Alright guys... I'm finally back on-line and up to date with this thing.  

Haven't scored any of the videos myself yet - but looking at xtreme762's spreadsheet, it's going to make things a lot easier than us plugging away at our little calculators.  

So... I know that a lot of discussion went on since last I posted - mostly having to do with what to do with the last 15 yards, but also involving discussions on changing/adding rules to the COF.

Here's my thoughts first on changing up the rules too much -

We have a pretty decent data set to work from right now based on several runs and several people, with a good bit of variation to get a real comparison of what scoring method will work best to determine ranking or standing.  

For this reason, I don't want to change the rules too much, as to invalidate all of the comparison data we already have - this includes things like 5 versus 3 rounds for initial base of fire and counter-attack.

To reiterate - current standing COF without any proposed changes -

Target - 8x11.5" sheet of paper oriented vertically at 100 yards

Shooters may place a barrier anywhere between 100-15 yards

Shooters may carry a sidearm and engage with it

Barrier and sidearm are optional

1. Start at 100 yard line with unloaded weapon - audible or visible signal starts time
2. Run to target, touch target, and return to 100 yard line
3. Load weapon and fire 3 rounds
4. Bound from 100 yards in 3-5 second bounds, taking up a prone position after each bound - except at the optional barrier
5. Fire at least one 3-round engagement between 100-75 yards, 75-50 yards, 50-25 yards, 25-0 yards
6. Close to 5 yards, announce "LOA," and return to the starting line with expediency
7. React to counter-attack by firing a minimum of 3 rounds at the target from the starting line (100 yards)

In addition - based on what I've been seeing, though I will need to get scoring on the four runs (thornejc, EVR, EVR, and 449) - I think the "SCORE H" model is probably going to be most productive -

SCORE H consists of:

1. Total Elapsed time.

2. Marksmanship -

0-16 hits - UNQUALIFIED
17-22 hits - MARKSMAN (no time deduction)
23-26 hits - SHARPSHOOTER (30 second time deduction from final combined time)
27-30 hits - EXPERT (1 minute time deduction from final combined time)

In addition - Target Score is multiplied x2, with each "point" corresponding to 1 second added to combined score

3. Defilade Time -

7 seconds per defilade position allotted
Each 1/10th of a second over 7 seconds = 1 second penalty
ONLY penalties are added to the combined time
Defilade Time penalties in excess of 4 minutes and 30 seconds (4:30.0) will result in an UNQUALIFIED score

4. Exposure Time -

5 seconds per exposure allotted
Each 1/10th of a second over 5 seconds = 1 second penalty
ALL Exposure Time, including actual exposures AND penalties are added together
TOTAL Exposure Time is multiplied x1.5 THEN added to combined time
Exposure Time totals after 1.5x weighting in excess of 6 minutes and 15 seconds (6:15.0) will result in an UNQUALIFIED score
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


For clarity's sake:

Total combined score will be expressed in a SINGLE TIME which includes the target score (x2), marksmanship deductions, DT, and ET (x1.5)

If a shooter is UNQUALIFIED in ANY of the 3 qualification categories, his or her score will be followed by an "UNQ" with the events that the shooter DID NOT qualify in parenthesis - "TGT" for marksmanship/target, "DT" for Defilade Time, and "ET" for Exposure Time

Thus - a shooter with a total combined score of 6 minutes, 17.3 seconds, who was unqualified for excessive ET would have their score expressed as -

06:17.3 - UNQ (ET)

This will allow shooters to clearly see their standing in comparison to others in their Division - lowest time wins - however - the score is only competitive if there is no "UNQ" behind their time.

~Augee

Okay - in addressing what happens beyond 15 yards - how about this for a simple "fix" that meets all the intents, doesn't appreciably change the COF that others have already run, but prevents overt "gaming" of the 25-0 stage:

How about - no Defilade Time at 15 yards.  Once you hit dirt on your last bound, your next Exposure Time begins (resets to 5 seconds).  

i.e. -

If you bound from 25 yards to 15 yards - when you hit the ground at 15 yards, rather than Defilade Time beginning - your next bound simply begins - meaning that the last "Defilade" is measured the same way as Exposure Time, i.e. (TOTAL time + penalties) x 1.5.  

MOREOVER - your Exposure Time simply continues when you get up - it DOES NOT reset.  

You will still have to shoot at least one engagement between 25-0 yards of 3 rounds minimum (could be increased to 5).  

To prevent the inevitable "unloading" at 25 instead of 15 with the new rule change - I would say during the "bounding" portion -

Shooters may NOT fire more than 5 round from any ONE position EXCEPT between 15-0 yards.  

Meaning you can't, at any point, pick a spot to die on where you want to eat DT penalties and unload as many rounds as you have left -

Meaning - you MUST shoot at least one engagement (3 rounds) between each range bracket - but you may not fire more than 5 from any one bounding position.  You may only fire more than 5 rounds when shooting from 15 yards forward - when it's all Exposure Time, and you can least afford to linger - and you need to shoot fast, on the move, and close with the target, and get to 5 yards and turn around to turn off the Exposure Time you're racking up.

This might require a change to the "UNQ" ET, but it may not - I'll have to run the numbers.  

Alright, guys - tear it apart.  

Does everyone understand what I'm saying?  

Do you think it will work - AND meet the intent?  

I'm going to crunch the numbers to see how that will effect scoring.

Also -

Just FYSA - one of the reasons it took so long for me to "get back online" is that I've had a couple of unexpected developments - nothing bad - but it's altered my timeline a little bit.  

I need to get this COF nailed down within the next week, and the challenge posted "live," or, I may have to pass off responsibility of final clean-up and posting to someone else - or postpone it until the end of June.

I think that it is realistically possible to have the live challenge posted within the next week, and we seem to have plenty of video and examples - and a lot of good stuff has gotten worked out throughout this discussion.

Once the challenge goes live - the only real thing I will need to do is score it, which is much easier once there are solid rules in place, and with xtreme762's spreadsheet.  

Currently, there are two judges, myself and xtreme762.  I think that's enough to start with - once the challenge goes live - we may add a third.  Remember, however, judges cannot compete for the grand prize winnings of the KAC rail cover and T-shirt.  

~Augee

This all makes perfect since to me, Augee. However, whatever gets worked out; cause I'm positive it'll change again - is what I'm gonna roll with.

ETA: Glad to see you back.

There are are still a couple of details that are confusing and I'm about played out with trying to keep up with stuff that seems to make no sense.  Barriers anywhere on the course, now?  Pistols?

Oh, whatever.

Honestly, all the changes and details of rules on this thing make it sort of silly and exhausting.

Augee.  Just pick your rules and be done with it.  If it looks good I'll shoot it.  If it appears stupid to me, I won't.  I guess everybody else will feel and act similarly.

The barrier and pistol have always been a part of the COF, and nothing about them, their use, or placement have changed.  

The barrier, while an artifact of an earlier, more complex COF, I don't think appreciably gives much aid or benefit besides some visual interest, and some individual variability that allows the shooter to make another decision in the planning phase.  

The pistol really only helps to a) allow you to carry more weight when you run, and b) give you recourse if you have a stoppage, and allow you to exercise your discretion as to how to use it.  Again, I don't think it significantly effects the final scoring - and most, I suspect, will probably never use it - again, realistically reflecting how much sidearms are carried versus how much they're used.  

I appreciate and understand your sentiment that all the changes and details are "silly and exhausting," they are - but that was kind of the point of starting this as a discussion thread from Day One.  All of this silly and exhausting stuff has allowed me to gather data, get a decent number of good example runs in, and refine the methods and procedures and get feedback and input from people who have attempted it.  

The hope is that once the silliness is done I'll be able to "go live" and start a "clean" post with solid rules, and fewer "surprises" that pop up.  At that point - you'll be right - people will either shoot it or not, but the "public commentary" period will, for the most part, be over on that aspect - and the discussion can gravitate back towards technique and skill building, and less on "should we do this, what about this change."  

It's part of a process, my friend, and while I'd never say it's "perfect," I think this part of the process may be nearing completion.

And again, I thank all who have given their input and feedback so far, and especially those who have given it a try, knowing that the rules they ran it by one day might easily change the next.  

~Augee

No worries. When it goes live, it won't be confusing. This is exactly why this thread is here in the first place...

I think you're just ready to run it for real. To be put on a list of where you stand against everyone else. It won't be too much longer.

Finally back home! Here is my attempt














Doing this from my phone so I hope all goes well.

I messed up my first attempt, so this was done 10mins after. Thoughts: ACOGs make it much easier. I need a belt that isn't going to spin around my waist lol. If terrain and vegetation allow, use the damn magazine for a monopod

Ammo was 55gn wolf gold.





Rifle:







Here's equipment:








And target. Depending on how the judges care to score I either have 23 or 24 hits.












Here's close up. In person I can see two grease rings:







 

 
 
 

TheGunslinger, awesome job. I'll score this for you. But you should know that at this point the final COF & rules will be ready VERY soon. So this run really won't count for anything right now.

Augee may allow some of the data runs in the final COF as scored runs. But he'll have to chime in on that.


Listen, gents. I know this has been a long, and drawn out process. And maybe some are tired of it already. But please, I ask you to stick with us on this. We're nearing completion of the final COF, and I really think you guys will enjoy it.

Thanks for everyone's support. Without you guys this wouldn't be possible at the level it is.

No problem. Just wanted to get a run in for practice. I'll only be here for another week or so.

OK, you'll be able to run the Live COF then, hopefully.

I second this, along with a hearty dose of gratitude to xtreme762 for all his help as well, he's not only picked up some slack while I've been managing some last-minute changes to my timeline this summer, and for putting together a kick-ass scoring spreadsheet for my non-maths doing ass.  

Live challenge will be on-line very soon, final details getting wrapped up.  

As for runs that have already been done -

Unless someone contacts me specifically that they don't want their run re-posted, I will be re-linking and embedding everyone that's already done a run into example submissions for others to model their own off of.  I will not re-host any of them, so they will all still be "yours" to move/delete as you wish.  However, if anyone does want me to re-host them, let me know (e.g. if you have limited photo hosting bandwidth).

Previous runs and scores according to the finalized scoring metric will be posted to start the "standing board" to give new competitors a yard-stick for previous attempts, and will be "eligible" as competitive scores.

There will be a disclaimer with a link to this thread the first set of runs/scores were all conducted before the COF and rules were finalized, and thus may not be accurately representative of a shooter's performance or abilities in executing the finalized COF.  

~Augee

Did this just die suddenly or was I not invited to the new thread

Whoa, just now seeing this. I'm definitely in once cooler temps shuffle in for fall. No fk'n way am I doing it in 100* + weather unless Uncle Sam is paying me to.

 
Trust me it's still not worth it

I think you jest.

I don't think you are seriously going to avoid running 400 yards because it is hot out.

 
115* heat index with 90% humidity. You live in Idaho; you don't know what humidity is, my friend.

I was wondering where this went too.  Its hot and humid as f*** but my gym is a warehouse with no AC so it can be 110+ in there during workouts so I'm hoping i'd be able to tolerate a 400 yard jog outdoors.  You can always go in the rain.

 
Never said I couldn't tolerate it; I work outside year-round. I just choose to put shooting on hold until cooler weather. I live at the beach and when it's this hot, I'd rather be frolicking in saltwater anyways. But I do occasionally shoot in the heat.

You really have no idea what you are saying because you don't know who you are talking about.

You are right about living in N ID tho.  Tho I haven't always lived here, and neither have I always stayed here.  

Now, get off your butt and go shooting.  

Bump

tag

ill run this this weekend.

Ha.  

Well since this thread has been resurrected again - I've not forgotten about this, though I've been keeping quiet about it, this summer was busier than I expected, even with the expected out of state move, which I have thankfully completed, lots of last minute changes of plans and other things popping up that took priority - so the timeline has shifted, but it's not "dead," at least not to me.  

Anyways, no ETA on the live challenge post - learned my lesson on that one - but it is coming.  

~Augee

I hope it snows back home this year for Christmas. That's when I'll be back next.

I'm dreaming of a white Christmas

Bump

Doing this with a CA compliant AR would be interesting.

I didn't have one handy so I did it with a Mosin-Nagant.  I figured the loading sequence would be comparable...  

This needs to make a comeback

Agreed. This is fantastic and I enjoyed making my video. I'll be shooting this again in several months.

I know this is a crusty old thread, but I might be able to recreate this.

I'm a Drill Sergeant (Infantryman) on Fort Jackson (SC) and we have a live/blank fire buddy team IMT range called Omaha. Just by eyeballing it, it's about 100 meters from start point to final enemy. It has multiple spots for IMTs and barriers as well as it's slightly up hill. I might have to get a good look one of these weekends and post some pics. I'm sure Nick would find it reminiscent of those days in basic.

Hmm, oh the possibilities.

I know Omaha very well.  

Just as a bit of an update, I've moved twice since starting this thread, and have picked up a lot of work, while losing the land that I originally had to run this.  But I have not forgotten about it.  I hope to resurrect it in the near, but indeterminable future.

That being said, since I posted this, the Unity PVS-14 GoPro adapter has been released, and the Night Combat Solutions FPRS, so night iterations are becoming more feasible.  

~Augee

Bump for more shooters! Cmon people it'll be fun they said

Go watch my run I videoed a couple pages back. I ain't skeered.