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Posted: 6/16/2017 11:25:16 AM EDT
I have a buddy who has a Smith & Wesson Sport and the gun continues to keyhole. He spoke with Smith and they have provided him a new upper, but he continues to have this issue. What say you guys?
The trigger has been modified/replaced. https://youtu.be/kA0gcC5aWuk  
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Posted: 6/16/2017 11:40:46 AM EDT
[#1]
What do you mean bullet flip?
Do you mean the projectiles aren't stabilizing? Edit: I guess I should have watched the video first. Most folks call that keyholing. That's crazy... what ammunition was he using? |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 12:21:09 PM EDT
[#2]
Gotta be the ammo...
seriously I cannot imagine any other explanation for the bullet yawing immediately after leaving the barrel other then the bullet being undersized. Someone with more know-how needs to chime in, and I'd love to hear what Smith has been saying about it. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 12:28:29 PM EDT
[#3]
I apologize I meant keyholing. He has used all kinds. It still key holes. It's weird, SW can't figure it out. My hypothesis is that the modification to the trigger is creating a timing issue on rapid fire that bullets are running into each other.
If he pauses 1 sec and fires no keyholing occurs. We are all stumped. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 12:34:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I apologize I meant keyholing. He has used all kinds. It still key holes. It's weird, SW can't figure it out. My hypothesis is that the modification to the trigger is creating a timing issue on rapid fire that bullets are running into each other. If he pauses 1 sec and fires no keyholing occurs. We are all stumped. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 12:46:40 PM EDT
[#5]
The full upper has been replaced twice by SW and it still happens.
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Posted: 6/16/2017 12:51:13 PM EDT
[#6]
Try that upper on a different lower, Not that I think it will change anything! But it will definitely tell you that its still the upper.......
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Posted: 6/16/2017 12:55:05 PM EDT
[#7]
While no expert on this issue, I can't imagine the trigger causing this issue. So...S&W provides a new upper with the same results? Different ammo yields the same problem? Just for grins why not attach someone else's lower and see what happens? The "eliminate all possibilities" method would then indicate that both S&W barrels are defective if the experiment with another lower yields the same results...which sounds nearly impossible.
The apparent fact that the problem isn't evident when slow firing but present when rapid firing is beyond my comprehension. Have the new/replacement upper(s) had the same muzzle device installed or did they come with another factory muzzle device? |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 1:11:40 PM EDT
[#8]
I just spoke to him on the phone. He said his upper has been put on another lower and it will still keyhole. (I didn't know he tried this). He says the keyholing happens on all ammo, but a lot more on federal.
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Posted: 6/16/2017 1:20:49 PM EDT
[#9]
Pretty messed up if this is all true. Which I have no reason to doubt it is atm. I know the idea of spending money to diagnose a problem on a brand new upper is not ideal, but maybe he should take it to a reputable gun smith and see if they can't just do a once over to see if they notice anything amiss. Maybe the barrel twist is messed up somewhere or it was machined incorrectly. Have to say the odds of getting two new uppers and them doing the exact same thing is very odd. I would definitely pony up the little money it would probably cost and have a reputable gun smith take a look at it before trying to get yet another upper.
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Posted: 6/16/2017 1:25:12 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just spoke to him on the phone. He said his upper has been put on another lower and it will still keyhole. (I didn't know he tried this). He says the keyholing happens on all ammo, but a lot more on federal. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 1:40:09 PM EDT
[#11]
I'll let him know, that makes sense.
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Posted: 6/16/2017 2:29:17 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I apologize I meant keyholing. He has used all kinds. It still key holes. It's weird, SW can't figure it out. My hypothesis is that the modification to the trigger is creating a timing issue on rapid fire that bullets are running into each other. If he pauses 1 sec and fires no keyholing occurs. We are all stumped. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 2:45:34 PM EDT
[#13]
Is this the factory muzzle device? Is it the exact same muzzle device on both uppers?
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Posted: 6/16/2017 2:49:58 PM EDT
[#14]
Am I wrong here? Isn't the bbl the only component that effects bullet stabilization?
Other than shitty or mismatched ammo, that's all I know of. I'm far from an expert though. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 2:51:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is this the factory muzzle device? Is it the exact same muzzle device on both uppers? Overlooked that. 
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Posted: 6/16/2017 2:53:14 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Try that upper on a different lower, Not that I think it will change anything! But it will definitely tell you that its still the upper....... |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 2:54:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is this the factory muzzle device? Is it the exact same muzzle device on both uppers? |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 2:55:07 PM EDT
[#18]
if you're going to post a video at least start with a clean target and an controlled rate of fire.
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Posted: 6/16/2017 2:56:50 PM EDT
[#19]
Yes, barrel, muzzle device and bullet. One of those is badly out of spec.
Can we get a pic of the markings on the barrel and the markings on the ammunition? A pic of the inside of the muzzle device would be good as well. As for OP's idea that the bullets might be running into each other it ought to be obvious that if the velocity of the projectiles is even vaguely similar then they cannot run into each other. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 3:01:33 PM EDT
[#20]
My bet is on the MD, as mentioned.
Most likely shared between uppers. I had a comp on an SKS 20+ years ago that the bullets were striking. Very apparent immediately, the ping and lead splatter were horrible. One of those clamp on set screw type. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 3:04:11 PM EDT
[#21]
 Smith & Wesson M&P sport Is he shooting .204" Ruger out of it? Or shooting .223" out of a .300" Blackout? |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 3:05:57 PM EDT
[#22]
Like the others said it has to be the barrel or muzzle device if its happening with all brands of ammunition. My only guess is an area of the chamber or bore is non concentric, or the round is skimming the inside of the muzzle device on its way out.
Definitely a head scratcher since its happened with both upper receivers. Bad batch of barrels maybe.... |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 3:07:39 PM EDT
[#23]
 Smith & Wesson M&P sport keyholing User error driving while making a video and repeatedly looking @ the camera - while driving. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 3:10:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Annnddd.... he's burning up the bbls w/ a Slidefire when he's not driving around making videos:
 Las Vegas shooter Slide fire stock Warning |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 3:14:17 PM EDT
[#25]
So - he bought a Ruger:
 update Smith And Wesson Massachusetts assault weapons ban |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 3:16:54 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 6/16/2017 3:17:24 PM EDT
[#27]
My question is, is it keyholing when not using the slidefire stock in bump-fire mode?
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Posted: 6/16/2017 3:21:12 PM EDT
[#28]
It has to be user error, anyone that films videos in portrait is suspect.
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Posted: 6/16/2017 3:35:08 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Muzzle device looks different to me with a chrome/silver washer on the back. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/75355/Untitled-232034.JPG https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/styles/product_main/public/firearms/images/10202_01_lg_0.jpg?itok=lPA1ZDlv |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 4:25:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA0gcC5aWuk
Is he shooting .204" Ruger out of it? Or shooting .223" out of a .300" Blackout? I had a pair of AR10's...one .308 and one .243. While on a range trip I grabbed a magazine with .243 while zeroing in a new scope on the .308. I had the optic pretty much dialed in when I slapped the .243 mag in. My MOA at the 100 yard mark went from about 1.5" to 5". After 5 shots I realized my error. I was amazed at how little the POI changed. A couple of gunsmith acquaintances said there was little likelihood of barrel damage over this but inspected the .308 barrel anyway. No issue, no damage, and this has consistently been a 1.0 to 1.25 MOA rifle since. I mention my stupid mistake only to say that there was no keyholing on the target or other evidence of my snafu except that under close examination you could see the small difference in the entry hole. So...I wouldn't be surprised to see a .204 Ruger which is a smaller diameter difference than my .243/.308 snafu, yield a round bullet hole in the target. And obviously, I claim no absolute knowledge or experience with a .204 down the .223 rabbit hole. Besides, would you listen to the speculations of a guy who goes around shooting .243 ammo out of a .308? 
But...I did suggest the muzzle device first...so...do I win a prize if it's right?...LOL! But seriously, if all the info supplied up to this point from the OP is correct, it's a head scratcher. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 4:34:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Glad you didn't go the other way. Once had a customer chamber a .308" round in a .270" we'd sold him. He was understandably angry, but that's what happens when a teenager buys a rifle from a shoe salesman.
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Posted: 6/16/2017 4:36:42 PM EDT
[#32]
Is it possible Federal accidently loaded some 204 bullets in a batch of 223/556 brass? Micrometer time!!
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Posted: 6/16/2017 5:37:39 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is it possible Federal accidently loaded some 204 bullets in a batch of 223/556 brass? Micrometer time!! How about a close up of the muzzle device? I'm leaning towards this not being a case of two, or is it three, bad barrels from Smith and Wesson. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 5:39:55 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The full upper has been replaced twice by SW and it still happens. 
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Posted: 6/16/2017 5:45:51 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So THREE uppers exhibit the same problem. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 6:06:58 PM EDT
[#36]
He's shooting 500-600 rounds in full auto (bump fire) before they start keyholing, that is a detail that he is trying to hide
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Posted: 6/16/2017 6:09:23 PM EDT
[#37]
He is using a bump fire for several hundred rounds before the keyholes are starting to show up????????????????????????????
WTF! I own 3 M16 FA guns a Bumpfire gun and I would expect no less, Christ, what a waste of time! 
Shoot the damn gun normally before you start playing with toys to be bad ass.., if I am actually now understanding what is going on, you have wasted S&W time as well as those that are trying to help. I know, this is not GD, but that is where this thread NEEDS to be! |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 6:24:44 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is everything else cycling correctly? Fail to feeds happening fail to eject, bolt lock back on empty? I have seen a undergassed gun keyhole bullets before, just want to make sure all other systems are working correctly. I have also seen a certain lots of barrels chambered incorrectly cause keyholeing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is everything else cycling correctly? Fail to feeds happening fail to eject, bolt lock back on empty? I have seen a undergassed gun keyhole bullets before, just want to make sure all other systems are working correctly. I have also seen a certain lots of barrels chambered incorrectly cause keyholeing. Quoted:
I apologize I meant keyholing. He has used all kinds. It still key holes. It's weird, SW can't figure it out. My hypothesis is that the modification to the trigger is creating a timing issue on rapid fire that bullets are running into each other. If he pauses 1 sec and fires no keyholing occurs. We are all stumped. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 6:42:36 PM EDT
[#39]
Could he be cramming 5.45x39mm in there & expecting it to work? Or is he just getting free bbls after burning them via bumpfire?
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Posted: 6/16/2017 6:49:21 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How could an undergassed gun affect bullets keyholing in any way? You can completely shut the gas off, and the bolt just stays locked, no keyholing. There had to be another reason said gun was keyholing, not related to being undergassed. Otherwise, you could recreate this with an adjustable gas block, which you cant. Literally impossible. Change your hypothesis, because it's incorrect. 
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Posted: 6/16/2017 6:51:07 PM EDT
[#41]
And this is why I put so much precaution in to my post stating that "If what you are stating is true..."
Seriously I am so jaded this is how I think. But yeah I am going with your buddy owes S&W some money for the "free" barrels he seems to be burning up at this point. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 7:58:20 PM EDT
[#42]
I apologize for not commenting for a little while. He said he will come on here and talk to you guys so he can tell you exactly what has or hasn't done. I believe he hasn't used his bump stock on the new barrel. He told me he was using, Perfecta Tula steel, Federal m855 62g less than 500 rounds.
If anyone lives in Michigan he would be glad to show anyone. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 8:08:07 PM EDT
[#43]
The common denominator would seem to be your buddy burns out bbls, and blames everyone else on YouTube. 1st he blames his bump fire stock manufacturer, then blames S&W.
His muzzle device is suspect as well. How often does he clean it? What is it? Who made it? Why, if he's having key holing issues, does he not just leave the factory flash hider on there? Has he tried this muzzle device on his Ruger? |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 8:57:53 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The common denominator would seem to be your buddy burns out bbls, and blames everyone else on YouTube. 1st he blames his bump fire stock manufacturer, then blames S&W. His muzzle device is suspect as well. How often does he clean it? What is it? Who made it? Why, if he's having key holing issues, does he not just leave the factory flash hider on there? Has he tried this muzzle device on his Ruger? |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 8:58:39 PM EDT
[#45]
 [/img]
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Posted: 6/16/2017 11:13:32 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Annnddd.... he's burning up the bbls w/ a Slidefire when he's not driving around making videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3V_RrRDNVAI'd like to know how many continuous rounds he's fired at one time and how many rounds total? I mean guys take $20,000 registered m16s to the range and blast the shit out of them all the time, a barrels gotta last a while, even on full auto. I've got a bumpfire stock on a couple guns. The one I shoot the most is just a 11.5" (+5.5 fh) model 1 sales unlined barrel. I've fired at least 2 drums back to back and I normally dump my 5 mag load out. I haven't even cleaned it since I got the bumpfire stock. Probably 2 years and a thousand rounds of tula and it still shoots fine. |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 11:35:38 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I apologize for not commenting for a little while. He said he will come on here and talk to you guys so he can tell you exactly what has or hasn't done. I believe he hasn't used his bump stock on the new barrel. He told me he was using, Perfecta Tula steel, Federal m855 62g less than 500 rounds. If anyone lives in Michigan he would be glad to show anyone. ETA: I'll be in Clinton and Ingham counties next week. Where in Michigan? |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 11:58:35 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has to be barrel related. It takes a bullet at 3000 fps about .0005 seconds to leave the barrel. It is physically impossible to pull the trigger that fast. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I apologize I meant keyholing. He has used all kinds. It still key holes. It's weird, SW can't figure it out. My hypothesis is that the modification to the trigger is creating a timing issue on rapid fire that bullets are running into each other. If he pauses 1 sec and fires no keyholing occurs. We are all stumped. |
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Posted: 6/17/2017 7:34:40 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA0gcC5aWuk
Is he shooting .204" Ruger out of it? Or shooting .223" out of a .300" Blackout? I am in the Flint/Saginaw/Bay City area in Michigan with access to a 200 yard rifle range. PM me if you want to get together on this. 2Hut8 |
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Posted: 6/17/2017 8:03:25 AM EDT
[#50]
Not even enough common sense to wear a seatbelt while driving and filming...
This guy doesn't belong behind a semi automatic anything. Goes to show how ridiculous customer service has gotten...Smith and Wesson takes care of this guy, who obviously doesn't know anything about anything... (I know their customer service, I've used it - top tier.) They paid his shipping both ways (on multiple barrels) Because he's an IDIOT. His solution...bash Smith and Wesson...this guy needs to go back to airsoft. ETA: 1 Post MaGee posted this thread. |
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