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Posted: 7/30/2017 8:00:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whoever makes them for the .mil. Why is that so hard? |
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Posted: 7/30/2017 10:18:50 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whoever makes them for the .mil. Why is that so hard? |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 6:12:26 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's data that suggest the HPT tested bolts fail much quicker. they crack at the cam pin hole linky about a BCM bolt Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's data that suggest the HPT tested bolts fail much quicker. they crack at the cam pin hole linky about a BCM bolt Quoted:
That is my bolt. It is a data point of 1. 1 does not indicate they have a problem, it indicates that this one bolt had a problem. BCM proudly stood behind their product. High pressure testing applies a load to the locking lugs only. That bolt is cracked at the cam-pin hole, an area of the bolt not stressed by HPT. I really wish people would stop posting mis-information due to ignorance about the subjects they want to "enlighten" the internet about. |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 11:29:39 AM EDT
[#4]
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Primarily because of the SOCOM data from pg 44 of this powerpoint. http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006/smallarms/taylor.pdf ETA: I would expect the LMT Enhanced bolt to last 60,000+. I still don't buy them because I've got a bunch of AR's and very few of them see high round counts. This is recent testing done on M4A1s  Attached FileThere you go. 12,000 rounds is the average life of a C158 bolt in the M4A1 when subjected to a harsh firing schedule. |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 12:39:54 PM EDT
[#5]
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I just replaced my Radical Arms RIP 15 BCG last month with a Fail 0 because the gas key was loose again and the firing pin (though still working) was cracked and partially broken at tip. |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 12:57:32 PM EDT
[#6]
I own a Colt SP-1 that I purchased new around 1981 that has seen close to 10,000+/- rounds and it still runs like a top.
I have never broken a bolt, but I don't hip shoot, do magazine dumps, bump fire or any other yahoo style shooting. I have run combat style matches where I am double tapping as soon as my sights get on target, going as fast as I am able. I own LMT, DD, Continental Machine & Tool, Colt and whatever bolts BCM sells. All have been reliable for me. |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 8:52:35 PM EDT
[#7]
I think you should have more ar's and not worry about breaking or wearing one out
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Posted: 7/31/2017 10:50:27 PM EDT
[#8]
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I have heard very little positive about products from Radical Arms. |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 11:01:36 PM EDT
[#9]
The irony is the only bolt I have has break was an LMT. Not enhanced, just standard. Cracked at the cam pin hole.
I use bolts from all the big names, I just make sure they are hp/mpi. |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 11:51:12 PM EDT
[#10]
the ARP Superbolt is by far the toughest out there. if you don't believe it, look at the specs on it.
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Posted: 8/1/2017 9:09:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the ARP Superbolt is by far the toughest out there. if you don't believe it, look at the specs on it. A standard C 158 bolt that's been mag particle tested is a good product. I see tons of advanced, fancy, space-tech AR parts on the market, and I keep thinking tha if they aren't putting these in M4, which are extremely hard run guns, then are they a solution looking for a problem? |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 9:11:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Specs are often like statistics: without context (and testing) they can be pretty boastful without being "false." A standard C 158 bolt that's been mag particle tested is a good product. I see tons of advanced, fancy, space-tech AR parts on the market, and I keep thinking tha if they aren't putting these in M4, which are extremely hard run guns, then are they a solution looking for a problem? |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 3:45:23 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You should update your data. This is recent testing done on M4A1s https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/414147/IMG-20170731-102907-267580.JPG There you go. 12,000 rounds is the average life of a C158 bolt in the M4A1 when subjected to a harsh firing schedule. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Primarily because of the SOCOM data from pg 44 of this powerpoint. http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006/smallarms/taylor.pdf ETA: I would expect the LMT Enhanced bolt to last 60,000+. I still don't buy them because I've got a bunch of AR's and very few of them see high round counts. This is recent testing done on M4A1s https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/414147/IMG-20170731-102907-267580.JPG There you go. 12,000 rounds is the average life of a C158 bolt in the M4A1 when subjected to a harsh firing schedule. Big .Mil is the buyer for the whole M4 program which also includes support units non combat units, National Guard and Reserves. They typically shoot only the annual minimums. IWQ is done on semi. Not harsh by any stretch of the imagination. The SOSCOM shoots more than 60 rounds a year. "Bolt Failure Problem o Most Bolts Subjected to Harsh Firing Schedules Will Show Initial Cracking Around 3,000 to 6,000 Rounds o On Milder Schedules, Nearly All Bolts Will Show Initial Cracking at 6,000 to 10,000 Rounds o Once the Crack Is Initiated, the Bolt May Fail at Any Time, or May Last for Thousands of Rounds, Depending on Crack Propagation" Source |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 4:09:38 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Specs are often like statistics: without context (and testing) they can be pretty boastful without being "false." A standard C 158 bolt that's been mag particle tested is a good product. I see tons of advanced, fancy, space-tech AR parts on the market, and I keep thinking tha if they aren't putting these in M4, which are extremely hard run guns, then are they a solution looking for a problem? |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 4:14:18 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's data that suggest the HPT tested bolts fail much quicker. they crack at the cam pin hole linky about a BCM bolt |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 9:00:42 AM EDT
[#16]
Bolts were given nearly double the lifespan by roller ball burnishing the rear of the locking lugs per a army study.
A standard c-158 bolt has more room for improvement just through post manufacturing processes. Think about that for a second. Double the bolt life of a standard bolt by just compressing the metal on the rear of the lugs. No need for fancy metals or re-designs. |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 1:23:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well not quite. That's the average and we are talking averages. Big .Mil is the buyer for the whole M4 program which also includes support units non combat units, National Guard and Reserves. They typically shoot only the annual minimums. IWQ is done on semi. Not harsh by any stretch of the imagination. The SOSCOM shoots more than 60 rounds a year. "Bolt Failure Problem o Most Bolts Subjected to Harsh Firing Schedules Will Show Initial Cracking Around 3,000 to 6,000 Rounds o On Milder Schedules, Nearly All Bolts Will Show Initial Cracking at 6,000 to 10,000 Rounds o Once the Crack Is Initiated, the Bolt May Fail at Any Time, or May Last for Thousands of Rounds, Depending on Crack Propagation" Source It was done in a test environment to see what the average bolt life was. It was from 2016, you're quoting 12+ year old data. I'm sure the SOCOM one was correct in 2006 Today they are seeing on average 12,000 rounds before bolts break in testing environments designed to push the bolts until they break. The whole point of that test was to break bolts, and then to prove roller ball burnishing could then double or triple the life cycle of the bolts. C158 is fine and 12,000 rounds is a good life span in a testing environment designed to break bolts. However that testing also showed roller burnishing the rear of the bolt lugs expanded bolt life to 23,000 rounds before the bolts break. So we don't need a super fancy expensive material. Roller burnishing C158 bolts and enjoy 20,000 rounds bolt life minimum. Who doesn't want a cheap easy to produce bolt with 20,000+ rounds bolt life? Roller burnishing and DLC coatings will be the future BCG for the M4 most likely as both are easy to do and offer extreme improvements. |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 8:53:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's kinda hard to get part changes like bolts approved. As a former senior QA NCO, the process for managing this isn't anywhere near rocket surgery. Sure, running M4s super hard will make their bolts fail earlier rather than later. But armorers who know this (which is like, a big part of their job in those units this applies to) should be inspecting bolts frequently and replacing them before they really fail. If this isn't SOP for some reason, shame on them. If I can figure this out (USAF is functionally afraid of guns, and my specialty wasn't on the "scary gun people" list), then I figure SpecOps should have it down to a science. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 12:19:29 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you read the image? It was done in a test environment to see what the average bolt life was. It was from 2016, you're quoting 12+ year old data. I'm sure the SOCOM one was correct in 2006 Today they are seeing on average 12,000 rounds before bolts break in testing environments designed to push the bolts until they break. The whole point of that test was to break bolts, and then to prove roller ball burnishing could then double or triple the life cycle of the bolts. C158 is fine and 12,000 rounds is a good life span in a testing environment designed to break bolts. However that testing also showed roller burnishing the rear of the bolt lugs expanded bolt life to 23,000 rounds before the bolts break. So we don't need a super fancy expensive material. Roller burnishing C158 bolts and enjoy 20,000 rounds bolt life minimum. Who doesn't want a cheap easy to produce bolt with 20,000+ rounds bolt life? Roller burnishing and DLC coatings will be the future BCG for the M4 most likely as both are easy to do and offer extreme improvements. It says historical and averages. Nothing about testing environments or testing to failure. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 3:32:07 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did read it. It says historical and averages. Nothing about testing environments or testing to failure. They then did it with roller burnished bolts and effectively doubled the bolt life. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 4:39:17 PM EDT
[#21]
Where can I get one of these roller burnished bolts?
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Posted: 8/3/2017 7:15:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where can I get one of these roller burnished bolts? |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 9:12:34 PM EDT
[#23]
I have no idea what bolt is the best for the AR, I can tell you that I've been shooting AR-15s since the mid 1980s and the only bolts I've had crack on me were in two uppers I bought from Model 1 Sales back in 2005. The bolts in both uppers broke before they hit 1000 rounds. I sent them back and the replacements I received are still running today and I've lost count of how many rounds.
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Posted: 8/3/2017 10:06:48 PM EDT
[#24]
I got a Cryptic Coatings (Toolcraft) with 1500 rounds on it literally no wear at all I wipe it with a paper towel and use q tips to clean it and literally still mirror finish (bronze one).
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Posted: 8/3/2017 10:23:24 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you read the image? It was done in a test environment to see what the average bolt life was. It was from 2016, you're quoting 12+ year old data. I'm sure the SOCOM one was correct in 2006 Today they are seeing on average 12,000 rounds before bolts break in testing environments designed to push the bolts until they break. The whole point of that test was to break bolts, and then to prove roller ball burnishing could then double or triple the life cycle of the bolts. C158 is fine and 12,000 rounds is a good life span in a testing environment designed to break bolts. However that testing also showed roller burnishing the rear of the bolt lugs expanded bolt life to 23,000 rounds before the bolts break. So we don't need a super fancy expensive material. Roller burnishing C158 bolts and enjoy 20,000 rounds bolt life minimum. Who doesn't want a cheap easy to produce bolt with 20,000+ rounds bolt life? Roller burnishing and DLC coatings will be the future BCG for the M4 most likely as both are easy to do and offer extreme improvements. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 10:23:55 PM EDT
[#26]
LMT Enhanced or KAC.
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Posted: 8/3/2017 10:36:26 PM EDT
[#27]
Any true milspec bolt, Colt, FN, BCM, etc..
I prefer Colt due to their proven durability & good availability, there are literally millions of them out there. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 11:06:40 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just replaced my Radical Arms RIP 15 BCG last month with a Fail 0 because the gas key was loose again and the firing pin (though still working) was cracked and partially broken at tip. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 11:25:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
HPT does not stress the bolt at the cam pin hole. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There's data that suggest the HPT tested bolts fail much quicker. they crack at the cam pin hole linky about a BCM bolt and the cam pin hole is where I see most bolts fail |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 11:47:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where can I get one of these roller burnished bolts? However I can guarantee when or if they become mil'spec you can bet everyone will begin doing it to bolts. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 11:57:07 PM EDT
[#31]
I never knew lack of lubricant was the chief cause of failure at the cam pin hole, but it makes sense.
You can't put a part "in a bind" like that, particularly if your fulcrum point is running through the center of the part. |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 12:46:28 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They did their own fire to failure testing to get the baseline results. They then did it with roller burnished bolts and effectively doubled the bolt life. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I did read it. It says historical and averages. Nothing about testing environments or testing to failure. They then did it with roller burnished bolts and effectively doubled the bolt life. |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 12:52:27 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I never knew lack of lubricant was the chief cause of failure at the cam pin hole, but it makes sense. You can't put a part "in a bind" like that, particularly if your fulcrum point is running through the center of the part. |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 1:09:54 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have to disagree with the lack of lubricant as chief cause. Mine were well lubed at the cam pin and still broke. The ones that broke at the lugs were also lubed at the cam pin. |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 2:37:20 AM EDT
[#35]
HP/MPI gave assurance that they did not come from the factory with cracks.
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Posted: 8/4/2017 8:55:46 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder what's actually causing it then? Maybe there was a crack previously, and you didn't notice it? |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 10:45:43 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LMT Enhanced or the superbolt if by toughest you mean strongest. If you're asking about the toughest coating then I don't have an opinion. I've run ARs in 7.62x39 for years and they're notoriously hard on bolts. But even when I first started LMT had the best reputation for longevity. Well, LMT and ARP Superbolt, which is no longer in production in 7.62x39. My LMT 7.62x39 bolt is still going strong. But most of my bolts are AIM. For the money I think they're a better deal. I can but a complete AIM bcg and a spare bolt back up kit for what an LMT bolt alone costs. Toolcraft also makes a great mil spec bcg for under $100. |
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Posted: 8/5/2017 5:04:14 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I own a Colt SP-1 that I purchased new around 1981 that has seen close to 10,000+/- rounds and it still runs like a top. I have never broken a bolt, but I don't hip shoot, do magazine dumps, bump fire or any other yahoo style shooting. I have run combat style matches where I am double tapping as soon as my sights get on target, going as fast as I am able. I own LMT, DD, Continental Machine & Tool, Colt and whatever bolts BCM sells. All have been reliable for me. The 20" long barrel & it's long gas tube (with the hard chromed bolt) that the gun was designed to use puts much less stress on the parts than these shorty gas systems that are favored today. |
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Posted: 8/5/2017 7:02:35 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 20" long barrel & it's long gas tube (with the hard chromed bolt) that the gun was designed to use puts much less stress on the parts than these shorty gas systems that are favored today. I just like the idea of spending a little more to mitigate risk of failure on my go-to AR. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 5:02:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I got a Cryptic Coatings (Toolcraft) with 1500 rounds on it literally no wear at all I wipe it with a paper towel and use q tips to clean it and literally still mirror finish (bronze one). |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 7:25:10 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder what's actually causing it then? Maybe there was a crack previously, and you didn't notice it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder what's actually causing it then? Maybe there was a crack previously, and you didn't notice it? Armalite and Stoner reduced the size of the can pin in both the AR18 and Stoner 63. This allows the web around the cam pin hole to be thicker Quoted:
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Posted: 8/7/2017 9:47:20 PM EDT
[#42]
I make my own bolts. Just the 7.62x39 now. It is not worth it to make a 5.56 bolt. You can buy a really good 9310 or 158 bolt for under $50. It takes me almost 2 hours to make one. There is a lot more to it than one might think. I have a very good computer controlled heat treat oven but not atmospheric controlled. That limits the different type of materials I use. When doing R@D you can not afford to send out a couple parts to heat treat. Cheapest I have found by a quality company is $289 a run. 1 part or 100. I use high tech alloys that I can heat treat myself. 17-4 stainless,custom 465 stainless, Aermet 100,4340 and S-7. 465 stainless is damn tough but sticky. You need to nitride it and there can be issues with that. Aermet heat treat is way to involved and super critical. I have settled on S-7. It took me a while to get the heat treat right on it. When done right, it is bad ass. I finally found a metallurgist who would actually give it up. Those guys keep it close to them selves. 9310 and 158 case harden only. The core remains softer which allows it to be more forgiving and fracture resistant. The problem with S-7 is that it hardens through the core. When you have a mixture of thick and thin sections in a part, the thinner sections can become brittle. This is the problem I had and many others as well. Once you get past that, it is a damn tough part. It takes too much babysitting to be cost effective in large production. 9310 and 158 are very safe and consistent. $100 worth of bolts will get you 20,000 rounds. The high end guys that get $2000-$2500 for a rifle can include those enhanced bolts. Craig
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Posted: 8/8/2017 6:39:59 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I make my own bolts. Just the 7.62x39 now. It is not worth it to make a 5.56 bolt. You can buy a really good 9310 or 158 bolt for under $50. It takes me almost 2 hours to make one. There is a lot more to it than one might think. I have a very good computer controlled heat treat oven but not atmospheric controlled. That limits the different type of materials I use. When doing R@D you can not afford to send out a couple parts to heat treat. Cheapest I have found by a quality company is $289 a run. 1 part or 100. I use high tech alloys that I can heat treat myself. 17-4 stainless,custom 465 stainless, Aermet 100,4340 and S-7. 465 stainless is damn tough but sticky. You need to nitride it and there can be issues with that. Aermet heat treat is way to involved and super critical. I have settled on S-7. It took me a while to get the heat treat right on it. When done right, it is bad ass. I finally found a metallurgist who would actually give it up. Those guys keep it close to them selves. 9310 and 158 case harden only. The core remains softer which allows it to be more forgiving and fracture resistant. The problem with S-7 is that it hardens through the core. When you have a mixture of thick and thin sections in a part, the thinner sections can become brittle. This is the problem I had and many others as well. Once you get past that, it is a damn tough part. It takes too much babysitting to be cost effective in large production. 9310 and 158 are very safe and consistent. $100 worth of bolts will get you 20,000 rounds. The high end guys that get $2000-$2500 for a rifle can include those enhanced bolts. Craig When you say it is sticky do you mean texture/lubricity wise for the bare metal? |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 8:42:50 PM EDT
[#44]
What I mean by sticky is it has a tendency to gall. Aermet 100 is great other than it is a little tough to machine and the heat treat is involved. Solution temperature is around 1600-1650. You hold for an hour and then let air cool to room temp. Then chill to -100 F for an hour. Then age it at 875-925 for 5 hours. It decarbs as well. So does S-7 but you can deal with that. On a charpy scale for fracture toughness,it rates at 30-40 foot pounds. S-7 when done right will go over 200 lbs. Aermet has a lot of nickel which gives it fracture resistance. S-7 does not have any nickle so that is why if the heat treat is not done properly, it can be brittle. Aermet is more forgiving. Any time you add nickel, you increase fracture toughness. 9310 and 158 both have 3-4 percent nickel. Aermet has 12 percent. The more nickel, the harder to machine. Aermet is over $35 a pound. You buy it by the inch. A 12 ft bar is over $700. 4340 makes a great bolt but it decarbs real bad and there is a lot of distortion when quenched in oil or other. Air quench alloys are very stable in quench. Craig
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Posted: 8/8/2017 10:17:58 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what are your opinions on aermet 100? just curious since KAC bolts are supposedly made of it and thats what im using. When you say it is sticky do you mean texture/lubricity wise for the bare metal? |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 12:28:09 AM EDT
[#46]
All your alloy steels are made up from a combination of chems. All have carbon. Carbon gives strength and hardness . The higher the percentage, the potential strength and hardness it can have, to a point. At some point it can be very hard but brittle. Nickel adds strength and toughness. Molybdenum adds depth of hardness, some corrosion and abrasion resistance and some strength. Chrome adds some corrosion and abrasion resistance and strength at high temps.Manganese adds to depth of hardness ability. Phosphorus adds strength. There is usually a little sulfur which is added for helping in machining. There is usually a little silicon which is a deoxidizer. There are a few others that might get thrown in like titanium, Cobalt,Vanadium and even Aluminum to achieve desired results. The experts decide what ingredients to mix to get a certain performance. The hardest will not be the toughest and the toughest will not be the hardest. A bolt is one of the harder applications. It has to be hard enough not to wear but tough enough not to fracture. The more complicated the recipe, usually the more complicated the heat treat. Aermet has twice the carbon than 9310 or 158. Potential harder but less fracture resistant. Then they add 4 times the Nickel than the other two to gain fracture resistance. Then they add twice the chrome than 9310 and 158 Then they add 8 times more moly than 9310. 158 has no molybdenum. Then they throw in a little Titanium, Cobalt. Aluminum(helps in case hardening and nitriding) Phosphorus and nitrogen. When you add one thing it can reduce the effectiveness of another. It is a real science.Aermet is very complicated. It has all the vitamins in amounts that can work together. Hope I am not boring you guys. Craig
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Posted: 8/9/2017 12:33:52 AM EDT
[#47]
For anyone interested, I've asked on KAC sub section and emailed about what the SR15 E3 bolt was made of and the KAC reps will not disclose the material used.
I've also searched online, and seems like it was never mentioned on the forums, and no one, other than select few KAC employees, seems to know about the material used. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:26:11 PM EDT
[#48]
What's your thoughts on the testing showing roller burnishing the lugs on C158 essentially doubling the bolt life to beyond 20,000 on hard use M4's?
Would that be a cost effective alternative to new metals. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 7:37:34 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hope I am not boring you guys. Craig |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 9:45:46 PM EDT
[#50]
Roller burnishing the filet radius is the way to go. Bolts made from 9310 and 158 would increase life dramatically just by increasing the filet radius behind the lug and roller burnishing. That is where almost all the stress concentration is. Mil spec calls for .020 +0 -.010. .020 is minimal to begin with and .010 is crap. Just by going to .030 is huge. There is enough relief in the extension to do it. Some time every one should take a look at a bolt under magnification. You can usually tell a good bolt from a not so good bolt real easy. A very common mistake is where they cut the lead in angle on the back side of the lug where it first enters into the extension. If they plunge down and go into the base diameter , that puts a sharp corner in the lug filet. That is where it will eventually fail. I was real hot on all the new super alloys for a while. I was going to find that KRYPTONITE. All I really did was drive myself nuts. A couple dimension changes and procedures is real all that is needed.I also got away from nitriding bolts. I am back on planet Earth now. Craig
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