Hey all, long time lurker first time poster. I'm reaching out because I cannot find anything on the web except for 1-2 posts of people with my same issue; but no actual fix for the problem. I recently purchased this folding stock adapter and it seems the buffer is getting mangled by the buffer pin. It looks like someone took a jackhammer to them both. I've not yet fired the rifle; only racked the BGC about 25 times to make sure nothing was hanging up. Upon doing more research, I found that Law Tactical sells an enhanced buffer pin, but that its not compatible on their Gen 3 kits. I've written them 2 emails over the past week with my concerns and they've told me they would look into it. Still have not heard back from them. I have no issue with fitment as it seems to function as advertised except for my issue. I'm using a PSA complete upper on my build. It features a Mil-spec upper with a Mil-spec M16 BCG, and the included buffer/spring/pin that came with the kit. Any info/help/advice would be greatly appreciated. I have a few pictures, but I don't know how to attach them. Thanks
John

Below the submit button, there is a bar that says "click here to attach an image from your media library" . Hit the button and you can select the images or, if you're using a hosting site (Flickr, photbucket, ect) you'll have to use the picture link to the right of X2 and left of the Youtube link...

I don't seem to have anything under the submit button, but I will try to provide a link:
http://imageshack.com/a/img924/4781/2FDQ1c.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/2466/vtQAjt.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/2309/ZOg4dK.jpg

And just to be clear. Both the buffer AND pin were new when installed. And gun has never been fired. Only racked the BCG ~25-30 times to make sure nothing was obstructing it.

I don't have this fabled option either. Maybe it's because I'm using mobile?  I'd love that option.

It looks like you have something out of spec. I have one that has 300 plus rounds and who knows how many racks though it. mines not even close to looking like that. The Buffer shouldn't move around that much. Can you hear the carrier button hit the buffer when you close the hinge?

Easy upgrade is An HK 416 buffer retainer from HK PRO

I definitely think something is out of spec. I have the buffer tube disassembled at the moment, in hopes to figure this out before I do any more damage to the buffer and pin. It's almost like the adapter they send for the back of the BCG is not long enough and not allowing the buffer to stop on the back of the BCG and is hitting the pin first. Short of taking off a few thousandths from edges of the buffer, allowing it to stop farther forward and seat against the adapter, I'm at a loss at the moment. The main reason I emailed them was to find out if this was an issue they've heard of. I would have assumed the cost of this product, and the precision to detail it demands, that it would work as a simple bolt-on without any modification. "Assumed" being the operative word... I don't want to point fingers and knock their product at all; just trying to find some info from someone who may have had similar issues or suggestions for a possible simple fix. Or maybe I got a lemon.

Your buffer tube looks notched?

Buffer tube is notched, yes. Possibly screw it in another turn?

Maybe the buffer is out of spec? But the tube looks ground down and notched. That's not normal. I'd check the buffer first and I can measure my carrier button when I get a chance to compare to yours if you have calipers.

i have one on a DD MK18 that was factory installed by DD.

when i look at mine, the back adapter in the BCG is sticking out far enough that when i close the LT hinge, i pushes the buffer back slightly.

i'm wondering if it is possible that your BCG is slightly out of spec and not long enough by just a few hundredths that the adapter is not able to push back the buffer off the pin when it is closed.

if you have calipers, measure the length of your bolt carrier (minus the bolt) and when i get home i will measure mine that i know is good and we can compare.

MB

Buffer tube looks like one I would use for a piston gun like POF makes. They can throw things off a bit, just a thought, I have no experience with the folding stock but I had a pof buffer tube gimme some problems on a build.

I have a pistol lower that uses a KAK Shockwave tube and brace running the LAW 3rd Gen.  Inside the tube is a standard carbine buffer and spring.  Internal dimensions for the buffer components are supposed to be the same as an AR15 carbine tube.  I use this lower for a 5.56 pistol and 300BO pistol suppressed interchangeably before I get another to run the two separately.  Mine has quite a few rounds of both calibers fired with it, and I don't have any buffer face or retention pin marks.  I just checked upon seeing this post.

I lean toward the assessment already stated of the buffer coming too far forward for some reason.

I had the same problem with the Law Gen 3 folder on my AR9 pistol build.  My fix was to install a spacer I made out of a C clip I found at a local hardware store that fit snuggly over the bolt extension, effectively making the BCG a little longer.  The spacer was about .040" thick and took care of the problem.  I had to file down the edges a little to make it match the bolt extension profile.  I posted this on the forum a while back but can't find it in the archives.  

Some folks also suggested milling the the outer face of the buffer like you mentioned earlier.  Another possible solution was to use an offset buffer pin available for the same problem (just do a web search for one).  The last solution was just to take out the buffer pin and spring.

Guess mil spec goes out the window when we start modding our ARs with aftermarket parts.  Here's a couple of pictures of my fix.  Has worked fine with no problems for the last 1000-1500 rounds.

Hope this helps,
Pete

tacticalmdic450: I don't personally have a caliper, but I have access to one. Will share that info when I can get it.

mmonte: I don't see why changing the buffer tube and/or using one without a notch would matter. The retaining pin would still be in the same location no matter the tube that was used, right?

ARTNC10: This is a pistol build .223/5.56 and I am using a standard carbine buffer and spring.

azdover: That looks great. The only thing I see different on the BCG extention is yours shows a smallish notch to 'accept' the c-clip you installed. Mine doesn't seem to have it. Theres no indentation before the first O-ring, and I'm not sure it would stay there and not slide forward to potentially damage the O-ring. Pics included.

http://imageshack.com/a/img923/6812/OtDY4a.png
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/6959/DHuCdL.png

My extension is the same as yours.  It doesn't have an indentation.  Probably just an optical illusion based on lighting.  Like I said, I've got over a thousand rounds on the mod with no problems and that is in an AR 9MM that I have fired with and without a suppressor.  9MM is supposedly has a more recoil and is harder on parts than other DI and piston operated ARs.  At least according to the internet, so it must be true.

Awesome. Thank you for the info as this seems to be a quick, yet permanent fix. Honestly glad it doesn't seem that I'm the only one with this issue.

azdover, that's a fairly ingeniously simple fix there.  I guess this just points out how the "milspec" term between different components can start to creep outside of the term "precision".  Good on you for coming up with what looks like an elegantly simple idea.

It looks like one would have to be careful not to go too thick on that added spacer as there doesn't appear to be much clearance on that locking arm...if that's the right terminology...when the locking arm is in its non-firing, pivot-open condition.  I could a slight too fat spacer jamming the locking bar...if I'm looking at this correctly.  Do you see it that way azdover?

The locking bar interfaces with a rubber washer that is 1/8" thick. It also only pivots in the way when the stock folder is open so it will still function properly with the mods in this thread

Just an FYI, I think you have to be a paying member to have that option.

True, but that's not what I was curious about.  I'm sure it's just a parts description semantics thing.  Let me try it this way.  I'm talking about the provided LAW T. spacer/adapter that plugs into the back of the BCG.  It looks like "az" inserted a spacer clip against the spacer flange that faces those two O-rings that provide friction in the back of the BCG.  If the owner supplied spacer clip is a bit too fat...like up to the edge of the closest o-ring...the locking bar I mentioned might strike the bigger 1/8" o-ring at the rear that you mentioned.  This shouldn't be an issue when the extension tube is closed for firing, as the locking bar is obviously pushed out of the way to the left.  With the LAW BCG spacer set back just a little more than necessary, it seems it wouldn't let the locking bar come to its intended resting position behind that 1/8" o-ring you mention.  Am I right in assuming the locking bar is just there to stop the BCG in case the gun is fired with the extension tube pivoted open or at least not totally closed?  If it is then you'd want to make sure you spaced out "az's" modification only to the point that it would still let the locking bar drop behind the 1/8" o-ring.

Is that confusing enough?...LOL!  And, I may be looking at the components here all wrong.

The catch is moved out of the path of the carrier and button only when the stock is closed. Even with his mod the spring in the catch is strong enough to stop the bolt if fired that it would catch on the second step in the carrier button. It's the one directly after the double retention o-rings. I believe the catch is there to keep the bolt carrier in the forward most position while the stock is closed. Then it can be deployed without having to push the bolt home then fold the stock out.

I think my fix for my particular weapon falls under the "Even A Blind Squirrel Finds A Nut Every Now And Then" category.  Just thought it might help john84gn with his problem.  It's kind of an apples to oranges solution since I was having the problem with a 9MM AR with a NFA upper and a NFA Glock lower.

I also have a 556 pistol with the Law Gen 3 lower.  No problems with a dinged up buffer pin or buffer.  I compared some of the components on the two of them and most of the parts have the same dimensions.  In particular, the 9MM bolt and the 556 bolt carrier are the same length, which is about 6.65".  I even put the bolt extension with the spacer in my 556 pistol and it cleared Dodge223's locking arm by about .005" as far as I can measure.  I would have used a smaller spacer if I could have found one, but the C clip was the thinnest available and seems fairly strong since it is made of spring steel.  I'm pretty sure you don't want to fire the weapon with the stock in the folded position since it says "Close Before Firing" on the back of the folder screwed into the lower, but that's just me

Update:

So I finally shot the weapon. Put ~200 rounds thru it. I used the modification suggested from azdover. Gun shot perfectly. No feed issues, dry-fires, buffer issues or anything. I even mag dumped the last 2 magazines. I changed the buffer pin to a new one before shooting the gun. The marks on the buffer were existing from initially trying to figure out the problem. Note there are no marks or indentations behind the new buffer pin showing the buffer is in fact touching the back if the LT extender on the BCG. I've since ordered a Spikes Tactical ST-T2 Heavy buffer and V Seven titanium buffer retainer. I wish I could attach pictures, but maybe backbencher can help me out again.

In this pic, it shows the buffer and pin. Note how the center shows marks from the LT BCG extender meaning it is in fact touching it correctly. Also note the buffer pin is somewhat shiny. I'll get back to this...
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/3563/m44lBM.jpg

These pictures show the snap ring I installed on the LT extender.
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/6861/A42PDO.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img924/3967/BLjY7X.jpg

I did not file down the 'ears' of the snap ring. When I mocked it up installed in the BCG, I noticed they did not stick out past the body of the BCG so I decided to leave it alone.
As shown in this pic:
http://imageshack.com/a/img922/2024/Q0mxxt.jpg

Now back to the snap ring... I noticed the bottom of the snap ring was somewhat shiny itself:
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/237/U7CrTg.jpg

Upon looking at it I realized that this is what was hitting the buffer retaining pin and causing it to wear some. I simply rotated the snap ring to line up with the groove on the bottom of the BCG and it works flawlessly.
http://imageshack.com/a/img922/2024/Q0mxxt.jpg

I hope this post helps someone else out, as it did for me. Thanks for all the recommendations from you all. FWIW, the snap ring I used is 5/8".

Quoted:  Update:

So I finally shot the weapon. Put ~200 rounds thru it. I used the modification suggested from azdover. Gun shot perfectly. No feed issues, dry-fires, buffer issues or anything. I even mag dumped the last 2 magazines. I changed the buffer pin to a new one before shooting the gun. The marks on the buffer were existing from initially trying to figure out the problem. Note there are no marks or indentations behind the new buffer pin showing the buffer is in fact touching the back if the LT extender on the BCG. I've since ordered a Spikes Tactical ST-T2 Heavy buffer and V Seven titanium buffer retainer. I wish I could attach pictures, but maybe backbencher can help me out again.

In this pic, it shows the buffer and pin. Note how the center shows marks from the LT BCG extender meaning it is in fact touching it correctly. Also note the buffer pin is somewhat shiny. I'll get back to this...



These pictures show the snap ring I installed on the LT extender.





I did not file down the 'ears' of the snap ring. When I mocked it up installed in the BCG, I noticed they did not stick out past the body of the BCG so I decided to leave it alone.
As shown in this pic:



Now back to the snap ring... I noticed the bottom of the snap ring was somewhat shiny itself:



Upon looking at it I realized that this is what was hitting the buffer retaining pin and causing it to wear some. I simply rotated the snap ring to line up with the groove on the bottom of the BCG and it works flawlessly.



I hope this post helps someone else out, as it did for me. Thanks for all the recommendations from you all. FWIW, the snap ring I used is 5/8".

@backbencher: Thank you sir. But upon looking at the post I realize the last picture was supposed to be this one:
http://imageshack.com/a/img924/6963/eILLxQ.jpg

My apologies on the confusion.

Since I've been shooting my 300BO pistol setup some more since this post started, let me share some info that might shed some light on the Law folder.  I started experiencing cycling issues and found the spacer was nicking the buffer pin.  It was slight, but it was occurring when obviously it shouldn't.  When I removed the buffer pin, the gun cycled flawlessly.  It was apparent that my issue isn't the same as azdozer, as my spacer makes appropriate contact with the face of the buffer.  It didn't need further spacing between the LAW spacer and buffer.

I talked to Zach at LAW T., and he walked me through some ideas.  This lead to finding more than one contributing issue.  I tracked down the fact that I had an unusually tall pin on the buffer pin body.  It wasn't that noticeable by itself, but when compared to one of my other pins, it was definitely tall.  So...I simply ground and smoothed the pin extension down to a more proper height.  The gun cycled more consistenly...but...still some contact between the spacer and the pin.

Further inspection prompted me to compare some other BCG's and uppers from my other guns.  I had bought a Fail Zero BCG to put in this Blackout but was running a spare nitride BCG that I had...can't tell or remember if it's an AIM or PSA.  The spacer seems to fit into the back of the nitride BCG just fine with some snugness...but...when I install the spacer into the FZ or one of my other BCG's, it's tight...not drive it in with a hammer tight...but much tighter than the spare BCG I was running.  Also observed was a slightly tighter fit between the BCG body and the upper with my other BCG's compared to the spare.  As the BCG moves toward the rear/buffer, the spare BCG has discernably more "slack" in the upper...not horrible but there.  The FZ and other nitride BCG's have less of this slack in the upper channel.

So, here's the summary for my scenario.  The LAW Tactical folder works great if your buffer pin extension isn't overly tall.  Also you want very little "droop" in the BCG as it travels back in the upper channel.  That "droop" also applies to the spacer inserted in the rear opening of the BCG.  If the BCG and spacer have too much slack that allows them to droop, one of them can scrape the buffer pin.  All of this is probably due to tolerance stacking.  Now, that spare BCG of mine works fine, but it apparently will not be a good candidate for the folder.  The FZ BCG is in the gun now and has performed perfectly as I develop loads for the gun.

In azdozer's case, it's apparently a different scenario of not enough spacer and buffer face interface, and the circlip looks like the fix there.  It also strikes me as possible that positioning the LAW spacer further back with that circlip helps with any potential "droop" as it might cause the BCG, spacer, and buffer face to "square up" to each other a little more precisely...if that makes sense.

Bottom line, I love the LT folder.  If you know ahead of time what these small issues are that are probably due to manufacturing tolerance stacking in some BCG's, they can be easily remedied either with this circlip method or having a BCG with tighter tolerances.