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Posted: 9/3/2015 10:05:18 PM EDT
[#1]
You would see no measurable difference in the accuracy between the two.
ETA - spending money on GOOD ammo over standard ball ammo will show a difference more than anything else - when all else is equal. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 10:11:47 PM EDT
[#2]
It's been done many times, they usually take a rifle that has not been free floated ;shoot it, then free float the barrel. Usually there is a small improvement after it has been floated.
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Posted: 9/3/2015 10:26:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
I want to build a dissy, and I was going to go FF, because FF is (should) be more accurate. And yes I know 99.9 percent of the burden is on the shooter. AND I am probably not good enough myself to notice it. Be honest with yourself and your goals. If you want a FF because you want one, buy one. If you think it will be the difference between a hit and miss, attend an Appleseed shoot or two. If you can't use that carbine to shoot a Rifleman score every time(which is only 4MOA) keep practicing until you can. Heck, I'm confident 99.9% of the people here can't shoot a Rifleman score with their fancy match barrel free floated carbines. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 10:45:56 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Be honest with yourself and your goals. If you want a FF because you want one, buy one. If you think it will be the difference between a hit and miss, attend an Appleseed shoot or two. If you can't use that carbine to shoot a Rifleman score every time(which is only 4MOA) keep practicing until you can. Heck, I'm confident 99.9% of the people here can't shoot a Rifleman score with their fancy match barrel free floated carbines. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I want to build a dissy, and I was going to go FF, because FF is (should) be more accurate. And yes I know 99.9 percent of the burden is on the shooter. AND I am probably not good enough myself to notice it. Be honest with yourself and your goals. If you want a FF because you want one, buy one. If you think it will be the difference between a hit and miss, attend an Appleseed shoot or two. If you can't use that carbine to shoot a Rifleman score every time(which is only 4MOA) keep practicing until you can. Heck, I'm confident 99.9% of the people here can't shoot a Rifleman score with their fancy match barrel free floated carbines. I guess this was mostly a curiosity issue. But it would be nice to know the difference between FF and not FF. in my mind I was wondering if it's the difference between 1 inch groups, or two inch groups at 100 yards. But I guess if it's not something I can't notice a whole lot then it won't matter. I am a decent shooter, but I have never heard any quantitative answers on this subject. When people always ask how to make their rifle more accurate people say "free float" (and practice more), so I am curious as to HOW MUCH difference and if the Average shooter will notice. By the way if anyone is curious, I will be posting an accuracy report sometime this weekend for the BCM ELW barrel. EDIT: thanks for the responses everyone. Also BigBore, I agree with what you are saying and you make an extremely valuable point, thank you. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 12:23:23 AM EDT
[#5]
I would assume it would depend on how much force is being exerted on the Non-FF barrel, and whether that force is consistent every trigger pull
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Posted: 9/4/2015 2:36:08 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would assume it would depend on how much force is being exerted on the Non-FF barrel, and whether that force is consistent every trigger pull This. If you shoot with no interference on the barrel with both of them, you aren't going to see a difference in precision; however, if you shoot a non-free float in different positions supported by the forearm, you'll might find that your groups are precise, but not accurate -- you might notice variation between the point of aim and impact that you wouldn't see with a free-floated forearm. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 3:14:38 AM EDT
[#7]
If the force on the non FF is consistent like someone above mentioned, and has been zeroed in with the same force on the barrel, then I'd say the accuracy should be the same as with a FF barrel. The nice thing of a FF barrel is that you don't have to worry about on how much force/pressure you put on the barrel because you don't put any pressure on a FF barrel. I have noticed that even a cold hammer forged government barrel can be easily flexed with two fingers. Just press your thumb against your FF rail, and press with your index finger on the barrel and watch the barrel flex. One millimeter of flex at the muzzle makes a 25 millimeter/one inch difference at 25 yards. Or 10 centimeter/3.9 inch at ~100 yards.
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Posted: 9/4/2015 4:05:58 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the force on the non FF is consistent like someone above mentioned, and has been zeroed in with the same force on the barrel, then I'd say the accuracy should be the same as with a FF barrel. The nice thing of a FF barrel is that you don't have to worry about on how much force/pressure you put on the barrel because you don't put any pressure on a FF barrel. I have noticed that even a cold hammer forged government barrel can be easily flexed with two fingers. Just press your thumb against your FF rail, and press with your index finger on the barrel and watch the barrel flex. One millimeter of flex at the muzzle makes a 25 millimeter/one inch difference at 25 yards. Or 10 centimeter/3.9 inch at ~100 yards. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 4:06:46 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You would see no measurable difference in the accuracy between the two. ETA - spending money on GOOD ammo over standard ball ammo will show a difference more than anything else - when all else is equal. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 9:29:37 AM EDT
[#10]
The free float can't make a barrel shoot better than it is. Seems obvious but the general chatter about how great they are mostly glosses over that.
And if you mount a front BUIS on the float - it's not a free float anymore, because sling or rest pressure starts moving the sight around and you are back to square one. That is also lost in the noise about them. It then goes to if you are a good shot and the gun is consistently 2MOA then there's no effective improvement. It's only the precision shooters who see their dollars working. The CQB guys get a lot of mounting options, and beyond that, it's arguable there's any improvement in weight distribution. A free float will tend to ring louder if struck by branches or other items in use, polymer is quieter. Relative to the carrier stomping around with full load out, meh. Working your way thru dense underbrush hunting whitetail, it could make a difference. I added an Apex Gatorgrip to my 6.8 and the net result for the extra $150 was a smaller diameter to hold, more friction from the square pattern of nubs, and It looks cooler to me. YMMV. The AR pistol got B5 polymer handguards because of it. Saved $100. Expensive experiment as far as I'm concerned. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 10:05:21 AM EDT
[#11]
Why? Forging can produce a piece that is stronger than an equivalent cast or machined part. As the metal is shaped during the forging process, its internal grain deforms to follow the general shape of the part. As a result, the grain is continuous throughout the part, giving rise to a piece with improved strength characteristics. Yes, the barrel flexes and not the rail, the DD rail doesn't move at all. Try it yourself if you have FF a setup.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why on earth would you think a hammer forged barrel is more rigid? Are you sure it's not the FF rail that's moving, or a combination of the FF rail and the barrel? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If the force on the non FF is consistent like someone above mentioned, and has been zeroed in with the same force on the barrel, then I'd say the accuracy should be the same as with a FF barrel. The nice thing of a FF barrel is that you don't have to worry about on how much force/pressure you put on the barrel because you don't put any pressure on a FF barrel. I have noticed that even a cold hammer forged government barrel can be easily flexed with two fingers. Just press your thumb against your FF rail, and press with your index finger on the barrel and watch the barrel flex. One millimeter of flex at the muzzle makes a 25 millimeter/one inch difference at 25 yards. Or 10 centimeter/3.9 inch at ~100 yards. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 10:16:51 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Be honest with yourself and your goals. If you want a FF because you want one, buy one. If you think it will be the difference between a hit and miss, attend an Appleseed shoot or two. If you can't use that carbine to shoot a Rifleman score every time(which is only 4MOA) keep practicing until you can. Heck, I'm confident 99.9% of the people here can't shoot a Rifleman score with their fancy match barrel free floated carbines. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I want to build a dissy, and I was going to go FF, because FF is (should) be more accurate. And yes I know 99.9 percent of the burden is on the shooter. AND I am probably not good enough myself to notice it. Be honest with yourself and your goals. If you want a FF because you want one, buy one. If you think it will be the difference between a hit and miss, attend an Appleseed shoot or two. If you can't use that carbine to shoot a Rifleman score every time(which is only 4MOA) keep practicing until you can. Heck, I'm confident 99.9% of the people here can't shoot a Rifleman score with their fancy match barrel free floated carbines. This is probably true, but shooting Appleseed style will show the most POI shift using a non free floated hand guard since you are slinging up tight. I won't argue that it is needed or worth the money, but free float hand guards do make a difference. FWIW, I've shot rifleman with a standard chrome lined barreled iron sighted M14. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 10:23:21 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The free float can't make a barrel shoot better than it is. Seems obvious but the general chatter about how great they are mostly glosses over that. And if you mount a front BUIS on the float - it's not a free float anymore, because sling or rest pressure starts moving the sight around and you are back to square one. That is also lost in the noise about them. It then goes to if you are a good shot and the gun is consistently 2MOA then there's no effective improvement. It's only the precision shooters who see their dollars working. The CQB guys get a lot of mounting options, and beyond that, it's arguable there's any improvement in weight distribution. A free float will tend to ring louder if struck by branches or other items in use, polymer is quieter. Relative to the carrier stomping around with full load out, meh. Working your way thru dense underbrush hunting whitetail, it could make a difference. I added an Apex Gatorgrip to my 6.8 and the net result for the extra $150 was a smaller diameter to hold, more friction from the square pattern of nubs, and It looks cooler to me. YMMV. The AR pistol got B5 polymer handguards because of it. Saved $100. Expensive experiment as far as I'm concerned. The barrel still free floats if you put a BUIS, a optic, and a light on the rail. You can put all kinds of crap on the rail and the barrel will still free float. A rail is extremely rigid, and flexes much less than the barrel. The important thing that you don't put inconsistent pressure on the barrel every time you fire. Even a small amount of pressure will flex the barrel. A rail due to it's bigger diameter flexes much less than the small in diameter barrel, even though the barrel seems more rigid than a thin aluminum rail. It's physics. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 10:24:47 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess this was mostly a curiosity issue. But it would be nice to know the difference between FF and not FF. in my mind I was wondering if it's the difference between 1 inch groups, or two inch groups at 100 yards. But I guess if it's not something I can't notice a whole lot then it won't matter. I am a decent shooter, but I have never heard any quantitative answers on this subject. When people always ask how to make their rifle more accurate people say "free float" (and practice more), so I am curious as to HOW MUCH difference and if the Average shooter will notice. By the way if anyone is curious, I will be posting an accuracy report sometime this weekend for the BCM ELW barrel. EDIT: thanks for the responses everyone. Also BigBore, I agree with what you are saying and you make an extremely valuable point, thank you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I want to build a dissy, and I was going to go FF, because FF is (should) be more accurate. And yes I know 99.9 percent of the burden is on the shooter. AND I am probably not good enough myself to notice it. Be honest with yourself and your goals. If you want a FF because you want one, buy one. If you think it will be the difference between a hit and miss, attend an Appleseed shoot or two. If you can't use that carbine to shoot a Rifleman score every time(which is only 4MOA) keep practicing until you can. Heck, I'm confident 99.9% of the people here can't shoot a Rifleman score with their fancy match barrel free floated carbines. I guess this was mostly a curiosity issue. But it would be nice to know the difference between FF and not FF. in my mind I was wondering if it's the difference between 1 inch groups, or two inch groups at 100 yards. But I guess if it's not something I can't notice a whole lot then it won't matter. I am a decent shooter, but I have never heard any quantitative answers on this subject. When people always ask how to make their rifle more accurate people say "free float" (and practice more), so I am curious as to HOW MUCH difference and if the Average shooter will notice. By the way if anyone is curious, I will be posting an accuracy report sometime this weekend for the BCM ELW barrel. EDIT: thanks for the responses everyone. Also BigBore, I agree with what you are saying and you make an extremely valuable point, thank you. Would not be statistically significant based on your experimental design. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 10:45:37 AM EDT
[#15]
SGM Kyle Lamb wrote in his book that he has been able to move bullet impact 4" at 100 yards when a non float barrel was slung up tight.....I have a tendency to listen to men like him.
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Posted: 9/4/2015 11:40:02 AM EDT
[#16]
Marine Corps M27 as a service rifle experiment did accuarcy testing of A4s and PIPd A4s with free floating barrels to determine if free contributed to accuarcy
9 guns firing 30 rounds a piece from fixed mounts at 300ms; the non-free floating weapons averaged CEP was 5" and the free floating guns averaged a 4.25 CEP |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 12:41:25 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why? Forging can produce a piece that is stronger than an equivalent cast or machined part. As the metal is shaped during the forging process, its internal grain deforms to follow the general shape of the part. As a result, the grain is continuous throughout the part, giving rise to a piece with improved strength characteristics. Yes, the barrel flexes and not the rail, the DD rail doesn't move at all. Try it yourself if you have FF a setup. Quote HistoryQuoted: Why? Forging can produce a piece that is stronger than an equivalent cast or machined part. As the metal is shaped during the forging process, its internal grain deforms to follow the general shape of the part. As a result, the grain is continuous throughout the part, giving rise to a piece with improved strength characteristics. Yes, the barrel flexes and not the rail, the DD rail doesn't move at all. Try it yourself if you have FF a setup. Quoted: Quoted: If the force on the non FF is consistent like someone above mentioned, and has been zeroed in with the same force on the barrel, then I'd say the accuracy should be the same as with a FF barrel. The nice thing of a FF barrel is that you don't have to worry about on how much force/pressure you put on the barrel because you don't put any pressure on a FF barrel. I have noticed that even a cold hammer forged government barrel can be easily flexed with two fingers. Just press your thumb against your FF rail, and press with your index finger on the barrel and watch the barrel flex. One millimeter of flex at the muzzle makes a 25 millimeter/one inch difference at 25 yards. Or 10 centimeter/3.9 inch at ~100 yards. I have and have had more than a few FF uppers and the rails indeed move, even DD, of which I own Lite Rail, Lite Rail II, RIS II, and have in the past owned DDM4 as well. The whole assembly flexes, including the receiver itself. Go watch some hi-speed videos of an AR15 firing cycle. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 12:49:49 PM EDT
[#18]
^ Sorry, but I don't agree with you at all on this. Yes the rails flex a bit, but by far not as much as the barrel does. I have seen many slow motion footage's of AR15 rifles, and have never noticed an good amount of rail flex when firing. The barrel "Whip" however was very noticeable, especially when a compensator muzzle device was used. Symmetrical / flash suppressors only muzzle devices seem to eliminate barrel whip almost completely. Press your thumb on your rail and pull the barrel with your index finger toward your thumb. You'll be surprised what you will see.
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Posted: 9/4/2015 3:47:39 PM EDT
[#19]
The biggest reason to buy a free float rail is because the best rails are free float. Most rifles aren't going to be precise enough for you to tell a difference, and most shooters aren't precise or accurate enough to make a difference.
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Posted: 9/4/2015 4:03:00 PM EDT
[#20]
First time I ever dealt with this was one time I was putting quite a bit of downpressure on my rifle, to keep it nice and still to shoot for groups. I had the rest half way down the barrel on a 20" barrel. I definitely saw vertical stringing and was scratching my head. I was new to AR's at the time. If shooting for groups since then, I always put my rest as close as possible to the receiver and try not to put an excess amount of pressure or downward force on the gun. It helps.
Now, yeah, I think if one is slung up real tight, it could be an issue. If there were no pressure put on the barrel, it would be the same accuracy wise, whether it was FF or not. But in real life, I think it's hard to never put any pressure on the barrel. This is my interpretation of it and my experience. I haven't shot nearly as much as Steve though and his opinion carries a lot of weight. But I'm assuming all the HiPower guys that get good scores typically use FF tubes because of how tight they sling up....... eh? |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 4:25:12 PM EDT
[#21]
This is all really helpful guys, I really appreciate it. It seems as though there is a lot more to it than FF or non FF, that's what I am getting out of this.
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Posted: 9/4/2015 4:25:55 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First time I ever dealt with this was one time I was putting quite a bit of downpressure on my rifle, to keep it nice and still to shoot for groups. I had the rest half way down the barrel on a 20" barrel. I definitely saw vertical stringing and was scratching my head. I was new to AR's at the time. If shooting for groups since then, I always put my rest as close as possible to the receiver and try not to put an excess amount of pressure or downward force on the gun. It helps. Now, yeah, I think if one is slung up real tight, it could be an issue. If there were no pressure put on the barrel, it would be the same accuracy wise, whether it was FF or not. But in real life, I think it's hard to never put any pressure on the barrel. This is my interpretation of it and my experience. I haven't shot nearly as much as Steve though and his opinion carries a lot of weight. But I'm assuming all the HiPower guys that get good scores typically use FF tubes because of how tight they sling up....... eh? This makes sense. In this case, theoretically, a FF barrel wouldn't have had that issue I suppose. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 4:38:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I haven't shot nearly as much as Steve though and his opinion carries a lot of weight. But I'm assuming all the HiPower guys that get good scores typically use FF tubes because of how tight they sling up....... eh? In HI Power shooting, the free float tube is one of the pieces of the kit along with a thick padded glove, jacket, sling, mat, hand loaded ammo, etc.. Asking about a carbine as discussed in a general AR Discussion forum, the context is different. As I said, a good rifleman using a standard AR with ball ammo should shoot 4MOA all day long. The 10 Ring in Hi Power shooting is 2 MOA. All those guys, shooting hipower, with all their gear and fancy handloads only need to shoot 2 MOA for a perfect/clean score. With it being that easy you would thing you'd see a lot more cleans when the targets come up, huh? |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 6:54:21 PM EDT
[#24]
The free float can't make a barrel shoot better than it is. Seems obvious but the general chatter about how great they are mostly glosses over that. Free floating, AR or otherwise, accomplishes 2 things: 1) prevents pressure from being exerted on the barrel 2) prevents interference with barrel harmonics Both of these promote consistency, and consistency is accuracy. Regarding the AR, however, that is only half of the equation. FF hand guards are lighter weight than their drop-in counterparts even before you count the FSB. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:08:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Only benefit to free float is that a consistent rest. If you rest the rifle same way every time they will shoot same.
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:09:09 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ^ Sorry, but I don't agree with you at all on this. Yes the rails flex a bit, but by far not as much as the barrel does. I have seen many slow motion footage's of AR15 rifles, and have never noticed an good amount of rail flex when firing. The barrel "Whip" however was very noticeable, especially when a compensator muzzle device was used. Symmetrical / flash suppressors only muzzle devices seem to eliminate barrel whip almost completely. Press your thumb on your rail and pull the barrel with your index finger toward your thumb. You'll be surprised what you will see. Pushing the barrel with your thumb, and using the rail for leverage moves both of them. That's a fact. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 9:21:02 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would assume it would depend on how much force is being exerted on the Non-FF barrel, and whether that force is consistent every trigger pull Bingo. Years ago, I had a bolt action hunting rifle that shot well with hand loads. About 1.25-1.5MOA groups. But it threw flyers when I shot off a bipod. I replaced the stock, floated the barrel and bedded the action. There was a solid accuracy improvement. That was likely from bedding the action. But it also stopped throwing flyers when I shot off the bipod. That's the advantage to a free float rail in my opinion. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 9:54:38 PM EDT
[#28]
The closest I came was when I owned two ARs, a Colt AR15A2 20'' and a white oak service rifle upper on a lower with a Geissele high speed.
From the bench, I got about 1.5 MOA with the white oak and 1.75 MOA with the Colt using the same ammo (I think Prvi Partizan 75, though it might have been Hornady steel match 75 grain). Free floating eliminates the impact of different pressures on the handguard changing point of impact. This is critical for NRA high power shooters, using slings tightened against their arm to stabilize the rifle. I would think it is of some practical use if you are shooting with a bipod occasionally, though I have no experience with that. The only reason my carbines are free floated is because I prefer rifle length handguards, in large part due to the fact I grew up shooting 20'' rifles. ETA: It is important to understand that arfcommers, by and large, are gear whores/enthusiasts. Spending that next several hundred dollars may only make the rifle 5% more accurate, but fuck it, we love guns. That's why I do it. It is by no means necessary to have an accurate and reliable AR15. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 1:46:42 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In HI Power shooting, the free float tube is one of the pieces of the kit along with a thick padded glove, jacket, sling, mat, hand loaded ammo, etc.. Asking about a carbine as discussed in a general AR Discussion forum, the context is different. As I said, a good rifleman using a standard AR with ball ammo should shoot 4MOA all day long. The 10 Ring in Hi Power shooting is 2 MOA. All those guys, shooting hipower, with all their gear and fancy handloads only need to shoot 2 MOA for a perfect/clean score. With it being that easy you would thing you'd see a lot more cleans when the targets come up, huh? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I haven't shot nearly as much as Steve though and his opinion carries a lot of weight. But I'm assuming all the HiPower guys that get good scores typically use FF tubes because of how tight they sling up....... eh? In HI Power shooting, the free float tube is one of the pieces of the kit along with a thick padded glove, jacket, sling, mat, hand loaded ammo, etc.. Asking about a carbine as discussed in a general AR Discussion forum, the context is different. As I said, a good rifleman using a standard AR with ball ammo should shoot 4MOA all day long. The 10 Ring in Hi Power shooting is 2 MOA. All those guys, shooting hipower, with all their gear and fancy handloads only need to shoot 2 MOA for a perfect/clean score. With it being that easy you would thing you'd see a lot more cleans when the targets come up, huh? Well obviously there's a lot more to shooting well than just the gear. Which I guess is the point you're trying to drive home. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 2:15:12 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In HI Power shooting, the free float tube is one of the pieces of the kit along with a thick padded glove, jacket, sling, mat, hand loaded ammo, etc.. Asking about a carbine as discussed in a general AR Discussion forum, the context is different. As I said, a good rifleman using a standard AR with ball ammo should shoot 4MOA all day long. The 10 Ring in Hi Power shooting is 2 MOA. All those guys, shooting hipower, with all their gear and fancy handloads only need to shoot 2 MOA for a perfect/clean score. With it being that easy you would thing you'd see a lot more cleans when the targets come up, huh? If we shot in tunnels, yeah. The 10 ring on the MR-31 is 1.75 MOA, btw.   |
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