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Posted: 5/22/2015 2:22:37 PM EDT
[#1]
Too*
A VFG will help. The legitimate fix that I've found is a thicker barrel profile. My government profile barrels get hot as hell, my SOCOM profile barrels do not. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 2:27:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Too*
A VFG will help. The legitimate fix that I've found is a thicker barrel profile. My government profile barrels get hot as hell, my SOCOM profile barrels do not. Fixed the title lol But yeah new barrel aint gonna work as this is a brand new upper. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 2:28:46 PM EDT
[#3]
I have the same problem on my 10.5" Pistol, I added a AFG but haven't shot it yet. The rail covers don't help either. Id get some gloves also.
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Posted: 5/22/2015 2:46:47 PM EDT
[#4]
Maybe take off the panels off where you don't hold it. Give that baby some more ventilation.
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Posted: 5/22/2015 2:48:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: So went and shot my new Aero Precision 16in mid-length with 12in mlok rail. I added magpul mlok rail covers because I figured it would be to hot without, we'll it's too hot with. After a few mags I could not hold it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has experienced this. Other than a glove is there a better solution? Vfg maybe? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/x2122/Guns/M4%20Custom%20Build/AR%20SPR/20150522_135825_zpsnhb4mw1c.jpg Try it without the rail covers. Let some air circulate thru there. Just a thought - no experience with railcovers. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 2:48:26 PM EDT
[#6]
The maximum sustained rate of fire for an AR-15 type weapon is 12-15 rounds/minute.
If you're shooting faster than that, you are damaging your barrel. If your hand guards through the rail covers are too hot to touch, how hot do you think your barrel is? |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 3:22:25 PM EDT
[#7]
Remove rail covers where you don't put your support hand to aid with air circulation.
Get some gloves, there's no reason not to. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 3:41:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The maximum sustained rate of fire for an AR-15 type weapon is 12-15 rounds/minute. If you're shooting faster than that, you are damaging your barrel. If your hand guards through the rail covers are too hot to touch, how hot do you think your barrel is? OK I'm not doing full auto mag dumps here. I'll try what others said and take off some panels maybe add a avg or vfg |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 4:13:24 PM EDT
[#9]
Part of it is just the nature of keymod rails. I had the Noveske NSR and it would get quite hot. The rail panels helped a little with heat reflection. Great rail but I don't care for the keymods. Just my experience and preference.
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Posted: 5/22/2015 4:17:21 PM EDT
[#10]
Yeah, take off ALL of the covers to begin with and try shooting that way. The barrel and the gas block need air space to ventillate. If it is still too hot, then add covers only where your support hand will touch the rail.
If that remains the problem, then you have purchased a rail without enough ventillation slots. I doubt that is the problem, though. It's a good idea to wear a glove on your support hand anyway. If you get in the habit of that, you can shoot anything and think nothing about it. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 4:22:28 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Part of it is just the nature of keymod rails. I had the Noveske NSR and it would get quite hot. The rail panels helped a little with heat reflection. Great rail but I don't care for the keymods. Just my experience and preference. Except he has MLok, not Keymod. They are not the same. OP: I have a proprietary rail from Daniel Defense, which is also modular, but it neither MLok or Keymod. It is the MFR 12.0. Similar design, but supports only 3" Picatinny mini-rails, which can be removed completely, or placed only where needed. I run only one on bottom front for a bipod. I do not need accessories that will work with only one format. Picatinney is universal. It is the same rail DD uses on its DDM4V7 complete rifles. Some claim it gets too hot also. I have not found that to be the case with my own use. Maybe I shoot slower? I do typically wear a glove of habit on the support hand, but sometimes have shot it bare handed and have not found it to be too hot to hold. I really think that if you get all those covers off and let the rail and barrel have room to breath, all will be fine. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 4:35:22 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The maximum sustained rate of fire for an AR-15 type weapon is 12-15 rounds/minute.
If you're shooting faster than that, you are damaging wearing your barrel faster than normal use. If your hand guards through the rail covers are too hot to touch, how hot do you think your barrel is? FIFY. Every shot "damages" a barrel. It's called wear. Shooting an overly hot bbl wears it faster than normal. A bbl is an easily replaceable part. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 5:08:43 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 5/22/2015 5:58:45 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Part of it is just the nature of keymod rails. I had the Noveske NSR and it would get quite hot. The rail panels helped a little with heat reflection. Great rail but I don't care for the keymods. Just my experience and preference. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Part of it is just the nature of keymod rails. I had the Noveske NSR and it would get quite hot. The rail panels helped a little with heat reflection. Great rail but I don't care for the keymods. Just my experience and preference. 
This has nothing to do with Keymod. He doesn't even have a Keymod rail. But that won't stop the Keymod bashers who interject in every thread. OP, metal conducts heat. The lighter the barrel and the lighter the rail, the quicker they'll heat up. My Troy Alpha got extremely hot (even without Keymod!) so I added a VFG to it. When I switched the Alpha to a KMR, I put a BCM stubby grip on it. I use it for greater control of the rifle, but it has the added bonus of being able to move my hand down and use it like a traditional VFG I to avoid the heat if needed. The answer is either gloves or a VFG. Quoted:
Quoted: The maximum sustained rate of fire for an AR-15 type weapon is 12-15 rounds/minute.
If you're shooting faster than that, you are damaging wearing your barrel faster than normal use. If your hand guards through the rail covers are too hot to touch, how hot do you think your barrel is? FIFY. Every shot "damages" a barrel. It's called wear. Shooting an overly hot bbl wears it faster than normal. A bbl is an easily replaceable part. This. I guess driving my car damages it, and walking in my shoes damages them. I'd hate to think of the damage I do to my bullets every time I shoot. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 6:30:35 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryThat was funny Back to it though. I kinda figured with less metal to absorb heat that everything would heat faster. So I took the back 3 sections of covers off to help vent took the ladder rail off the top also and will probably order an mlok grip this weekend Other than the heat the rifle was great. Bcm comp helps a lot vs the a2. Going for. An eotech to a 1-6 takes so E getting used to but even with Wolf ammo it shot great. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 6:42:03 PM EDT
[#16]
deleted
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Posted: 5/22/2015 6:55:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Gloves are the most cost effective solution.
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Posted: 5/22/2015 7:21:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Gloves work. Im not a vertical grip fan, but the only one I liked was the BCM Gunfighter. I've been using it for a bit now, and really like it.
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Posted: 5/22/2015 7:27:39 PM EDT
[#19]
It's beyond normal wear when you shoot it that hot. It reduces the usable life of the barrel much faster than a slower rate of fire.
ALL aluminum tubes, free float or not, railed or not, get hot. They absorb the heat from the barrel, especially from around the barrel nut where it actually touches. This is kind of a good thing as it acts as a heat sink to cool the barrel a little bit faster. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 8:26:31 PM EDT
[#20]
Pick up a pair of mechanix gloves
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Posted: 5/22/2015 9:08:30 PM EDT
[#21]
I don't see a shot every couple seconds or even one shot per second being considered rapid fire. Its a rifle designed for combat. Im not worried about burning out the barrel anytime soon just burning my hand.
If I was doing full auto or a slidefire with 100 round drum mags over and over and over getting the barrel red hot thats one thing but semi auto totally different |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 9:09:49 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's beyond normal wear when you shoot it that hot. It reduces the usable life of the barrel much faster than a slower rate of fire. ALL aluminum tubes, free float or not, railed or not, get hot. They absorb the heat from the barrel, especially from around the barrel nut where it actually touches. This is kind of a good thing as it acts as a heat sink to cool the barrel a little bit faster. This. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 9:38:19 PM EDT
[#23]
I prevent this problem by taking two, three, or more weapons to the range. One gets hot I put it down, grab another and keep on getting up. Switching between rifles and pistols helps with getting comfortable and sharpens different skills. Shooting doubles and triples gets the barrel hot fast, so more guns means more shooting without overheated barrels.
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Posted: 5/22/2015 11:17:54 PM EDT
[#24]
If the military determined that their combat arms should only be fired at a 12 to 15 rounds per minute rate, why is it in question? If the weapon is getting too hot - then it's being shot too quickly. Simple physics.
Not to put too fine a point on it - that was determined by real people who actually shot weapons and figured out just how slow it actually takes to keep the weapon in use, and to have sufficient ammo for a typical worst case firefight that doesn't seem to ever stop. If you shoot twice as fast, you run out of ammo twice as fast. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 12:16:59 AM EDT
[#25]
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Posted: 5/23/2015 12:45:51 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the military determined that their combat arms should only be fired at a 12 to 15 rounds per minute rate, why is it in question? If the weapon is getting too hot - then it's being shot too quickly. Simple physics. Not to put too fine a point on it - that was determined by real people who actually shot weapons and figured out just how slow it actually takes to keep the weapon in use, and to have sufficient ammo for a typical worst case firefight that doesn't seem to ever stop. If you shoot twice as fast, you run out of ammo twice as fast. Jesus people was a simple question people act like I'm melting barrels over here. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 12:52:43 AM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 5/23/2015 4:41:58 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The maximum sustained rate of fire for an AR-15 type weapon is 12-15 rounds/minute. If you're shooting faster than that, you are damaging your barrel. If your hand guards through the rail covers are too hot to touch, how hot do you think your barrel is? I see you've been on the site for awhile and if you can correct me with proof then that's fine, otherwise i'm calling BS on this statement. 12-15 rpm,as i understand it, is the number that's given for the effective rate of fire for a soldier engaging a target. i'm not saying there's any point to firing that quickly but i would guess the real damage is gonna vary per situation. Please correct me if im wrong, im learning to. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 8:50:58 AM EDT
[#29]
I found this searching for more info on rate of fire. There is a difference between full auto, sustained fire and semi automatic fire.
Found this in the m16 operating manual TM 9-1005-249-10 Cyclic: 800 rounds per minute Sustained: 12-15 Semiautomatic: 45 |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 10:09:27 AM EDT
[#30]
Lets get off the rate of fire stuff because I think that has very little to do with it. Do any of you guy ever shoot outdoors on a warm sunny day? These black aluminum rails can get too hot to handle just sitting in the sun. There is a reason they make rail panels and it isn't just to protect the rail.
My reece-esq AR has a DD Lite rail on it but I've been wanting to replacing it with one of these newer forearms (DD MFR, or some version of the Keymod or MLOK.) because I really have no need for all the rails and would rather have a lighter, smoother forearm but I have worried about heat as well. That's the #1 reason why I haven't bought the MFR because there is no way to attach panels to it (without installing rail sections which would be completely ignorant) and many people have commented about how hot they get (and how quickly they get that hot) I was leaning towards one of the Keymod/MLOK rails specifically so I could put panels on them and thought that would help? Apparently not by much and I guess now thinking about it, that makes sense. Plastic isn't really a great heat isolator. In the context of this discussion, I don't think there is any difference between a Keymod or MLOK but I do wonder if there is a difference between the some of the really thin designs like the NSR or KMR vs something like the DD Slim rail or Geissele SMR's that have a little more meat to them? I wonder if forearms like the MFR, NSR and KMR are just too thin? Mind you, I've never used any of these forearms so I'm just speculating? |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 10:19:02 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryDid anyone click the fucking link I posted? It's a heat resistant handguard wrap. If you don't want gloves, this is your answer.  20141026_165150 by azoutdoorsman, on Flickr |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 10:59:00 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did anyone click the fucking link I posted? It's a heat resistant handguard wrap. If you don't want gloves, this is your answer. <a href="https://flic.kr/p/pxivRP" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5610/15450434389_d54ff564e0_c.jpg</a>20141026_165150 by azoutdoorsman, on Flickr Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did anyone click the fucking link I posted?
It's a heat resistant handguard wrap. If you don't want gloves, this is your answer. <a href="https://flic.kr/p/pxivRP" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5610/15450434389_d54ff564e0_c.jpg</a>20141026_165150 by azoutdoorsman, on Flickr Couldn't open the link at work and forgot about it. That is pretty cool. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 12:22:10 PM EDT
[#33]
deleted
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Posted: 5/23/2015 2:23:33 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I see you've been on the site for awhile and if you can correct me with proof then that's fine, otherwise i'm calling BS on this statement. 12-15 rpm,as i understand it, is the number that's given for the effective rate of fire for a soldier engaging a target. i'm not saying there's any point to firing that quickly but i would guess the real damage is gonna vary per situation. Please correct me if im wrong, im learning to. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The maximum sustained rate of fire for an AR-15 type weapon is 12-15 rounds/minute. If you're shooting faster than that, you are damaging your barrel. If your hand guards through the rail covers are too hot to touch, how hot do you think your barrel is? I see you've been on the site for awhile and if you can correct me with proof then that's fine, otherwise i'm calling BS on this statement. 12-15 rpm,as i understand it, is the number that's given for the effective rate of fire for a soldier engaging a target. i'm not saying there's any point to firing that quickly but i would guess the real damage is gonna vary per situation. Please correct me if im wrong, im learning to. 12-15 rpm is the maximum rate at which anyone can fire an AR-15 at anything under "normal" conditions and expect it to keep firing for a prolonged period of time. Faster than that, and it's going to fail at some point. That quickly should be read that slowly: even at the sustained rate of fire, you are still damaging/wearing the barrel faster than "normal", but if for some reason (i.e. 2-way range) you had to keep firing for a prolonged period of time, the rifle would probably last. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 3:31:34 PM EDT
[#35]
The problem with using a "wrap"(insulator) is that to keep the heat from your hands it keeps it in the barrel. Thus, the barrel will cool at a slower rate and become unshootable at an increased rate.
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Posted: 5/23/2015 4:11:37 PM EDT
[#36]
I never run my rifles until they're that hot. It's your rifle and your rules. This is one of the reasons I won't buy used firearms.
Getting the barrel so hot you can't put your hand on it damages the barrel. Full-auto barrels last approximately 2500 rounds before they are toast. In combat barrel life is irrelevant compared to my life and the life of my fellow Americans. Let em rip! However, when I have to pay for the barrel's replacement and normally buy high end barrels I limit fast and furious to standard rack grade chrome lined barrels. Even then I rarely shoot more than three to five rounds at a time. Think about placing a blow torch in your chamber for the duration of the magazine dump and adding 30 60,000 psi pressure waives into the mix. That's what happens when people rock-n-roll. Metal becomes more malleable when it heats up and high heat can cause stress cracks on bolt lugs. Fire cracking develops in the barrel just ahead of the chamber and headspace gets excessive in an accelerated fashion. I have an old SP1 that has seen close to 10,000 rounds and it still shoots quite well. I bet I've done less than five mag dumps through it. AK-47's are junk from the get-go and I have no qualms abusing them. I pamper most of my AR's. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 5:05:34 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I never run my rifles until they're that hot. It's your rifle and your rules. This is one of the reasons I won't buy used firearms. Getting the barrel so hot you can't put your hand on it damages the barrel. Full-auto barrels last approximately 2500 rounds before they are toast. In combat barrel life is irrelevant compared to my life and the life of my fellow Americans. Let em rip! However, when I have to pay for the barrel's replacement and normally buy high end barrels I limit fast and furious to standard rack grade chrome lined barrels. Even then I rarely shoot more than three to five rounds at a time. Think about placing a blow torch in your chamber for the duration of the magazine dump and adding 30 60,000 psi pressure waives into the mix. That's what happens when people rock-n-roll. Metal becomes more malleable when it heats up and high heat can cause stress cracks on bolt lugs. Fire cracking develops in the barrel just ahead of the chamber and headspace gets excessive in an accelerated fashion. I have an old SP1 that has seen close to 10,000 rounds and it still shoots quite well. I bet I've done less than five mag dumps through it. AK-47's are junk from the get-go and I have no qualms abusing them. I pamper most of my AR's. 2500? Just had to check my barrel to make sure it wasn't toast. And it isn't.... praise Jesus.
The hotter you get your barrel, the more it is going to wear obviously. When you shoot it FA mag after mag, you risk gas cutting but you should shoot your AR like an AR. There have been a lot of rifles shot hard for 20-30k with no real negative effects. I wouldn't shoot a Krieger or some SS barrel like that but shooting a standard chrome lined barrel so that your barrel is cool enough to touch at all times is ridiculous to me. Its a $200-$300 barrel so whether it gets 20k or 30k doesn't make a difference to me personally since that is 6k-12k in ammo. That's me tho... its obviously your barrel so treat it how you see fit. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 5:53:35 PM EDT
[#38]
So... Apparently if your barrel gets hot then you are abusing it. Clearly I missed the memo on how fragile these ARs are.
All I wanted to know was how others with similar rails delt with heat. This notion that if the barrel is to hot to touch it's being over shot is nonsense. I took off some covers to help circulate the air and I'll see how that works |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 6:04:30 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So... Apparently if your barrel gets hot then you are abusing it. Clearly I missed the memo on how fragile these ARs are. All I wanted to know was how others with similar rails delt with heat. This notion that if the barrel is to hot to touch it's being over shot is nonsense. I took off some covers to help circulate the air and I'll see how that works ^ agreed. Lemme ask you this. Have you ever had any cycling issues? Maybe not enough gas is escaping. Is your barrel a pencil barrel? |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 6:16:19 PM EDT
[#40]
No it fired just fine even black box wolf. I believe it's a government profile barrel. It just got hot like some said because I had it covered.
First thing I did was sight in the new scope after that I was shooting 1 round per second because that's the range rules after a couple preloaded mags I started doing 10 rounds at a time so the rifle had time to cool some between reloading but with all the covers the heat couldn't escape.. Or so is the theory. Now this video I found shows what true abuse is and there is no way I could achieve this with a semi auto. https://youtu.be/BSizVpfqFtw |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 6:25:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No it fired just fine even black box wolf. I believe it's a government profile barrel. It just got hot like some said because I had it covered. First thing I did was sight in the new scope after that I was shooting 1 round per second because that's the range rules after a couple preloaded mags I started doing 10 rounds at a time so the rifle had time to cool some between reloading but with all the covers the heat couldn't escape.. Or so is the theory. Now this video I found shows what true abuse is and there is no way I could achieve this with a semi auto. https://youtu.be/BSizVpfqFtw ok. Glad you got it figured out. Funny that the solution was removing rail covers and other suggestions is a kryptek "sleeping bag" to cover the rail. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 7:46:27 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ok. Glad you got it figured out. Funny that the solution was removing rail covers and other suggestions is a kryptek "sleeping bag" to cover the rail. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No it fired just fine even black box wolf. I believe it's a government profile barrel. It just got hot like some said because I had it covered. First thing I did was sight in the new scope after that I was shooting 1 round per second because that's the range rules after a couple preloaded mags I started doing 10 rounds at a time so the rifle had time to cool some between reloading but with all the covers the heat couldn't escape.. Or so is the theory. Now this video I found shows what true abuse is and there is no way I could achieve this with a semi auto. https://youtu.be/BSizVpfqFtw ok. Glad you got it figured out. Funny that the solution was removing rail covers and other suggestions is a kryptek "sleeping bag" to cover the rail. Well I don't know if it's fixed or not havnt shot it again. but it makes sense as to why. The upper i replaced had a quad rail with scar rail covers where I held it and a vfg so I never noticed the heat even after multiple mags. But being in the quad rail mind set when I ordered the mlok panels I figured I'd just cover the whole thing not thinking about the lesser metal there was less to absorb heat |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 8:04:02 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The problem with using a "wrap"(insulator) is that to keep the heat from your hands it keeps it in the barrel. Thus, the barrel will cool at a slower rate and become unshootable at an increased rate. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 9:19:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Use fewer panels, let air circulate more through the forend. But a vertical grip might help as well. Since you have an Mlok rail I would suggest an Mlok specific grip. MagPul makes them but I want to try one from Arisaka defense sometime soon.
I like to shoot quickly with big magazines, most of my pipes are pencil or lightweight profile. They get a little hot but even on full auto I don't recall any of them ever getting too hot to hold. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 9:46:33 PM EDT
[#45]
As others have said, you need more air flow to cool the barrel and rail. One way to do this is with something like Magpul's AFG2; use it as a handstop and grip, and don't put covers on parts of the rail you're not holding. I'd go for some air space toward the chamber end too, to let the thickest, slowest-cooling part of the barrel get plenty of air as well.
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Posted: 5/23/2015 10:43:30 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As others have said, you need more air flow to cool the barrel and rail. One way to do this is with something like Magpul's AFG2; use it as a handstop and grip, and don't put covers on parts of the rail you're not holding. I'd go for some air space toward the chamber end too, to let the thickest, slowest-cooling part of the barrel get plenty of air as well. yeah i took off 3 sections per side closest to the chamber so only where my hand is holding it has covers. |
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Posted: 5/24/2015 1:02:15 AM EDT
[#47]
I'm curious if anyone has had success with carbon fiber hand guards. Seems a logical solution but I don't read much about them. Are they just not strong enough to warrant consideration? They're certainly light enough, and priced competitively.
http://store.lancer-systems.com/product/lcr5-round-rifle-length-hg/carbon_fiber_handguards Anyone have experience with this or the like? |
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Posted: 5/24/2015 4:56:44 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I prevent this problem by taking two, three, or more weapons to the range. One gets hot I put it down, grab another and keep on getting up. Switching between rifles and pistols helps with getting comfortable and sharpens different skills. Shooting doubles and triples gets the barrel hot fast, so more guns means more shooting without overheated barrels. |
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Posted: 5/24/2015 10:33:09 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm curious if anyone has had success with carbon fiber hand guards. Seems a logical solution but I don't read much about them. Are they just not strong enough to warrant consideration? They're certainly light enough, and priced competitively. http://store.lancer-systems.com/product/lcr5-round-rifle-length-hg/carbon_fiber_handguards Anyone have experience with this or the like? I think the surface finish of the rails helps to reflect some solar radiation (and also radiation from the barrel) better than a black parkerized rail, which would just soak up energy and get smoking hot. Carbon fiber is generally less conductive than aluminum (exact properties depend on ply orientation and tape & resin formulation), which should also fight the hand guard heating up. |
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Posted: 5/24/2015 11:07:31 AM EDT
[#50]
Slow down your rate of fire?
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