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Link Posted: 8/31/2014 4:07:05 PM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:
Ive heard 1-9 can usually stabilize up to 65gr
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Bullets depend on rotation rate (RPM) for stability.
The RPM needed varies with air density.
The RPM depends on velocity and barrel twist rate.
1:9” twist rates can certainly stabilize 77gr lead core bullets with enough velocity.
Link Posted: 8/31/2014 9:48:58 PM EDT
[#2]
55 grain FMJs and hollow points do just fine in 1:7 barrels.  VERY light, very thin-jacketed (varmint-type) bullets, are built to be VERY fragile, so that, by the time they get to a ground hog 200 or more yards away, they still disintegrate, even at much slower than their normal muzzle velocities.  But since they're light, some people think they can get "hyper" velocities out of them as if they were solid bullets...and they can literally spin apart if you try to drive them at 4,000+ FPS.  Yeah, it can happen.

But with any reasonable bullet OTHER THAN a varmint bullet, a 1:7 twist will work fine.  It WILL emphasize inconsistencies in cheap, bulk bullets - inconsistent bases, inconsistent symmetry, inconsistent CG... all of it will show up more with a faster twist, with earlier yaw and tumble for really poor bullets.  But with good, non-varmint bullets, there is NO reason not to use a 1:7 twist.
Link Posted: 9/1/2014 2:43:04 AM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:

Bullet disintegration is mostly with the very light ~40gr type varmint bullets.  I've seen it myself with hot loaded 40gr bullets.

In the M16A2 development program, when they went from 1:8 to 1:7 twist to try to get their M856 tracer to meet a particular spec, they found that M193 would no longer meet accuracy specs.  Instead of trying something intermediate, that failure was deemed to be acceptable.

Many years ago, Colt changed out a whole bunch of 1:7 rifles (to 1:9) that had been delivered to NYPD which wouldn't perform adequately with their chosen lighter weight duty load.

Yes, very high quality "match" projectiles will do better with excessive stabilization than will lower grade projectiles.

Excessive twist rate exacerbates any flaws or eccentricities in the projectile or other factors.  It also increases downrange BC since the bullet is less able to follow it's trajectory, so very long range ballistics suffers.  The faster you go in twist, the more likely you are to see detrimental effects, which is why high precision shooters tend to shoot the slowest twist that will adequately stabilize their bullets.

There's a lot of discussion in this archive thread which explains some of the intricacies of external ballistics.  Let's just say that the often repeated mantra of "no downside to excessive twist" is not exactly correct.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1578254__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Bullets_accurate_at_600yd_but_not_100yd_.html&page=1

Personally I found 1:7s to be somewhat annoying, where I'd shoot many donut looking groups but could never seem to get bullets in the center of a group, particularly at shorter ranges.  The information in the thread I just linked explains why that happens.  I notice much less of that with 1:8 and 1:9 barrels.  I've been very happy with 1:8s.  That's just my anecdotal experience.

Frankly I really don't know why you'd want to shoot 77gr match loads out of a 7.5 inch barrel.  Then again I don't know why folks want 7.5" barrels in 223/5.56 to begin with.
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So 1:7 doesn't work well with 55gr because it over-spins the round, right?  I've heard that this can actually cause a weak-jacketed 55gr to air-burst, is that real?  

Bullet disintegration is mostly with the very light ~40gr type varmint bullets.  I've seen it myself with hot loaded 40gr bullets.

In the M16A2 development program, when they went from 1:8 to 1:7 twist to try to get their M856 tracer to meet a particular spec, they found that M193 would no longer meet accuracy specs.  Instead of trying something intermediate, that failure was deemed to be acceptable.

Many years ago, Colt changed out a whole bunch of 1:7 rifles (to 1:9) that had been delivered to NYPD which wouldn't perform adequately with their chosen lighter weight duty load.

Yes, very high quality "match" projectiles will do better with excessive stabilization than will lower grade projectiles.

Excessive twist rate exacerbates any flaws or eccentricities in the projectile or other factors.  It also increases downrange BC since the bullet is less able to follow it's trajectory, so very long range ballistics suffers.  The faster you go in twist, the more likely you are to see detrimental effects, which is why high precision shooters tend to shoot the slowest twist that will adequately stabilize their bullets.

There's a lot of discussion in this archive thread which explains some of the intricacies of external ballistics.  Let's just say that the often repeated mantra of "no downside to excessive twist" is not exactly correct.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1578254__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Bullets_accurate_at_600yd_but_not_100yd_.html&page=1

Personally I found 1:7s to be somewhat annoying, where I'd shoot many donut looking groups but could never seem to get bullets in the center of a group, particularly at shorter ranges.  The information in the thread I just linked explains why that happens.  I notice much less of that with 1:8 and 1:9 barrels.  I've been very happy with 1:8s.  That's just my anecdotal experience.

1:7 is bad for 55gr in a carbine length, but it would be ok in a 7.5", at least up to 100m, right?  Because the bullet isn't getting up to such a high velocity, and thus a lower spin rate, right?  What are 69+gr bullets like out of a 7.5" 1:9?

Frankly I really don't know why you'd want to shoot 77gr match loads out of a 7.5 inch barrel.  Then again I don't know why folks want 7.5" barrels in 223/5.56 to begin with.
Very good info, thanks a lot.  

I certainly wouldn't buy 77gr match loads for the SBR, but I'd like to know that if those are the only loads I could get my hands on, I could get some kind of accuracy with them, at least to 150m or so.  But, I do want to be able to shoot the 75gr Hornady Tap loads with reasonable accuracy, because I've heard that those are really good SD loads.  I understand why you wouldn't consider a 7.5" barrel in 5.56, what with all the known shortcomings.  But the two reasons that have convinced me that I have to have one are as follows:  My wife and I handled all kinds of ARs at the gun show, and the short 7.5" was the one she got most excited about.  It was very well balanced for her small frame.  She has a hell of a hard time using my carbine.  The second reason is that they are freakin cool.  The wife and I have spent hours on gunstructor building an SBR.  Take a look at the gunstructor link below, and tell me that you wouldn't want to have one like this in your arsenal if given the weakest excuse to do so.

http://www.ar15.com/gunstruction/?guid=EE389685-A3E9-4D90-BA4F-2593F3D31A67
Link Posted: 9/1/2014 11:09:40 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
I certainly wouldn't buy 77gr match loads for the SBR, but I'd like to know that if those are the only loads I could get my hands on, I could get some kind of accuracy with them, at least to 150m or so.  But, I do want to be able to shoot the 75gr Hornady Tap loads with reasonable accuracy, because I've heard that those are really good SD loads.  I understand why you wouldn't consider a 7.5" barrel in 5.56, what with all the known shortcomings.  But the two reasons that have convinced me that I have to have one are as follows:  My wife and I handled all kinds of ARs at the gun show, and the short 7.5" was the one she got most excited about.  It was very well balanced for her small frame.  She has a hell of a hard time using my carbine.  The second reason is that they are freakin cool.  The wife and I have spent hours on gunstructor building an SBR.  Take a look at the gunstructor link below, and tell me that you wouldn't want to have one like this in your arsenal if given the weakest excuse to do so.

http://www.ar15.com/gunstruction/?guid=EE389685-A3E9-4D90-BA4F-2593F3D31A67
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I understand looking around at cool looking guns at the gun show and playing on gunstruction.  But no, I wouldn't want one of those.

In the real world I would give you a caution with regards to 7.5" barrel ARs, if you haven't actually shot one or been around one, with regards to the monumental muzzle blast.  It's pretty brutal even with doubled up plugs and earmuffs.  Almost like getting a light slap in the face with every shot.

75gr TAP is well regarded as a defense load, if it has sufficient velocity to give you the terminal effects.  Which you won't have with a 7.5" barrel, which is why the ammo FAQ recommends not relying on fragmenting loads with very short barrels.

You can put together a more female-friendly rifle build IMO.  Or if you're going to stay with something in that barrel length range, I'd give some thought to the 300 Blackout cartridge which is much better suited to very short barrel lengths.
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