I figured it out from context, though I didn't know the Army motor pool term.  It seems like an important thing for your guns to be as "new-ish" as possible so the customer gets a good experience with it.

I always thought is "Rebuilt" or "Refurbed/Refurbished"


CD

I tell others about this thread and it's findings, and it sure is interesting listening to their reactions. The people I've been informing for the most part haven't fired 100 rounds from their AR (or anything) still fewer have reached 1000 yet seem to think this is vital information. I myself haven't reached 1000 in any one firearm I currently own save a .22lr plinker, this thread's usefulness to me comes in what to look for 10 years down the road should I live that long.



When I read "reset" in a vehicle I imagine the motor pool mechanics hooking the odometers to electric drills, turning back the miles... "Good as new, General!"

Thanks for sharing with us

That would be the Cocke County way.

This has been the most informative thread since Pat Rogers on 'what parts break in a carbine class'. Thanks.

Ron,

1. Thanks a lot, this is awesome information.

2. Thanks for employing vets.  Sad reality but infantry skill set isn't very marketable.

3. What buffer / spring are you using for your Titan Defense - TDI 415?  From what I gather you may be the only subject matter expert on this upper.  

Thanks again

LIES!

 

Infantry rules:

1.)  Always look cool

2.)  Never get lost

3.)  If lost, refer to #1


See?  Marketable anywhere!

FIXED  

Ron, I know I'm probably the millionth person to say this but thank you for taking the time to share all of this with us!

If there's one thing to take away from this thread it's that we have worried entirely too much about breaking parts, barrel wear, ect. It also shows you don't have to spend a fortune to get quality parts (PSA).

That is the exact reason I started these topics. I hope that more people will realize that it doesn't take a $1,500 upper to go out and have fun with their AR15. I've given our experiences here on the range and nobody has paid me to promote their product or keep my mouth quiet. I've tried my hardest to not bad mouth any one company (not my objective) and let the guys that live check to check and hide a few dollars here and there to buy themselves a new "toy" that it's OK to make that purchase. You don't have to skip rent, credit card bills or enjoying a dinner out with the family to have a fun and reliable AR15.

I am now in a position that I can afford pretty much any weapon I want (I own a transferable M134 "minigun") and have no desire to purchase any high-dollar rifles that do that same thing (my opinion from my experiences) that lower-cost parts kits and rifles. My wife is on the fence about purchasing the Boba Fett gun from Battle Arms Development not because it's the most tactical or high-precision (it may be, I haven't kept up because so much new stuff is constantly being released) but because of the cool factor. Purchase what makes you happy and what you can afford but don't go into bankruptcy because the newest celebrity says it his/her go-to gun.

V/R
Ron

I am sure your wife is well aware of the matching AR500 armor that she needs to get with the gun, correct?

Thank you for that statement, Ron.  I appreciate what you said, being someone with a family that doesn't have much (if any from time-to-time) extra income to use on toys for myself.  If and when I buy something, I have to make sure the cost/benefit makes sense for my budget restrictions.  Someday, I'll have the funds to get the Colt Mk18 that I've always wanted with a suppressor, LMT rear sight, Aimpoint/EoTech, and other expensive add-ons, a sweet Mk12, and not have to worry about getting the absolute best deal on the items I'm looking for.  For now, I'm going with PSA and other companies with items that I can afford so I can have fun and have something for protection, instead of nothing.  It's nice to hear someone with experience, and money , voice that they understand the situation a lot of the members of arfcom are in, and not judging people because they aren't going after Noveske/Colt/DD/etc.

Hi Ron

Thanks for the great write up.

A quick question, out of all the M4 / AR manufacturers Colts LMT, DD, HK etc etc...

Is there a manufacturers tend to outperform the others?

@ Ron

If you have any in use, I would love to know how Clamp-on, and unpinned but loctited set screw gas blocks are holding up. Thanks.

^^^^ This

We have several of these in use by manufactures to include MicroMOA, YHM and Daniel Defense. All of the low profile gas blacks are completely mounted under the quad rails and not one of them has a dimpled barrel to ensure a positive lock. I was very surprised to find out that they don't loosen up after time. You can see carbon from gas blowing out all round the gas block (after thousands and thousands of rounds) that in my opinion, has caused the set screws to "freeze up" and stay in place. Carbon plays havoc on our suppressed weapons because it gets into all the threads and baffles so that's what leads me to believe it actually is helping us with keeping the gas block stay put.

Also, we do have one M4 with a YHM clamp-on folding front sight and gas block combo. We only used it for looks because all the metal portions were finished in FDE molyresin and the rest of the furniture was FDE. We wanted to use MOE handguards on it but it initially had a low profile gas and Korean quad rail mounted. Because I couldn't find our jig to properly drill the holes for a standard front sight base, we used a YHM clamp-on unit that had been sitting a parts box for at least 4-5 years. To my surprise, even the YHM clamp-on unit has not budged. This one really blew my mind because it's not dimpled and I thought for sure that forward pressure customers use when holding the weapon, it would surely slip forward slowly lose gas. Again, this weapon has plenty of carbon blowing out around the gas area and I will again assume it's carbon getting into the screws and around the clamping assembly and "freezing" up from all the carbon.

All of the low profile gas blocks have held up equally but I prefer the MicroMOA units that have the gas restriction plug that allows us to slow down (and not over gas) the short barrel M4's. I would like to compare two 10" M4's by putting both on the line at the same time and use a standard gas block and a MicroMOA gas block and see if the bolt lasts longer. You can definitely feel the difference when using the MicroMOA unit (Baby Govnah) but if it can extend the life of the bolt from shearing in addition to providing a "softer" customer experience, it's a win-win situation.

Wow, thank you very much Ron! Your input on this will give me a better sleep for sure.

There is one more thing that would interest me. It is very difficult and time consuming to align the gas tube when assembling a new AR-15. I personally align my tubes so that the gas tube free floats into the upper receiver. That way the gas key can easily move the tube to its desired direction via a shorter distance, rather than dragging it all the way up from a corner or something. And when I go full anal, I align it so that the tube enters the upper slight above center, but still free floating, because in most AR's, the bolt carrier/gas key engages with the tube from above center under live fire. I know that most AR home builders, and probably even most factory builders somewhat neglect this, and the tube more often than not rests against the gas tube insert in the upper receiver.

So my question is, how is the mushroom part at the end of the tube holding up? Any premature leaks there from a less than ideal aligned gas tube? Thanks again.

tag

Just when I thought this thread was dead, you go ahead and do something like this.

Very good info to know.

I will also second the question about gas tube wear.  I've seen it personally on high volume guns, especially RLGS.  I'm interested to know the life of gas tubes.  I personally spend a lot of time ensuring they are aligned optimally for the key fit, not binding.

Just had a friend bring his in because it was locking up the action.  His gas block was back too far, so the flange was somehow press-fitting deep inside the carrier key.  Both were nitrided, which are not what the TDP calls for.  TDP calls for soft steel carrier keys.

I will get the pics but that same spot on one of our receivers has been worn out so badly that the upper receiver is no longer functional. This is the first time that we've worn out an AR15 upper receiver to the point that it can no longer function properly,

V/R
Ron

ADCO has said in the past the only legitimate reason for the dimples are alignment and they do nothing to secure it.

Not me, love it and back to the top with ya.

Quite a few of you have asked about how the Colt M4's are holding up since being put on the line (according to our records, this particular rifle went on the line 02 OCT 15). They have handled very well with no broken bolts, no broken hammer/trigger pins, no eroded gas tubes or any other failures up until this week. I do want to put it out there that the RSO's really like these weapons. They were all outfitted with the exact same Magpul furniture in two different colors to help in swapping out weekly. They all have MOE handguards with a forward pistol grip to help control heat issues. These weapons get hot after several magazines and when you have parties of anywhere from 2-20 people shooting, the weapons are intolerable for the person who's never handled a firearm to enjoy the experience.

That being said, the RSO's have used these weapons every day of the week and migrate towards the Colt's. They have been on the line since the first week of October and as stated above, they haven't suffered from any issues up until this point. The only reason that I am bringing this up is because I was in the armory yesterday morning and I noticed on of the Colt's disassembled on the bench. It was a FDE model and I knew that those models were on the line and shouldn't be down for cleaning. I asked my armorer Danny Boy what the issue was and he said that the ejector spring was in about 7-8 pieces and that it actually happened to be the second one of the morning. I thought that was pretty odd for two ejector springs to go out in the same day. My other armorer Sean stated that he had already replaced two others early this week for a total of four Colt M4's to suffer ejector spring failure in one week. Also, the ejector pin spring sheared upon failure and had to be punched out.

For this rifle to have four HARD months of use and only suffer from a ejector spring failure is really good in my opinion but the fact that four went down with the exact same issue is what's strange. Also, we never saw the usual slow down during the November through February season and these weapons have continued to see high round counts. Without looking at numbers of rounds consumed for the time period it's fair to see these rifles have no less than 25,000-30,000 rounds through them.

Today is my day off but I will send a message to the armorers to go ahead replace all the ejector springs in the Colt M4's as preventive maintenance and to avoid malfunctions with customers on the range.

V/R
Ron

Thanks for the update. 25,000-30,000 is a lot of rounds for a ejector spring. I believe they have a maintenance plan of 10,000 rounds. So you tripled their expected life.

Good stuff.

Yes sir. Not one bolt failure on the Colt's to date.

V/R
Ron

It would seem that all of the "improved" bolts that are being offered these days aren't really necessary. It also seems that the HP testing isn't as destructive and some people thought.

That is impressive! Amazing how quality AR's are holding up with preventative maintenance. If it isn't broke, do not fix it

Ron, I'm really impressed with the way those M4s have held up.  Your experience with ejector springs makes me wonder something, though: do you have a specific inspection routine for when the guns come off the line for cleaning (that might include "look at the ejector springs"), or do your armorers just inspect everything while deep cleaning the guns?

I'll also echo The Hammer's observation: just about every AR shooter should stop fretting about systematic failures and just pay attention to shooting.  The way your guns are used is really "abuse" to the rest of us, and having ONLY some spring failures after that much use is hugely impressive.  (I'll bet the springs failed because they got cooked from all the heat those guns had to deal with, NOT because they were not well made.)

I'll keep working on trigger and sight alignment techniques, and I'm not going to worry about failures while I'm doing it.  Parts will fail with use, major or minor notwithstanding.  This applies to guns, cars, computers, and everything else.  The only time to worry is when multiple parts fail, or when parts fail far more often than they should.  Or more dramatically than they should - a bolt failing at the cam pin hole is less worrisome than one failing at multiple lugs at the same time.

So my spares stash is still there, and your extremely informative posts have helped me in deciding what spares to stock, but I won't be surprised if I only rarely use any of those parts.  I never have the chance to shoot the ever lovin' snot out of any of my guns, let alone to the level that ALL of yours get used!

Keep on rocking, Ron; I'm looking forward to your next illuminating "here's what my armorers showed me today" post!

Ron,

Your guys probably already know, but the ejector spring on a TDP gun is duplicated in the pistol grip with the selector detent spring.

Makes field repair for military armorers much easier as long as the original in the bolt hasn't fragmented like yours.

Ron, you mentioned your friendship with the New Frontier Amorry owner. Do you use any of their products? Was curious about how polymer lowers hold up under prolonged use.

Well thats good to know. Thanks

I've previously stated that we've never lost a AR15 receiver due to wear like we have with AK's. Well, with over three years of constant use that is no longer the truth. It's very clear how deep the bolt carrier key has worn into the upper receiver over the years. The armorers made notes in their records about the wear pattern but didn't see a need to replace the receiver as it continued to function and barrels had been swapped (making sure the headspace was kept in spec) with no issue of reliability.

The weapon came off the line because the RSO stated that the bolt wouldn't go into battery. Initially they assumed there must have been a sheared key or case inside the barrel extension area that wouldn't allow the bolt to close. After further inspection, they noticed that the bolt was hitting the face of the barrel extension. They stripped the weapon down and that's when they discovered that there had been so much wear that the bolt carrier was being pushed upward and causing the misalignment. To go back and do the math on the round count would take a VERY long time and even then it would only be good estimate. What I do know is that this particular rifle was one of mine before we opened Battlefield Vegas and has been on the line since day one. It's had two barrel swaps, several bolt's and numerous springs, extractors, etc but it was a great running gun and that's why they kept it on the line. I don't remember who I purchased this receiver from but it's fair to say that it wasn't a high-dollar upper by any means. This was a personal weapon that we used for demo's and I couldn't afford a nice rifle to let LE use and abuse so more than likely it was from JT Distributing or DS Arms.

We had distributor accounts set up with both of them prior to opening Battlefield and used quite a bit of their products. Either way, it's a standard forged upper receiver that has lasted untold thousands of rounds before failing. I don't want people to come out and say that I am stretching the truth but I will throw some numbers out there and let you do the math. Each M4 on the line will get a minimum of 20 magazines run through it each day and each magazine has 25 rounds. Just for fun, let's just say that it was on the line only 3 out of the 7 days of week for 3 years and 3 months. Now, that is a very conservative number because there are SO many times that we go through 10,000+ rounds of .223 on a Saturday in the last three years.

Here are some pics...

Wow!!

Amazing.

You've probably said already somewhere, but what lube?

Ever try G96 Gun Treatment aerosol?  There is a Canadian study that actually measured gun WEAR {aluminum framed pistol} that had that stuff as one of the best.  It is also easy to apply.  Takes no time at all {no disassembly needed and can be easily used on a gun you don't want to clean yet}.

I came up with 253,500 rds.

Edit:  Thanks for posting Ron.  This is great information.

I forgot the YEARS!!

So we have 20x25=500 x 3=1500 {per week}.  3 years =  c.156 weeks.  3 months = c. 12 weeks. Total weeks =168.  Rounds per week 1500 X Total weeks = 252,000 rounds.

Counting the extra days as it looks like you did you get the extra rounds.

Either way that is a whale of a lot of bullets!!

Ron:

What is your backstop made of and how often do you mine it?

...of course I guess by now it might just be made entirely of bullets!  

I came up with 84,000

Edit: For whatever reason I used 500 a week instead of 1500

So Ron, as of now you've had one upper receiver wear out but no lowers correct?

Who all believes that this is sticky worthy? I for one damn sure do.

Ron,

Have you used any of the Ruger guns?  The SR-556 piston or the AR-556 DI?

252,000 estimated rounds to wear out an upper....  amazing.
 Can I assume the  same lower was used  the entire round count, and is still  functioning ?

That's the low estimate. If you say 5 days a week its at 490,000 rounds.

To save the receiver would it be possible to open up the slot (width and depth) and insert a new gas key channel, retained with permanent Loctite?

Joe

Have you considered one of the new Secubit Round counters from CAA on your AR's and other railed firearms as a way to track round counts and keep digital records?

CAA Secubit

The dude would rather have a dollar counter that might save him a few hours off his accountant's bill!!!

Id bet that the counter will wear out and stop working before the rifle.

Would be faaaaaar cheaper just to buy a new receiver. Machinist time ain't cheap.