www.jprifles.com/FreeFloatTubeSystem.php

www.jprifles.com/


I'm suprised this thing isn't more popular on this board.

I have this handguard on My IPSC 3-gun rifle,  and I really like it.

You can attach rails where You want them,  and leave them off where you don't.

This makes it very comfortable to shoot.

It's a very high quality item,  very popular with IPSC 3 gunners.

Looks bad assed to me.....+1

I've been considering the JP for my 20" upper, does the basic kit come with any picatinny rails?    

How easily can you add or remove the rails with the handguard attached?

Thanks  

I feel bad criticizing because JP is a true innovator in the industry and he runs a top notch business.  However I ordered one of his V-Tac handguard systems and was disappointed with the assembly.

For those of you unfamiliar with this tube, my point of contention is with the two piece barrel nut setup as shown below;



It consists of (1) an outer aluminum nut that threads onto the upper receiver's barrel nut threads and (2) a steel inner nut that threads into the outer nut and holds the barrel as it compresses the barrel extension against the receiver.

To assemble the unit, first the outer nut is screwed onto the upper receiver.  It does not tighten fully against the receiver as slight play must be left to allow the gas tube hole to align with the receiver's gas tube hole.  Next the barrel slides into place inside the outer nut and positions normally as the barrel index pin locates inside the notch.  Once the barrel is in position the inner steel barrel nut threads into the outer nut and stops against the barrel extension to provide the required tension to hold the barrel in place.

The problem I find with the system is when torque is applied to the inner steel barrel nut to secure the barrel, guess what else moves?  That's right, the outer barrel nut.  As the inner nut is tightened, the outer nut also moves and consequently misaligns the gas tube holes.  This prevents further assembly as the gas tube cannot be installed.

To eliminate this issue the JP instructions actually require the use of red Loctite on the upper receiver threads before installing the outer nut.  The instructions explain that stripping the Mil-Spec Teflon coating from the upper receiver's threads is good for proper Loctite adhesion and they also recommend letting the "glued" assembly dry overnight to provide the best defense against outer nut movement during barrel installation.

Long story short I find this assembly method unacceptable.  Yes, Loctite is a wonderful thing but requiring its use to overcome a fundamental mechanical torque principle is ridiculous.  It doesn't take a college degree to understand the outer nut will spin because it is connected to the inner nut.

During the installation of my tube, I kept the Loctite in the bottle and used a strap wrench to hold the outer nut while torquing the inner nut with a barrel wrench. With the strap wrench in my left hand going in one direction and the barrel wrench in my right hand going in the other it was a pain the ass and I'm afraid to see what happens when I try to take things apart.

JP is very close to designing a great free float tube.  Light, very adaptable, and cost effective.  If he would only redesign the outer barrel nut with a mechanical anti-rotation tab similar to the LaRue or the Troy rail, he would have a real winner!

Quoted: JP is very close to designing a great free float tube.  Light, very adaptable, and cost effective.  If he would only redesign the outer barrel nut with a mechanical anti-rotation tab similar to the LaRue or the Troy rail, he would have a real winner!

It already is a winner.  
It's different from other tubes because it IS innovative.
When you use the proper locktite the outer nut becomes part of the receiver and torque without some serious heat isn't going to move it.  Then you just torque down the barrel nut.  I put one on a rifle I built last month and it now has a couple hundred rounds through it without a hitch.
In my opinion your criticism is misplaced.  
But, to each their own.    

ETA:  BTW, Nice rifle Derek45!!

I installed Mine following John Paul's instructions.

THIS THING IS SOLID.

I hit the receiver threads with a wire brush, and thoroughly degreased them before using the Red217 Locktite.

The only possible concern is, when You 271 red lockTite the outer nut to the reciever they are bonded together,  forever,  unless you use a SHITLOAD of heat.

But with receivers only costing $100, it's no big deal.

Quoted: I feel bad criticizing because JP is a true innovator

Thanks for an honest review. Facts are not criticism. Loctite is not acceptable to me for a high end build. You saved me a headache.

Quoted: Thanks for an honest review. Facts are not criticism. Loctite is not acceptable to me for a high end build. You saved me a headache.

I appreciate that.

Quoted: Quoted: Thanks for an honest review. Facts are not criticism. Loctite is not acceptable to me for a high end build. You saved me a headache. I appreciate that.

I've always wondered what their barrel nut system was. Good post.

CHRIS

just wonderful, i dropped off my upper to have one put on last week.

maxwell

Here's a varmint rifle I build several years ago with a JP handguard.  I got the longer one to cover up the gas block.  Really a nice piece of workmanship........

Does red loctite have to be used or will one of the others work. Doing my own build and liked the look of the JP forearm. I do not want to be stuck with the upper permanently attached to the forearm.

Yes.  Red 271 is what they recommend.  You use the red loctite to bond the extension nut to the receiver.  The barrel goes on, then the barrel nut.  The float tube then attaches to the extension nut with some hex screws.  I used blue loctite on these.  Here's a Link to the instructions if you're interested. I too like the ability to put rails where I want them. Not just the the standard 3, 6, 9, 12, positions.  

Quoted: Does red loctite have to be used or will one of the others work. Doing my own build and liked the look of the JP forearm. I do not want to be stuck with the upper permanently attached to the forearm.

Re-read my post.  I didn't use any Loctite.

The only trouble with following their instructions is that unless you're very lucky you'll end up with a gap between the receiver nut & the receiver. I got around this by lapping the receiver nut on a glass plate with emory cloth until I could fit the receiver nut up tight to the receiver. The same went with tightening the barrel nut. I lapped it until the gas tube notch lined up with about 30ft/lbs of torque.

Quoted: We use the JP Handguards for a lot of upper builds - they are very nice handguards. www.talonarms.com/talonarms/images/large/products/Dsc01477_LRG.jpg www.talonarms.com

Do you use 271(red) when you install one of these?

Mike

Talon,

How do these "ride the bag" (sand bag) do the slots get in the way of the rifles back and forth motion?

Mike

Quoted: Does red loctite have to be used or will one of the others work. Doing my own build and liked the look of the JP forearm. I do not want to be stuck with the upper permanently attached to the forearm.

I used blue loctite. Mine hasn't moved. It has not been treated gently either.

Quoted: Quoted: Does red loctite have to be used or will one of the others work. Doing my own build and liked the look of the JP forearm. I do not want to be stuck with the upper permanently attached to the forearm. Re-read my post.  I didn't use any Loctite.

Maybe You should have followed the intructions, and used the 271 red locktite.

Professional UPSPA/IPSC shooters like Matt Burkett and Mike Voight don't seem to have any problems with them,  and niether do I.

Quoted: Maybe You should have followed the intructions, and used the 271 red locktite. Professional UPSPA/IPSC shooters like Matt Burkett and Mike Voight don't seem to have any problems with them,  and niether do I.

Good for you.  Do you feel justified with your purchase now?

I don't expect you to understand, but I refuse to "glue" machined metal parts together.  It goes against everything I know as a designer, machinist, and engineer.  It is just not considered the "right way" to do things.  

Granted, Loctite is great stuff for securing nuts and bolts, but this application is completely different.  The JP tube requires and expects Loctite to help resist the torque of the barrel wrench.  Completely unacceptable.

BTW, I met Matt Burkett at a 2nd Chance shoot in Michigan several years ago.  I handled one of his 1911s.  Matt was a great guy, but his pistol was trashed.  There was rust on the slide and frame and it was stainless!  The grip screws were mucked up, and the sights looked like they were put on with a sledgehammer.  Professional shooters don't treat their equipment the same way as most people.  Their focus is on other things and that's great as they're being paid to perform, not assemble.  Needless to say I can understand why Matt or any other professional wouldn't care about "gluing" their ARs together.

When I build precision AR rifles my focus is on small tolerances and craftsmanship.  It is not the proper place for Loctite.

Yeah Burkett's guns are not safe queens.
I've handled 'em too.

That's the point I was trying to make, these guys are hard on guns, and the JP works fine.

I talked to John Paul before I bought mine. He said the 271 was permanent unless I heated it up with a torch. He said to let the 271 dry overnight, and I wouldn't be able to move it installing the barrel and it would never shoot loose.

I decided to try it, I built this gun for playing IPSC and killing coyotes, and for that it's wonderful.

Take Care.

I have to agree with glock24.  I've been eyeing the JP/VikingTactics forend for a long time because I like the idea of not paying for picrails that I just don't need.  The only other forend that is similar is the Dave Lauck D&L Sports forend, which is equally sexy and practical.

I am very disappointed to hear that loctite is required for the JP assembly.  I was wanting to build a middie and thought to use the JP forend, mainly because D&L won't offer a midlength forend.

After reading this, I'll be sticking with the Carbine gas system and putting a Lauck forend on.

I understand that loctite works, but I think this is a shortcut used to circumvent a redesign.  The principle is sound, and the quality of build/materials is there.  But glue?  Come on, JP!

I can't say that it doesn't work, JTAC.  A bud's got one on his precision AR and I love the look and feel.  After handling it, I had thought about getting a quote from you (saw your pics of exactly what i want).  But, I still think there is something inherently wrong about not being able to more easily remove the forend.

What if a better mousetrap comes along next season?

Like I said, it's good stuff, and I was just a hair away from making a call.  

I’ve installed MANY of these HG’s on rifles…….the locktite is there for only one reason. To keep the nut stationary during assembly. I’ve used 271, 242 and others and they all seemed to work fine. I’ve also done the strap deal as well….and is a major pain IMHO. I’ve even stuck a pin thru the area where the gas tube goes thru the receiver and hand guard nuts, to line up the assy. Some seem to work fine, and some seem to have drawbacks…..I just find the lock tite works best. You need something to keep that nut from turning during assy….I choose to use loctite…..there are more ways to skin that cat, it just seems that a couple pennies and a little wait time makes my job a whole lot easier…..YMMV.  I don’t want to attack anyone here…this glock guy simply chose another way to skin the cat….which is fine…..it seemed to work for him and he has a VERY nice JP HG on his rifle now. And if he does remove the HG….he will not have any problems either, just be sure to use the strap wrench technique again so the nut doesn’t rotate. (I very rarely remove HG’s once they are on….not that I do not, it’s just once they are on, I pretty much consider them a permanent fixture)….he simply held the outer nut in place mechanically, rather than letting the loctite be his third hand….I am glad it worked for him.

I’ve talked with John at great length on this…..it is NOT a design flaw, they took a good hand guard and made it better. I noticed some one mentioned the Dave Lauck HG…..it mounts the same way as the JP, only instead of using a std armorers tool, you stick a rod in a hole to tighten up the inner nut….I’ve installed a few of these too and use lock tite as well to hold the aluminum nut in place….during assy.

What I do like about the JP HG is the fact that it is vented and all the vents serve a purpose to mount tac rails or sling studs…..or if you are REALLY creative, weave nylon parachute cord in there to get that nice cushy feel on your HG. As far as the tac rails go….yes, you put them where you want and leave them off where you don’t. I do have a few AR’s the 4 rail HG’s and find them uncomfortable…..but they still have the ‘cool’ look I guess.H……and

Okay, ya'll got me to rethink my thinking.  Nice thing about intellectual discourse, ain't it?!

Good to hear vaughn.......kinda funny how that works, isnt it.

To be honest, all I need is a little shove.  While I like the looks of the railed forends, they are far more expensive (especially when you include the cost of rail protectors) and I just don't have any need for all of that rail space.  

I recently built an AR using the JP extended carbine handguard and I like it alot but have two basic problems with it one is due to the fact that I'm also using this in conjunction with an adjustable gas block:  
First problem is that you cannot adjust the gas block without removing the handguard.  Petty annoyance maybe, but had to drill a hole in the handguard to allow for a hex driver to access the adjustment screw or remove the handguard every time to adjust the block which just isn't gonna happen.  If you are always using similar loads, this is a non-issue as you can set it once and forget about it but I use many different loads so adjustment becomes a hassle without drilling the access hole.  BTW, the adjustable gas block is the JP block.
Second problem is that the sight pocket does not leave enough space to place a front sight on the gas block.  An A2 sight fits nicely in the sight pocket but an aftermarket gas block with rail and front sight does not fit.  I'm not using a front sight on this particular rifle at this time but can easily see a problem I choose to. I would have to ream out the sight pocket to allow for a front sight.  
I'm not complaining as I think it's a great handguard and has a better feel to it than fully railed handguards IMO but I think these are two things to be aware of if using the extended carbine length with sight pocket.  I should have thought about this earier but...  
I don't think the other sizes would have either of these two relatively minor problems.as the handguards would be behind the gas block.

J

height=8

Quoted: I don't think the sight pocket model was supposed to be used with a JP adjustable block. The sight pocket is made for a FSB to fit through. If you want to run a JP block under a handguard, just turn down the block, or get one from me that's already turned down. Then you can run any handguard that's 1.75" ID which includes the JP's. www.ar15barrels.com/gfx/jp750shaved.jpg

I appreciate the input, hadn't heard that before.  Problem is that you then lose the option of having a sight affixed to the gas block.  I understand you *can* put a sight on the rail but I personally wouldn't.

Even with turning it down though and never having the option of the front sight, you'd still have to drill the hole in the handguard to allow for gas adjustment.  Again, not a biggie but I would rather that any company's parts be able to work in conjunction with each other or specifically state that they will not.  Still not complaining though as the better feel overrides my petty annoyance - I don't mind doing the extra work to get what I want but anyone wanting to do a similar project would have to do the same thing.

Hope all is well,
J

I ordered one the other day and look forward to recieving it. People can argue about its attributes, or lack thereof, from an engineering standpoint all day long for all I care. All I care is gear that works and will take a beating. I'm not looking for an award winning safe queen to drool at and never shoot. My guns are tools - if the JP freefloat fits that FUNCTIONAL role - who cares how it ranks in the world of designers or whether it looks pretty.  

height=8

Quoted: I'm coming out with my own line of adjustable gas blocks that adjust from the front. All you need is a long allen wrench, no extra holes to be drilled.

I look forward to seeing it.  BTW, I took a good look at your site, looks like you build nice equipment.  I'm fairly certain you will be hearing from me on a future build :)

J_Smith,
I think it'll fit the bill quite nicely.  It really is a nice pice of equipment and serves it's purpose very well IMO.  Has a very comfortable feel to it so you can concentrate on what matters most without distraction.

J

When will that gas block be available.

JTAC and TALON,
Do you see much of their "matte grey" or "OD"?  I'm wondering which is a better color match to Magpul "Foliage" and "OD", respectively.

I agree that looks like just the thing I would like to put on my next rifle keep us posted on the progress of the .750".

Just installed my new JP fore end and the talk about the use of loctite is just waaaaaaay over blown. After reading the postings I was sceptical about buying teh JP set up. The price is better then most other manufacturers on the market. After seeing how everything assembles onto the receiver I had no reservations about going forward with the installation. I am very happy with the set up and the advantages it has over other manufacturers; cost, additional rails, comfort, wieght, and it just plain looks cool. All in all a good purchase and like I said the whole crying over the use of a little lock tite on the assembely is totally over blown. Maybe they had a problem that it was created around competition rather than combat?