For the .25-223, let 320pf know you want one when he does his group buy.  For the .25x40, wait until Kurt gets some made (which may be a while from what he posted earlier).

Roger that. PM sent.

Your only other option may be go to Pac-Nor Barrel w/  a .25/.257 TCU chambering, they list it for there wildcat chambering.
This would be good as you would not have the extra expense and time to buy or rent a new chamber reamer. The 25 TCU(223 Parent Case)
does give you the extra benefit of Increased power/velocity w/ the added powder capacity.

Your other option would be to go to someone with a reamer(s) you need and buy a .257 barrel blank.
Then have a smith do the chambering,contouring and fitting etc.

The turnaround time for the Pac-Nor is around 6 weeks.

Hope this helps,

There seems to be some interest in this wild cat. First, a brief history about how this cartridge came about.  I was motivated by the 25x40mm wildcat done by Kurt a.k.a 762.40mm.  I really liked the concept of this cartridge but having built several 300-221 FIreball uppers, I did not want to another wildcat that required a lot of brass trimming and fire forming. So after talking with Kurt and getting some good advice, I came up with this one. (Thanks 7.62x40mm "Kurt" for your help). If you are interested in reading about this you can find it here (It is quit a long read):

25x40mm

The cartridge is based on the 223 REM/5.56x45.  The brass for this cartridge is made by simply running 223 REM brass through the 25-223 re-sizer die and trimming the case back to 1.700 inches. Bullets are seated to an overall case length of 2.26 inches. This wildcat cartridge uses a standard AR15 bolt and carrier group and standard AR15 magazines.

Here is what it looks like



A 223REM on each end for comparison.  From left to right, 100g Sierra MatchKing, 100g Speer SPBT (similar in overall shape to a 100g Sierra GameKing), 75g Horn V-Max, 85g Nosler Ballistic Tip (Ihave not tried these yet), 100g Sierra ProHunters (similar in overall shape to a 100g Speer HCSP). The case capacity/volume is 31g of water.  

Velocity potential
To date... with a 16 in 1:10 twist barrel, I have obtained the following results:

75g Horn. VMax=3020 fps
87g Speer HCSP and TNT=2836fps
100g Speer SPBT=2600fps

I do not have any data for longer barrels yet. The load models suggest about a 20fps velocity gain for each additional inch of barrel.  

Accuracy potential:  See Graycard's original post above. I have not yet shot this round for accuracy but I have chronographed about 300 rounds through my barrel. Typically during a 30-round chrono-session all but 4 or 5 rounds will print into a 1.25 in. hole. So between my experience and what Graycard has posted, I think that this cartridge has a pretty good accuracy potential.  

Dies
The Dies are readily available. The last time I checked you can get dies for the 25-223 from CH4D for about $80-85 for a two die set.  Typically they have two to six sets in stock at any given time. When they are out of stock, they make a run of six and it generally takes three to six months.

25-223 Dies

So far there are 4-5 people interested in obtaining a 25-223 barrel. I you are interested in getting in on this barrel run PM me and I will contact you with the specifics.

320pf

Looks like the 257 TCU, brother of the 6mm, 6.5 and 7mm TCU

What powders are you using to get those velocities stated?  Same powder for all bullet weights or different powders?  Are you running a faster burning powder than typically used in a .223?

Just curious,

Indy

I am using slightly faster powders than used in the 223EM:
IMR4198
Reloader 7
AA1680
IMR4227

For the 75g Horn, V-Max the best velocities are with IMR4227 and AA1680
For the 87g Speers the best velocities are with IMR4198 and IMR4227 followed closely by AA1680.
For the 100g Speers the best velocities are with AA1680 and IMR4198.  

With the 100g bullets, Reloader-7 might also work well. I have not had the chance to push this powder yet.

320pf

No 40 degree shoulder or blown out cases.

320pf

I want one.  I would like the barrel to be a twenty inch pencil.

ETA:  What are the advantages of the 25-223 over the other 25 cal wildcats?  Is it just simpler to form the case?  If that's it, I'm sold.

Well, If we are talking other wildcats like the .25/.257 TCU and the 25X40mm then the answer is basically Yes.
No fireforming (25 TCU), and less case trimming (25X40mm)...the 25-223 would use the original shoulder angle
of the 223 parent case.

Although, the case necks still need to trimmed so the rounds will stack properly and not rubb against
the Inner Mag ribbs If you are using unmodified AR-15/M16 Mags,

MY 2 Cents...buy it may be worth less

You are trimming the case so the neck does not protrude past the point where the ogive of the bullet is starting to taper down to the tip.  With un-modified magazines there are no problems.  The case neck does ride on the rib but it does not effect the way the rounds stack.  In all of my playing I have not had any mag. problems using USGI or pmags.

I agree on the powders used by 320pf and have also had good results with H322 and N133.  Most of my loads have reach a point of about 2450 fps but the accuracy has been so good I may not bother trying to get those last little bits of velocity.

Not having tried a lot of the offerings out there I can not make great statments of this round over another but I can say it has been fun.  Once I get this one exactly the way I want and set for EDC there is no telling what I may try next.

I agree, If your using longer high bc bullets you have to trim the case neck down past the apex point of the bullet ogive.

I had to do this for my 6.5mm AR-TCU Wildcat, although its less prominent with the .25 cal round...with the un-modded mags...


Peace,

72 hour bump.

Seriously, any updates or new pics?

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Bump to this going.

Anything new?

Graycard,
Looks like your having fun with the wildcat. Great little round! Keep us posted.
Gos

Right now I am to the easy part.  I'm shooting it and enjoying it.
I finally replaced the trigger unit with a Wilson match unit which makes it a whole lot easier to shoot.  The load I'm hanging with at the moment is 24.2 grains of H322 with a 100 gr. bullet (testing between Sierra and Speer.)  I'm using Winchester small rifle primers and formed Lake City brass.  

This load gave me an avg. of 2470 fps yesterday at my range and groups at (or under) 1/2" were not uncommon.  
There is very little more I could ask out of a 16" carbine.  I spent two evenings sizing and trimming brass to come up with about 500 cases so the hard part is over.  I have a couple of hundred rounds loaded up to play with.  Also want to gather a bunch of telephone books, soak them and try a few expansion test on the bullets.  Ballistic gel would be better but I'm too tight to spend the money on something just to shoot it. So far all of my testing has been at 100 yards.  This month I plan to spend the time clearing a lane out to reach up to 500 yards and I'll do some testing at longer ranges.  But I consider this a 150 yard rifle.

I have my "walk-around" rifle and I consider the first project for the Chestnut Mtn. Proving Grounds to be basically complete.  (My wife won't let me call the place "The Compound")

That's the beauty of the AR platform. Lots of ways of tweaking around those little 5.56 from .32 caliber on down to .14.
I ran across an old reamer list just for the 223 and was amazed at all the variations that were available. All sorts of different calibers, COL lengths, shoulder angle, body taper, etc. Were I to do mine over again, I'd worked with the .25 caliber like the TCU series just for the proven reloading data. I burnt lots of powder and time looking for that right mix for the .308-223 round.

Bump to keep this going. Barrels are being worked up for a lucky few right now. Parts are in hand for build. Expect pics and test information in coming weeks/months...hopefully

How many barrels are being made?  I might be interested if there are some left.

Me?  I'm just loading up rounds and having fun.  This has turned out to be a really fun rifle to play with.  The boy (TP555) that did the barrel knew what he was doing and MOA is just a boring expectation.  Adding the Wilson trigger was the last needed item to finish it off.  Can't wait till there are a ferw more out there.  A few more people working on loads always help.

Send an IM to 320pf.

I am extremely excited by this round.  Has anyone loaded up some 80 gr TTSX yet?

I've stayed with the 100 gr. loads but I think 320PF may have played with the lighter bullets.  I had a set purpose in mind when I built the rifle and the100 gr. load was a better choice for me.  It gave me a 33% increase in mass over the 75 gr. .223 loads I was using.
I like to have a set goal in mind when working on a rifle and to date this wildcat has done what I wanted.  Now if a helpful whitetail will work with me this fall I can really test it out.  I wanted a light walk-around rifle for use up to 150 yards.  Since I lived in the foothills I seldom get a longer shot unless I'm shooting from ridge top to ridge top.  Within my slef-imposed range it will handle any wildlife on the property short of blackbear.  With the 16" barrel I can set it on my 4-wheeler without having it hang over the sides and it is easy to get it in and out of my truck.  Basically I wanted a modern rifle to fill the same purpose as the leveraction carbine but with better accuracy.

I hear you.

I am getting one of the barrels, and was thinking that with the 80 gr TTSX around 2900 fps out of a 20" would make a great deer load out to even 300...if you are familiar with the Barnes bullets you would know that they offer penetration on par with much heavier conventional bullets.

Right now the hot 6.8 hunting load is a 85gr TTSX at around 3000 fps, and folks on arf are taking everything from deer to enormous hogs with great success.

Last Email I got from 320pf said he had received the barrels and was sending them off to the machine shop on the 11th.

From the sound of his e-mails he was only going to order barrels that people paid for, so I doubt there are extras.  Although I guess it's possible someone could back out before they are finished.

I'm eagerly awaiting mine.  I'm going to pull the barrel of a mutt build and put the .25-223 on it rather then build a whole new rifle.  Still need to get off my butt and order the dies for it.

I was going to try the 80 gr Barnes TTSX and the 90 gr Speer boat tail JHP in my first batches of loads.  

I'm also wondering if some of the 86 gr flat points made for the .25-20 would feed in the AR?

Any new info on this?  I tried to IM 320pf and got an error message that his inbox was full.  Would like to keep involved and get a barrel some time.

I flushed my messages so the IM's should work now.

The barrels are getting parkerized.... they should be back next week.

320pf

Did you have any extras made or only enough for those that prepaid?

I talked with 320pf for quite a while the other day.  Thanks!  I was impressed with our open discussion of the potential capabilities of this chambering.

This round is really interesting me at this point.  I have been seriously looking into getting a 6x45 and do have a 6.8 spc barrel on order.  If however, one can get anywhere close to 3000 out of the 25-223 with a 80 grain bullet, the $$ of being able to use the cheap 556 brass and get lots of practice is a real incentive.

Thanks again for all the good info.  Looking forward to hearing more, especially the velocities out of the 20" barrels.

I am setting up  another barrel run.  IM me or email me if you are interested in getting in the the next run.

320pf

You got my order on this run already, but I do have a couple of buddies I've been talking to about the build and they said they were interested in a barrel as well.  I'll pass your contact info to them.

But I do have another question.  Since there seem to be a few of us getting in to the .25-223 and there is very sparse data on the web about it (most that I can find is on other forums by some guy that goes by 320pf).  I assume that we'll be sharing some data and posting our results of various handloads.  Are we going to do that in this thread or is there a better place to discuss our handloads?

What muzzle thread are the barrels coming with or is it whatever you ask for?

Has a mid length gas system been tried or have they all been carbine?  If so, was the mid-length more or less load sensitive?

So far all of the barrels that have been threaded are threaded 5/8-24 TPI.  A custom thread is possible.

There is a mid-length (18") and rifle length (20") barrels is the batch that is due to arrive next week.So we do not have nay experience with a mid-length barrel/gas set up yet.

320pf

5/8-24 is what I had in mind so that will work.  Is there a minimum diameter that is recommended?  I like lightweight barrels.

Sent IM
18 inch with rifle length gas system?

sound like a good Deer / hog rig

I sent you an IM

320pf

Barrel is on the way, got the rest of the parts for the build ready, dies are on the way, going to order some bullets and powder through our club, but the way work is going I'm not going to get to load for this thing and shoot it until Mid October.

Good news is I have a 4 day weekend for Columbus day.  Sounds like a good way to break it in.

My barrel is ordered as well.  I don't have all the other parts for the build, however, so it may be a while before I get mine put together.  I don't have the dies ordered either so thanks for the reminder, I'll have to get them on the way soon.  

I went with a lightweight build.  From what 320pf had to say it may be the lightest barrel done so far so I'll be sure to post accuracy results for comparison.  Hopefully I can get it together and tested before the end of the year.

Sounds like we're all in the same boat. My barrels on the way, and I have all the rest of the parts (and I mean everything, including optics, CH4D dies, and components) ready to go. However, I'm in the middle of a protracted move, so it will likely be a month or more before I get things up and running.

Let's not let this thread fade away though. Even though it might be a bit, I can't wait to start testing and sharing data on this promising cartridge.

Can't wait to see some data on this cartridge.  I'm getting rid of my .308 to go to the regular AR platform for less weight.  Trying to decide between .25-225, .300/221, and 7.62x40 (if barrels ever get made again) for hunting.  Hope this cartridge works out well for deer and hog slaying.

My plan is to take a deer with it this year.  Luckily we have a very long season.  Gun season starts Mid November and runs until 1 January 2011, then the late antlerless season kick in until March 26th.  That's 4 1/2 months of gun season.  I better see something during that time frame.

Well here is what the barrels look like.  The lengths are 16, 18, and 20 inches. There are five formed cases on the bottom and five loaded rounds at maximum case length (~2.258").



Nothing fancy, but they should shoot well if they are anything like the first batch that Graycard and I put together.


Graycard's handiwork (see top of this thread)

320pf

Hello 320pf...quick question what is the gasport diameter of the barrels? I'm having short stroking issues w/ my 6X45 AR barrel, maybe the gasport is to small....Thanks.

The gas ports are most likely too small.

I start them out a 0.0625" and open the port up until the gun cycles. So far the people that are getting to barrels are OK with working out the correct port diameter on their own...

The fun of working up a wildcat.

320pf

You guys are going to have some fun.  Keep us updated on loads.  Even thought I have a good bit of luck with my loads I'm always willing to try something new.
So far the only game to come in front of my rifle was a Copperhead.  This young man came by this past Sat. but I decided I didn't want to make him mad by shooting him with a .25.  But I will try it out on deer this year.

I'm guessing that's mine on the left

Hopefully mailman will deliver a package today!!!

Is the Wombat getting the 18" barrel?  or is that for someone else?




Dang,  I just thought of something else I need to buy.

I don't have any .25 cleaning brushes or jags.  This is my first quarterbore.

Yep. The 18" is coming my way. A pic of the complete build will be posted when I'm done.

Interesting that the rifle-length barrel has the port at the mid-length position.

Oh, and by the way, thanks to 320pf for putting this all together. My hat is off to you, sir.

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I talked with 320pf about that on the phone,  I think his plan was to try both locations and see which worked better.  

And I'm not sure he even had the holes drilled yet, they look just like dimples to me.  Then again I don't see a pin on the barrel so we may be looking at the under side of it.

Hello fellas, well I have a 6mm-223(6X45) Ar Barrel w/ a Rifle length gasport and I'm getting short stroking and I've narrowed it down the problem to the gasport hole being to small (Its about .086-.088").

So, Rifle length is fine (better velocity and less stress on the BCG)...may have to go with a larger gasport...

Mid-Length is also very good and less prone to short stroking and good comprimise....


Well, I hope this helps...My two cents, but it may be worth less

My 6mm TCU has the same system but I had to run a .095 to get it running right.