A Rifle Most Modern: The 18 inch as a homeland defense rifle.

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - A Rifle Most Modern: The 18 inch as a homeland defense rifle. (Page 1 of 3)

Posted: 1/6/2015 11:47:09 PM EDT

Can't wait for the range. Idea is: stock M193 cheap and deep and use the acog with the 55 gr stuff for 0-300 yards. Keep the 18 inch barrel to ensure a good velocity and fragmentation of the m193. Load 69 grain SMK for the Acog BDC to allow the rifle to reach out far.

I think its a do all rifle.

18 inch criterion chrome lined tapered barrel
Aero Precision M4E1

Posted: 1/7/2015 12:09:58 AM EDT

[#1]

Sounds good to me! I've been considering that Criterian 18" med profile barrel, how do you like it?

Any pictures / measurements of the barrel underneath the handguards? Is it closer to .700 diam or .650 diamater?

Thanks!

Oh yes, and what diameter gas port does Criterian use on their 18" rifle gas barrels?

Posted: 1/7/2015 12:34:42 AM EDT

[#2]

I will have some pics of the barrel profile tomorrow. It balances with a rear weight bias due to the acog and At stock. The M4E1 rail is very light and the skinny barrel up front makes it point on target real quick.

Posted: 1/7/2015 12:38:12 AM EDT

[#3]

Let us know if the BDC on the ACOG is working well with the 18" barrel.

Nice setup BTW

Posted: 1/7/2015 12:49:03 AM EDT

[#4]

I like it. Worst case is if it doesn't do all of it still do a lot

Posted: 1/7/2015 1:21:47 AM EDT

[#5]

Why an 18" if you're only shooting out to 300m? Why not a 10.3-11.5" especially using it at mainly shorter ranges? I think 18" is too long for a do-it-all rifle.

Posted: 1/7/2015 1:25:40 AM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:
Why an 18" if you're only shooting out to 300m? Why not a 10.3-11.5" especially using it at mainly shorter ranges? I think 18" is too long for a do-it-all rifle.

View Quote

'cause m193.

Posted: 1/7/2015 2:03:44 PM EDT

[#7]

The Criterion tapered barrel:

Posted: 1/7/2015 2:15:01 PM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:
The Criterion tapered barrel:
http://www.thenewrifleman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/IMG_20150107_122057.jpg

View Quote

Nice, looks looks like you have their heavier barreled version vs. the hybrid profile What size is the gasport?

Can you also get diameters of the barrel right before the gas block, in the middle, and near the receiver?

Thanks!

Posted: 1/7/2015 2:31:47 PM EDT

[#9]

Too long. SBR will down things just fine, 'peak velocity' or not.

Posted: 1/7/2015 2:35:26 PM EDT

[#10]

Good looking rifle.

Needs a rear BUIS for that folding FSP though.

Posted: 1/7/2015 2:45:36 PM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:
Too long. SBR will down things just fine, 'peak velocity' or not.

View Quote

Nope.

Also, one can engage targets just fine with a normal length carbine. In the field, it is actually easier and faster to point and snap shoot with a rifle, esp with irons, than a tiny sbr.

Posted: 1/7/2015 2:58:02 PM EDT

[#12]

A nice rifle but everyone home defense needs are different.

I personally live in the suburbs so shooting past 100 yards is probably never going to be needed, heck my home and property is small so i probably wont need to shoot past 10 yards!

But another person might own a 1000 acre farm on the US/Mexican border and their needs will be very different.

Posted: 1/7/2015 3:01:16 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:

Nope.

Also, one can engage targets just fine with a normal length carbine. In the field, it is actually easier and faster to point and snap shoot with a rifle, esp with irons, than a tiny sbr.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Too long. SBR will down things just fine, 'peak velocity' or not.

Nope.

Also, one can engage targets just fine with a normal length carbine. In the field, it is actually easier and faster to point and snap shoot with a rifle, esp with irons, than a tiny sbr.

I honestly feel like you don't have too much experience in this area. I have hunted a decent amount (wild pigs/deer on occasion) with an 11.5" at ranges from about 25m-200m and the 11.5" takes down animals just as effectively as my 14.5. I would honestly never know the difference... I have had runners w/ both lengths and every time it has been a shot placement deal... not a result of some diminished efficacy. Also, your standard length carbine sights have a smaller radius than my SBR's irons and unless you are running something shorter than a carbine length gas system, even w/ the FSB the sight radius will be the exact same. Irons suck for all practical applications anyways but if you want to get there, that is how it is. Pointing and shooting with a shorter barrel is going to be easier... I don't know you can argue otherwise. No one here was talking about tiny toy SBRs. The range mentioned was 0-300, HD ranges are infinitesimally short, and if you are hunting at ranges of 500 + you have no business running 556. Do you happen to own an SBR? If so, I would love to see the rifle you think is letting you down.

Beautifully done rifle OP

Posted: 1/7/2015 3:16:24 PM EDT

[#14]

I like 18” barrels.
For my purposes it is an adequate compromise for do all.

Posted: 1/7/2015 4:01:43 PM EDT

[#15]

Here are my two favorite "do all" rifles and they both have 18" barrels

Untitled by Chrazy-Chris, on Flickr

The AR is a very similar barrel profile - DPMS MK12. I love the way it handles. I think an 18" heavy barrel is ideal for offhand shooting. The length and weight help stabilize when shooting offhand. Pair either of these up with a set of simple shooting sticks and you're even better off yet. That extra barrel and handguard space come in handy with said sticks.

All this silliness about 10.5" .223 being ideal for shooting 300yrds is just ar15.com'er BS. I like to be able to hit about a 4" animal vital zone. "Man sized target" etc is apocalyptic BS. When is the last time someone shot an intruder 300yrds away and was deemed justified by law in doing so?

Posted: 1/7/2015 4:35:57 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Can't wait for the range. Idea is: stock M193 cheap and deep and use the acog with the 55 gr stuff for 0-300 yards. Keep the 18 inch barrel to ensure a good velocity and fragmentation of the m193. Load 69 grain SMK for the Acog BDC to allow the rifle to reach out far.

I think its a do all rifle.

http://www.thenewrifleman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/IMG_20150106_100343.jpg

18 inch criterion chrome lined tapered barrel
Aero Precision M4E1

View Quote

18" is a good compromise.
How you liking the Aero M4E1 upper?
I have the same combo on my go to rifle, M4E1 + 12" keymod rail, only with a 16" SOCOM profile AR15Performance barrel.

Shot it out to 500 yards 2 weeks ago, ran a five shot 6" group on a silhouette using the BDC in my Vortex Razor 1-6, with my bulk reloads, no less. I was quite surprised.
Xtreme Bullets 55 gr FMJ over 22 gr H4198 CCI 41 primer in mixed headstamp brass.

Amazingly versatile rifle, the AR is.

Joe

Posted: 1/7/2015 4:37:58 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
Here are my two favorite "do all" rifles and they both have 18" barrels

<a href="https://flic.kr/p/qrh6Hi" target="_blank">https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8597/16038615839_ca69eeda56_c.jpg</a>Untitled by Chrazy-Chris, on Flickr

The AR is a very similar barrel profile - DPMS MK12. I love the way it handles. I think an 18" heavy barrel is ideal for offhand shooting. The length and weight help stabilize when shooting offhand. Pair either of these up with a set of simple shooting sticks and you're even better off yet. That extra barrel and handguard space come in handy with said sticks.

All this silliness about 10.5" .223 being ideal for shooting 300yrds is just ar15.com'er BS. I like to be able to hit about a 4" animal vital zone. "Man sized target" etc is apocalyptic BS. When is the last time someone shot an intruder 300yrds away and was deemed justified by law in doing so?

View Quote

And that must be because it is contrary to your personal BS? 11.5-12.5 is ideal IMO at those ranges... what makes you think that your 18" is more accurate than a 12.5" or 11.5"? Educate yourself before you come around with your misinformed/misguided BS this BS that rant. Maybe instead of assuming everything here is AR15.com'er "BS" you should put your ego aside and listen to people every now and then. There is nothing wrong with the 18" but if I could only own one AR, it wouldn't be an 18 for damn sure. 18" exceeds the general purpose range... that why they are called "SpecialPurposeRifles"

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/10/daniel-zimmerman/the-truth-about-barrel-length-muzzle-velocity-and-accuracy/

Posted: 1/7/2015 5:01:53 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:

I honestly feel like you don't have too much experience in this area. I have hunted a decent amount (wild pigs/deer on occasion) with an 11.5" at ranges from about 25m-200m and the 11.5" takes down animals just as effectively as my 14.5. I would honestly never know the difference... I have had runners w/ both lengths and every time it has been a shot placement deal... not a result of some diminished efficacy. Also, your standard length carbine sights have a smaller radius than my SBR's irons and unless you are running something shorter than a carbine length gas system, even w/ the FSB the sight radius will be the exact same. Irons suck for all practical applications anyways but if you want to get there, that is how it is. Pointing and shooting with a shorter barrel is going to be easier... I don't know you can argue otherwise. No one here was talking about tiny toy SBRs. The range mentioned was 0-300, HD ranges are infinitesimally short, and if you are hunting at ranges of 500 + you have no business running 556. Do you happen to own an SBR? If so, I would love to see the rifle you think is letting you down.

Beautifully done rifle OP

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Too long. SBR will down things just fine, 'peak velocity' or not.

Nope.

Also, one can engage targets just fine with a normal length carbine. In the field, it is actually easier and faster to point and snap shoot with a rifle, esp with irons, than a tiny sbr.

I honestly feel like you don't have too much experience in this area. I have hunted a decent amount (wild pigs/deer on occasion) with an 11.5" at ranges from about 25m-200m and the 11.5" takes down animals just as effectively as my 14.5. I would honestly never know the difference... I have had runners w/ both lengths and every time it has been a shot placement deal... not a result of some diminished efficacy. Also, your standard length carbine sights have a smaller radius than my SBR's irons and unless you are running something shorter than a carbine length gas system, even w/ the FSB the sight radius will be the exact same. Irons suck for all practical applications anyways but if you want to get there, that is how it is. Pointing and shooting with a shorter barrel is going to be easier... I don't know you can argue otherwise. No one here was talking about tiny toy SBRs. The range mentioned was 0-300, HD ranges are infinitesimally short, and if you are hunting at ranges of 500 + you have no business running 556. Do you happen to own an SBR? If so, I would love to see the rifle you think is letting you down.

Beautifully done rifle OP

It's obvious that you just have poor reading comprehension.

The OP specifically indicated he would be using M193 exclusively, which is a heavily velocity dependent round.

M193 has roughly the same velocity out of an 18" tube as a 20" while keeping the same sight radius / handguards and saving some length and weight.

Also "Homeland Defense" doesn't mean home defense.

Homeland refers to the country, AKA USA. So he is talking about a rifle that he could use for everything from foreign invasion, SHTF, foreign or domestic occupied forces on the streets, etc.

Which is also why he is buying M193 because it's a decent general purpose round that he can "buy cheap and stack deep". Don't need to stack anything deep for home defense, can use your 20 round premium box of self defense ammo.

Posted: 1/7/2015 5:21:27 PM EDT

[#19]

Quote History

Quoted:

It's obvious that you just have poor reading comprehension.

The OP specifically indicated he would be using M193 exclusively, which is a heavily velocity dependent round.

M193 has roughly the same velocity out of an 18" tube as a 20" while keeping the same sight radius / handguards and saving some length and weight.

Also "Homeland Defense" doesn't mean home defense.

Homeland refers to the country, AKA USA. So he is talking about a rifle that he could use for everything from foreign invasion, SHTF, foreign or domestic occupied forces on the streets, etc.

Which is also why he is buying M193 because it's a decent general purpose round that he can "buy cheap and stack deep". Don't need to stack anything deep for home defense, can use your 20 round premium box of self defense ammo.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Too long. SBR will down things just fine, 'peak velocity' or not.

Nope.

Also, one can engage targets just fine with a normal length carbine. In the field, it is actually easier and faster to point and snap shoot with a rifle, esp with irons, than a tiny sbr.

I honestly feel like you don't have too much experience in this area. I have hunted a decent amount (wild pigs/deer on occasion) with an 11.5" at ranges from about 25m-200m and the 11.5" takes down animals just as effectively as my 14.5. I would honestly never know the difference... I have had runners w/ both lengths and every time it has been a shot placement deal... not a result of some diminished efficacy. Also, your standard length carbine sights have a smaller radius than my SBR's irons and unless you are running something shorter than a carbine length gas system, even w/ the FSB the sight radius will be the exact same. Irons suck for all practical applications anyways but if you want to get there, that is how it is. Pointing and shooting with a shorter barrel is going to be easier... I don't know you can argue otherwise. No one here was talking about tiny toy SBRs. The range mentioned was 0-300, HD ranges are infinitesimally short, and if you are hunting at ranges of 500 + you have no business running 556. Do you happen to own an SBR? If so, I would love to see the rifle you think is letting you down.

Beautifully done rifle OP

It's obvious that you just have poor reading comprehension.

The OP specifically indicated he would be using M193 exclusively, which is a heavily velocity dependent round.

M193 has roughly the same velocity out of an 18" tube as a 20" while keeping the same sight radius / handguards and saving some length and weight.

Also "Homeland Defense" doesn't mean home defense.

Homeland refers to the country, AKA USA. So he is talking about a rifle that he could use for everything from foreign invasion, SHTF, foreign or domestic occupied forces on the streets, etc.

Which is also why he is buying M193 because it's a decent general purpose round that he can "buy cheap and stack deep". Don't need to stack anything deep for home defense, can use your 20 round premium box of self defense ammo.

He didn't talk about hunting either... i was mainly going off the 0-300 remark but he did say "do all" rifle which encompasses both hunting and home defense so I don't think you have much room to go around hating on people's reading comprehension skills

. And yes you are right about m193... bottom line tho is m193 sucks and really isn't going to be very effective out of any barrel despite that 300fps jump from 11.5 to 18. I personally wouldn't use it for anything other than plinking but what the OP uses is his call. You can load MUCH better ammunition for a somewhat comparable price if you reload.

Posted: 1/7/2015 5:26:18 PM EDT

[#20]

Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I think M193 is great, and a very good general purpose round. You say it is not effective, but it reliably fragments in gel and tissue within its velocity threshold and can do tremendous damage when it does. It has killed a lot of people all over the world who would testify to its effectiveness.

You're right about one thing, he did say "RIFLE"!

Posted: 1/7/2015 5:26:34 PM EDT

[#21]

Too long. SBR will down things just fine, 'peak velocity' or not.

View Quote

Agreed. I consider my 12.5" my most flexible AR.

Posted: 1/7/2015 5:57:41 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I think M193 is great, and a very good general purpose round. You say it is not effective, but it reliably fragments in gel and tissue within its velocity threshold and can do tremendous damage when it does. It has killed a lot of people all over the world who would testify to its effectiveness.

You're right about one thing, he did say "RIFLE"!

View Quote

Haha that we will do. Despite your rather tempting argument for m193 out of an 18, I think I will continue on with my 70gr Barnes TSX out of my 11.5"

. I do like 18" rifles

it's just not my all purpose choice. If I lived in prairie country, my opinion may be different.

Posted: 1/7/2015 6:04:46 PM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:

Haha that we will do. Despite your rather tempting argument for m193 out of an 18, I think I will continue on with my 70gr Barnes TSX out of my 11.5"

. I do like 18" rifles

it's just not my all purpose choice. If I lived in prairie country, my opinion may be different.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I think M193 is great, and a very good general purpose round. You say it is not effective, but it reliably fragments in gel and tissue within its velocity threshold and can do tremendous damage when it does. It has killed a lot of people all over the world who would testify to its effectiveness.

You're right about one thing, he did say "RIFLE"!

Haha that we will do. Despite your rather tempting argument for m193 out of an 18, I think I will continue on with my 70gr Barnes TSX out of my 11.5"

. I do like 18" rifles

it's just not my all purpose choice. If I lived in prairie country, my opinion may be different.

That's great, for current non societal collapse, but how many of those rounds can you realistically store for long term in case of SHTF (or even a gun ban) with no hope of resupply?

What if you get separated from your stash? You are likely to find yourself in a situation where you'll have to use whatever ammo type is available, and be happy to have it!

How effective is your ultra short barrel with regular fmj?

That's the beauty about longer barrels (the 5.56 was designed to be fired out of a 20" barrel), they are effective with specialty rounds, but if you are forced to resort to FMJ, they are still effective! That's not to mention things like balance, more handgaurd grip / attachment area, much better sight radius, flatter trajectory, more distance, etc.

Posted: 1/7/2015 7:25:25 PM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:

That's great, for current non societal collapse, but how many of those rounds can you realistically store for long term in case of SHTF (or even a gun ban) with no hope of resupply?

What if you get separated from your stash? You are likely to find yourself in a situation where you'll have to use whatever ammo type is available, and be happy to have it!

How effective is your ultra short barrel with regular fmj?

That's the beauty about longer barrels (the 5.56 was designed to be fired out of a 20" barrel), they are effective with specialty rounds, but if you are forced to resort to FMJ, they are still effective! That's not to mention things like balance, more handgaurd grip / attachment area, much better sight radius, flatter trajectory, more distance, etc.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I think M193 is great, and a very good general purpose round. You say it is not effective, but it reliably fragments in gel and tissue within its velocity threshold and can do tremendous damage when it does. It has killed a lot of people all over the world who would testify to its effectiveness.

You're right about one thing, he did say "RIFLE"!

Haha that we will do. Despite your rather tempting argument for m193 out of an 18, I think I will continue on with my 70gr Barnes TSX out of my 11.5"

. I do like 18" rifles

it's just not my all purpose choice. If I lived in prairie country, my opinion may be different.

That's great, for current non societal collapse, but how many of those rounds can you realistically store for long term in case of SHTF (or even a gun ban) with no hope of resupply?

What if you get separated from your stash? You are likely to find yourself in a situation where you'll have to use whatever ammo type is available, and be happy to have it!

How effective is your ultra short barrel with regular fmj?

That's the beauty about longer barrels (the 5.56 was designed to be fired out of a 20" barrel), they are effective with specialty rounds, but if you are forced to resort to FMJ, they are still effective! That's not to mention things like balance, more handgaurd grip / attachment area, much better sight radius, flatter trajectory, more distance, etc.

A bullet doesn't need to fragment to be effective. Not everyone will be hopped up on PCP when SHTF.

People on this forum who bow to fragmentation and 'perfect' round performance and who try to match grains to rifle lengths more often than not have never been on a two way range, much less have been shot or near someone who has been shot.

In a 'societal collapse' as you mention, there will be plenty animals who can and will be put down or deterred by 'ineffective rounds'.

But I digress- use what you want and enjoy your build

Another AR in the hands of someone is another win for us.

Posted: 1/7/2015 7:26:47 PM EDT

[#25]

I have no problem with this.

Posted: 1/7/2015 7:34:32 PM EDT

[#26]

I did mention using 69 grain handloads when I want to reach out further. I think my trajectory map will be right on tarrget. A 69 SMK running at 2700 fps maps perfect to a TA31F.

So yes the rifle vs carbine has different philosophy, but consider the following:

The rifle has less concussion when utilized with modern compensators and it further improves in control over carbines.

Velocity never hurts, and when shooting at a distant target having less drop only helps mitigate some shooter error in misjudging distance.

I can buy federal M193 at Walmart. That's easy to get.

While I cannot argue against modern loadings (such as the aforementioned Barnes TSX) I can always say, logistically I have one primary load for all the rifles in my home and it has the beneficial characteristics of being cheap, plentiful, and is still quite disruptive to tissue.

Length is an issue for the end user to determine. I have my ccw in the car, so that's way shorter than a carbine... But if I need my rifle, I want a rifle.

I wasn't able to measure the diameters before reinstalling everything on that criterion. I will ask criterion in the AM. Sorry! Oh BTW Blain: it is the hybrid diameter... Initially they accidentally sent me HBAR and I was like... Uh, wait... But they fixed the issue promptly.

Posted: 1/7/2015 7:45:49 PM EDT

[#27]

My first build last year used that barrel, I'm happy with it. Pre dimpled for lo pro gas block is definitely a plus.

Posted: 1/7/2015 11:24:52 PM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
I did mention using 69 grain handloads when I want to reach out further. I think my trajectory map will be right on tarrget. A 69 SMK running at 2700 fps maps perfect to a TA31F.

http://www.thenewrifleman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Screenshot_2015-01-07-17-04-21.png

So yes the rifle vs carbine has different philosophy, but consider the following:

The rifle has less concussion when utilized with modern compensators and it further improves in control over carbines.

Velocity never hurts, and when shooting at a distant target having less drop only helps mitigate some shooter error in misjudging distance.

I can buy federal M193 at Walmart. That's easy to get.

While I cannot argue against modern loadings (such as the aforementioned Barnes TSX) I can always say, logistically I have one primary load for all the rifles in my home and it has the beneficial characteristics of being cheap, plentiful, and is still quite disruptive to tissue.

Length is an issue for the end user to determine. I have my ccw in the car, so that's way shorter than a carbine... But if I need my rifle, I want a rifle.

I wasn't able to measure the diameters before reinstalling everything on that criterion. I will ask criterion in the AM. Sorry! Oh BTW Blain: it is the hybrid diameter... Initially they accidentally sent me HBAR and I was like... Uh, wait... But they fixed the issue promptly.

View Quote

Interesting. The picture on Midwest Industries site looks like it has a thinner profile than what you posted. Maybe because of the angle you have it with some of it going away from the camera?

Posted: 1/7/2015 11:47:34 PM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:

That's great, for current non societal collapse, but how many of those rounds can you realistically store for long term in case of SHTF (or even a gun ban) with no hope of resupply?

What if you get separated from your stash? You are likely to find yourself in a situation where you'll have to use whatever ammo type is available, and be happy to have it!

How effective is your ultra short barrel with regular fmj?

That's the beauty about longer barrels (the 5.56 was designed to be fired out of a 20" barrel), they are effective with specialty rounds, but if you are forced to resort to FMJ, they are still effective! That's not to mention things like balance, more handgaurd grip / attachment area, much better sight radius, flatter trajectory, more distance, etc.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I think M193 is great, and a very good general purpose round. You say it is not effective, but it reliably fragments in gel and tissue within its velocity threshold and can do tremendous damage when it does. It has killed a lot of people all over the world who would testify to its effectiveness.

You're right about one thing, he did say "RIFLE"!

Haha that we will do. Despite your rather tempting argument for m193 out of an 18, I think I will continue on with my 70gr Barnes TSX out of my 11.5"

. I do like 18" rifles

it's just not my all purpose choice. If I lived in prairie country, my opinion may be different.

That's great, for current non societal collapse, but how many of those rounds can you realistically store for long term in case of SHTF (or even a gun ban) with no hope of resupply?

What if you get separated from your stash? You are likely to find yourself in a situation where you'll have to use whatever ammo type is available, and be happy to have it!

How effective is your ultra short barrel with regular fmj?

That's the beauty about longer barrels (the 5.56 was designed to be fired out of a 20" barrel), they are effective with specialty rounds, but if you are forced to resort to FMJ, they are still effective! That's not to mention things like balance, more handgaurd grip / attachment area, much better sight radius, flatter trajectory, more distance, etc.

Enough to where if I make it through all of them, I will have had more than a few opportunities to scavenge some more ammo. I load about 150 per month and have about 1800 on hand. Expensive, somewhat... about twice as much as m193 but in a bad situation I'll take 4k of these over 8k of m193. Not saying that is what you should do or would do but I rather be shooting a round that I trust to do the job. I also buy m855 to shoot... i am down to about 800 of that but I typically try to keep at least 1-2k of that. You can load 75gr Hornady BTHP for about the same as you can buy factory m193.

Posted: 1/7/2015 11:53:30 PM EDT

[#30]

Hmm, I really like the idea of this rifle. I have a spare Rainier ultramatch 18" SPR barrel lying around and I may do something like this. Wish it were a little thinner for this purpose though.

Posted: 1/8/2015 12:00:01 AM EDT

[#31]

I would love a pencil profile 18" in 556, 1/7, chrome, with a pinned FSB...

Posted: 1/8/2015 12:09:24 AM EDT

[#32]

That is a nice rifle OP! Maybe my next one will be a 18"

Posted: 1/8/2015 12:44:09 AM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:

Interesting. The picture on Midwest Industries site looks like it has a thinner profile than what you posted. Maybe because of the angle you have it with some of it going away from the camera?

http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/images/products/crit18_barrel.jpg

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I did mention using 69 grain handloads when I want to reach out further. I think my trajectory map will be right on tarrget. A 69 SMK running at 2700 fps maps perfect to a TA31F.

http://www.thenewrifleman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Screenshot_2015-01-07-17-04-21.png

So yes the rifle vs carbine has different philosophy, but consider the following:

The rifle has less concussion when utilized with modern compensators and it further improves in control over carbines.

Velocity never hurts, and when shooting at a distant target having less drop only helps mitigate some shooter error in misjudging distance.

I can buy federal M193 at Walmart. That's easy to get.

While I cannot argue against modern loadings (such as the aforementioned Barnes TSX) I can always say, logistically I have one primary load for all the rifles in my home and it has the beneficial characteristics of being cheap, plentiful, and is still quite disruptive to tissue.

Length is an issue for the end user to determine. I have my ccw in the car, so that's way shorter than a carbine... But if I need my rifle, I want a rifle.

I wasn't able to measure the diameters before reinstalling everything on that criterion. I will ask criterion in the AM. Sorry! Oh BTW Blain: it is the hybrid diameter... Initially they accidentally sent me HBAR and I was like... Uh, wait... But they fixed the issue promptly.

Interesting. The picture on Midwest Industries site looks like it has a thinner profile than what you posted. Maybe because of the angle you have it with some of it going away from the camera?

http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/images/products/crit18_barrel.jpg

The picture actually matches it quite well. It must be my angle.

Posted: 1/8/2015 12:52:30 AM EDT

[#34]

I think the original concept would be an exceptional rifle due mainly to the barrel quality, but the dual-ammo concept is essentially bankrupt in the tactical sense. I believe you will find that mil-grade M193 may shoot to a different point than the 69 grain handloads, which pretty much kicks the leg out from under the whole idea. Plus, nobody would carry two kinds of ammo to use with a scoped rifle for the above reason as well as confusion/mistakes at inconvenient times. You would be far better off to simply use the best quality heavy ammo you can manage, zero the rifle with it and enjoy it. At least for my neck of the woods, a 16" AR w/ 1:7, mid-gas, mil-quality CL modified HBAR with fixed stock and 4X ACOG shooting only 75 gr PRVI offers acceptable weight/handling and good accuracy (calculated 6" at 400 based on the 100 yd group) with all the benefits of a heavy bullet. There are basically no 'wide open spaces' here. Of course, I don't load ammo either, but I do have a limited supply of 62 gr loads that I had made for me a few years ago by a legendary loader in my area. This is really good stuff that I recently decided to use only in my Colt 6721 w/EOTech, so I sighted it in which required only small changes from the previous mil M855. Then I shot some PRVI 'M855' just to see, and it printed the same as the handloads. So that eased my mind about the remaining 700 or so rounds of the handloads - I guess they're not really as important to me now.
So build the rifle and do what you want with it. If you can prove me wrong with the two very different loads not requiring windage adjustments, so be it. The rifle you pictured looks great to me - I go for the uncluttered utilility of it. Hope it works out for you.

Posted: 1/8/2015 4:54:42 AM EDT

[#35]

I love my 18" rifle. She is heavier than my LW 16" that I have for the wifey but she is my favorite.

Posted: 1/8/2015 5:13:15 AM EDT

[#36]

i've really wanted an 18 inch stainless barreled bcm upper for a while now. but they don't offer one without a handguard already installed so i always buy something less expensive before i get one in my price range

and yeah i'd be dropping an acog right on top of it if i had the choice. that's a really nice gun.

Posted: 1/8/2015 5:40:41 AM EDT

[#37]

looks good man.

Posted: 1/8/2015 6:11:46 AM EDT

[#38]

Nice rifle, I've got a buddy that likes 18" barrels, too. They tend to handle a lot better than I expected.
I tend towards shorter barrels on my guns, because I like suppressors, though.

Posted: 1/8/2015 6:32:57 AM EDT

[#39]

There is nothing wrong with an 18"/SPR for home defense. It isn't THAT big, and some of us recall the good ol' days before M4s became so prevalent and we were conducting CQB with M16s and MP5s.

Posted: 1/8/2015 7:20:47 AM EDT

[#40]

Btw, I just downloaded the Strelock app from the picture that you posted. I've played with it for 2 minutes and it's well worth the money already

Posted: 1/8/2015 8:46:47 AM EDT

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:

Enough to where if I make it through all of them, I will have had more than a few opportunities to scavenge some more ammo. I load about 150 per month and have about 1800 on hand. Expensive, somewhat... about twice as much as m193 but in a bad situation I'll take 4k of these over 8k of m193. Not saying that is what you should do or would do but I rather be shooting a round that I trust to do the job. I also buy m855 to shoot... i am down to about 800 of that but I typically try to keep at least 1-2k of that. You can load 75gr Hornady BTHP for about the same as you can buy factory m193.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I think M193 is great, and a very good general purpose round. You say it is not effective, but it reliably fragments in gel and tissue within its velocity threshold and can do tremendous damage when it does. It has killed a lot of people all over the world who would testify to its effectiveness.

You're right about one thing, he did say "RIFLE"!

Haha that we will do. Despite your rather tempting argument for m193 out of an 18, I think I will continue on with my 70gr Barnes TSX out of my 11.5"

. I do like 18" rifles

it's just not my all purpose choice. If I lived in prairie country, my opinion may be different.

That's great, for current non societal collapse, but how many of those rounds can you realistically store for long term in case of SHTF (or even a gun ban) with no hope of resupply?

What if you get separated from your stash? You are likely to find yourself in a situation where you'll have to use whatever ammo type is available, and be happy to have it!

How effective is your ultra short barrel with regular fmj?

That's the beauty about longer barrels (the 5.56 was designed to be fired out of a 20" barrel), they are effective with specialty rounds, but if you are forced to resort to FMJ, they are still effective! That's not to mention things like balance, more handgaurd grip / attachment area, much better sight radius, flatter trajectory, more distance, etc.

Enough to where if I make it through all of them, I will have had more than a few opportunities to scavenge some more ammo. I load about 150 per month and have about 1800 on hand. Expensive, somewhat... about twice as much as m193 but in a bad situation I'll take 4k of these over 8k of m193. Not saying that is what you should do or would do but I rather be shooting a round that I trust to do the job. I also buy m855 to shoot... i am down to about 800 of that but I typically try to keep at least 1-2k of that. You can load 75gr Hornady BTHP for about the same as you can buy factory m193.

If you are forced to retreat from your AO and you leave your super special supply behind, what then?

Posted: 1/8/2015 9:41:06 AM EDT

[#42]

I believe the 5.56 AR platform is at its best in the 14.5 - 16" range.

There's a reason why the SR-25 platform was developed.

Nothing wrong with having 2 rifles

Posted: 1/8/2015 9:49:52 AM EDT

[#43]

Hows your eye relief with the scope so far forward? I ended up buying a larue rco mount because even mounted all the way back the eye relief on my acog was terrible.

Posted: 1/8/2015 10:21:39 AM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:
I believe the 5.56 AR platform is at its best in the 14.5 - 16" range.

There's a reason why the SR-25 platform was developed.

Nothing wrong with having 2 rifles

View Quote

Yup........I would stick with a 16 inch barrel AR.

Posted: 1/8/2015 10:48:06 AM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:

If you are forced to retreat from your AO and you leave your super special supply behind, what then?

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I think M193 is great, and a very good general purpose round. You say it is not effective, but it reliably fragments in gel and tissue within its velocity threshold and can do tremendous damage when it does. It has killed a lot of people all over the world who would testify to its effectiveness.

You're right about one thing, he did say "RIFLE"!

Haha that we will do. Despite your rather tempting argument for m193 out of an 18, I think I will continue on with my 70gr Barnes TSX out of my 11.5"

. I do like 18" rifles

it's just not my all purpose choice. If I lived in prairie country, my opinion may be different.

That's great, for current non societal collapse, but how many of those rounds can you realistically store for long term in case of SHTF (or even a gun ban) with no hope of resupply?

What if you get separated from your stash? You are likely to find yourself in a situation where you'll have to use whatever ammo type is available, and be happy to have it!

How effective is your ultra short barrel with regular fmj?

That's the beauty about longer barrels (the 5.56 was designed to be fired out of a 20" barrel), they are effective with specialty rounds, but if you are forced to resort to FMJ, they are still effective! That's not to mention things like balance, more handgaurd grip / attachment area, much better sight radius, flatter trajectory, more distance, etc.

Enough to where if I make it through all of them, I will have had more than a few opportunities to scavenge some more ammo. I load about 150 per month and have about 1800 on hand. Expensive, somewhat... about twice as much as m193 but in a bad situation I'll take 4k of these over 8k of m193. Not saying that is what you should do or would do but I rather be shooting a round that I trust to do the job. I also buy m855 to shoot... i am down to about 800 of that but I typically try to keep at least 1-2k of that. You can load 75gr Hornady BTHP for about the same as you can buy factory m193.

If you are forced to retreat from your AO and you leave your super special supply behind, what then?

Then I would be in the same situation if I were forced to retreat from my hypothetical supply of m193. I would have to find another option and some marauding dbags would be having a super kick ass day with my fancy-smancy ammo.

Posted: 1/8/2015 1:06:36 PM EDT

[#46]

The difference is if you are forced out and do resupply, you are VERY likely to resupply with commonly available ammo IE mil surplus or other generic FMJ ammo, ala M193 / M855 and NOT specialty ammo like barnes.

As a result, you are not in the same situation as a longer barrel which will produce more velocity for fragmentation and terminal effectiveness with whatever ammo type you are forced to use vs. restricting yourself to an ultra short barrel.

Posted: 1/8/2015 1:12:11 PM EDT

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:
Hows your eye relief with the scope so far forward? I ended up buying a larue rco mount because even mounted all the way back the eye relief on my acog was terrible.

View Quote

I shoot Bose to charging handle so eye relief is where it should be for me.

Everyone should have a ballistic calculator on their phone. Everyone.

Posted: 1/8/2015 1:49:28 PM EDT

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:
The difference is if you are forced out and do resupply, you are VERY likely to resupply with commonly available ammo IE mil surplus or other generic FMJ ammo, ala M193 / M855 and NOT specialty ammo like barnes.

As a result, you are not in the same situation as a longer barrel which will produce more velocity for fragmentation and terminal effectiveness with whatever ammo type you are forced to use vs. restricting yourself to an ultra short barrel.

View Quote

I started using that ammo before I got my first SBR. I am not concerned about the shorter barrel (11.5 is about as short as I'm willing to go personally)... i would be concerned about m193 out of any barrel length. Again, I don't use the ammo I use because I feel the need to compensate for the shorter barrel... I use it because I feel like that is the most effective round I can put together for a 556 rifle in general.