especially since rocket hub is about as useful as tits on a bull. i invested gambled on pebble peak and nw precision, at least i got my upper from NW. What a shame too, this really puts a damper on other crown funded gun projects



 

A damper?

This experience was a bit embarrassing for me, as I am always skeptical of things and I ended up roped into this scheme against my better judgement. I am glad I did not invest too much, only two lowers from SNA, but losing anything at all due to poor decision making on my part is infuriating. Ultimately, I am more angry with myself than these racketeers, because I chose to give them my money in spite of that nagging voice telling me it was too good to be true.

SNA - I ordered 4 plain.

I think a lot of people jumped in and the water was a lot deeper than they expected. It's not nearly as simple as many think. You can't just go into the business of making lowers from scratch without being well funded and knowing what you are doing. CNC machines are very expensive. (About $200,000 for a decent new machine.) You also need to know how to setup and run the machines properly to put out a good quality product. Unless you have good machines and knowledgable people running them, it will not go well.

What gets the native's feathers ruffled up is when there is poor communication and the supporters don't know if their money was ripped off or if the company tried, but was simply not able to compete in the marketplace. People should react quite differently depending on the circumstances of why they didn't get their product.

The AR community is large and and has people everywhere. We should organize a little better and use the resources we have here to check out these places. If a guy took in a quarter million dollars and his shop consists of a $1,500 Harbor Freight mill, then you know you are in trouble. Any reputable shop should not have a problem letting someone take a quick look to see them in action. At the very least, they should keep everyone posted with honest and up to date information. After all, they are using our money, and should be reporting to us until they fulfill their commitments. With that said, you need to cut these places some slack. Deadlines will be missed, and problems will happen. With good communication most people will be fine with the problems and the time needed to work them out.

So what ever happened to the Pebble Peak guy - He got most people's money and only refunded a few early complainers to keep most other trusting folks from going to law enforcement?  You wonder how people can steal so much so blatantly and live with themselves?

 

I have been critical of SNA as a result of a legitimate complaint with the company's practices. I do know I threatened  to file an FTC complaint, which I later did and freely admit. I do believe I even posted a screen shot of it farther back in the thread.

This all leads me to my question, have you/the site, received a complaint as a result of this thread? It would not surprise me in the least as these companies have gone to great lengths to silence dissenters. I also understand that the whole "doxing" thing is now illegal, and they made special laws when its govt employee. So you guys have to CYA. That said..I am in no way arguing or picking a fight, I am genuinely curious, so don't ban me bro!

Along these lines I will state I have filed formal complaints against both SNA AND Rockethub's practices with both the Nevada's Attorney Generals office and with the Federal Attorney Generals office as BOTH of these enterprises are operating across state lines.  That's NOT a threat, that is an ACTION I am neither ashamed of or scared of as they BOTH appear to be skirting law violations that are prosecutable.  These actions HAVE no bearing at all on this site.  First Amendment covers this.

There is no legal standing to remove the information posted as it is in the public domain. This is a private forum so you may monitor it a you wish. However, does Arfcom really want to be a party involved by moderating public information without any threats associated with it? BTW, attorney representative has asked for screenshots of all correspondence including forum posts. That was already captured. Thanks for making it more difficult for others building a case.

I find it odd the mods would consider public information that is found openly in non-private sites as the business contact information for the individual or company, as "personal" information. Yet we are guests here so we should obey the owner's rules.

Would it be acceptable in the future for members to post where they can find additional contact information for people? For example, telling them there is additional contact info at the website with the whois info for the company web site, at the web site for the state agency that records their business license, etc?

I keep checking the account for my 2-minutes-of-hate.  No updates.  Arturo took the $168,000 and ran.   Online background check sites show him at a new address as well. I won't post it, at request of the forum administrators.
 

Rockhub has shown 0 interest in helping to refund or recover the money; they don't even reply to any emails about PebblePeak.   They've been deleting non-threatening posts on the campaign as well.   They have also been terminating accounts from people complaining.    

My FFL got his 80% lowers from Sierra Nevada Arms

I am still waiting on my ceracoated lower and drill jig...

I just received tracking info from NWCP......Should be anodized lower/upper set from campaign #5, since I have received everything else I ordered from them, already.
I'll post pictures when the box arrives!

Definitely post pictures! I was patiently awaiting parts from them, but then Aero released their M5 308 lower. So now if they ever come in they are probably headed straight to the EE.

Pre-300 SNA Here... 443+ days and still waiting, I'll trip over a box in a few years and be puzzled as to what it is..

Same. Except I doubt they will ever show up.

No 118 here. Every time  he posts I simply post my place in line and still waiting.
He deletes it every time because he doesnt want people to know how few he has actually shipped to his RH funders.

Anodized upper/lower set from NWCP arrived.....and they are beautiful! A unique green color.....

http://photos.imageevent.com/roosport/misc/huge/2014-07-14%2017.17.29.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/roosport/misc/huge/2014-07-14%2017.17.39.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/roosport/misc/huge/2014-07-14%2017.19.06.jpg


So far, I've been very happy with NWCP.....quality has been excellent.

Guido, you seem to have done everything right, unlike your predecessors in the plastic lowers industry.  We knew it was a risk, but the price was low enough to take a risk, and if it helped to launch another 80% manufacturer, then that's bully for the 2nd Amendment.  Crowdfunding is inherently risky for the investor, which we are - though your risk in starting your business from scratch was probably much greater than ours, even if you saw the possibilities.  In these cases, the prices were so low their position on the demand curve was much higher than estimated, particularly following the tragedy @ Sandy Hook.  These start-ups got way in over their heads, particularly b/c they underestimated the cost of aluminum.

Have you considered an all-in-one lower, like the GWACS, or an add-on thumbhole stock, or an 80% lower?

Latest from SNA posted on Rockethub BEFORE he can delete it this time.

Sierra Nevada Arms Project Leader

I wanted to give a 1 year update on what we have accomplished since the Rockethub project ended on June 5, 2013. When the project ended, we were overwhelmed with the amount of orders we received. We took in 8,000+ lower receiver orders on the Rockethub page, our website, and phone sales. I want to let everyone know there are still several month left until all the order are complete (hopefully less than 6 months). I get several calls, e-mails, and messages asking me what is taking so long. I understand the frustration and want to lay out what had to be accomplished before one lower was made. 1. Form the company Sierra Nevada Arms LLC. *The State/City/County licenses and taxes needed to be filed. (BTW, most banks wanted no affiliation with a firearms company and turned us away. There was only one bank in town willing to take our business). 2. Find a building to manufacture in. *Just as the banks, with the great gun scare, no one was willing to help gun manufactures. 3. Convince an insurance company to insure us. *It took almost 12 weeks to find an insurance company to insure us. The great gun scare made this almost impossible. 4. Hire a qualified engineer/machinist. *We found one of the best ones around 5. Purchase and set up CNC machines. *It took several months to purchase and setup the machine. After purchase, all the fixtures had to be handmade (you can’t just go to Wal-Mart to buy the fixtures) 6. Purchase tools for the new machines. *It took 2 months to get the right tools for the job. It takes over 25 tools to make one part. A little manufacturing FYI, it’s about $5 in tool life to make one lower. 7. Purchase aluminum for 8,000+ parts. *The cost of this aside took over 4 months for the aluminum to get in. 8. Make our first 80% lower. *We made our first 80% lower, and then made several more until it was perfect. This takes several weeks/months. 9. Submit our 80% lower to the ATF for approval. *It took over 3 months to get our approval. 10. Start production and shipping. *We initially did not charge for shipping. It is costing us over $20k to ship 8,000+ lowers. 11. Manufacture Jigs. *Our jig is amazing. We perfected it and cut down on material that was not needed. Since we came out with our jigs, several companies have adopted our method. 12. Production includes coatings. *After receiving hundreds of calls and e-mails, we decided to add coating options onto our website. The lowers are made and shipped out in batches. There are several more boring details I’m leaving out. I just wanted to let everyone know what actually went on into making the first lowers. Now that we have an understanding of the process, lowers keep being manufactured and shipped out. I kept an eye out on the other Rockethub 80% lower projects and only a handful will actually deliver on our promise. Most companies have gone out of business, and some only make a few lowers per month. I received a few e-mails asking to post the list of funders so everyone would know where they are on the list. After that I received dozens of calls/e-mails/messages/posts begging me not to post the list anywhere. I respect everyone’s privacy and will not compromise your safety, to satisfy a few impatient people. Because we are a private company, we will not release our “output per day” or any other proprietary information. I frequently post updates on our website, Rockethub, Facebook, and though e-mails. Our 888 number also has updates on it. If I missed you somehow, please write us. Once you receive a tracking number, your order has shipped. There will be no further updates other than that. We hope to be 100% complete with all pre-orders within 6 months. Thank you for your support.

1 day ago

Cliff Notes Version, "I had no idea what I am doing!".   BTW why does it take 'weeks and months' to see if you have screwed up a prototype?  Run one set and measure.  That part is NOT rocket science.  Also why did he need a bank.  I thought that's what us funders did for him?

Anybody else see him fumbling over his 'story' again?

 You think Rockethub was going to pay him in cash?    There's legitimate bitching, and then there's just

Only a year over due for that excuse.
As I'll keep saying to SNA just do what you said you were going to do.

Was hoping you'd do a plastic 80%.    Though I realize there have been issues.    My EP Armory blem sits @ Whiskerz' SOT awaiting milling into a post-sample for destruction testing.    So I'm 0 for 3 in 80%.    Even my super glue didn't work on my Flat Spot lower, but I'm going to try again w/ 2-part epoxy.  

I built an EP so I'm probably on somebody's list, but it did go pretty good quite a bit of fit n finish though.
I have been comptemplating the flat spot with JB weld or something similar as well.

Couple of folks did nice welds, and someone was going to try brazing one together.  I got it almost all together w/ super glue, and then panels started popping off.  JB Weld or any other 2-part epoxy is probably a better choice, due to the various voids that can use filling.  I still have the bottom bit assembled, partially b/c I have an A2 pistol grip superglued on.

I'm low 300s and nothing. A month or so I got a reply to a Facebook post. They said that if I wanted a cerakote I could have it right away. I declined the offer saying it wouldn't match the rest of my build. since then ..... crickets.

No way in hell was I going to send them any more money!

Like the pistol.  May have a complimentary thumbhole stock for you in a bit.  Trying to figger out a bumpfire right now, and then it's just a question of configuration & you have a thumbhole that would help reinforce your lower.

Well, basically, yes - that's the whole point of the crowdfunding model.  That's why, in my previous caveats, I made a particular point about people NOT being consumers - they were investors.  Including myself - Art has $60 of mine which I wrote off a long time ago.

Please note that I am NOT defending any of these guys.  Nor am I connected with Rockethub or any other crowdfunding site.  I started this thread because, at the time, there were a lot of random "Hey, somebody has 80% lowers!" posts, and I thought that by consolidating them and keeping running track of new ones it would be a way of paying back to the Arfcom community.  In retrospect I think I probably contributed to the problem by making it easier for Arfcommers to put up their money, and I regret that. But I and a number of others tried to make it clear that if people wanted 100% certainty, crowdfunding was not for them.  I only wish that the certainty level approached 100% instead of approaching zero like it did.

Not your fault that ARFCOMMERS share a significant portion of our genetic makeup w/ lemmings.    No one has posted up that they invested more than they could afford to lose.  We're just pissed that we got taken for suckers, and ARFCOM has a LONG memory...  Those fellas better not pop up on anyone's radar in the future.

The payoff is: High quality parts, and a very low cost. In addition, NWCP gave a 15% lifetime discount to everyone that funded their first campaign, as a thanks for having faith in them.
I, for one, have plans to fully use that discount, when I am doing my next build.

Robert,

I am planning to be in your area and would like to stop by and see your operation (i just left you a message).  I am a reasonable person and can help with the communication issues that you are having.  People just want answers and a real person to experience your operation.  Bad news does not get better with age so please call me.  You can look me up by order#1398 for $701.25.

Rockethub has closed Pebble Peaks Comments section.

The did give me 4 phone numbers for Art and one for his wife.  If you do street view of the address they provided, Art and his wife are getting out of a newer Tacoma pickup with a for sale sign in front of their house.  I love it!

That's not your fault buddy I read the beginning of this thread you warned them over and over again don't beat yourself up about it too much.

Oh, I'm not about to suck start a shotgun.  It's just the "no good deed..." thing.

Got this email from NWCP today:

Just and FYI- Our Facebook page was hacked and we could not access it, we have notified FB and it has been temporarily disabled until we can fix the issue.

To all Our funders,

Many of you have been very patient with us, even when our communication has not been what it should. We were very good at communicating for a while, but at some point when there was not good news to report it became a bit unpleasant to keep saying we are working on it. Well the truth is we are, continuing to work hard and make parts and test designs and improve existing designs. To be completely transparent and honest, we have had some financial struggles. Some people think we got rich from the RH campaigns, but fact is we did what we said we would do and that was buy machinery, materials and hire help. And since we offered a product at cost, and some below cost not knowing what we know now, the funds received didn't cover the cost to do what we need to. But we completed the first campaign anyway. And have shipped items to funders in most of our campaigns. RH didn't have a way to charge for shipping, so there's another loss. Camp # 1 shipping costs exceeded $7,000. We have struggled with the 308 products, and have found that using billet vs forges have proven to be more difficult then expected. We misspoke and gave a ETA for barrel delivery when in fact they weren't ready.Why am I telling you all this. And why now. We waited because releasing negative information about a company can be very harmful to their future, but we are willing to risk that to help you the funders, the co founders of this company know what's going on. We feel you deserve the truth no matter how hard it is. And being transparent is the only way to do that. Now that being said WE ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE! We will make it through, and press forward. We are still working hard on putting out a QUALITY product you will be happy with. Our jigs we have mastered, and we are going to filter out all the orders from all the campaigns and fill orders with products that we have. We originally weren't going to do this because of the cost of shipping, but we feel you have waited long enough and will ship you partial orders of the items we do have. Dealing with RH orders has also proved difficult due to the limited info we received from them, but we can sort it out. We know this isn't the news you wanted but we wanted you to be informed and be reassured that you WILL RECEIVE your products and we will deliver a QUALITY product. Our dream and goal has not changed, NWCP wants to ensure that your right to bare arms is protected and that you have access to quality affordable parts.

Thanks for your support and being part of something bigger.

Team NWCP

I, for one, have full and 100% confidence in NWCP.....The items I have received have been of excellent quality, and unlike others, I knew there would be mistakes made on delivery estimates. Robert has responded to me EVERY SINGLE time I've messaged or emailed him, and the answers he gave me to my questions were more than sufficient.
I'm still waiting for a few barrels, and a 308 upper/lower set, and am fully confident that they will be of the same high quality that the dozen uppers, anodized upper/lower set and the complete upper w/barrel I have already received, have been!

Well I have never had an email responded too from NWCP. And the way I read the email is if you were in on 308 stuff your sol and if you are in on ar15 stuff we will ship all that we have left so you might get something. BUT if I do get my 308 stuff I will be the first to put pics on here and let everyone know.

I received the same email a day or two ago.....I too am waiting for the .308 upper/lower set I ordered...
I have sent a couple of emails to them but no response yet from them.
I do think they will come thru eventually....still patiently waiting....
I had two other fundings for the AR15 stuff but one was 2ndAM Arms and the Pebble peak....both tits up it looks like.
I'll just get my AR15 lowers from Ares when they put them up at 50.00 again....bought several from Ares...all good pieces.
Dale

Diddo.  Barrel price investment too good to pass up

The gun vault posted on Facebook that they can't continue operations

They're claiming that they'll still deliver to everyone who funded them.  I'm guessing this is the last we'll ever hear of them.

 

http://www.nathansfiles.com/random/threat.jpg


I run the SNA discussion page on facebook (since Jerald Jason Saffle deletes anything remotely critical on his facebook page).

Guess he finally found the page and decided to threaten me with a lawsuit.

For a facebook page.

Dude doesn't take criticism well. Maybe he should just deliver. I'm around #80 and still waiting.

Just signed up.  I really hate fake 2nd Amendment supporters who try to trash the 1st Amendment as well.