So the smith did not want to pay for my barrel while admitting fault. He still insisted, though, that the barrel could be measured from the base versus from the breach face, which made me wary of sending it to him again despite him saying he could somehow manage to get a hold of a BCM BFH barrel that is currently out of stock. More than likely, he wanted to get it back and waste my time installing multiple washers or a cheaper barrel and then still charging me for the job, which was initially $160 and was finally billed as $220 without telling me in advance.

Lots of red flags, so in the end, it's better to cut ties. If it wasn't for him insisting that you could measure the barrel the wrong way, him admitting he never removed the barrel from the upper in the first place but still charged me for a full disassembly, reassembly job, then charging me more than agreed and trying to convince me it was BCM's fault for either having too short a barrel or the wrong size handguard (neither of those things are true), I may have sent it back to let him fix it, but all of that gave me a bad feeling, and I felt that he may make the situation worse for me and waste more of my time and money.

I tried to persuade him to just send me money for either the barrel or flash hider, but he refused. S & S Precision is the business name in case anyone is wondering. I tried to let him make it right, but he wanted to do it his way.

"Our company is synonymous with quality, perfection, and aesthetics."

"All of our work is performed to the very highest standards in the precision shooting."

Obviously not.

Do provide more details on the business please, such as address, city, and state.  Even a phone number would not be out of line.  S&S Precision without location does not mean a whole lot since I bet there are lots of businesses with the name S&S Precision.  I found three companies in three different locations and while it seems obvious which one you are talking about,  IMO it is better to be perfectly clear rather than risk besmirching another company with the same name but totally unrelated.

Is this guy the S&S P in Denton TX?  There is another S&S P in VA Beach and a third in Springfield TN but they do not appear to do any gunsmithing.

I hate reading these threads and unfortunately this is not the first time I have read threads like this.  That sucks OP you got burned but ARFCOM has a few vendors we highly recommend for this very job.  Hope everything turns out in the end for you.

This is the owner of the shop.

You have not made any payment for the completed job as promised, despite indicating that you would do so via PayPal. Following my contact with you, you mentioned encountering issues with your PayPal account, resulting in non-payment. It is important to clarify that I have not received any payment from you.

After I insisted on receiving the payment for the job, you then mentioned a problem with the barrel. It is perplexing that you are now requesting money from me for a payment that was never made in the first place.

I informed you that if there was an issue with the job, you could bring the barrel back so we could address it together. I assured you that I would gladly rectify any issues, but you have declined to take this step. It is apparent that you are publicizing these matters without telling the entire story. You never paid. You left happy and have not brought it back since for me to address the issue.  When you left my shop you were happy.
I have the end that I cut off your barrel. It is a inch and a quarter only.  I repeatedly told you to come up here several times so we could resolve the issue and you have refused.

One more reason cutting a 16" down just to add a permanent muzzle device all to save 1/2" of overall length to impress your friends and internet strangers is stupid.
And your smith owes you a new barrel.

Interesting twist.

Pics don't lie. Not 16" OAL.

If he left happy because you "showed him" that it was good and then he realized once he got home that you were full of crap, then:

1. Being happy when he left means nothing
2. He is right to not bring it back to you since you clearly have no idea what you're doing

3. It's a good thing is the payment didn't go through since you don't seem inclined to do the right thing anyway

If this is truly your attempt to cut and pin the barrel to 16", then you are doing it wrong according to the ATF.

None of what you said precludes OP from having issues with your work after he left your shop. He measured and it was short. Why should he pay you for clearly sub-par work?

How are you going to address the issue of cutting the barrel too short? You owe him a new barrel and muzzle device.

Wow...that's ballsy. Job not done correctly and this is your defense?

Lol, I love this place! Not to pile on too much but OP is owed a new barrel, at a minimum.

I am going to reserve my judgement till all the evidence is in.  The ilovehunting guy IM'ed me asking how to post pictures sounds like this story could have more to it then what we know currently.

When your defense is to attack character and isn't related to the technical merits of the work I have to wonder what he really has to show.

+1

I am just saying there are always two sides to every story.  In two pages of discussion OP has not posted one pic demonstrating or producing evidence of his side of the story.  Remember this is the internet people do lie all the time on the internet and sometimes they do it to be malicious just read some one star reviews on restaurants.  All I am saying is stay objective and do not pick a side till you have heard and seen all the evidence.  I am willing to hear both sides and I know very well from being on this site for years that AR/blackriflesmiths fuck up pin and welds all the time this is hardly the first time this topic has popped up.

There are always two sides to a story, at least.

@Ilovehunting

Were you originally supplied with the barreled upper receiver or just the barrel along with instructions?

Hack Smith owes OP a new barrel.

Op posted pics. I reposted them as did someone else earlier in the thread.

Here they are again. There's not much left to discuss imo. That's not 16" the way the atf measures.  

Attached File
Attached File

Yeah, I like to approach things with clean hands, so to speak. If the OP didn't pay for the services, then that is on the OP to fix first before going into the workmanship and refund, if any. At this point, I don't think either party really has any sort of standing. The gunsmith owes the OP a new barrel, and the OP owes the gunsmith money for his services. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Here's the problem, you can't eat the steak and then refuse to pay. If you go into a restaurant, order something, take one bite, say you don't like it because they didn't cook it, and refuse to pay for some reason then guess who is going to win in the argument? The restaurant would win 100%. You have to go into situations with clean hands, so to speak. Either refuse it initially, or refuse to accept it and return it. The OP took the barrel home, and refused to pay. I feel the OP has solid reasons for reserving not to pay because the barrel is undersized, but still, he has to pay before the gunsmith can make it right. Assuming the gunsmith is legit, he would fix the problem once he gets payment.

A further concern I would have is concentricity. Did he recut threads? Did he center the bore in a 4 head chuck? Do you plan to use a suppressor?

He owes you a new barrel....PERIOD

That is stupid.

"Gunsmith screwed up the job and refuses to admit it, I haven't paid him yet, but I should so that I can ask him to give me a refund which it's clear he isn't interested in giving."

How do you "return" labor? It's not like he bought the barrel, or a steak, in your example. Gunsmith showed him it was "good" by misrepresenting the length on the stick to convince OP it  was good, which led him to take the barrel home.

To use your example, it would be like OP took his raw steak to a chef to cook it medium. When he came to pick it up, the guy convinced him it was cooked medium, and then he took it home to eat. Upon sitting down to eat, he realized it's a well-done chewy piece of beef jerky. Then the chef calls him to say the card was declined, so please send payment again.

You're saying he should pay just so he can ask for a refund since the steak wasn't done right? Especially after the chef tells you that dark brown/gray inside IS medium!

Uh, no thanks, bud, and you owe me a raw steak!

Well stated.

Ahhh I thought you posted those pics as reference and did not think much of it.

I disagree. If the guy was a professional and worked in good intentions, then he should be paid for his work. The guy didn't admit to screwing up, all he said was he was willing to look at it and the OP NEVER CAME BACK. Sure we have pictures, but who knows how truthful it is given the OP left out the part he refused to pay and the part he never went back there to get it looked at.

So I'm sort of on the OP's side but I'm also wondering the missing elements. If the OP paid his labor, and gave the guy the chance to correct it then it is considered even. What you're saying is that the gunsmith, unseen of this error, must pay him a new barrel? That's a bit silly to me.

The OP at the very minimum should go there, pay for his work, and let the gunsmith attempt to correct it. When I had my barrel damaged by the gunsmith, I paid the guy and went back there and asked him to correct it. He did but albeit he made it "functional" but worse. So I know my hands were clean and yeah I could have taken him to court probably and win my barrel cost back at least, but I never did. I considered it a lesson but you should always have your hands clean in any thing even if the other person did wrong.

Part of this story does not make sense how do you leave with the completed barrel without paying?  How is OP in possession of his barrel why did the smith turn over his work without him paying?  PayPal was mentioned but again why would you release your work without payment.

The steak analogy does not apply OP should have paid when he picked up and then discovered it was not done correctly according to the story we have.  I still think we are missing major parts of the story and OP and the contesting smith are both now MIA.

You should re-read this thread.

Who knows where things went fuckey here?

What information was relayed to the smith?
(Was it "this is 16", cut off 1.5" and P/W")?
OR
(Was it "I want this chopped and P/W to 16" legal OAL.")?


If what the OP posted is true (barrel was never removed from the receiver and 1.5" was cut off AND the "correct way to measure the barrel is to measure OAL " vs what the ATF has laid out), then it's pretty clear what happened.

Regardless, it's borked and needs reworked in order to be correct.

Correct. I made an update to that post. I mentioned earlier that I had a gunsmith mess my barrel up. I still paid him, but I went back to ask him to fix it. He did but it was still so badly messed up that I had to toss the barrel. I could have easily went to court and win my barrel cost at least but I never went back. The way I see it was a expensive lesson.

The OP should really pay for his barrel if he haven't already. Alot of these gunsmiths are really cool about payment. The one I went to would frequently let me take my stuff back as I went to the ATM to get the cash. So I'm not surprised at all he let him walk out the door with it.

Yes, we have two stories here. One involving the assumption the OP paid, and the gunsmith is adament that he did it correctly and the OP is left with a short barrel. The other story from the gunsmith is that he was never paid and he asked the OP to return so he can correct it. He's still willing to correct it even though he wasn't paid, so whatever that must mean, I don't know.

Overall I think some juicy thing is happening here. Hopefully the OP and the gunsmith will return and talk about what happened. Hopefully both in agreement with a fix.

*if

It seems clear at this point from OPs post and the gunsmith's own post that the gunsmith isn't professional.

If you go get your hair trimmed before an important business meeting and the guy accidentally shaves your head, are you going to pay him and ask him to fix it?

There's nothing to fix on OPs barrel other than replacing it (which the gunsmith should do) and trying to not screw up the second time.

I think it's a logical conclusion, especially based on the gunsmith's refusal to even admit that he screwed up in the first place, that this course of action would be throwing good money after bad.

Thus, the best option in a normal scenario would be to insist on a refund and replacement for the barrel the gunsmith irreparably damaged due to his incompetence and then take the money and the barrel to someone who can do the job right.

But in OP's case, by some miracle, the payment somehow didn't go through, so he can skip the step of taking the "gunsmith" to small claims court to get his money back for services not rendered. But you say he should pay him first in order to be able to complain about the poor job he did in order to insist on a refund? wtf man... I hope you don't give advice for a living.

The gunsmith did not appear to have done bad work. It might have been an honest misunderstanding on his part to measure from the barrel extension. That seems to be his only fault out of this. He was able to cut it, thread it, and pin the muzzle device and it appears he done an okay job from the pictures.

If he honestly measured it from the barrel extension and not from the bolt's face then he needs to fix it.

All I'm saying is he should pay him, and have him correct it. At least an attempt to since the barrel is messed up anyway.

If we believe the OP paid and the gunsmith is set on him being correct, then based on the OP's side the gunsmith is lying. If the gunsmith is true that he tried to have him come over, regardless of paying, then we must assume that he's at least honest about what he's doing and attempting to correct it.

lol. are you kidding me?

You went through this situation, where you paid, let him try to fix it, but since an incompetent gunsmith is incompetent, there was no saving the barrel, so you just accepted it and ate the cost of the useless work that didn't provide what you paid for, and also ate the cost of the now ruined barrel, which you admit you'd be able to win in court if you bothered to go.

And OP's payment didn't go through, so you're insisting that he should pay for the same thing, which would require him to also go to court to try to get it back instead of just refusing to pay? Do you just want it to cost him the same as it cost you to learn the lesson? are you jealous that he got away with learning the lesson cheaper than you or something?

Your position is contrary to common sense, and it's an even weirder position to have if you've been through the same situation.

I'm not sure what your position is to be honest. You're trying to say that the gunsmith should shell out all these new things sight unseen of the barrel that he supposedly damage.

We have two stories here. One from the OP and one from the gunsmith. It seems like you're totally believing the OP even though he left out some critical things the gunsmitg brought up. If you are a true master of common sense, wouldn't it make sense to wait and see? It's clear from the gunsmith he's willing to look at it unpaid from the OP. So if anything the OP should at the very least go there with his barrel and see what he does.

He did pick up his property from the gunsmith under the impression services were rendered.  In the eyes of the law technically he has committed theft by not paying for those services even though we know the services are a mistake or done wrong.  
If someone builds me a fence and I wanted it 16" high and upon completing what the contractor believes is correct services rendered I look at it from across the yard and say yup that looks good.  I tell the contractor I am going to send electronic payment and then the contractor leaves and I go inside have dinner, take a crap, shower and then decide "Oh I should measure my fence".  I walk outside measure it and it is 15.9" tall and I decide well I am not going to pay for this fence.  Who is in the wrong at the moment?  The contractor has not obligation to come back and rectify the fence because I am already delinquent on payment I agreed to pay.

What OP should have done was verified the work at pickup and if it was wrong not accepted his property demanding it be fixed.

Did anyone measure the muzzle device to make aure it’s not short? The barrel could be correct and the muzzle device is short or threaded to deep….

You're saying he should pay him and have him correct it... like your gunsmith did for you?

OP never said he paid. He said:

It seems clear that not only did the gunsmith screw up, but he doubles down on the wrong way to measure, promises to be able to fix it by replacing the barrel with likely an inferior product or some bubba solution... but he then bumped up the price. This says he would charge him for the job after doing the "repairs", which means OP hasn't paid anything yet. It appears he has only asked for the monetary value of the barrel that now needs to be replaced.

His reasoning in refusing to drive 2 hours to let the guy hold his gun hostage while he provides an unsatisfactory fix and insists on higher than originally discussed pricing seems pretty straightforward to me.

You remind me of the guy who throws $100 bill in the porta-potty because he dropped a $5 bill into the hole and he's sure as hell not going down there for only $5!

OP is the guy who looks at the $5 bill sinking into the shit and says, "nah, ill just buy another barrel and get a competent gunsmith to do the job right."

You are assuming that what we have been told is 100% the truth.  I would like to see both the smith and OP come to some agreement even if that means the smith has to buy a new barrel or if fixing the job is possible.  The smith is going to come to one of two conclusions ... 1. it can be fixed and brought into compliance with the law along with what OP originally wanted as his outcome  OR 2. the smith buys a new barrel and OP either has him do the job or he goes elsewhere

We have established the barrel is not correct but should the smith have the opportunity to try and make things wrong and OP pay for the services rendered.  I think the way everyone is acting this is just going to leave OP screwed over unless they can come to an agreement where everyone walks away satisfied and I doubt happy is even on the table at this point.

That's an disingenuous example.

0.1" from your fence doesn't make you a felon. It also isn't the whole point of hiring the guy.

If you hire a guy to install a catalytic convertor on your car for compliance, and at the shop when picking it up he shows you his work and at first glance it looks fine but when you get home you realized he installed a hollow tube that kind of resembles a catalytic convertor but isn't one and doesn't satisfy compliance regs, and when you call him he tells you that hollow pipes are compliant with regulations - are you going to send him that electronic payment for his work?

Who is in the wrong in that moment? You hired him to get you compliant, and you aren't.

And are you going to drive an hour one way back to let him hold onto your car for another week and try to fix it? especially when the catalytic convertor you brought to him initially to install is out of stock, so he can't buy another one and there's no way to salvage the one you initially brought him for install?

I mean, why would you let him touch your car again?



Like OP said, this would be a way different scenario if the gunsmith, upon OP's contact, had said, "oh shoot! you're right! I must have cut the wrong side of the masking tape! :facepalm: That's totally not long enough, I don't know how I missed that! Bring it back and I'll see what I can do, but it probably needs to be replaced completely, which I'll cover since this was totally my fault!"

But that seems to be the opposite of what the gunsmith said. And before you go accusing me of "believing OP with no evidence" keep in mind the guy popped his head in here and confirmed he seems to be unprofessional and not willing to take responsibility for his actions, which is exactly as OP describes him!

I think you're blowing it up way out of proportion. If I met someone like you who came into my store and told me all these wrongs I did I would tell you to sue me before calling the cops. Your entire assumption is that the gunsmith knowingly made an error, refuses to admit it, and that the OP should be reimbursed a new barrel regardless of what he attempts to do.

The point is yes, he owes him a new barrel and/or a fix for his current barrel. You're saying that he should have 0 chance of touching it "ever again" because your assumption is that he maliciously and was negligent in attempting to cut the OP's barrel down. You're basing it all off a picture from the OP, and didn't give the gunsmith a chance to even explain what is going on or even look at it. You're saying that the gunsmith, without even seeing proof of what he done wrong, should reimburse the OP through nothing more than being an incompetent person. You're saying that the gunsmith should be fired and that the gunsmith should live in shame and darkness for the rest of his life never to touch another gun ever again. All because he dared touch the OP's precious barrel and messed it up.

You keep saying that I should be on the side of the OP and should grab my pitchfork at any gunsmith who made even the slightest of error. My thought is that instead of doing that use it as a learning experience. Instead of depending on a gunsmith, depend on yourself. Anyone can pin and weld a barrel with just using a little imagination and watching some videos. I rather not waste my effort and time to oust a gunsmith. I know the business itself is small enough that me just not going there is going to hurt him badly just like if the OP never went there again and instead next time did it himself.

I think you should relax a little. You're going to pop a blood vessel living life being angry at every person. If you're saying it's so simple, and that you're so smart and that you know exactly what needs to be done, then here's a good idea: actually do that next time instead of calling out every person you think is after you.

We're all humans, and make errors. If the gunsmith made an honest error, he should attempt to fix it after seeing what is wrong. The fix should be based on the best of his ability and knowledge and that doesn't mean he has to bend over backwards and shell out money to have something fixed that is a very easy to fix. All he needs to do is add some shims to the barrel and it'll meet the 16" requirement based on the picture I'm seeing. not that hard if the OP gave him a chance. If anything the gunsmith should refund his service cost or in this case just not pursue the initial charge since the OP never paid him.

The pics don't lie, it's not 16" OAL.

The OP is dissatisfied with the smith.

The smith is here because someone invited them and wants to salvage their reputation/absolve them.

Given the recount of events and known facts, no way in hell should the OP return to the business.

OP likely will not return here honestly.

Yeah you're probably right about that. Hopefully the OP will get his barrel fixed by a different gunsmith. It seems like a very easy fix with some shims on it. Hard to tell from the photos just how much it is off but it seems to me like a very small amount.

You've said I keep saying quite a few things I've never said. A fan of hyperbole, too, I see.

Principally, I never assigned (nor did OP) malice to the actions of the gunsmith. Only incompetence. Which seems to be self evident, and the kinder of those two options.

But incompetence in place of malice isn't going to convince me to trust him to do any better the second time. When someone shows you're they're bad at something - believe them.

I fire people for honest errors all the time. Just because you didn't mean to screw up doesn't mean you're off the hook. Results matter a lot more than intentions.

You want to use it as a learning experience? Fine. No disagreement from me there. But to insist that OP should pay for the experience so that he can hope for additional poor results and then maybe hope for a refund is foolish.

How about the gunsmith "use it as a learning experience" to not suck. If you suck and get paid anyway, then what's the point of getting better? If you screw up and it costs you then maybe you'll pay more attention next time. Or at least improve your customer communication skills and taking ownership of your honest errors. OP is just voting with his wallet, and refusing to pay for lack of results.

I get what you mean but at the end of the day an agreement was made between OP and the gunsmith.  Looking at with all we know it looks like both sides have not lived up to their agreements.  I could be wrong because I think we are missing info, being deceived, or who knows but where we stand looks like both parties are getting screwed OP on his barrel and smith on labor but there are some good take away from all this.  OP could have clearly stated the work he wanted down with the parameters set out by AFT, smith could do some research, OP could verify work before leaving, and smith could have made sure payment was made before releasing the work.  Crappy situation I hope has a respectful resolution.

Let me also say the gunsmith is not a lawyer. There are so many laws in the book. If the OP went to the gunsmith and said he wanted it pin & welded to comply with the NFA laws, then yes, that is completely on the gunsmith. But if the OP just went in and said he wanted a barrel chopped and pinned, then that's exactly what the gunsmith did. The gunsmith is not a lawyer and going to sit down there citing laws and rules.

I agree though hopefully some sort of agreement was made between the OP and gunsmith. Would be nice to hear from them, but who knows. Perhaps in a week or so.