User Panel
[#1]
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[#2]
In on the other thread, in on this for the results.
Bill is good people. |
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[#3]
I may have missed it, but why post this issue here first? Why not contact the manufacturer first, then post?
I mean...its Geissele for crying out loud. Arguably, the finest ar parts manufacturer out there. My intent is not to berate the OP. Just strikes me as odd to come here and say "look at this" without giving Geissele an opportunity to address it. YMMV. |
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[#4]
Quoted:
I may have missed it, but why post this issue here first? Why not contact the manufacturer first, then post? I mean...its Geissele for crying out loud. Arguably, the finest ar parts manufacturer out there. My intent is not to berate the OP. Just strikes me as odd to come here and say "look at this" without giving Geissele an opportunity to address it. YMMV. View Quote |
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[#5]
Quoted:
@sagmill When the package is on its way back to me seal it with the shipping label and or whatever you deem necessary to ensure everyone is satisfied that the package remains untampered with. I will take detailed pictures of the box for everyone to see and analyze. I don't want anyone to make false claims that I did something to cause it to fail. I will open it and assemble and retest on my property under camera. It will be a few weeks, so sorry to keep people waiting. I have a 10 day old infant in the house and start up work again soon. Upon re-test it will be re-assembled and the DI Optical RV2 will be the optic being tested and the drops will be typical as per my prior videos. If it holds up, what can i say but bad luck I guess and I will recant my negative opinion of the product here and elsewhere. I will state again that I followed the directions upon installation, utilizing a torque wrench as specified in the instructions. There are many things I like about the Mk4 so I am glad you will be helping me solve this problem. When i got home from my previous range session I re-tourqued to 6-7 ft lbs using a beam torque wrench and applied blue loc tite. You will see the front bolt remains intact and has the charicteristic white ceramic ring left by Rockset. That bolt has not budged and remains in place. The other bolt will have evidence of rock set and loc-tite residue as I tried to correct the problem with threadlocker. I appreciate the confidence in your product you have shown by shooting the video. Until then everyone! View Quote If there is no issue with your test methods do I have your permission to test further with Geissele methods? |
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[#7]
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[#8]
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[#11]
Never mind...last time I saw the clones in person the barrel nuts were black aluminum. OP appears to have the correct Geissele product.
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[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If there is no issue with your test methods do I have your permission to test further with Geissele methods? Remember that ocular and erector tube rolling across the floor...........frakken LOL......... "So, your barrel bent and your upper receiver cracked when we using your rifle for a bat at our league softball game, but as you can see our rail held up fine........." |
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[#14]
Quoted:
Slap that Youtube Biatch! Remember that ocular and erector tube rolling across the floor...........frakken LOL......... "So, your barrel bent and your upper receiver cracked when we using your rifle for a bat at our league softball game, but as you can see our rail held up fine........." View Quote One could only hope, right? . |
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[#15]
Quoted:
OP might get lucky. After they are done throwing all over the shipping / receiving dock and dragging it down the driveway - maybe Mr. G will replace it with one of those rarely seen in the wild G lowers as a replacement. One could only hope, right? . View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Slap that Youtube Biatch! Remember that ocular and erector tube rolling across the floor...........frakken LOL......... "So, your barrel bent and your upper receiver cracked when we using your rifle for a bat at our league softball game, but as you can see our rail held up fine........." One could only hope, right? . Maybe Mr. Youtube gets a box filled with broken rifle parts and note which says "Retested per Geissele specifications, no rail failure." and a jar of Dillo Dust........... |
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[#16]
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[#17]
Quoted:
Sure. Can you post how you drop tested the rifle and can you send your optic with it too? That way we will recreate your testing protocol exactly. If there is no issue with your test methods do I have your permission to test further with Geissele methods? View Quote I am testing the Atibal MROC and RV2 on loan from DI optical at the moment. It was during this last session that the screw loosened again. I need to speak to someone at Atibal and DIO before I send it over. They might agree, they might not. No promises on that end. Barring that, take it out of the box and abuse it outside. Concrete is not necessary as my sample loosened several times on "soft grass" which was actually hard packed soil. Ensure it holds together to your satisfaction. If it all holds up send it back and I will record as I will abuse it as I have done the previous times. I would like to publish the videos simultaneously. Will you agree to releasing them on the same day? .......................... As for the Geiselle methods: so long as I get a functional rifle and weapon light back, go ahead... On one condition. If i get it back, open the box, and manage to get that screw loose again, you must agree to let me send it to a Hill Country Engineering firm for evaluation and T&E and a published opinion of your product. Upon rendering their opinion i will eat delicious steak. I hope they agree to check it out. I will contact them tomorrow to make arrangements. I hope they agree. No hard feelings. I like your rail, its pretty sweet. Except the screw. Sit tight. I have the latest video showing the screw loosening on the cutting room floor. ARFCOM ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED? *edit* No video tonight. My kids broke my keyboard. Will try tomorrow. Yes i am on my phone. |
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[#19]
Quoted:
@sagmill I am testing the Atibal MROC and RV2 on loan from DI optical at the moment. It was during this last session that the screw loosened again. I need to speak to someone at Atibal and DIO before I send it over. They might agree, they might not. No promises on that end. Barring that, take it out of the box and abuse it outside. Concrete is not necessary as my sample loosened several times on "soft grass" which was actually hard packed soil. Ensure it holds together to your satisfaction. If it all holds up send it back and I will record as I will abuse it as I have done the previous times. I would like to publish the videos simultaneously. Will you agree to releasing them on the same day? .......................... As for the Geiselle methods: so long as I get a functional rifle and weapon light back, go ahead... On one condition. If i get it back, open the box, and manage to get that screw loose again, you must agree to let me send it to a Hill Country Engineering firm for evaluation and T&E and a published opinion of your product. Upon rendering their opinion i will eat delicious steak. I hope they agree to check it out. I will contact them tomorrow to make arrangements. I hope they agree. No hard feelings. I like your rail, its pretty sweet. Except the screw. Sit tight. I have the latest video showing the screw loosening on the cutting room floor. ARFCOM ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED? *edit* No video tonight. My kids broke my keyboard. Will try tomorrow. Yes i am on my phone. View Quote What you do with the gun parts we send back is your business. When we get done using the Geissele methods no lab is going to have much to say other than "its broke bro" Now let me put my customer service cap on, If you are dropping onto grass (or hard soil, same-same GI) and the cross bolts loosen I would immediately suspect that the bolts are not tightened properly. Now it all could be on us, maybe we bored your rail wrong and got the barrel nut fit screwed up, I don't know since I have never seen your gun. I don't have a set of instructions in front of me but I know that 8 ft-lbs is max torque (Foot pounds, not inch pounds....if its an inch pound torque wrench the max torque is 96 in-lbs). Remove the cross bolts and make sure the loctite or Rocksett is not preventing the screws from freely screwing into the dog bone nut with only your fingers. If needed clean the threads and put a drop of oil on them. Loosen the small side alignment set screws and align the picatinny receiver/rail. Keep the set screws loose for now. Now make sure the hardened washers are under the bolt heads and make sure there are no burrs that got picked up on the washers or underside of the bolt head that could impede tightening. Put a drop of oil under each bolt head where it contacts the washer. You mention a "beam type" torque wrench. I am envisioning a $2 Harbor Freight type thing. One does not need a torque wrench to install a Geissele rail, just take a long arm L shaped allen key and tighten the bolts with all your might. The springly action of the allen key will prevent the bolt from being over tightened. Only now tighten the small side alignment set screws. We put torque limits into the instructions because some folks have a tendency to go wild on tightening things, think allen key socket with 2 foot long breaker bar type stuff. Now, if you want to use a torque wrench please use one that is calibrated or new and one of reputable make. Most ft-lb torque wrenches will not go down to 8 ft-lbs or 8 will be at the very bottom of the range where there can be inaccuracies. You will most likely have to use an inch-pound torque wrench such as a Snap On QD2R200. Note the max torque of 200 inch-pounds on this guy which is 16 ft-lbs. Torquing to 96 inch-pounds will put you right into the middle of the wrenches torque range. And remember to only hold the torque wrench by the gripping handle to get an accurate reading. But like I suggested above, in our shop we have never used a torque wrench on any Geissele rail bolts (the barrel nut we do torque) other than when we were experimenting with getting a torque value for the instructions. Note that the cross bolts tighten steel to steel, not steel bolts into soft aluminum. It is going to be impossible to strip the threads of the Grade 8 bolts we use. And if the steel dog bone threads get messed up its easy to knock the dog bone out and put a new one in. I designed it that way so that the rail is always fixable, no matter what the installer does. I am able to suggest that oil be used on the threads because of the Geissele design. Long bolts are more secure than short bolts due to unit elongation. If loctite is needed something is screwed up, either the bolts are not being tightened properly or we have something totally wacked that we screwed up at the shop. Either way this circus could have been avoided by a simple phone call into my customer service teammates. WHG |
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[#20]
Quoted:
I can't guarantee what condition your gun will be in once I send it back. Drop testing is by its nature destructive. I have dropped guns and in two drops they have broken to the point of being completely non shootable. What you do with the gun parts we send back is your business. When we get done using the Geissele methods no lab is going to have much to say other than "its broke bro" Now let me put my customer service cap on, If you are dropping onto grass (or hard soil, same-same GI) and the cross bolts loosen I would immediately suspect that the bolts are not tightened properly. Now it all could be on us, maybe we bored your rail wrong and got the barrel nut fit screwed up, I don't know since I have never seen your gun. I don't have a set of instructions in front of me but I know that 8 ft-lbs is max torque (Foot pounds, not inch pounds....if its an inch pound torque wrench the max torque is 96 in-lbs). Remove the cross bolts and make sure the loctite or Rocksett is not preventing the screws from freely screwing into the dog bone nut with only your fingers. If needed clean the threads and put a drop of oil on them. Loosen the small side alignment set screws and align the picatinny receiver/rail. Keep the set screws loose for now. Now make sure the hardened washers are under the bolt heads and make sure there are no burrs that got picked up on the washers or underside of the bolt head that could impede tightening. Put a drop of oil under each bolt head where it contacts the washer. You mention a "beam type" torque wrench. I am envisioning a $2 Harbor Freight type thing. One does not need a torque wrench to install a Geissele rail, just take a long arm L shaped allen key and tighten the bolts with all your might. The springly action of the allen key will prevent the bolt from being over tightened. Only now tighten the small side alignment set screws. We put torque limits into the instructions because some folks have a tendency to go wild on tightening things, think allen key socket with 2 foot long breaker bar type stuff. Now, if you want to use a torque wrench please use one that is calibrated or new and one of reputable make. Most ft-lb torque wrenches will not go down to 8 ft-lbs or 8 will be at the very bottom of the range where there can be inaccuracies. You will most likely have to use an inch-pound torque wrench such as a Snap On QD2R200. Note the max torque of 200 inch-pounds on this guy which is 16 ft-lbs. Torquing to 96 inch-pounds will put you right into the middle of the wrenches torque range. And remember to only hold the torque wrench by the gripping handle to get an accurate reading. But like I suggested above, in our shop we have never used a torque wrench on any Geissele rail bolts (the barrel nut we do torque) other than when we were experimenting with getting a torque value for the instructions. Note that the cross bolts tighten steel to steel, not steel bolts into soft aluminum. It is going to be impossible to strip the threads of the Grade 8 bolts we use. And if the steel dog bone threads get messed up its easy to knock the dog bone out and put a new one in. I designed it that way so that the rail is always fixable, no matter what the installer does. I am able to suggest that oil be used on the threads because of the Geissele design. Long bolts are more secure than short bolts due to unit elongation. If loctite is needed something is screwed up, either the bolts are not being tightened properly or we have something totally wacked that we screwed up at the shop. Either way this circus could have been avoided by a simple phone call into my customer service teammates. WHG View Quote Lets back up a bit. Take a look at the rifle, no destructive testing, but feel free to toss it around a bit and ensure everything is to spec. I wont do anything crazy once its back. Yes it is getting a bit out of hand, so I apologize on my part. I will send you a private youtube link so you can see what happened at my most recent outing and try and recreate the circumstances in the shop. Examine / fix the rifle and i will finish up with it and as a act of mutual good faith the upper receiver will be donated to @RustedAce for use in a future cola warrior prize pool. I want to ensure that the team at Geiselle and ARF know that i am a man of integrity, and nothing will make me happier than having this rail go to a deserving shooter at Cola Warrior. |
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[#22]
Quoted:
I don't have a set of instructions in front of me but I know that 8 ft-lbs is max torque (Foot pounds, not inch pounds....if its an inch pound torque wrench the max torque is 96 in-lbs). Now, if you want to use a torque wrench please use one that is calibrated or new and one of reputable make. Most ft-lb torque wrenches will not go down to 8 ft-lbs or 8 will be at the very bottom of the range where there can be inaccuracies. WHG View Quote Off to tighten the screws on my rails!! |
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[#23]
Quoted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVow6hbvKjo @knife_sniper Bill grabbed a rifle with a 15" MK4 rail and had a little fun with it. As you can see, no screws backed out or came loose. View Quote |
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[#24]
@sagmill
Do you have any data on the difference between the old set screw anti-rotation tabs vs the new ones? In my opinion, the old style would prevent any rotation of the rail at all where the new style will still allow the rail to shift a small amount. If the rail attachment screws are sufficient and the anti-rotation tabs are redundant, why have the anti-rotation tabs at all? |
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[#25]
Quoted:
I can't guarantee what condition your gun will be in once I send it back. Drop testing is by its nature destructive. I have dropped guns and in two drops they have broken to the point of being completely non shootable. What you do with the gun parts we send back is your business. When we get done using the Geissele methods no lab is going to have much to say other than "its broke bro" Now let me put my customer service cap on, If you are dropping onto grass (or hard soil, same-same GI) and the cross bolts loosen I would immediately suspect that the bolts are not tightened properly. Now it all could be on us, maybe we bored your rail wrong and got the barrel nut fit screwed up, I don't know since I have never seen your gun. I don't have a set of instructions in front of me but I know that 8 ft-lbs is max torque (Foot pounds, not inch pounds....if its an inch pound torque wrench the max torque is 96 in-lbs). Remove the cross bolts and make sure the loctite or Rocksett is not preventing the screws from freely screwing into the dog bone nut with only your fingers. If needed clean the threads and put a drop of oil on them. Loosen the small side alignment set screws and align the picatinny receiver/rail. Keep the set screws loose for now. Now make sure the hardened washers are under the bolt heads and make sure there are no burrs that got picked up on the washers or underside of the bolt head that could impede tightening. Put a drop of oil under each bolt head where it contacts the washer. You mention a "beam type" torque wrench. I am envisioning a $2 Harbor Freight type thing. One does not need a torque wrench to install a Geissele rail, just take a long arm L shaped allen key and tighten the bolts with all your might. The springly action of the allen key will prevent the bolt from being over tightened. Only now tighten the small side alignment set screws. We put torque limits into the instructions because some folks have a tendency to go wild on tightening things, think allen key socket with 2 foot long breaker bar type stuff. Now, if you want to use a torque wrench please use one that is calibrated or new and one of reputable make. Most ft-lb torque wrenches will not go down to 8 ft-lbs or 8 will be at the very bottom of the range where there can be inaccuracies. You will most likely have to use an inch-pound torque wrench such as a Snap On QD2R200. Note the max torque of 200 inch-pounds on this guy which is 16 ft-lbs. Torquing to 96 inch-pounds will put you right into the middle of the wrenches torque range. And remember to only hold the torque wrench by the gripping handle to get an accurate reading. But like I suggested above, in our shop we have never used a torque wrench on any Geissele rail bolts (the barrel nut we do torque) other than when we were experimenting with getting a torque value for the instructions. Note that the cross bolts tighten steel to steel, not steel bolts into soft aluminum. It is going to be impossible to strip the threads of the Grade 8 bolts we use. And if the steel dog bone threads get messed up its easy to knock the dog bone out and put a new one in. I designed it that way so that the rail is always fixable, no matter what the installer does. I am able to suggest that oil be used on the threads because of the Geissele design. Long bolts are more secure than short bolts due to unit elongation. If loctite is needed something is screwed up, either the bolts are not being tightened properly or we have something totally wacked that we screwed up at the shop. Either way this circus could have been avoided by a simple phone call into my customer service teammates. WHG View Quote |
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[#26]
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[#27]
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[#28]
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[#29]
The OP and Manufacturer have some issues to discuss. A "one of" or at a minimum a "rare occurrence" of this issue by a Gun related web page leads me to be even more questioning of motive for posting it here. Should have gone to manufacturer first.
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[#30]
As usual, Bill and his team have delivered. That video was amazing.
Now Bill send some of your reps down to Texas on the 8th so we can quality test THEM as well |
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[#31]
I'd love to see how OP nutnfancied the rail to get it to come apart.
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[#32]
Quoted:
I'd love to see how OP nutnfancied the rail to get it to come apart. View Quote I'd like to close-up pic of the dog-bone if possible. |
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[#33]
Quoted:
Hi Bill mind if i make a phone call to the shop today? I want to make sure we talk so were not getting things lost in translation due to the nature of ARFCOM. Lets back up a bit. Take a look at the rifle, no destructive testing, but feel free to toss it around a bit and ensure everything is to spec. I wont do anything crazy once its back. Yes it is getting a bit out of hand, so I apologize on my part. I will send you a private youtube link so you can see what happened at my most recent outing and try and recreate the circumstances in the shop. Examine / fix the rifle and i will finish up with it and as a act of mutual good faith the upper receiver will be donated to @RustedAce for use in a future cola warrior prize pool. I want to ensure that the team at Geiselle and ARF know that i am a man of integrity, and nothing will make me happier than having this rail go to a deserving shooter at Cola Warrior. View Quote No worries we won't put your gun through the ringer but maybe Ill build one up just like yours and take it to the Tower of Power for some fun! Just call into Charlie this week and we will get everything fixed up. |
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[#34]
Quoted:
No one at the shop today my friend but I am home with a sick kiddo. No worries we won't put your gun through the ringer but maybe Ill build one up just like yours and take it to the Tower of Power for some fun! Just call into Charlie this week and we will get everything fixed up. View Quote Again i want to apologize for the brinkmanship, and Bill and i will sort it out. I should have went to Bill first. Point taken. To those who think im here for clicks. I have been here a long time. I did not crosslink into my blog. That's typically something you need to do to drive clicks. Youtube is something i dabble with. The blog is not my job. This is a extension of a hobby I am very passionate about. The blog receives roughly 1 million views a year. Most, but not all, of the gear I review is self purchased. Any gear I review has a disclaimer of where it came from and what my relationship is with said company. That said, you can call me a dumbass who doesn't know how to install a rail, a dumbass who doesnt know how to use a torque wrench, or a hex key, etc. A dumbass who never called customer service first. Thats all fine. However, i would appreciate it if I was not accused of sabatoging the rail for "clicks". I would never sabatoge a product, never ever. I have said my piece, and that's all I can do. I will share my videos privately with Bill and crew, and update everyone when i get it back with the results on a new thread. I will shut down the blog page the gentleman hotlinked so people will see that I have no gain from this post on ARF. Mods feel free to lock the thread and I will be back when I get the product back for evaluation. I will post results in a new thread without commentary and with no blog discussion. just right here. Upper will still head out to Rusted for donation to CW when all is said and done. |
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[#35]
Quoted:
That's pretty good Bill and crew. It appears no one else is having this problem but me. For reference, here are my impacts. This was a few weeks ago and the same screw backed out two turns on this trip. The same happened today but I caught it at one rotation. Geiselle Rail Thrashing with DIO View Quote Could you post a longer, non-edited version of your testing that would perhaps show that area of the rifle throughout your testing? |
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[#36]
Quoted:
On one condition. If i get it back, open the box, and manage to get that screw loose again, you must agree to let me send it to a Hill Country Engineering firm for evaluation and T&E and a published opinion of your product. Upon rendering their opinion i will eat delicious steak. I hope they agree to check it out. I will contact them tomorrow to make arrangements. I hope they agree. No hard feelings. I like your rail, its pretty sweet. Except the screw. Sit tight. I have the latest video showing the screw loosening on the cutting room floor. ARFCOM ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED? *edit* No video tonight. My kids broke my keyboard. Will try tomorrow. Yes i am on my phone. View Quote |
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[#37]
Quoted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVow6hbvKjo @knife_sniper Bill grabbed a rifle with a 15" MK4 rail and had a little fun with it. As you can see, no screws backed out or came loose. View Quote |
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[#38]
Talked with Charlie, they are interested in seeing whats going on. Very nice on the phone, no hard feelings between us.
I told Charlie that all video i send will be private for their viewing to recreate the situation. I have a new video for them to evaluate. I wont be posting more updates until its back in Texas. Laters! |
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[#39]
K_S is standup feller. You folks suggesting otherwise without evidence are bearing false witness, which IIRC is a 9th Commandment violation. Knock that shit off.
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[#40]
Quoted:
Talked with Charlie, they are interested in seeing whats going on. Very nice on the phone, no hard feelings between us. I told Charlie that all video i send will be private for their viewing to recreate the situation. I have a new video for them to evaluate. I wont be posting more updates until its back in Texas. Laters! View Quote |
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[#41]
Quoted:
K_S is standup feller. You folks suggesting otherwise without evidence are bearing false witness, which IIRC is a 9th Commandment violation. Knock that shit off. View Quote |
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[#42]
Quoted:
You should hand deliver it to the next cola warrior, scheduled for 8-10 June in TX.. and compete while you're there! View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
You should hand deliver it to the next cola warrior, scheduled for 8-10 June in TX.. and compete while you're there! I'll wait to hear what you have done for the Black Rifle community. Go ahead. Let us all know. If you have done *anything* to advance our cause, I appreciate it, sincerely, but please illustrate it for us. RustedAce knows i am good for the rifle. He has received some stuff from me privately at no cost prior to this. Some of the people that have received stuff from me aren't even here anymore. Some of the shooters I have met because of this site have passed away over the years. You ever met ERICTHEHUN? I have. Let's see who stays around here longer and who's passion for the black rifle burns longer. but you know me, sure sure. |
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[#44]
View Quote RIP ERICTHEHUN Alrighty Night Gentlemen. You keep yourselves busy here, I will update you all with the gun in the near future. |
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[#46]
I have to say... the video was awesome. And I am not easily impressed.
Bill, ( if I may ) ...Way to stand behind your product, and prove it !! Kudos !! As for the OP's issue... stuff happens. I would also like to see the outcome.... not to prove anyone right or wrong, but because it is the right thing to do. Anyone here that hasn't had a WTH moment , needs to get out more often and turn some more wrenches. I can't help but wonder if the threads stripped. |
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[#47]
Quoted:
I have to say... the video was awesome. And I am not easily impressed. Bill, ( if I may ) ...Way to stand behind your product, and prove it !! Kudos !! As for the OP's issue... stuff happens. I would also like to see the outcome.... not to prove anyone right or wrong, but because it is the right thing to do. Anyone here that hasn't had a WTH moment , needs to get out more often and turn some more wrenches. I can't help but wonder if the threads stripped. View Quote |
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[#48]
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[#49]
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[#50]
Alright G just called and said that the first bolt, not the one that keeps unscrewing was cross threaded.
That is *not* the screw that kept coming loose, but team G says that it was wedged into the front part of the barrel nut and was the source of the problems. I beleive them, and what they said suprised me because i am very meticulous when it comes to things like this (hardware etc). Since the damaged bolt was not moving, I did not suspect it to be the source of the problem. I believe they said they replaced the barrel nut and screw hardware and it will be coming back soon. If team G could explain what they told me to help others avoid this installation problem that would be super. As they said on the phone the tolerances are quite tight and when installing the screws they should drop in before encountering the dogbone. As of yet the upper is not in my posession so Icant retest it at the moment and will be out the door today per team G. Later! |
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