So you're advocating lightweight internals with a generously sized gas port, proper form and a good muzzle devise?  And this formula has been proven with shot timers to produce faster splits?

This is not the way to set up a reliably functioning carbine(bolt unlocking when pressure is to high and cyclic rate to fast), and it sure isn't going to help with transferring the energy(recoil) away from the shooter.

You referenced  competitive shooters, keep in mind that they also shoot ammo that generates significantly less energy than even low powered factory 223. then tune the gas to allow the exact amount to just cycle a rifle length system using the lightest components made and use an aggressive muzzle devise. This is very, very different to what the OP is doing and very different than what you are advocating.  

Most also know that a 14.5" mid can be every bit as reliable as a 14.5" carbine these days as well - even when dirty and running weaker ammo.

And GMAN, as you also know, there IS a difference when stepping up to stiffer springs and heavier buffers.

I've ran a plethora of rifles that were originally equipped with a standard spring and H buffer. Stepping up to a Sprinco Blue spring and H2 made a noticeable difference. Some people find it hard to believe they're even shooting the same rifle after the spring/buffer swap.

ETA - and competition race guns have no relevance to hard use suppressed and combat type configured rifles.

I never advocated all of those things together. In fact, I never advocated anything, just gave some facts on what I prefer, and what works for faster splits (which are not related).


 

 

















































 

Considering the plethora of ex mil who are now civilian trainers that are running the crap out of 14.5" mids even harder than most combat issued 14.5" carbines are being abused certainly does say to at least some that they can be every bit as reliable - and certainly to me.

Especially considering my own experiences. I have used over a dozen 14.5" mids from just DD and BCM alone. They've all been run with Sprinco Blue springs and H2 buffers, and all been fed a heavy diet of weaker PMC Bronze 223. I'm still waiting for a single malfunction.

I highly doubt I just keep getting lucky.

And I often go well over a thousand rounds without any cleaning or disassembly. I'll just add a few drops of FireClean to the bolt and carrier through the ejection port and magwell every several hundred rounds.

I have a 14.5" BCM mid approaching 1500 rounds of just PMC Bronze without a cleaning or disassembly in that time. I've simply added a few drops of FireClean to the BCG twice during that time. Sprinco Blue spring and H2 as well.

I don't know what to tell you, I clearly have significantly different results than you.

And you're now mentioning entirely different things that originated in "gamerland." I wasn't making reference to any of those.

I was making reference to low mass carriers and buffers having no place on hard use suppressed or combat rifles.

Combat conditions and environments are very easily recreated. The elements that these trainers I referenced subject their rifles to are harsh. Easily as harsh or harsher than combat.

They are jumping in and out of vehicles, crawling through sand and mud, shooting underneath vehicles, in dusty envronments, wet environments, etc, etc, etc.

I will repeat, a lot of these trainers are running their 14.5" mids harder and purposely subjecting them to even harsher environments than the majority of combat issued rifles are seeing.

You solely mentioned low mass carriers and light buffers prior to my initial response, so as said, those are what I was referring to that don't belong on combat rifles.

AZoutdoorsman.  I agree with you on the physics.  However, what is TRUE in physics sometimes doesn't always FEEL right.  And sometimes it does.   And I'm with AR Ryan in that sometimes a heavier spring will make it FEEL like less recoil.  Whether or not it is or isn't true in terms of physics, I have no clue.  

I don't know how I did this but one time I accidentally had a stock rifle spring in my carbine buttstock.  With a middy upper.  I swear that was the softest FEELING set up I ever shot and the muzzle would just stay put.  I did try to use good muzzle discipline and some strength, but I didn't feel like I had to do much to achieve that.  I remedied that issue because I also agree with you that you want that thing to run at all times, as best you can.  IN the cold, with weak ammo, etc etc.  But just because physics says that lower weight springs and buffers will give it less recoil doesn't necessarily always translate.

I had a 16" LW carbine and with a 6 pos carbine stock and stock buffer and spring and that thing jumped up.  I also put a fixed stock on it once too and it jumped pretty good.  I'm not sure I could tell the difference.  Very likely the fixed stock actually made the recoil more, but any way you slice it, that thing jumped.  

Weight of the firearm itself also comes into play.  With the current trend of LW everything, which I think is good, they probably have more felt recoil, less front heavy and the muzzle will rise more.  And if spring and buffer help tame that, why fight it?  

To me the softer shooting AR's have heavier buffers.  In my experience.  Which is what Ryan is saying.  So I'm not sure if you're arguing because of experience, or just that you want people to understand that in theory it SHOULDN'T be that way.  LOL.  Also, IMHO, I think for the most part a carbine is always going to have a stiffer impulse than a mid or rifle, all other things being equal.  Like weight.  Wasn't it all documented that a carbine is harder on a bolt than a rifle and that was an issue that was addressed in military rifles?  Or maybe it was just because the M4A1's were full auto.  I don't know.  But I thought that's why you had extra beefy extractors or o rings and such.  And putting a heavier buffer in slows down the bolt and helps reduce bolt bounce when closing.  Therefore softening up the  whole process.  

Having said all that, I think a 1911 with a 16h# spring has less felt recoil than an 18.5#.  In my experience.  YMMV.

When the recoil impulse is spread over a longer time duration it feels softer, I'm not disputing that.

 

And my point is that I'm still waiting to run into a single issue with that type of configuration over tens of thousands of rounds.

Cool. You have spreadsheets with round counts for these rifles along with cleaning and maintenance schedules? Ammo receipts?

 

Yeah, but there is a point where it's "good enough".  The carbine system itself as designed was found to be less reliable than a rifle.  As I understand it.  Yet barely nobody wants a rifle any more.  Even guys that shoot for a living.  So...  I know that you could use that argument to bolster your position too.  Meaning if it was already found to be less reliable, using items that seem to make it even less reliable isn't a good thing.  And you might be right.  But again, good enough?  I guess everyone has to be the judge of what that is for them.

I do think there is some wisdom in setting up your rifle to track nicely.  On the other hand, if murphy reared his ugly head in a gunfight and a rifle short stroked or something, people would be wishing they just left it alone.  It would be interesting to know what the guys that USE their guns for real, if they actually use some of these methods.  I have no clue and you might be right.  It's always good to err on the side of reliability.  For sure.  Now I want to argue your point.  LOL.  

I think you did point out though that most of us are hobbyists.  Not all though.  I am.  I do carry a gun for self defense, but it's a pistol and I use that for HD too.  For now.  I'm still not convinced that I'd rather have a carbine for HD.  But I'm starting to lean that way.

Ammo receipts? Why would I keep emails/receipts for ammo that I've ordered/purchased over the years?

And I have no reason for spreadsheets. I'm not anal about cleaning schedules or round counts. All I'm anal about is keeping a rifle well lubed.

On average, I go at least 6 different shooting sessions for each rifle I own without any disassembly or cleaning. At times, I'll even double that number. And in my typical shooting sessions, I put somewhere around 200 rounds through every rifle I have with me.

I do like to put a few drops of FireClean on the BCGs every 500 rounds or so though.

I shoot nearly every week, shoot plenty when I do, and attend multiple courses annually as well. I don't know what you're trying to get at, but I have no reason to push configurations that I have seen to be unreliable.

One area where you and I highly see eye to eye is in regards to having rifles that will flat out go bang when you need them to.

I don't own a single AR that I wouldn't trust to grab in any scenario. Even if it could end up being my one and only rifle.

So with that said, once again, I have no reason to advocate configurations that I have found unreliable.

I've still yet to encounter malfunctions with my 14.5" mids with H2 buffers and weaker PMC Bronze 223. So why would I doubt that configuration?

There are a few things I can acknowledge that could help attribute to my success. First would be that I rarely shoot in temperatures under 40 degrees. I doubt that is much different for you though, as you are also located in my area.

Next, I pretty much just use 3 different types of ammo. PMC Bronze 55 grain 223, PMC XTac 62 grain 556, and Black Hills SMK OTM 77 grain 556.

I will say that what I shoot by far the most of is PMC Bronze though, and it is definitely on the weaker side for bulk brass cased ammo. The stuff flat out just goes bang for me, and it's cheap enough to keep well stocked.

Last, I do make a point to keep my ARs well lubed with FireClean. I see this as two things in my favor. The first plus is obvious, but the second is that I'm a strong believer in FireClean. I swear by the stuff, and even when the BCG appears bone dry, it still does its job.

Those elements could be what continue to work in my favor, but regardless, my 14.5" mids continue to just run and run regardless of high round counts, being dirty, or weaker ammo - and that's all with stiffer springs and heavier buffers.

Very true about "good enough." I had a BCM mid 14.5 a few years ago, and had some functioning problems.

 




























































 
 

Disclaimer:  I'm far from an expert.

But, here are a few of my thoughts and experience on this.  The felt or perceived recoil cycle consists of three major elements...the actual recoil from firing the cartridge, the reciprocating mass moving rearward, and the reciprocating mass moving forward.  I believe that typically the perceived recoil change when going to heavier buffers (and maybe action springs too) is due to a lessening of the impact force of the buffer on the rear of the receiver extension.  Since many, if not most, commercial AR's are at least somewhat overgassed to make sure they'll function with a wide array of ammunition these guns tend to feel as if they have 'heavy' or 'harsh' recoil due to that buffer impact force at the end of the second part of the recoil cycle.  With a heavier buffer or spring, some of the excess energy is used up in moving the action rearward so you get less force on that impact.  It doesn't reduce the recoil of the cartridge firing, but it sure does reduce the felt effects of it.

Tune a gun so it barely functions and you get to the point where you can't really feel that impact at all.  If you have an H2 buffer or less, you'll have a soft and flat shooting gun that is easy to keep on target.  More than an H2 and you may start seeing muzzle dip at the end of the recoil cycle as the bolt returns to battery.  Either way though, the perceived recoil is greatly reduced.  The recoil cycle can be smoothed out more with less reciprocating mass and tuning the gas feed accordingly, but I've never even messed with the super light stuff...the lightest I've ever used was a s/a carrier and carbine buffer.  I have no need or desire to take it to the degree that gamers do to win.

I'm a hobbyist shooting for fun mostly, I'm not a competitor, but I do have AR15's for self defense and/or home defense.  I've played around with making these guns shoot as soft as possible, but I don't like having AR's sitting around that I wouldn't depend on.  So I prefer to keep the reciprocating mass up for reliability and I don't really tune the gas down much if at all (the exception being guns that are shot suppressed a lot).  I use an H2 or A5H2 buffer at minimum in all of my AR configurations, in some I use an H3 or A5H3.  Are they the smoothest shooting?  No, but I trade some of the potential benefits there for more reliability.

http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/
Note what he did to increase reliability.
Tomac

Please also note that each barrel mentioned in the article uses a carbine length gas system with "milspec" gas port.

 

Good article.  

It gets cold in the winter up here, so....  that could have a different set of parameters than you all down in the Southwest.  Although I heard it gets cold in the desert in the winter.  

I've shot in the cold weather before and never really noticed anything.  But I've shot a rifle system more than a carbine.  But I have had carbine gas AR's and have never noticed any issues.  But I've never got that high of a round count before cleaning.  Which I would imagine for most of us would easily be avoidable.  

I do like the point that a heavier buffer helps close the bolt, if it starts getting dirty.  But then the opposite could be true that the heavier buffer will slow it down.  But again it wasn't a significant difference.  

Personally, I have no problem leaning towards the heavier buffers.  A rifle buffer is almost as heavy as a 9mm buffer and I would not hesitate to run a carbine upper on a rifle stock.  But yeah, I suppose that could cause some problems with high round counts.  I don't know.  But I also like how he points out that a heavier buffer seems to be easier on the extraction process.  Which to me would be more critical than if the bolt slows down some.  An extraction jam could be more of an issue to clear than just a bolt getting sluggish.  If it got to the point that you had to cycle each shot manually, at least you'd still have a functioning weapon.  Albeit a lot slower.

This is another point I was trying to get at. Regardless of gas system, I didn't think it was a secret that heavier buffers and stiffer springs tend to increase reliability in dirty guns, and not the other way around.

I'll add that Mike's maintenance tends to be fairly on par with mine.

While I don't shoot that many rounds nearly as quickly, or go out of my way to run my rifles until they malfunction, I pretty much just add a few drops of lube every 500 rounds or so, and run a boresnake through my barrels every other shooting session or so. Cleaning and disassembly comes when I estimate a rifle is somewhere in the 1500-2000 round count since its last cleaning.

My 3-gun rifle is A 16" mid. I do use a sprinco blu spring and H2 buffer in that one. For gun games only.

What he is getting at is without gun logs the majority of shooters vastly exaggerate round counts. That the more rifles you own the less each one gets used.  Someone tells me he has 20k through a rifle I'm impressed. Someone tells me he has a dozen DD and BCM 14.5" mids and has tens of thousands of rounds through each of them, I'm a skeptic. Unless paid to shoot and given free ammo very few people have the free time and ammo money to put up big numbers with dozens of rifles.

Steven, my collection has been well documented on this site.

And I have owned over a dozen 14.5" DD and BCM mids over the past 3 years. I've sold over half of them to fund SBRs and KAC rifles though.

Regardless, even those 14.5" mids I sold off (and some had low round counts), I still ran them all with Sprinco Blue springs, H2 buffers and PMC Bronze. I have never seen one malfunction with that combination. Not once. Hence my stance on this subject.

I shoot every Friday or Saturday for the most part. I order 2k rounds or so of 223/556 per month on average. I don't know what else to tell you.

And I didn't say I have tens of thousands of rounds through each of my rifles. I said I have tens of thousands of rounds through all my rifles in general. I could safely say easily over 20k rounds of PMC Bronze alone since 2011.

What I will reiterate is that I have zero reason to advocate a configuration that I have found unreliable. I don't purchase reliable rifles, tweak them so that they're no longer reliable, and then toss them in a safe to collect dust.

I have no reason for any rifles that don't always work for me. And all of mine that I currently own and have owned continue to go bang.

 

I have always just ran standard springs and CAR buffers and my rifles have ate everything, including tula. Any time I experimented with heavier springs or buffers I began  to have issues and ditched them.

 

recces are known to be mids (some of them), and have been used in combat. AFAIK.  Which is not a lot, but I think KevinB's recce is a mid. And he's BTDT.  So that's at least one guy.  I think.    Contractors have more of a leeway also in what rifles they have and I THINK they have used mid guns.  Over there.  There's also that 18" one the 82nd or some army unit used.  

The specifications on Compass Lake Engineering's Website for the Recon Barrel is 16" inches with a mid-length gas system. Frank White of CLE played a part in the SPR and Reece Programs supplying the barrels for NSWC—Crane.