more testing done with the above mentioned Items...

Stay tuned and thanks to all who have contributed to this thread/forum with your Ideas, load data, and experiences...

I have been very impressed so far with the 95g vmax, so far in my gun I always get better velocity out of the 95g vmax than I do the 90g TNT, but I am almost out of 95g vmax and have not been able to find anymore.

I would be very interested in trying this new 95g monolithic bullet when it becomes available, any idea what they will cost?

I hope the Mako mags work out I have always liked that company and the products they offer, their prices are very reasonable.

They are available now @ $29.99 per 100 count box for the 95gr. weight class...They are a all brass construction in a BTHP design with good BC and excellent terminal
performance according to the manufacture...They are made by Lehigh Defense LLC and are a premium class projectile and part of their "Controlled Chaos" hunting and
tactical line.

https://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php/shop/bullets/controlled-chaos/134/.2014-05-28-03-26-42_-detail


Check out the video clip below with the .30 Cal version below (they also make them in other popular calibers)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lu3F1Cc0JQ


Cheaper than dirt has the Mako/E-Lander 5.56mm NATO mags (Made in Israel) at a very good price...

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/MAG-0581


Thanks guys.

I did use the D & H .300 blk mag you sent on some 300 blackout I was testing and it functioned flawlessly, I have not tried it with the 6.5pcc since all my loads are too long for it.

The COL's on these mags tend to vary quite a bit, so we were a bit disappointed on the COL lengths being as short as 2.272", but
on the plus side they do seem to function very reliably as you have noted earlier...

We will also post up the load data spreadsheet for the 6.5mm PCC round (actual field results) very soon for everyone to see, and we
would like to thank all of those who have helped to get this all done, from load data development/postings, to getting the spreadsheet
listing done. I must say that we have a great bunch guys on this thread (end users) who are very knowledgeable and have done some
great work with this round.

Thanks again SpinLite1, and keep us posted...

Made it out to the range Friday for a few more sets of load development.

100 Grain Nosler Ballistic Tips -
Non-fire formed brass, H335 Powder & Wolf magnum primers
26.8gr - 2507fps
27.1gr - 2530fps
27.4gr - 2578fps
27.7gr - 2612fps



Got the controlled chaos rounds in, they are quite long, so are the Barnes 100gr TTSX
Few ladders loaded up with H322 & X-terminator
I'll report back in a few weeks

Bruizer, thanks for the range report...The 95gr. LDCC pills should measure in at 1.125" and the Barnes 100 gr. TTSX should come in at 1.185" or so...The monolithic
pills are always long for caliber since copper and brass alloys weigh less than lead based pills...

Let us know how everything goes, we also ordered a few boxes of both and they should be here within the next few days or so, and will be heading to the range/countryside
in the next week or two...

How long are the 95 gr. LDCC pills you have been sent by them ? They are advertised as being 1.125" long, are you finding them to be longer ?

Thanks again.

Thanks Bruizer, so it is a little bit longer than advertised by .0095" .

Those Lehigh bullets look pretty darned sexy!  I wonder if an 85 gr version would more suit the needs as an all purpose bullet for the 6.5PCC, especially in a monometal construction.  As I have noted in the past through testing, is that bullets 1.000" and less are the best performers in the COL(s) of 2.300" and less in length due to powder capacities and magazine restrictions for velocity gain.

We are looking to see if we can get these in a 85 gr. version which would give us better performance out of the 6.5mm PCC case...However,
I have a buddy that is getting just over 2,800 fps with a similar round to ours out of a 22" Bbl. with no pressure signs with the 95 grain
version...

So, this warrants further testing out of the 6.5mm PCC round and  barrel to see what type of accuracy and velocity it can achieve...

Thanks.

These bullets are very impressive performers in 223, 300bo and 308. Do you have any info about the velocity window for expansion/fragmentation? It would seem that they are intended to be pushed fast given that they are light-for-caliber in most applications. I wonder if this would affect them in the PCC.

From what I understand they are designed to perform very well from 1,800 fps. and above as far as velocity is concerned... I will be in contact
with them in the coming days and weeks to further discuss performance thresholds of this projectile to get a better Idea of the specifics...

They are also well suited for tactical uses as well, not just hunting, according to the manufacturer...Now, with the fire formed 6.5mm PCC
cases we may be able to surpass 2,900 fps. with the same barrel length of 22" .

The field testing once it has begun will hopefully give us a better Idea on where we stand with the external ballistics of this projectile in the
6.5mm PCC round...You are certainly correct in that it seems to perform very well in the .223 Rem., .300 Blk., and 308 Win.

Thanks guys.

FYI

Midway has some blemished 123 grain 6.5mm bullets. Opened one box, and they have a red plastic tip, and cannelure .  Eyeballing them, the shape is a little different than A-Max 123 bullets. At $23/100 doesn't seem too bad. Yes, they are a little tarnished.

Those are the Hornady 123 gr SSTs.

Lehigh ran a big sale on the controlled chaos bullets. I got the last 3 boxes of 250 to play with after people mentioned it earlier. I'm still curious on the velocity window.

Now my big dilemma is do I go grendel or Pcc? I have an mgi hydra that is set up to run select fire with my lightning link and I have the x39 conversion and bolt. This is the best way for me to play with things due to ease of barrel changes.

Grendel also uses powder I have in bulk for 223. (Cfe, 8208 and 335). On the other hand, I have no brass. I also have no mags, but might play with x39 mags even Though the taper is off.

The Pcc would also work with 335, but I don't have anything just a tad faster to experiment with. I also don't have a great trim setup for this type of case forming (rt1200 only), plus that's more complicated than just rolling with factory brass (or saving the brass from Amax factory loads). Of course I have a boatload of 223 brass if I do want to play with it.

Either way, I need a barrel.

Decisions, decisions.

I have a custom trim die for the dillon if you wanted to borrow it to make some brass i would lend it to you. I have plenty of brass made up already.

if wanting to go grendel route check out ar15performance. Harrison will have his grendel out in a couple of months. he is using the x39 style bolt and he will also put his 800 series bolt on it so you can run up to 60,000 psi with it.  it will run factory grendel ammo also.

What powder?

H335 powder.

Hmmm.  I have a keg of this so this is tempting. I dont see much, if any, speed advantage for the grendel. What I need to investigate is how these would be affected by a short barrel. I would really like to keep it in the 12-14" range if possible.

Is there any sbr data out there? I read back through and see lots of 18-22" data, but nothing under 16". If I just missed it, let me know and I'll search for it.

It looks like I could get around 2250-2300 with the 123 grain and 2500-2600 with the 95 grain leheigh with the grendel in a 12.5".

We do have a end user with a 10.5" Bbl. Pistol/SBR version, however, he has not yet announced his work or findings yet...We are
hoping he will do so in the near future. He has a can for the barrel for use in a suppressed/tactical role...

I would also be running a 7" lightweight titanium 308 can on this rig. I would probably go a tad longer (maybe 12.5"), but then again, that depends on numbers. Do you have any QL predictions for the most popular bullets? I need to get the program, but keep putting those funds towards other uses.

I have already bought several boxes of the Lehigh CC's and was considering some 123 SST's from Midway that they had on clearance. Those are obviously gredel specific, but seem to be usable (at least with the tips pulled).

ETA: for powder, I have 335, cfe, tac, 8208, a very limited amount of 1680 (less than 1.5lbs) and about 3lbs of Lil Gun.

We will be putting the full load data sheet here and on the website all 25 pages worth in the next few days...They are from 18", 20", 22", and 24" Bbl.
lengths...Generally speaking you will loose about 20fps to 40fps per Inch of barrel loss depending on loads/powders used...

Ronnl001, If we get a new 20" Bbl. here in time (within two weeks), we can send it out to you with dies for testing if you like, before contemplating possible
purchase etc...

The 95gr. Lehigh pills are very promising so far (velocity)...

Most of those powders will work you have listed above....

I like it...for several reasons.

Let me know. I'd need some brass and/or dies as well and I would probably prefer to buy some brass from you formed if I could to get the best results as my time is unfortunately limited these days and most of my tools are packed as we are moving in November. If we could get that worked out, I could run some ladders with the Lehigh. I missed the SST blems from Midway by waiting. I'm generally curious to see if the MGI barrel system is capable of holding good accuracy in general. The barrel nut replacement system of cams is interesting -- especially if it will shoot.

PM me when the barrels come in and we can discuss.

We will keep you posted, and yes dies and formed brass will be Included...

Almost completed my third round of Load testing today with the H4198 powder, I am pleased with the results, due to limited time I did not shoot the 123g SST's today but hopefully will be able to shoot them next trip to the range, I will keep adding data that others post on this thread, plus my own data to the spread sheet that DR69 will be posting up soon, and periodically we can repost the latest version. I do not have my load book with me right now so I can not tell you what OAL these were loaded to, I can add that later.


6.5pcc data
H4198 powder
Temp 90 deg
Primers - Rem BR

Sierra HP Varminter 85g
25.5g
Error-Chrono did not read
2940 fps
2974 fps
Group - 9/16"

25.9g
2995 fps
2981 fps
3002 fps
Group - 1/4" (Slight pressure signs) All 3 holes were touching

26.3g
3015 fps
3013 fps
3030 fps
Group - 3/4" (extreme pressure signs) will not go this high again

TNT 90g
25.5g
2917 fps
2936 fps
2921 fps
Group - 1 3/8"

25.9g
2933 fps
2948 fps
2919 fps
Group - 7/8"

26.3g
2975 fps
2969 fps
2989 fps
group - 3/4" (best group with the 90g TNT)

26.7g
3019 fps
3029 fps
2988 fps
Group - 7/8"

27.1g
3042 fps
3038 fps
3033 fps
Group - 2 1/4" (mild pressure signs, very bad group, but supprised how good velocity getting with 90g)

Sierra HP Varminter 100g
24.6g
2747 fps
2764 fps
2736 fps
Group - 1 1/16"

25.0g
2786 fps
2785 fps
2775 fps
Group - 1 1/8"

25.3g
2796 fps
2775 fps
2813 fps
Group - 3/4"

25.6g
2836 fps
2844 fps
2813 fps
Group - 1 1/2" (remove flyer and it is 1/8" group)

25.9g
2846 fps
2865 fps
2834 fps
Group - 1/2" ( best group with the Sierra 100g ) ( very slight pressure signs)

Still have a lot more room to go on the following loads, the Vmax 95 grain in these loads would not properly cycle the bolt.
21.0g
2345 fps
2334 fps
2 shot group - 1 1/16"

21.5g
2400 fps
2402 fps
2 shot group - 7/8"

22.0g
2420 fps
2358 fps
2 shot group 1/2"

22.5g
2437 fps
2471 fps
2 shot group 3/8"

As you can see above the velocities were qite good in everything, my gun seems to like the H4198 the best so far. I wil not go any higher with the 85g, & 90g, I may try slightly higher with the 100g but the last load was so accurate there may not be any need to go any higher. I will do some more testing on the 123g SST and the 95g Vmax and see what they will do.

SpinLite1, thanks again for your great new update with these loads...your package was shipped today, you should get by Friday.

I am loving those tight groups and great velocities...

I also wanted to mention that I installed a CMC trigger module, and i absolutely love how it felt, it is a non adjustable trigger module I think it is 3.5 lbs, very smooth and clean break, I believe it improved my accuracy a little.

I like them a lot also, It will definitely Improve accuracy with a clean single stage pull...they usually average around 3-1/2 lbs.

I received my 95gr 264 lehigh bullets today. I was at the vet hospital with my dog so I only got rough measurements but I think that mag length is going to be close. Definitely need a 2.30 mag.

Our samples came in at 1.125"-1.126" projectile length... So a long COL mag will definitely help.

Loaded to 2.285" or longer out of a 20" or longer tube you should get 2,800 fps or better...

Will also be trying a new Czech powder D063 to se how it works with this round...

http://www.explosia.cz/en/streliviny/download/reloading_EN.pdf

I'm new to reloading, so a few specifics is what I need assistance with. A lot of general reloading procedures I have started reading up on, and I also have a friend whose a FFL and also gunsmiths to help me get started in learning how to reload.

With that said, I just received my reloading dies for 6.5 PCC today. A question I have is, does the parent case, 5.56, have to be trimmed either before or after the Full-length Sizing die is used? If trimming is needed before using the FL Sizing Die, what is the case OAL need to be trimmed to beforehand? If it needs trimming afterwards, the same question, what does the case OAL need to be afterwards?

Also does this die push spent primers out as well while swaging the primer pocket. If it does push out spent primers, can it push out spent primers that have a military crimp?

I will defer on trimming. I would probably trim before, size, then give a final cut if needed. I don't like upsizing too much extra neck if I can avoid.

The die will have a decapping pin, which can push out the primer even with a crimp. However, you will need to separate swage or ream the crimp. Alternatively, you can use commercial or 2x brass.

Yes, do the case trimming first (trim to 1.655") then do the case lubing then the sizing operation...

The sizing die will normally be able to de-prime/de-cap even once fired military cases...

Finally got out to test a few loads:

First up,
Bottom Left - 3x 100gr Nosler BT/ 24.1gr H322 - 2435 avg fps
Bottom Right - 3x 100gr Nosler BT/ 25gr X-Terminator - 2458 avg fps
Middle - 3x Barnes 100gr TTSX/ 24.2gr H335 - 2343 avg fps
Top Left - 95gr Controlled Chaos/ 21.8gr H322 - 2278 avg
Top Right - 95gr Controlled Chaos/ 22.1gr H322 - 2281 avg


Second target,
Bottom Left - 95gr Controlled Chaos/ 22.4gr H322 - 2334 avg
Bottom Right - 95gr Controlled Chaos/ 23.5gr X-terminator - 2414 avg
Middle - 95gr Controlled Chaos/23.8gr X-terminator - 2440 avg
Top Left - 95gr Controlled Chaos/ 24.1gr X-terminator - 2470 avg


The Barnes were excellent, one of the best groups my rifle has shot thus far.
The Controlled Chaos on the other hand, i'm pretty disappointed in. With the exception of the last string of X-terminator, they grouped horribly.
I'll try a few with H335 to see if that improves the groupings any.

The 100gr. Barnes TTSX were very tight, excellent groups, great work.

The 95gr. Lehigh CC will (hopefully) get better with the ball powders like H335, I was
concerned that they may not group as good as conventional designed projo's due to
the Poly bore...

The accuracy may also Improve as you Increase your loads/velocity as well...

Thanks for the update.

After I made this post I realized that I was incorrect on the information I posted on the last string of  loads, the group I listed as the 95g Vmax were in fact the 123g SST loads and I did not shoot the 95g vmax rounds yet. so those velocities were actually not bad for that round, I still have a little room to go up and did not see any pressure signs at those loads. Maybe I will be able to get over 2500fps with the tips on. So far my rifle has done well with the 95g vmax and other powders, so I am optimistic that it will do well with this powder, I would like to get close to 2950fps with this round and the H4198 powder but we will see.

Thanks for that correction, at 2,500 fps. or better with 123gr. SST that's not bad at all !

Here is the latest catalog (PDF) for the new Czech powders being Imported stateside...They seem to be pretty good powders for
Increased velocities for most pistol, rifle, and shotgun loads...


http://www.stillwoodammo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/LOAD-DATA-2014.pdf


For our uses (rifle) looks like: D063-01, D073-01, D073-04, D073-05 powders have the most merit...

D063-01/02 is great for you big .300 Blackout fans for use with subsonic loads BTW...


Thanks.

Do you know where they will be available? I'm in to buy a few lbs to play with.

Eta: I am assuming still wood might be a source but they show none in stock or eta I saw.