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Posted: 4/27/2014 12:59:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Is the piston really worth almost double the cost? No. Piston retrofits in the AR platform are a solution in search of your wallet. It's not worth the same cost for your application. I can't conceive of why you'd even want one, 3 gun shooters in general are looking for the smoothest and lowest rifle movement they can possibly get and do all kinds of little tricks to try to smooth things out. Why would you want to add a bunch of extra moving parts banging around? |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 1:02:37 PM EDT
[#2]
DI all day long.
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Posted: 4/27/2014 1:06:35 PM EDT
[#3]
oh this is gonna be fun to watch
I have both, love both, see utility in both SEAL OTB test was passed by only 2 rifles, anyone care to tell the hive whether they were DI or Piston? |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 1:40:08 PM EDT
[#4]
I have both and like both. If you are not going SBR and suppressed, my opinion is to stay with DI as it is cheaper and works perfect as is.
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Posted: 4/27/2014 1:46:26 PM EDT
[#5]
Well..... since he was looking for a 3gun rifle and not a OTB rifle, I'm pretty sure he doesn't care about the results.
The vast majority of three gunners select a rifle or inter-mid DI gas system on an 18" barrel. Recoil impulse is smoother/ softer which translates into faster follow up shots. The Stag 3G is a quality/ value priced rifle. The only change to the rifle I would make is to replace the comp. In the rifles I have seen, unless Stag has fixed the problem, it has a bit of muzzle dive. |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 2:32:28 PM EDT
[#6]
Thank you all for your opinions and I think my check book will thank you as well haha.
One more question.......What other brands of uppers are there that are comparable to the Stag that are geared toward 3gun? |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 2:52:28 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What other brands of uppers are there that are comparable to the Stag that are geared toward 3gun? There are literally hundreds of brands of upper receivers and upper halves. |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 3:04:12 PM EDT
[#8]
The PWS Wraith popped in my head as another gun set up for 3 gun. It is piston, but the long strike action is quite smooth and doesn't have the hard hitting feel of short piston guns. I believe JP makes 3 gun specific rifles as well. Or like the previous poster mentioned, pick an upper you like and mate it to a lower you like, or build one. Tons of options. Also, browse the Noveske offerings.
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Posted: 4/27/2014 3:59:20 PM EDT
[#9]
The AR15 is already a piston gun.
Having an AR15 with a piston over the barrel would be just like moving the furniture around in your house into places where you would trip over it. |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 4:16:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Piston sucks.
DI FTW. |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 4:25:55 PM EDT
[#11]
For a 3 gun without a doubt DI. Pistons have a place but not for 3 gun.
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Posted: 4/27/2014 4:33:58 PM EDT
[#12]
Ar's with pistons are converted D.I.'s.
Go with what it was designed for. Dave N |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 4:46:59 PM EDT
[#13]
I agree go with DI for 3 gun, as far as uppers most people i know that shoot three gun, shot an 18" midlength gas system, most build their own setup as each person is an individual, you may be best to go with a the basic 18" mid with a good barrel, and then upgrade it as you go along.
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Posted: 4/27/2014 4:48:40 PM EDT
[#14]
Piston is really expensive. I have half of a dozen reliable DI rifles, not sure what the extra cash gets you.
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Posted: 4/27/2014 4:52:12 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
I am looking to build a 3gun rifle and am torn between the Stag 3g and Adams c.o.r. upper. Is the piston really worth almost double the cost? Any help would be appreciated. Can you quantify an improvement in felt recoil/target reacquisition with piston over DI? Is the piston upper lighter than the DI? Is there a reliability improvement that solves an actual problem with the DI gun? If no to these questions, a well-spec'ed DI gun should be your huckleberry. 
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Posted: 4/28/2014 8:30:27 AM EDT
[#16]
In reality, the decision as to brand should be determined by your checkbook, and how serious you are getting into 3-Gun.
JP builds some of the nicest/ softest shooting 3-Gun specific rifles/ uppers out there. I have yet to meet anyone that didnt feel it was worth every penny. You might consider looking at the RRA 3-Gun upper. I have heard good things, and the upper is inexpensive. Handguard is a little heavy IMHO, but works, and can be had for about $700. You might consider building your own.... I did because I couldnt find exactly what I wanted. Into the upper about $1200. The PWS Wraith is a great gun, but you are paying for technology(piston system) that is not necessary in a 3-gun specific rifle. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 8:46:21 AM EDT
[#17]
as long as u lube well DI runs I have both but use the osprey416 drop in...very simple robust and reliable pisons advantage is it runs cooler and cleaner and if u cant lube it will run longer dry...DI needs lube to run and run and run depending on operating environemnt it runs hot and dirty but with good lube no worries
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Posted: 4/28/2014 10:52:26 AM EDT
[#18]
Hey I LOVE my AA piston gun. For my purposes it offers a lot of advantages and runs like a sewing machine. I dn't own a DI gun because I believe in the advantages a piston gun has over a DI gun for day-to-day use and for SHTF in the highly unlikely scenario one were to happen somehow.
That being said, however, DI only makes sense for 3G. There is a reason you don't see folks running AKs out there as the piston being on top creates a different rotational impulse compared to the DI gun. The need for speed means you want the impulse to be as close to the midline of the rifle as possible, and the location of the piston in a DI gun has an advantage there. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 11:20:51 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
as long as u lube well DI runs I have both but use the osprey416 drop in...very simple robust and reliable pisons advantage is it runs cooler and cleaner and if u cant lube it will run longer dry...DI needs lube to run and run and run depending on operating environemnt it runs hot and dirty but with good lube no worries Both Di and Piston rifles run hot. Also, they both get dirty. It's just where it gets hot and dirty. DI rifle is good enough for DI fan boys, and Piston rifle is good enough for piston fan boys! 
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Posted: 4/28/2014 2:39:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Piston does have a place...a place where people pay more money for a needlessly complicated, more expensive rifle with a proprietary gas system.
As others mentioned, the adjustable gas blocks most come with could come in handy for junk ammo/heavy fouling or suppressed use. I have 3 standard guns in what are considered the most finicky configurations; 16" rifle length, 10.5" carbine, and 7" pistol. The pistol length runs a little harsh and dirty, but they all run flawlessly. A well tuned 18" rifle length gas gun with a rifle buffer system tuned to the load of choice is pretty much the combo to beat. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 3:39:21 PM EDT
[#21]
Pistons are for lazy people that don't like to spend more time cleaning & lubing than shooting.
Lazy guy....right here. 
That being said, if you want soft shooting accuracy, get a precision tuned DI. If you want an extra-low maintenance, cheap ammo blaster for <300 yards, get a PWS and ignore the snobs. Most important... get what you want and have fun! What other people think is not important. Just be safe. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 3:42:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pistons are for lazy people that don't like to spend more time cleaning & lubing than shooting. Lazy guy....right here.
That being said, if you want soft shooting accuracy, get a precision tuned DI. If you want an extra-low maintenance, cheap ammo blaster for <300 yards, get a PWS and ignore the snobs. Most important... get what you want and have fun! What other people think is not important. Just be safe. No, I don't participate in 3 gun. Yes, I am lazy. My piston system runs flawlessly, but I just use my gun as a plinker and semi HD gun. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 5:10:55 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Both Di and Piston rifles run hot. Also, they both get dirty. It's just where it gets hot and dirty. DI rifle is good enough for DI fan boys, and Piston rifle is good enough for piston fan boys! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
as long as u lube well DI runs I have both but use the osprey416 drop in...very simple robust and reliable pisons advantage is it runs cooler and cleaner and if u cant lube it will run longer dry...DI needs lube to run and run and run depending on operating environemnt it runs hot and dirty but with good lube no worries Both Di and Piston rifles run hot. Also, they both get dirty. It's just where it gets hot and dirty. DI rifle is good enough for DI fan boys, and Piston rifle is good enough for piston fan boys! Fan boys always collect to a given side even without vested interest... perceived benefit is enough often times. That being said it is imperative to realize that they are much the same animal. Now having shot both of various companies, & shooting various AR's, I see how it can be favored one way or another. A nice piston setup can feel softer than a base system but a base system tuned can feel the same. This runs a wide gamut of users so the end use age becomes an important factor. Piston systems or compact blowback systems offer other ergonomic advantages such as collapsing stocks & lighter weight & reduced component size. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 5:35:50 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The AR15 is already a piston gun. Having an AR15 with a piston over the barrel would be just like moving the furniture around in your house into places where you would trip over it. 
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Posted: 4/28/2014 6:24:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. Piston retrofits in the AR platform are a solution in search of your wallet. It's not worth the same cost for your application. I can't conceive of why you'd even want one, 3 gun shooters in general are looking for the smoothest and lowest rifle movement they can possibly get and do all kinds of little tricks to try to smooth things out. Why would you want to add a bunch of extra moving parts banging around? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Is the piston really worth almost double the cost? No. Piston retrofits in the AR platform are a solution in search of your wallet. It's not worth the same cost for your application. I can't conceive of why you'd even want one, 3 gun shooters in general are looking for the smoothest and lowest rifle movement they can possibly get and do all kinds of little tricks to try to smooth things out. Why would you want to add a bunch of extra moving parts banging around? I don't own a piston gun. But after a day on the range shooting suppressed I certainly want one. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 6:32:05 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Both Di and Piston rifles run hot. Also, they both get dirty. It's just where it gets hot and dirty. This is why I love it when someone claims that piston rifles run cleaner and cooler. #lulz |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 4:22:36 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is why I love it when someone claims that piston rifles run cleaner and cooler. #lulz Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Both Di and Piston rifles run hot. Also, they both get dirty. It's just where it gets hot and dirty. This is why I love it when someone claims that piston rifles run cleaner and cooler. #lulz lol to you both, pistons absolutely run cleaner and cooler and this is well validated. Seriously, you don't have to like the option but let's not get stupid here |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 5:01:11 AM EDT
[#28]
To clarify, the piston runs cooler in the receiver; at the BCG specifically. This can help mitigate ammunition cook-off after multiple mag dumps.
All the heat has to go somewhere and on a piston, it means the gas block and/or gas vent area which is usually forward and under the hand guard. The DI will run a little cooler at the gas block but the BCG will heat up faster and generally reach higher temps. |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 5:06:19 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In reality, the decision as to brand should be determined by your checkbook, and how serious you are getting into 3-Gun. JP builds some of the nicest/ softest shooting 3-Gun specific rifles/ uppers out there. I have yet to meet anyone that didnt feel it was worth every penny. You might consider looking at the RRA 3-Gun upper. I have heard good things, and the upper is inexpensive. Handguard is a little heavy IMHO, but works, and can be had for about $700. You might consider building your own.... I did because I couldnt find exactly what I wanted. Into the upper about $1200. The PWS Wraith is a great gun, but you are paying for technology(piston system) that is not necessary in a 3-gun specific rifle. |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 5:12:24 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol to you both, pistons absolutely run cleaner and cooler and this is well validated. Seriously, you don't have to like the option but let's not get stupid here Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Both Di and Piston rifles run hot. Also, they both get dirty. It's just where it gets hot and dirty. This is why I love it when someone claims that piston rifles run cleaner and cooler. #lulz lol to you both, pistons absolutely run cleaner and cooler and this is well validated. Seriously, you don't have to like the option but let's not get stupid here  Why is that funny, when external piston guns do get hot and dirty. Just in a different place. How is that stupid? ETA: OP external piston AR's have limited handguard options, so its not a good route for 3 gun. |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 5:16:56 AM EDT
[#31]
i have both and in classic arfcom fashion, get both. my stag model 8 is a work horse
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Posted: 4/29/2014 7:01:35 AM EDT
[#32]
Great thread about D?I AR15s.
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Posted: 4/29/2014 8:46:55 AM EDT
[#33]
I'm not sure about Piston AR's, i know they work.. but not so sure about the economy of the grafted on complication to a platform designed around the present quasi-DI system the AR 15 uses.
On platforms designed from the ground up with piston systems, they are generally heavier and many are less accurate than the AR D.I gun ( whether or not/how much loss of accuracy is the directly related to the piston system is debatable). One thing is for sure, the internals run cooler and cleaner and will run with less lube than a D.I gun. The piston will get dirty, dry and hot.... but the piston was designed to run dirty, dry and hot... your not even supposed to lube pistons, at least my AK or AUG did not recommend lube for the piston. I dont think a piston gun offers any advantage in 3gun... but as a SHTF gun or GP battle rifle they have proven themselves worthy. Saying a DI guns internals run as cool and clean as a piston gun's is like saying the interior of a turbo runs as clean and cool as the interior of a supercharger. |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 9:02:42 AM EDT
[#34]
For 3 gun? I would get a DI and put an adjustable gas block on it so you can tune it so you get minimal recoil.
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Posted: 4/29/2014 9:35:33 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
lol to you both, pistons absolutely run cleaner and cooler and this is well validated. Seriously, you don't have to like the option but let's not get stupid here Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Both Di and Piston rifles run hot. Also, they both get dirty. It's just where it gets hot and dirty. This is why I love it when someone claims that piston rifles run cleaner and cooler. #lulz lol to you both, pistons absolutely run cleaner and cooler and this is well validated. Seriously, you don't have to like the option but let's not get stupid here I used to have a piston AR: a Sig 516. The handguard on that thing got really hot really fast around the piston. It also got incredibly dirty even after light use. What was said was 0% stupid and 100% factual. |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 9:42:29 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I used to have a piston AR: a Sig 516. The handguard on that thing got really hot really fast around the piston. It also got incredibly dirty even after light use. What was said was 0% stupid and 100% factual. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Both Di and Piston rifles run hot. Also, they both get dirty. It's just where it gets hot and dirty. This is why I love it when someone claims that piston rifles run cleaner and cooler. #lulz lol to you both, pistons absolutely run cleaner and cooler and this is well validated. Seriously, you don't have to like the option but let's not get stupid here I used to have a piston AR: a Sig 516. The handguard on that thing got really hot really fast around the piston. It also got incredibly dirty even after light use. What was said was 0% stupid and 100% factual. Of course it got hot and dirty, do not hold onto your piston weapon by the piston assembly... or the barrel, they get hot. If the weapon did not operate reliably... it was not because pistons suck... or it because pistons get hot and dirty.. its because the gun sucked. i think a better way to phrase the advantage a piston presents is... Piston systems on rifles greatly reduce the amount of heat and contaminants in the receiver by venting the majority of hot gas during operation to atmosphere instead of into the receiver. |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 10:44:02 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Of course it got hot and dirty, do not hold onto your piston weapon by the piston assembly... or the barrel, they get hot. If the weapon did not operate reliably... it was not because pistons suck... or it because pistons get hot and dirty.. its because the gun sucked. i think a better way to phrase the advantage a piston presents is... Piston systems on rifles greatly reduce the amount of heat and contaminants in the receiver by venting the majority of hot gas during operation to atmosphere instead of into the receiver. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Both Di and Piston rifles run hot. Also, they both get dirty. It's just where it gets hot and dirty. This is why I love it when someone claims that piston rifles run cleaner and cooler. #lulz lol to you both, pistons absolutely run cleaner and cooler and this is well validated. Seriously, you don't have to like the option but let's not get stupid here I used to have a piston AR: a Sig 516. The handguard on that thing got really hot really fast around the piston. It also got incredibly dirty even after light use. What was said was 0% stupid and 100% factual. Of course it got hot and dirty, do not hold onto your piston weapon by the piston assembly... or the barrel, they get hot. If the weapon did not operate reliably... it was not because pistons suck... or it because pistons get hot and dirty.. its because the gun sucked. i think a better way to phrase the advantage a piston presents is... Piston systems on rifles greatly reduce the amount of heat and contaminants in the receiver by venting the majority of hot gas during operation to atmosphere instead of into the receiver. You're absolutely right. I'm not saying piston ARs suck, I'm just saying that they sure as hell don't run cooler or cleaner. They just change the location of the heat and fouling. |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 1:01:14 PM EDT
[#38]
DI is easy to clean. Any gun will get dirty, the only question is where? Is is easy to get to? Is it easy to take apart and reassemble? DI AR: Yes.
These are the reasons I bought a DI AR, that and the picatinny rail up top among many other reasons.... |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 1:10:42 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
oh this is gonna be fun to watch I have both, love both, see utility in both SEAL OTB test was passed by only 2 rifles, anyone care to tell the hive whether they were DI or Piston? Guess I can keep my BCM KMR ELW rifles then and not worry since me and my rifle are about 1200 miles from the nearest salt water... 
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Posted: 4/29/2014 1:28:36 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Guess I can keep my BCM KMR ELW rifles then and not worry since me and my rifle are about 1200 miles from the nearest salt water...
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
oh this is gonna be fun to watch I have both, love both, see utility in both SEAL OTB test was passed by only 2 rifles, anyone care to tell the hive whether they were DI or Piston? Guess I can keep my BCM KMR ELW rifles then and not worry since me and my rifle are about 1200 miles from the nearest salt water...
better put them up for sale or start to worry, because OTB is about any water, not just salt water. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwkHktkTxU |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 1:32:25 PM EDT
[#41]
There is a phenomonen known as "carrier tilt" that is associated with tacked on pistons in AR's. Go with DI, its axially aligned. DI does get dirtier, big deal. Stoner and Knight knew what they were doing...
Then there is the cost of pistons vs DI. I once rendered a Robar XCR inoperable, parts fell out of the action, what a sweet piston gun..... |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 1:53:39 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a phenomonen known as "carrier tilt" that is associated with tacked on pistons in AR's. Go with DI, its axially aligned. DI does get dirtier, big deal. Stoner and Knight knew what they were doing... Then there is the cost of pistons vs DI. I once rendered a Robar XCR inoperable, parts fell out of the action, what a sweet piston gun..... PIC's ? what caused the spontaneous disintegration? details so that other XCR owners know what to look for. |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 2:20:03 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
lol to you both, pistons absolutely run cleaner and cooler and this is well validated. Seriously, you don't have to like the option but let's not get stupid here Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Both Di and Piston rifles run hot. Also, they both get dirty. It's just where it gets hot and dirty. This is why I love it when someone claims that piston rifles run cleaner and cooler. #lulz lol to you both, pistons absolutely run cleaner and cooler and this is well validated. Seriously, you don't have to like the option but let's not get stupid here They also run louder suppressed. For HIS application, DI is the answer. |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 2:58:27 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a phenomonen known as "carrier tilt" that is associated with tacked on pistons in AR's. Go with DI, its axially aligned. DI does get dirtier, big deal. Stoner and Knight knew what they were doing... Then there is the cost of pistons vs DI. I once rendered a Robar XCR inoperable, parts fell out of the action, what a sweet piston gun..... again, absolutely not true with many like lwrc, pof, spikes etc.. Many piston makes never experienced carrier tilt which was common with the add on piston kits that were sold when pistons came out |
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Posted: 4/29/2014 3:16:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Use the search function, plus there is a dedicated piston forum now.
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