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Posted: 11/20/2014 2:16:32 PM EDT
 upload picsHey all, im starting to get pissed with my rifle.
Im shooting a rainier arms select 16" medcon-1/8 barrelled AR, running BH red box 77gr. leupold mark AR 3-9 Mil dot scope, GG&G mount, SS-A trigger with JP yellow springs in it. I can barely ever get sub moa out of it. I had a 5/8" group once and a 3/4". Usually it hovers about 1-1.25" 3-shot groups. I get fliers and im on a bench or ruck prone, both with rear bags. I just did the above group, single fed em, and slow fired to see where things are going. this is 100m. Is this all me? Every time i go to the range the 100m zero seems to be off. If i dont confirm @100m its jacked 200-500m. any thoughts? Its really getting old. I should be cloverleafing @100m. Handloads produce the same groups as bh red box. is it just a bad day bad shooter scenario? |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 2:21:22 PM EDT
[#1]
Try different ammo weights I have had this happen to me too and find the weight that your gun likes....
Also check your scope mounts...and possibly barrel tightness. I suspect it is the ammo |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 2:32:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Make sure everything on your rifle is tight. That's step 1.
That group at 100m doesn't look too terribly bad to me. Obtaining sub-MOA accuracy is not an easy stroll in the park. Even if your rifle/ammo is capable of it, you as the shooter have to do your part too. Does it group better or worse with other brands? What all brands have you tried? This should go without saying, but obviously different rifles shoot different ammo differently. Go try some FGMM and Remington Premier and see what happens. |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 2:35:48 PM EDT
[#3]
1) Change up the ammo, try 75gr. either federal or hornady
2) Check for anything with a screw or clamp to make sure its tight 3) Take another "good" shooter with you. 3a) bench it well enough to take as much of the shooter out of the equation as you can. |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 2:54:54 PM EDT
[#4]
Vertical looks pretty consistent as I would expect from BH ammo, do you typically get horizontal stringing?
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Posted: 11/20/2014 3:01:49 PM EDT
[#5]
Ammo for sure. My girl has a 1/8 lothar walther stainless barrel in her AR. When we first went to shoot it I bought the heavy match 75 and 77gr stuff. It shot okay. Did best with match 55 and 64 gr ammo though.
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Posted: 11/20/2014 3:03:12 PM EDT
[#6]
If your optics are tight, and you can't find anything wrong with the rifle, it might just be a lemon of a barrel. It happens, I had a BCM 18" 410SS barrel that shot like yours. Got rid of it for a Douglas and now it shoots lights out.
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Posted: 11/20/2014 3:09:25 PM EDT
[#7]
I found one of my rifles shoots much tighter groups with 69gr FGMM and then opens up with other. It is all about finding the load for your rifle.
My M1a will do no better than 2MOA with 175gr FGMM but if I switch to 168 it is consistently sub MOA at most 1MOA. Turn around and my Winchester M70 can eat 175 or 168 and put up numbers that are almost identical. Those groups are not terrible. Work on your breath control shooting after exhaling and pausing your breathing till you break your shot. Work on making sure the rifle is LEVEL every time, check your parallax, hold the rifle and line up on it the same every time, shoot prone with a bi-pod, and just be consistent as possible every shot. The little things make all the difference because a bullet NEVER lies. |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 3:13:40 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
<a href="http://postimage.org/" target="_blank">http://s7.postimg.org/lltpxoe3f/20141120_130223.jpg</a>upload picsHey all, im starting to get pissed with my rifle. Im shooting a rainier arms select 16" medcon-1/8 barrelled AR, running BH red box 77gr. leupold mark AR 3-9 Mil dot scope, GG&G mount, SS-A trigger with JP yellow springs in it. I can barely ever get sub moa out of it. I had a 5/8" group once and a 3/4". Usually it hovers about 1-1.25" 3-shot groups. I get fliers and im on a bench or ruck prone, both with rear bags. I just did the above group, single fed em, and slow fired to see where things are going. this is 100m. Is this all me? Every time i go to the range the 100m zero seems to be off. If i dont confirm @100m its jacked 200-500m. any thoughts? Its really getting old. I should be cloverleafing @100m. Handloads produce the same groups as bh red box. is it just a bad day bad shooter scenario? Why change the springs on a Geissele? |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 3:16:06 PM EDT
[#9]
Thx for all the replies. I want a level bubble on my rail in the future.
The horizontal strings seem to happen. I dont ger much vert changes. So it could be im not reticle level. I did do decent with 55grn vmax stuff. Maybe im forcing the 77's on it. I want to be able to shoot them for 500m lead slinging, so i might have to go to a 1/8 barrep and work on my level and breathing. I was trying my best. I would be happy with 3/4 moa all day. Thats all i want. It just seems to change groups here and there. Im def no sniper.i just got back into slow fire group shooting. Thx guys. edit: the ssa was WAY too heavy for me.. I dont really like it. It creeps.....but less with the jp springs. I want a WALL and a break. Its mushy. Hate it but i already paid for it so.... Thisis a 3 shot from today as well. This is what i see usually. Still too loose for me. circles are the 1.5" ones.  |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 3:32:03 PM EDT
[#10]
Looks like bad trigger technique. You don't need a level and your reticle doesn't have to be perfectly level. Vertical stinging is usually a good sign of the shooter breathing while shooting. Find your natural point of aim, and squeeze a round off during your respiratory pause |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 3:35:27 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thx for all the replies. I want a level bubble on my rail in the future. The horizontal strings seem to happen. I dont ger much vert changes. So it could be im not reticle level. I did do decent with 55grn vmax stuff. Maybe im forcing the 77's on it. I want to be able to shoot them for 500m lead slinging, so i might have to go to a 1/8 barrep and work on my level and breathing. I was trying my best. I would be happy with 3/4 moa all day. Thats all i want. It just seems to change groups here and there. Im def no sniper.i just got back into slow fire group shooting. Thx guys. edit: the ssa was WAY too heavy for me.. I dont really like it. It creeps.....but less with the jp springs. I want a WALL and a break. Its mushy. Hate it but i already paid for it so.... Interesting feedback regarding your SSA. I wouldn't be too quick to rule out shooter error if you're seeing frequent horizontal stringing & 3/4 MOA "all day" is a LOT to ask when shooting gas guns, just my .02. I would consistently shoot prone, bagged rear, evenly pre-load your bipod but don't overdue it as that will induce stringing as well. Follow through w/ trigger pull, make sure your cheek-weld is consistent... I have to watch my tendency to clench my jaw when shooting as that will shift POI for me enough to open up a group. Aggressive gripping, pulling the rifle into your shoulder, poor body alignment with target are all form mistakes that will generate horizontal stringing. It may be ammo but I have several sub-MOA gas guns that will easily shoot poorly if I drop the ball w/ my part. Once I switched over to shooting suppressed it really opened my eyes to how your positioning & form impact POI.
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Posted: 11/20/2014 3:59:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like bad trigger technique. Stop jerking the trigger. You don't need a level and your reticle doesn't have to be perfectly level. Vertical stinging is usually a good sign of the shooter breathing while shooting. Find your natural point of aim, and squeeze a round off during your respiratory pause Gotta agree. OP, I would practice more dry firing with the rifle. You've complained about the trigger, if you're not happy, throw it on the EE and recoup some money and buy something you know you can shoot with, but until then, I would dry fire like crazy until you really know the trigger. |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 4:55:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thx for all the replies. I want a level bubble on my rail in the future. The horizontal strings seem to happen. I dont ger much vert changes. So it could be im not reticle level. I did do decent with 55grn vmax stuff. Maybe im forcing the 77's on it. I want to be able to shoot them for 500m lead slinging, so i might have to go to a 1/8 barrep and work on my level and breathing. I was trying my best. I would be happy with 3/4 moa all day. Thats all i want. It just seems to change groups here and there. Im def no sniper.i just got back into slow fire group shooting. Thx guys. edit: the ssa was WAY too heavy for me.. I dont really like it. It creeps.....but less with the jp springs. I want a WALL and a break. Its mushy. Hate it but i already paid for it so.... Thisis a 3 shot from today as well. This is what i see usually. Still too loose for me. circles are the 1.5" ones. <a href="http://postimage.org/" target="_blank">http://s4.postimg.org/5x2n01qel/20141120_124052.jpg</a> image hosting 30 mb that doesnt sound like any SSA i have used, call the shop |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 5:21:02 PM EDT
[#14]
Switch ammo. In my numerous years of experience with M16s, ARs, and hand loading, I have found that some AR barrels are really fussy about the loads put through them. I would suggest you work down in bullet weights and see how they behave in your barrel. As mentioned above, you need to assure your shooting skills are well honed. Most rifles shoot way better than we do!! Find a really experienced shooter to coach you a bit. Lots of factors play into consistently shooting sub MOA. Best of luck.
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Posted: 11/20/2014 6:08:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I found one of my rifles shoots much tighter groups with 69gr FGMM and then opens up with other. It is all about finding the load for your rifle. My M1a will do no better than 2MOA with 175gr FGMM but if I switch to 168 it is consistently sub MOA at most 1MOA. Turn around and my Winchester M70 can eat 175 or 168 and put up numbers that are almost identical. Funny, I have an M25 that does the same thing. HATES 175 GMM but loves the 168. 1/10 twist. Handloaded 175 SMKs and M118LR do fine out of it, just something about federal's load it doesn't like. |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 6:29:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Horizontal stringing of otherwise tight group = inconsistent and lateral trigger pressure. Trigger finger is very subtly pushing the trigger (and entire rifle) to the side. This is a technique issue. I am sometimes a self-inflicted victim of this. Fat part of pad of first joint of index finger straight back will fix that.
And either put the Geissele springs back in or sell it on EE and buy an SSA-E. |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 6:35:44 PM EDT
[#17]
I guess i will do a bunch of dry fire drills and work on fundamentals and see what I can do first. I will try some different loads as well. I could always have the gunsmith take it out, he always places first at the 1000yd shoots.
Yeah i was not really impressed with the trigger. Honestly I'd rather pickup an adjustable one (SSA-E correct?). I can send it back to Bill and see if its a bad one or something but i think it is what it is. MS556 Thanks for the info i will take note of that when i dry fire |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 6:46:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess i will do a bunch of dry fire drills and work on fundamentals and see what I can do first. I will try some different loads as well. I could always have the gunsmith take it out, he always places first at the 1000yd shoots. Yeah i was not really impressed with the trigger. Honestly I'd rather pickup an adjustable one (SSA-E correct?). I can send it back to Bill and see if its a bad one or something but i think it is what it is. MS556 Thanks for the info i will take note of that when i dry fire SSA-E is not adjustable, you would need one of the hi-speed triggers |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 6:47:12 PM EDT
[#19]
For me, its always a loose scope.
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Posted: 11/20/2014 7:21:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Is your Natural Point of Aim centered? Are you gripping the grip or is your hand low and hanging off the tail end with your trigger finger holding on?
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Posted: 11/20/2014 7:43:03 PM EDT
[#21]
Like others have said:
Have someone else shoot it Try different brands and weights(I never had a good box of BH) If you can not find a weight it likes check for loose parts Call Rainier |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 7:55:54 PM EDT
[#22]
One time I was wondering why I was printing all over a target and couldn't figure it out the whole range trip and ended up going home with no clue. Later when inspecting my rifle I figured out the optic had vibrated loose and the mount from the factory wasn't secured with loctite, check out your mount maybe
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Posted: 11/20/2014 8:39:34 PM EDT
[#23]
Horizontal stringing ??
Usually trigger pull related. Either you or the trigger itself. Personally I despise a heavy AR trigger pull. At least for me. As has been said, have another shooter have a try with it. gd |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 9:53:59 PM EDT
[#24]
I've had the same issue with a noveske barrel, it would group 1.5" @ 100yM with 75gr BTHP's. I pushed out to 300M just to see if i could get on paper, the group was under 3" @ 300M (submoa) what gives? Tried some 69grs got around the same results.
I would try some farther distance. |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 11:07:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've had the same issue with a noveske barrel, it would group 1.5" @ 100yM with 75gr BTHP's. I pushed out to 300M just to see if i could get on paper, the group was under 3" @ 300M (submoa) what gives? Tried some 69grs got around the same results. I would try some farther distance. What barrel length? Bullets might have needed more time to stabilize
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Posted: 11/21/2014 12:08:01 AM EDT
[#26]
Try various ammo.
I took some 77,75,69,64,55, and 50 grain factory loads to the range one day.... Oddly enough the best groups were with the American eagle 50 grain varmint stuff, I was baffled. Shame I can't find it locally any more. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 2:07:32 AM EDT
[#27]
The leupold eyepiece lock ring isnt locking. I remember it doing this regularly. Im gonna blue locktite that sucker. Might be causing reticle movement. Gonna work on breathing and pulling trigger to the rear with the pad of my finger. I know the basics...mayne im just getting sloppy.
And moa better be possible. Rainier guarantees sub moa with match ammo. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 2:29:28 AM EDT
[#28]
sounds like something is loose.
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Posted: 11/21/2014 9:27:42 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The leupold eyepiece lock ring isnt locking. I remember it doing this regularly. Im gonna blue locktite that sucker. Might be causing reticle movement. Gonna work on breathing and pulling trigger to the rear with the pad of my finger. I know the basics...mayne im just getting sloppy. And moa better be possible. Rainier guarantees sub moa with match ammo. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 9:49:30 AM EDT
[#30]
It seems to me like you keep trying everything EXCEPT what should be the first step. Lock it into a bench and shoot it to take human error out of the equation. As others have said, it doesn't look like the scope, the mount, the barrel, the ammo or anything. It looks like a classic case of the gun shooting better than you. I'm not trying to knock your shooting, every one of my guns shoots better than me. But it's a reality. Nearly every accuracy issue people have is them not the gun and the way to eliminate that issue first is to bench shoot it with the gun locked down. If you do this and it still shoots groups like this, only THEN should you move on to other diagnoses. You have the cart before the horse. When troubleshooting, eliminate variables, then isolate potential issues. In this case, eliminate the biggest variable of all, the shooter, first.
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Posted: 11/21/2014 6:47:17 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Try various ammo. I took some 77,75,69,64,55, and 50 grain factory loads to the range one day.... Oddly enough the best groups were with the American eagle 50 grain varmint stuff, I was baffled. Shame I can't find it locally any more. Others have said it and it's probably part of the equation. You sounded like you want the 77's to work but sometimes they don't. I haven't had good luck with the sierra bullets. Not sure why but the Hornady pills seem to do much better in all of my AR's. And for some reason the 52's are magical. Yes in even 1/7 and 1/8 barrels. I think they have been the most accurate. And then one weird thing is I would consistently get MOA +/- with this wally world WWB 40 round VP 55 grain FMJ they used to sell. Weird. But for the heavier stuff, the 68's and 75's have been solid performers IMHO. There might be some other issues going on with your shooting or your bench or technique or something and all I can say is I've always had to work hard to make sure that rifle isn't moving much in order to take myself out of the equation. With bags and such. And taking my time. I have found I got my best results prone on the concrete with bags front and back. A bipod is a good thing but it isn't typically as accurate as some bags, in my hands. If your just wanting to get super small groups. Bipods are for real snipers that don't have bags to drag around everywhere with them. Or hunting and such. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 7:11:59 PM EDT
[#32]
I agree with the post above mine. Lots of rifles don't like the heavier bullets. I own a Noveske SPR that won't do better than 2" with Sierra 77's but shoots cloverleafs with 50 grain V-Max bullets. Go figure. Don't force it to love 77's. Try some match 50's and 55's.
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Posted: 11/21/2014 7:33:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Walk down the weight and sled the rifle
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Posted: 11/21/2014 7:34:04 PM EDT
[#34]
Heavy bullets (75/77) shoot best at longer ranges. That's what they are designed for, 200 yards minimum distance. It takes some distance before they straighten out and fly right. It doesn't make sense but it works.
Virtually every rifle I own shoots 52/53 grain match bullets better at 100 yards than any other weight. It doesn't matter if it has a 1/7, 1/8 or 1/9, these light match bullets hammer at short ranges. Again, that's what light weight match bullets are designed for, 100 to 200 yard bench rest style shooting. They suffer more at longer distances because they shed velocity too quickly. I feel 69 grain Sierra Match Kings is the best all around bullet out to 300 yards. They shoot very well at 100 too. Try some dry firing drills at the bench just to see what happens to your crosshairs when the hammer drops. Be sure to hold the trigger all the way to the rear with each shot fired. Only release it after the rifle has completely settled after recoiling. This technique is called "follow through" and is much more consistent on target. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 7:51:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Im using the GG&G 30mm mount with their delrin 1" reducers. It locks in hard with the accu-cam.
I built this for 100-500m steel targets and i shoot that weekly, but every time i gotta redo shit when i confirm my zero. My 100m shots are bothering me. I can try grouping at the longer ranges to see if they tighten up. If this barrel wont shoot 77gr (what its guaranteed to shoot well with) its worthless to me. I need a rifle that can shoot the ammo i need to be using for 500m. i betcha if i pkunk down for a kreiger this trend will stop. I know all the basics. Army taught me all that. I got the followthough idea, i always do that on my rifles and pistols. I hold then release. i will see if i can get a lead sled and make these holes shrink. Im tired of this. Im just butt hurt i have like $1800 into this and i thought i bought a legit barrel and now i am second guesing it. |
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Posted: 11/21/2014 10:57:14 PM EDT
[#36]
Every time I get random groups, a screw in the mount is loose....
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Posted: 11/22/2014 12:16:03 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Try various ammo. I took some 77,75,69,64,55, and 50 grain factory loads to the range one day.... Oddly enough the best groups were with the American eagle 50 grain varmint stuff, I was baffled. Shame I can't find it locally any more. Random Info tends to stick in my head. One thing ive seen a patern in on this site is that people often post comments about 55 and under grain ammo surprising them and giving good groups compared to heavier ammo. Makes me curious. |
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Posted: 11/22/2014 2:47:16 AM EDT
[#38]
I'm sure you already checked it... I saw this same thing happening to a 3000 dollar setup, turned out to be the rear scope ring worked a little loose on the rail.
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Posted: 11/22/2014 1:19:02 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What barrel length? Bullets might have needed more time to stabilize Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've had the same issue with a noveske barrel, it would group 1.5" @ 100yM with 75gr BTHP's. I pushed out to 300M just to see if i could get on paper, the group was under 3" @ 300M (submoa) what gives? Tried some 69grs got around the same results. I would try some farther distance. What barrel length? Bullets might have needed more time to stabilize Time to stabilize??? Barrel length has nothing to do with stabilization other than velocity which translates to rotational speed. Twist rate is the primary factor for bullet stabilization not barrel length. |
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Posted: 11/22/2014 1:24:00 PM EDT
[#40]
If your Geissele trigger "creeps" and is "too heavy" there's something wrong, and probably not something lighter springs will fix. Have you contacted Geissele? The SSA should be smooth as glass and it's spec'd at 4.5 pounds total pull. If that's a lot for you, I'm curious why.
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Posted: 11/22/2014 3:06:39 PM EDT
[#41]
I actually had pretty much the same setup as you. 18" rainier med con barrel + mark ar mod 1 3-9x40.
It couldn't group worth shit. 4moa was standard with 77smk or m193. This may not help you much, but I switched to a nightforce nsx 2.5-10x42 and an aero precision barrel and groups tightened up really nice. 1.6ish moa with m193, haven't really tested any match ammo yet. Also, you should get an ssa-e if you want a super crisp break. |
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Posted: 11/22/2014 3:54:38 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What barrel length? Bullets might have needed more time to stabilize Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've had the same issue with a noveske barrel, it would group 1.5" @ 100yM with 75gr BTHP's. I pushed out to 300M just to see if i could get on paper, the group was under 3" @ 300M (submoa) what gives? Tried some 69grs got around the same results. I would try some farther distance. What barrel length? Bullets might have needed more time to stabilize Or you just have too much mag for 100m and you were trying to compensate too hard. |
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Posted: 11/22/2014 4:30:13 PM EDT
[#43]
Barrel properly torqued to the upper?
Is the face of the upper square to the barrel? Muzzle device properly torqued? Is the gas block contacting the rail? Is the barrel excessively copper fouled? |
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Posted: 11/22/2014 4:48:19 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Im using the GG&G 30mm mount with their delrin 1" reducers. It locks in hard with the accu-cam. I built this for 100-500m steel targets and i shoot that weekly, but every time i gotta redo shit when i confirm my zero. My 100m shots are bothering me. I can try grouping at the longer ranges to see if they tighten up. If this barrel wont shoot 77gr (what its guaranteed to shoot well with) its worthless to me. I need a rifle that can shoot the ammo i need to be using for 500m. i betcha if i pkunk down for a kreiger this trend will stop. I know all the basics. Army taught me all that. I got the followthough idea, i always do that on my rifles and pistols. I hold then release. i will see if i can get a lead sled and make these holes shrink. Im tired of this. Im just butt hurt i have like $1800 into this and i thought i bought a legit barrel and now i am second guesing it. rainier can put out a good barrel, I have one in my MATEN 
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Posted: 11/22/2014 5:37:10 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuote Historyyeah that's what my groups should be. I had a PM from someone on here that told me they put 500rnds through the exact same barrel and never got it to run well. they swapped and it stopped the issue. I built the upper. i didn't bugger it up. I can put TQ to it and get an exact reading if need be. I levelled everything (upper,rail, scope) when I installed it. the scope is tight. I have the YHM mount on there with a peel washer and tq'd it from hand tight 1/8 turn before clocking. threads are concentric and the suppressor mounts fine when I use it. I have repaired AR's & MG's as a job for 6 years. it's either I cannot shoot for shit, or the barrel is shit. I'm gonna hope and pray that the ocular being loose is the issue and next time out it will stop. I will pull off the FH, retourque the screws, bag the shit out of it, whatever I gotta do. My know-how tells me switch shooter first, then switch barrel. the Geissele was way to heavy for me with stock springs. the yellows are firing all my ammo fine. I'm not going back to that heavy trigger. it makes me strain and move more. not impressed but it's bought already. EDIT: Geissele Hi-Speed National Match Rifle Trigger would be what I want...and that is $280. insane. |
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Posted: 11/22/2014 7:19:20 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or you just have too much mag for 100m and you were trying to compensate too hard. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've had the same issue with a noveske barrel, it would group 1.5" @ 100yM with 75gr BTHP's. I pushed out to 300M just to see if i could get on paper, the group was under 3" @ 300M (submoa) what gives? Tried some 69grs got around the same results. I would try some farther distance. What barrel length? Bullets might have needed more time to stabilize Or you just have too much mag for 100m and you were trying to compensate too hard. it's a 18" 1:7 twist, w/1-4 mtac, 3gun setup. i like to think it was just me. Some of my buddies just say it's silly and wastefull shooting heavies at 100M, they're meant for 500M and beyond. |
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Posted: 11/22/2014 9:04:34 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Try various ammo. I took some 77,75,69,64,55, and 50 grain factory loads to the range one day.... Oddly enough the best groups were with the American eagle 50 grain varmint stuff, I was baffled. Shame I can't find it locally any more. This. I say it alot, I'm sure but those cheap ass ae 50s are consistently accurate as hell. Try some, seriously it'll cost you 8 bucks a box, I've shot full 30 round mags into just a hair over an inch with a Rainier select on several occasions using this cheap stuff. I can also say at 100 yards, the 77 grain sierras are often disappointing (in the context of expectations considering the reputation for accuracy they have but in reality pretty decent anyways) but take it to 250 and out and game on.I consistently see groups at longer distance equal to or sometimes smaller than 100 yards (in real measured inches not equally measured moa), hornady 75s are better but display the same effect just to a lesser degree it seems. 69 and down all seem good to go at 100 depending whether or not your barrel happens to like the load your trying shoot and it seems to me the good (as in not m193 or equivalent bulk type ammo) bullets in 62 and down grain do the best for 100 yard shooting for holes touching type groups. That's been my experience for the most part though there are exceptions. That's my 2 cents on the matter, outside of loose or maladjusted equipment. Eta; I've also found those barrels like a good bit of fouling and it may take a few rounds until it comes into its own, not sure how many rounds you have through it or if your scrubbing it out or not, just wanted to mention that. I run a mag or 2 of bulk whatever after cleaning before anything else just to foul it a little. Hope you figure it out, whatever it is. |
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Posted: 11/22/2014 9:12:01 PM EDT
[#48]
either the shooter or weapon. My CMMG Piston gives me 1.5 with 55g M193 ammo. If you're using quality ammo you should be getting better than 1.5 moa easy.
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Posted: 11/22/2014 9:38:54 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. I say it alot, I'm sure but those cheap ass ae 50s are consistently accurate as hell. Try some, seriously it'll cost you 8 bucks a box, I've shot full 30 round mags into just a hair over an inch with a Rainier select on several occasions using this cheap stuff. I can also say at 100 yards, the 77 grain sierras are often disappointing (in the context of expectations considering the reputation for accuracy they have but in reality pretty decent anyways) but take it to 250 and out and game on.I consistently see groups at longer distance equal to or sometimes smaller than 100 yards (in real measured inches not equally measured moa), hornady 75s are better but display the same effect just to a lesser degree it seems. 69 and down all seem good to go at 100 depending whether or not your barrel happens to like the load your trying shoot and it seems to me the good (as in not m193 or equivalent bulk type ammo) bullets in 62 and down grain do the best for 100 yard shooting for holes touching type groups. That's been my experience for the most part though there are exceptions. That's my 2 cents on the matter, outside of loose or maladjusted equipment. Eta; I've also found those barrels like a good bit of fouling and it may take a few rounds until it comes into its own, not sure how many rounds you have through it or if your scrubbing it out or not, just wanted to mention that. I run a mag or 2 of bulk whatever after cleaning before anything else just to foul it a little. Hope you figure it out, whatever it is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Try various ammo. I took some 77,75,69,64,55, and 50 grain factory loads to the range one day.... Oddly enough the best groups were with the American eagle 50 grain varmint stuff, I was baffled. Shame I can't find it locally any more. This. I say it alot, I'm sure but those cheap ass ae 50s are consistently accurate as hell. Try some, seriously it'll cost you 8 bucks a box, I've shot full 30 round mags into just a hair over an inch with a Rainier select on several occasions using this cheap stuff. I can also say at 100 yards, the 77 grain sierras are often disappointing (in the context of expectations considering the reputation for accuracy they have but in reality pretty decent anyways) but take it to 250 and out and game on.I consistently see groups at longer distance equal to or sometimes smaller than 100 yards (in real measured inches not equally measured moa), hornady 75s are better but display the same effect just to a lesser degree it seems. 69 and down all seem good to go at 100 depending whether or not your barrel happens to like the load your trying shoot and it seems to me the good (as in not m193 or equivalent bulk type ammo) bullets in 62 and down grain do the best for 100 yard shooting for holes touching type groups. That's been my experience for the most part though there are exceptions. That's my 2 cents on the matter, outside of loose or maladjusted equipment. Eta; I've also found those barrels like a good bit of fouling and it may take a few rounds until it comes into its own, not sure how many rounds you have through it or if your scrubbing it out or not, just wanted to mention that. I run a mag or 2 of bulk whatever after cleaning before anything else just to foul it a little. Hope you figure it out, whatever it is. Good point about the dirty barrel. I know moly coating is controversial, but I swear my Colt A2 chrome lined seems to like em that way. Or when I first was testing it a lot it seemed like it favored moly coated bullets. Kinda 2 separate issues but might be related. Anyways.... I had not shot the heavier stuff out real far and I need to try that and see what you guys are talking about. With them grouping better at distance. |
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Posted: 11/22/2014 11:08:24 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Try various ammo. I took some 77,75,69,64,55, and 50 grain factory loads to the range one day.... Oddly enough the best groups were with the American eagle 50 grain varmint stuff, I was baffled. Shame I can't find it locally any more. What folks have suggested about scope , barrel and technique are all standard problems ( that we have all had at one time or another ) I do believe this gentleman above could be on to something . Some of the hotshots at my club (serious long range competition shooters they are with trophy racks overflowing ) claim that some of the very best long range bullets and loads shoot somewhat disappointing at 100 . Something about settling down . Theory is the bullet wobbles for a bit . These guys are shooting at 500 , 600 and beyond , 100 yds is short stuff to them . Service rifle guys who all use at least 69 gr and mostly well into the 70gr range bullets for the full length 600yd course generally use a 52 or 53 gr bullet on the 100yd reduced course even with slow twist guns set up for the heavy bullets . I would suggest the OP try some lighter bullets , possibly some factory loads . If he gets good groups that will prove out his gun scope and technique and he can then work on messing about with his loads . If he can't get better groups with the lighter bullets its time to double check equipment and technique. Good luck! |
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