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Posted: 2/24/2017 8:48:17 PM EDT
[#1]
Looks waaay too complicated to me.
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Posted: 2/24/2017 8:50:24 PM EDT
[#2]
I remember that- cost him his job.
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Posted: 2/24/2017 8:54:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I remember that- cost him his job. |
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Posted: 2/25/2017 12:55:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i tried the bushing mod last night and the trigger felt good in semi and echo but the selector would not go into safe 
i'm going to try to take a little off the OD today to see if that changes anything still trying to figure out a way to shorten the travel to activate the echo mode  Hey viper, when you could not get the safety to engage was the grip, detent and spring installed on the rifle? The detent and spring centers the safety lever, so if it was off center it may have caused the safety not to work properly... |
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Posted: 2/26/2017 7:31:50 AM EDT
[#5]
I think I have another source for bushings: nylon screws. I played around with a few different diameters grinding one down with a dremel and the original seems to work the best without causing early activation (at least with dryfire). I am using a 1/4" x 3" bolt. Once you cut the threads off, the solid portion has a hole in the center that needs to be bored out a bit to fit on the echo, but the diameter seems to be perfect. One bolt could probably produce 10 bushings easily.
I'm trying a few different modifications today for a 22lr setup including the bushing mod. I tried yesterday with a stock CMMG 22 auto sear trip without much luck. I'll put my modified trip in today and see how it goes. |
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Posted: 2/26/2017 2:27:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hey viper, when you could not get the safety to engage was the grip, detent and spring installed on the rifle? The detent and spring centers the safety lever, so if it was off center it may have caused the safety not to work properly... the second bushing i made out of a stainless steel set screw with a smaller od seems to be working. i can still "feel" it moving the selector to safe but it functions fine. my echo has the old style trigger lock and i think that was why it didn't like the ".22" bushing. changing the spring for the trigger lock has really seemed to make "echo" mode easier , at least in dry firing. i still need to pick up some green springs to try out but my trigger feels really good at the moment. i really need to get out and get the new upper sighted in and do a few test mag dumps with the trigger , i think she's going to run good 
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Posted: 2/27/2017 2:37:29 PM EDT
[#7]
Went to the range this morning and did a bunch of fast double taps. With American eagle XM193 and Tula 223. No issues with tula right about a 2pm eject. But the XM193 was cycling to fast and I got a malfunction about once every 8 rounds or so always on the 2nd round. Since I was only doing doubles the malfunction was ejecting the 1st round completely as u can see in the pics below. It would feed the 2nd round fine but catch the 1st case. XM193 was ejecting about 12:30-1pm. I have a h2 and h3 buffer I can try next time out. Need to get some more XM193 and m855 to make sure my final setup works with everything. Hopefully I can get it 100% without an adjustable gas block.
Setup .078" gas port 16inch hbar upper red springco spring h buffer lightened full auto carrier(9.34oz complete) Hyperfire green springs/bushing http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/matthewjbooth/echo%20trigger/image1-2.jpg http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/matthewjbooth/echo%20trigger/image2_1.jpg |
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Posted: 2/27/2017 10:01:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Went to the range this morning and did a bunch of fast double taps. With American eagle XM193 and Tula 223. No issues with tula right about a 2pm eject. But the XM193 was cycling to fast and I got a malfunction about once every 8 rounds or so always on the 2nd round. Since I was only doing doubles the malfunction was ejecting the 1st round completely as u can see in the pics below. It would feed the 2nd round fine but catch the 1st case. XM193 was ejecting about 12:30-1pm. I have a h2 and h3 buffer I can try next time out. Need to get some more XM193 and m855 to make sure my final setup works with everything. Hopefully I can get it 100% without an adjustable gas block.
Setup .078" gas port 16inch hbar upper red springco spring h buffer lightened full auto carrier(9.34oz complete) Hyperfire green springs/bushing http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/matthewjbooth/echo%20trigger/image1-2.jpg http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/matthewjbooth/echo%20trigger/image2_1.jpg 
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Posted: 2/27/2017 10:30:11 PM EDT
[#9]
I would probably replace the ejector spring. In case you don't know, the selector spring and ejector spring are the same. So you can swap them if you need one but don't have a spare.
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Posted: 2/28/2017 1:40:22 AM EDT
[#10]
Thanks viper.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would probably replace the ejector spring. In case you don't know, the selector spring and ejector spring are the same. So you can swap them if you need one but don't have a spare. I didn't know that. Thanks for the info, will do exactly that. |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 12:00:51 PM EDT
[#11]
just got my email and shipping number ordered the green springs from hiperfire floating on clouds my friends 9 mos later!!!!!!
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Posted: 3/2/2017 1:46:48 PM EDT
[#12]
this is even more painful having a tracking number knowing they sent it out and not seeing progress from departed post office on its way to origin facility since 2:30 yeaterday
edit ... i feel like a mental patient or an expecting parent ... maybe a cross between both or actually expecting parents probably are mental patients |
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Posted: 3/4/2017 10:13:59 AM EDT
[#13]
ok guys its here and it was worth the wait now had anyone else had to pull the charging handle slightly to get the receivers closed bc they didnt take enough off of the bolt carrier, it performs nicely but the hammer is able to drop slightly early and i think bc of the motion of the timing it will be ok, and the bolt is going into full battery after this bc of the extra play in the sear. it was the absolute minimum i could take off of my bolt carrier. green hiperfire springs are arriving today if anyone wants me to try things out i can tinker then just go out back my house to try it out
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Posted: 3/4/2017 10:18:31 AM EDT
[#14]
If it won't close unless you pull the charging handle I would probably take a fraction more off. You want to make sure the carrier is fully seating and not being held back by the trigger block.
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Posted: 3/4/2017 1:16:32 PM EDT
[#15]
I've modified two bolt carriers on my milling machine so far and both turned our excellent. First I scribe a line an 1-1/2" up from the bottom of the bolt carrier on either side of the buffer retaining pin slot. Then I clamp it in a vise and rotate the front end up 48° from horizontal. From this position, from when the end mill touches the tip of the sear trip surface, you remove approximately 0.040" or until the cut line meets the scribed line. The modified carriers match up perfectly side by side with Fostech's carrier.
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Posted: 3/4/2017 3:40:04 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've modified two bolt carriers on my milling machine so far and both turned our excellent. First I scribe a line an 1-1/2" up from the bottom of the bolt carrier on either side of the buffer retaining pin slot. Then I clamp it in a vise and rotate the front end up 48° from horizontal. From this position, from when the end mill touches the tip of the sear trip surface, you remove approximately 0.040" or until the cut line meets the scribed line. The modified carriers match up perfectly side by side with Fostech's carrier. Making an identical bevel defeats the purpose of modifying a carrier doesn't it? Or are you getting a lower Echo activation pull weight w/ the modified carriers compared to w/ the Fostech carrier? |
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Posted: 3/4/2017 4:57:45 PM EDT
[#17]
ok the green toggle springs i just used those and the hammer doesnt wamt to fall now does this need the red hammer spring that came with that kit and i think the echo toggle springs are stronger than the green ones can anyone conform
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Posted: 3/4/2017 5:36:00 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ok the green toggle springs i just used those and the hammer doesnt wamt to fall now does this need the red hammer spring that came with that kit and i think the echo toggle springs are stronger than the green ones can anyone conform I don't believe the red spring will fit inside the Echo housing. You could possibly bend the included spring for slightly more force. Alternatively you could use one green and one original spring, but that leaves the spring power unbalanced. I'm not sure if that will cause problems or not. |
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Posted: 3/4/2017 6:56:08 PM EDT
[#19]
ty for the info im going to abandon the green springs all together the trigger is pretty good as it is with a custom carrier, i made a bushing but im not sure of the benefit and the selector is a little squishy anyone else notice that? i like a definitive click and im not getting that
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Posted: 3/4/2017 6:58:15 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ok the green toggle springs i just used those and the hammer doesnt wamt to fall now does this need the red hammer spring that came with that kit and i think the echo toggle springs are stronger than the green ones can anyone conform Are u sure you put the trigger back together correctly? If u flip the U cup posts the wrong way they can bind up against the disconnector and cause issues. I did this the first time and it bound up. The hyperfire springs should be in the outer most position against the sides of the lower and should not bind at all. When I put the green springs in the trigger I had no issues. |
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Posted: 3/4/2017 7:03:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ty for the info im going to abandon the green springs all together the trigger is pretty good as it is with a custom carrier, i made a bushing but im not sure of the benefit and the selector is a little squishy anyone else notice that? i like a definitive click and im not getting that Shoot the trigger as it came from fostech with the included carrier first then try changing stuff like the full auto carrier with the bevel, the bushing and different springs. U will feel a difference but good to try the trigger as it comes from fostech as a baseline for all changes. |
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Posted: 3/4/2017 7:16:50 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are u sure you put the trigger back together correctly? If u flip the U cup posts the wrong way they can bind up against the disconnector and cause issues. I did this the first time and it bound up. The hyperfire springs should be in the outer most position against the sides of the lower and should not bind at all. When I put in the green springs in the trigger I had no issues. |
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Posted: 3/4/2017 7:17:01 PM EDT
[#23]
Swapped ejector spring and bought/installed and setup a jp a2 adjustable gas block. Should have done that a long time ago. Runs great now, super smooth. Doubles are fast with carbine buffer, going to buy some 855 and visit rapid fire friendly range for final setup fine tuning. When I do I will try and get some video.
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Posted: 3/4/2017 7:17:05 PM EDT
[#24]
i shot a few mags through it with my cut carrier to start everything else standard didnt really take time to feel anything, then tried the green springs and they didnt let the hammer fall. was grinning ear to ear felt awesome not like shooting true f/a but closest im going to get with 2 kids to pay for but for tonight im done screwing arround back at it tomorrow edit ... yeah the springs were to the outside just too strong im guessing i had a bunch of slow hammer falls couple of hang ups and a bunch of only firing on release .. slow hammer fall that was with a cut carrier without the bushing
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Posted: 3/4/2017 7:21:00 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i shot a few mags through it with my cut carrier to start everything else standard didnt really take time to feel anything, then tried the green springs and they didnt let the hammer fall. was grinning ear to ear felt awesome not like shooting true f/a but closest im going to get with 2 kids to pay for but for tonight im done screwing arround back at it tomorrow Post a pick of the trigger from the top as it is with the green springs installed and the hammer fwd, so we can see how the cups are aligned. We should be able to see if it's correct or not. |
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Posted: 3/4/2017 7:29:29 PM EDT
[#26]
i took it back out already ill try it again tomorrow but the toggles were to the outside
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Posted: 3/4/2017 7:32:22 PM EDT
[#27]
i dont know why im complaining i had 10 cases in the air before the first one hit the ground
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Posted: 3/4/2017 7:59:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Here are some pics of frt and back hyperfire springs.
http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/matthewjbooth/echo%20trigger/hyperfire%20front.jpg http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/matthewjbooth/echo%20trigger/hyperfire%20back.jpg |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 6:50:15 AM EDT
[#29]
I got and installed my eco trigger last week. Test fired it this weekend and I'm not getting the bolt back to battery after firing. Keep having to bump the forward assist almost every round to be able to fire again. Any ideas? Thinking of modifying my carrier and trying it to see if its their carrier is the issue.
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Posted: 3/6/2017 9:06:12 AM EDT
[#30]
How old is your buffer spring? If it is too old and worn out it may not be able to overcome the force to depress the trigger lock/spring. U are using the echo trigger with the included fostech echo carrier correct?
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Posted: 3/6/2017 9:52:36 AM EDT
[#31]
yeah clean the chamber real good then without a round in ride the charging hamdle forward and see what you geti f theres an issue without a round measure the buffer spring the included carrier should give plenty of room
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Posted: 3/6/2017 12:10:18 PM EDT
[#32]
anyone think it could be bolt bounce?
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Posted: 3/6/2017 12:20:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
anyone think it could be bolt bounce? |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 1:23:54 PM EDT
[#34]
Oh boy do I have a bolt bounce out of battery story for you guys. I need to get my photos from this weekend together and contact Fostech and MVB industries before I post more.
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Posted: 3/6/2017 4:54:26 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Possibly, but normally bolt bounce shows up due to a dead hammer on the second shot. If it's just not closing on the first load cycle I would replace the spring. Service life for a stock carbine spring can be as little as 3,000 rounds. I've moved to almost all Damage Industries Enhanced and Sprinco springs as they should last longer than the gun. Damage claims 750,000 cycles. Sprinco 1,000,000+ cycles. Quote HistoryQuoted:
<strong>Quoted:</strong>
anyone think it could be bolt bounce? I didn't know about the 3000 round life. That explains a lot to me now. I changed springs in a couple carbines and solved problems, but really didn't know why. Now I am gonna buy a few more, just because..... |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 6:14:58 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh boy do I have a bolt bounce out of battery story for you guys. I need to get my photos from this weekend together and contact Fostech and MVB industries before I post more. i hope that black eye isnt literal i didnt think an ar could fire out of battery bc of the rotating bolt |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 6:18:02 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i hope that black eye isnt literal i didnt think an ar could fire out of battery bc of the rotating bolt |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 7:19:10 PM EDT
[#38]
ive herd of dirty firing pins causing this too jamming forward when they pick up the next round or causing slam fires
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Posted: 3/6/2017 9:29:36 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ive herd of dirty firing pins causing this too jamming forward when they pick up the next round or causing slam fires |
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Posted: 3/7/2017 1:04:34 AM EDT
[#40]
I got the email off to MVB industries tonight but I do not have the photos on photobucket yet. I have been trying to get both the ECHO and the BFS III to function without issues that would make them imo unusable on a defensive firearm (i.e stop hammer follow, work with a can, etc) I had the ECHO running well on my AR9 with the included 9mm MVB industries buffer 5.3 oz without a suppressor but it had double feeds with the suppressor attached in ECHO mode. I am using the MVB ARC 9mm stock which uses a specialized buffer and springs. MVB industries released a PC heavier buffer (8.5 oz) tungsten buffer a few weeks back that I thought would solve the problem with shooting suppressed in ECHO mode. I was able to test it on Saturday. I had one kaboom (out of battery) with the suppressor attached on first mag in ECHO mode. It was a small OOB and almost acted like a failure to eject but after you saw the bulge in the brass you knew what happened. I was not hurt and it did not do any damage to the lower or upper so I tried it without the suppressor and it happened again. this time a got a burn on my face (thank God for safety glasses!) and the my hand but nothing really bad. The mag was blown out but the lower and upper were okay. After that I decide it had to be something with the buffer so I removed the PC heavier and replaced it with the 9mm 5.3 oz buffer. At that point everything worked fine unsuppressed with the 9mm buffer in ECHO mode but I still had the double feed issue suppressed. I found out that the PC heavy buffer is SOLID tungsten so no reciprocating mass. I believe that was the problem. I wait for MVB industries to email me back on their thoughts but if that is the case i think the PC H buffer would be very dangerous to use in fast or full automatic triggers. I'll post photos of the OOB brass tomorrow but what do you guys think? AR9's have to have reciprocating mass to stop bolt bounce? This was my first and hopefully my last out of battery experience.
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Posted: 3/7/2017 2:35:46 AM EDT
[#41]
Its a carbine buffer spring with less than 200 rds on it. Rifle was working fine before trigger install. I did clean chamber and everything after first time testing but actually got worse. Was firing fine in semi and only not closing on eco mode. After cleaning its not closing on semi all the time now. Just a little bump on forward assist and then it goes bang.
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Posted: 3/7/2017 3:00:15 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its a carbine buffer spring with less than 200 rds on it. Rifle was working fine before trigger install. I did clean chamber and everything after first time testing but actually got worse. Was firing fine in semi and only not closing on eco mode. After cleaning its not closing on semi all the time now. Just a little bump on forward assist and then it goes bang. Are you using the carrier that came with the ECHO? Are you using the same bolt you were before you installed the ECHO? Have you checked the bolt for damage? Anything changed to the upper? Is it lubed? do you see any damage to the barrel extension? |
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Posted: 3/7/2017 10:59:06 AM EDT
[#43]
to the 9mm guy i did notice with my echo the hammer will drop with my cut carrier with the bcg a quarter inch out of battery i rode the charging hamdle back a little and it let the hammer fall on the way forward i didnt think anything of it bc of the timing thing where by the time the bcg is flying forward if the hammer drops then it should be in full battery by them maybe that heavy buffer slowed it down that much, try pulling the trigger with the charging handle pulled slightly back and then see if you need to adjust the cut on the bcg to be more aggressive on the 9mm is this a blowback conversion or an ar style? and did you have the sear lock installed? i think it will run without it in the other platforms just more like the bfs3 with the hammer follow. i never tried it with the fostech carrier
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Posted: 3/7/2017 11:06:02 AM EDT
[#44]
another thing real quick i dont want to get torn up in the gd so ill ask you guys what do you think of a home brew lube im experimenting with some mobile 1 full synthetic 2/3 or so lucas hd syn oil stabilizer couple ounces, atf 4 for the hydraulic properties and pentosin chf 202 equal parts the pentosin is hq power steering fluid for the detergent properties lmk what you think it males a nice consistency this stuff sticks to the metal and its all proven for the high heat and fast metal movements
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Posted: 3/7/2017 10:45:05 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
to the 9mm guy i did notice with my echo the hammer will drop with my cut carrier with the bcg a quarter inch out of battery i rode the charging hamdle back a little and it let the hammer fall on the way forward i didnt think anything of it bc of the timing thing where by the time the bcg is flying forward if the hammer drops then it should be in full battery by them maybe that heavy buffer slowed it down that much, try pulling the trigger with the charging handle pulled slightly back and then see if you need to adjust the cut on the bcg to be more aggressive on the 9mm is this a blowback conversion or an ar style? and did you have the sear lock installed? i think it will run without it in the other platforms just more like the bfs3 with the hammer follow. i never tried it with the fostech carrier Its a QC10 lower made specifically for 9mm. AR9's are different then the standard AR15 because they are blow back on the bolt. The bolt is different from the normal Ar15 because it is a solid bolt which does not have a carrier/ bolt setup like all other Ar's. I had to dremel my NFA 9mm bolt to get the fit for the ECHO trigger lock and yes it is installed. The cut I made on the back of the bolt is very tight and the trigger will not move until the bolt is in battery. Hence why I think bounce is the problem and imo the photos of the brass suggest bolt bounce too. Bounce bolt does happen on AR9's and I have been lucky not to have it happen until the other day. You have to have the dead blow hammer buffer 
I had a talk with MVB industries today and he believes it was bolt bounce too. He is going to create a prototpe PCH 8.5 oz buffer that takes weights to stop that from happening and I think that will solve the problem. Until then I will have to use the 9mm buffer. Some great guys over at MVB industries! Here are some pics of the brass and other stuff 
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Posted: 3/7/2017 11:35:19 PM EDT
[#46]
Rsell,
With regards to the double feeds, maybe it's worth trying a hydraulic buffer. The hydraulic buffer is slower on the return than a regular spring, and that alone might stop that particular malfunction. There aren't many things that I know of that a hydraulic buffer fixes, but it does slow down the return to battery. I'm just shooting from the hip here; hope it's helpful. G. |
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Posted: 3/8/2017 6:11:03 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you using the carrier that came with the ECHO? Are you using the same bolt you were before you installed the ECHO? Have you checked the bolt for damage? Anything changed to the upper? Is it lubed? do you see any damage to the barrel extension? Yes using their carrier, same bolt, nothing else has changed. Cleaned chamber good and lubed 2x. Noticed bolt doesn't move freely in carrier, might have to look into that. |
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Posted: 3/8/2017 11:33:44 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes using their carrier, same bolt, nothing else has changed. Cleaned chamber good and lubed 2x. Noticed bolt doesn't move freely in carrier, might have to look into that. I shoot all my ARs very wet. Some carriers can be stickying at first with a bolt. It might need some more rounds through it but I would measure the carrier diameter for the bolt and check the gas rings too. If you have another bolt laying around I would try that too. It's odd because normally what you are describing is a spring problem. Do you have another spring to try for comparison? |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 1:47:36 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I shoot all my ARs very wet. Some carriers can be stickying at first with a bolt. It might need some more rounds through it but I would measure the carrier diameter for the bolt and check the gas rings too. If you have another bolt laying around I would try that too. It's odd because normally what you are describing is a spring problem. Do you have another spring to try for comparison? Yeah was thinking it might be needing a little breakin. I need to check the gas rings and try to see why the bolt is so tight. I do have another spring to try if that doesn't work. |
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Posted: 3/11/2017 8:51:36 PM EDT
[#50]
Does this work on the M&P 15-22?
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