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Posted: 5/11/2020 4:59:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#1]
it always seemed to me that the space inside the handgrip was needlessly wasted. Some modern grips make a point of using such space, for various user-determined purposes.
The old Lone Star was probably one of the first for offering a grip which had a decently secured closure mechanism. I remember the friction-fit "plugs" that were offered. Entirely UnSat, as the plugs fell free, and so did the contents of the grip. The Lone Star is still around, and the "Butt Plug" not so much. Wonder why. Not saying the Lone Star is the end-all-be-all, but just sayin' Stashing some critical items in the pistol grip is a worthwhile idea. YMMV. Disclaimer: no financial interest. |
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Posted: 5/11/2020 5:20:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Now that I have the magazine, I'm gonna have to get one of Magnetospeed's grips that takes their tiny 3 rnd mag.
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USA
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Posted: 6/10/2020 1:10:13 AM EDT
[#3]
Is there a reason that the forward assist was changed to the large round style and then the smaller round style? I understand the flat side round style for the A2 receiver reinforcements, but that change predicates on going away from the teardrop to the round style to begin with.
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Posted: 6/10/2020 12:05:23 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hartek: Is there a reason that the forward assist was changed to the large round style and then the smaller round style? I understand the flat side round style for the A2 receiver reinforcements, but that change predicates on going away from the teardrop to the round style to begin with. Not sure I understand your question. I have seen the tear drop style broken so that's probably why it was changed to round. I don't know why the large round with flat to the small round. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/10/2020 5:14:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pezboytate: Not sure I understand your question. I have seen the tear drop style broken so that's probably why it was changed to round. I don't know why the large round with flat to the small round. I just want to know why and who made the move away from the teardrop to a round style. Was the change for or separate from M16A2 development, since it seems to happen around the same time as the M16A1E1 is being procured. I also want to know why they made it smaller from the large round style on the M16A2. |
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ITA
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Posted: 6/10/2020 5:20:48 PM EDT
[#6]
I don’t know the official answer..
My guess is the FA was modified in order to be as snag free as possible. |
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Posted: 6/10/2020 5:38:36 PM EDT
[#7]
Our good LTC made the change from the teardrop to the large round style, due to the teardrop getting snagged on webbing, IIRC. Then they realized the enlarged buffer tube boss conflicted w/ the large round FA, so there was a flat cut in it. Then they went to the smaller round style.
This is all from a caffeinated memory as I wait for an email so I can go home. |
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Posted: 10/2/2020 11:11:55 PM EDT
[#8]
Btt
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NC, USA
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Posted: 10/3/2020 8:33:07 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Our good LTC made the change from the teardrop to the large round style, due to the teardrop getting snagged on webbing, IIRC. Then they realized the enlarged buffer tube boss conflicted w/ the large round FA, so there was a flat cut in it. Then they went to the smaller round style. This is all from a caffeinated memory as I wait for an email so I can go home. Whatever other reasons there are for changing the forward assist, a big one is cost. There is only one part that changed in forward assist assembly, the "plunger cap", it switched from a cast part ("tear drop") that needs several operations to complete, to a turning that can be completed in two operations (large round w/ flat), to a turning that can be completed in one operation (current small style). The change was first authorized June 1982. |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 11:16:23 AM EDT
[#10]
This is an incredibly informative thread. I am surprised that I haven't encountered it before. As a Marine, I carried the M16A2. It is incredibly interesting to hear how each different aspect of the rifle came to be. Thanks to everyone that contributed.
2Hut8 |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 11:25:16 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lysanderxiii: Whatever other reasons there are for changing the forward assist, a big one is cost. There is only one part that changed in forward assist assembly, the "plunger cap", it switched from a cast part ("tear drop") that needs several operations to complete, to a turning that can be completed in two operations (large round w/ flat), to a turning that can be completed in one operation (current small style). The change was first authorized June 1982. That’s a “product improvement” that was really an improvement across the board. Less expense for one tiny part doesn’t sound like much, but if it saved $0.25 for each one made, that’s $250 saved for each thousand parts. The implications are left as an exercise for the student...  IIRC, there were complaints that the large button cap was still snagging slings and rigging. Of course that could have been “it’s different so I don’t like it” griping. But the cap being just slightly smaller gave it less of a “lip” to catch things without making it any harder to operate. And having caught the beefy part of the base of my thumb on a teardrop button, (not at all pretty, not at all fun), less snagging is a Good Thing. Finally, from a purely personal, home builder standpoint, that original teardrop cap gave me fits trying to orient the retaining pin hole. There was more of a button to grip, but for some reason it never seemed to be correctly oriented when the hole lined up. With a round button, I have never had any issue with confusing where the hole is - the button doesn’t “tell me” which way to orient it. (Pro tip: use a punch one size smaller than the pin you’re going to insert to line up the hole initially...it’s a real time saver.) |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 11:44:53 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter: (Pro tip: use a punch one size smaller than the pin you’re going to insert to line up the hole initially...it’s a real time saver.) Roll pin starter punches are even better  CD |
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Posted: 10/3/2020 12:00:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Combat_Diver: Roll pin starter punches are even better CD Once I get the darn thing lined up, roll pin starter punches are the bee’s knees. But my fat fingers and less than spacious work environment have, in the past, made the lining up thing a chore.  This one part is the reason I started oiling the crap out of small parts before installation; fiddling with alignment is a lot easier when parts slide really smoothly. And better light and more elbow room were exceptionally good upgrades to my rifle building space. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 10/3/2020 5:17:02 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter: That’s a “product improvement” that was really an improvement across the board. Less expense for one tiny part doesn’t sound like much, but if it saved $0.25 for each one made, that’s $250 saved for each thousand parts. The implications are left as an exercise for the student... IIRC, there were complaints that the large button cap was still snagging slings and rigging. Of course that could have been “it’s different so I don’t like it” griping. But the cap being just slightly smaller gave it less of a “lip” to catch things without making it any harder to operate. And having caught the beefy part of the base of my thumb on a teardrop button, (not at all pretty, not at all fun), less snagging is a Good Thing. Finally, from a purely personal, home builder standpoint, that original teardrop cap gave me fits trying to orient the retaining pin hole. There was more of a button to grip, but for some reason it never seemed to be correctly oriented when the hole lined up. With a round button, I have never had any issue with confusing where the hole is - the button doesn’t “tell me” which way to orient it. (Pro tip: use a punch one size smaller than the pin you’re going to insert to line up the hole initially...it’s a real time saver.) Interestingly, the plunger went from small and round in 1963, to tear drop in 1964, to large and round in 1982, back to small and round in 1988. Sometimes your first idea is the one you should stick with . . . |
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Posted: 3/1/2021 5:43:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RUTGERS95: love the a1 grips best of all |
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Posted: 3/1/2021 9:37:30 PM EDT
[#16]
This is an invaluable thread. Much to learn here, from original sources.
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Posted: 3/1/2021 9:53:12 PM EDT
[#17]
How in the world is anyone getting two fingers above the bump? I have medium to large hands and there's no way I can fit two fingers above the bump. I have no issues with the A2 grip. I have a bunch of different grips on different ARs and the only one I don't really like is the MOE+ because it gets slimy when shooting in the AZ heat.
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Posted: 3/14/2021 12:07:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: axarob44]
[#18]
I read the whole thread here so please excuse me if I missed anything posted about this grip for sale on Specialized Armament website. It says:
"M16A1 proto-type pistol grip. (1982-M16A1E1 Program). This grip was originally created for the US Military, but never adopted. It is a "hybrid" design, using high impact materials developed for the M16A2. The external dimensions are very close to the early M16A2 pistol grip. Without the "finger-bump." Slightly wider than the production M16/M16A1 pistol grip."  Attached FileGreat thread buy the way! Some serious knowledge being dropped here, so thank you to those who are making it known. |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 12:25:16 AM EDT
[#19]
That sounds like the A1 grip Fulton Armory sells. I've replaced all my grips with that one, a slightly fatter A1
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Posted: 3/14/2021 2:55:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: axarob44]
[#20]
Yeah those two grips look identical and I would bet 99.9% that they came from the same mold. There is another thread here and from the pictures they are the same you can see in the fine details in the checkering they are identical. Shame on SA $30 for a $9 grip.
Fool me once... oh well, I've wasted a lot more on a lot less. LOL! Wonder what else is being sold as Colt isn't. Guess I won't order from them again. See how long it takes them to change their description. Ripe for being a prototype, doesn't fit right "prototype" no Colt markings "prototype" made from new materials "prototype" |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 8:49:37 AM EDT
[#21]
Oh, that's funny. the post you linked to is my post on the topic, but I was too lazy to go search for it last night.
Thanks for finding it! |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 8:53:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Bohr_Adam]
[#22]
The giant grips are up there with the extended grips on pistol magazines as crutch popular among people who have shit fundamentals.
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Posted: 3/14/2021 8:57:50 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vicious_cb: Because the USMC wanted to turn a perfectly suitable combat rifle into a KD target rifle. That's what the gist was understood as when it was fielded, without much focus in the materials. I can remember carrying Frankenstein rifles for competitions - A1 lowers on A2 uppers. A lot of us thought that made for the best all around competition rifle. Better trigger and stock with the advantages of the A2 sights. |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 8:59:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Creature]
[#24]
I wound up returning to the A2. Even bought a green one from Mohegan21 in his grip thread.
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Posted: 3/14/2021 12:35:16 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MRW: Oh, that's funny. the post you linked to is my post on the topic, but I was too lazy to go search for it last night. Thanks for finding it! I didn't see it was you that posted it because it was archived. I found this thread because as soon as I saw the grip and then put it on and it was a bad fit my senses said fake right away. Thanks for posting that. I was just looking for a like new condition Colt A1 grip. I had bought two Colt A1 grips from SA in the past and they were legit Colt A1 grips. This kind of stuff is only going to get worse. |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 10:25:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#26]
I would not own a AR grip of any sort which did not include some sort of secure, internal storage. Why waste valuable storage space? I don't consider "butt-plugs" secure storage, unless additional measures are taken. YMMV.
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Posted: 3/14/2021 11:42:01 PM EDT
[#27]
I've never found a grip storage that was secure. I don't trust them. It's bad to have your spare bolt fall out during an action match. Even worse to need it in combat and find it already missing
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CT, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2021 12:00:34 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TaylorWSO: a2 with nub ground off FTW at least thats what i do to all mine Came here to say this. |
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Posted: 7/10/2021 6:59:10 PM EDT
[#29]
Who's got an AR with a 1911 grip?
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Posted: 7/10/2021 8:17:01 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MRW: Who's got an AR with a 1911 grip? Bought the frame so I could install Lego grips, then got a 1911 so have never used it. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/11/2021 2:20:55 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MRW: That sounds like the A1 grip Fulton Armory sells. I've replaced all my grips with that one, a slightly fatter A1 But if SAW sells it, it's probably $250. I'm sure his fanbois will chime in about his "13 Herbs n Spices" secret Colt modifications that he can't tell you about   S/F Al |
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Posted: 4/7/2022 10:20:52 AM EDT
[#32]
bttt
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OK, USA
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Posted: 11/5/2022 5:53:36 PM EDT
[#33]
This was a tremendously informative thread. It’s great when people like coldblue bring the actual history to a discussion.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/8/2022 9:44:19 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vicious_cb: Because the USMC wanted to turn a perfectly suitable combat rifle into a KD target rifle. Pretty much, let's brag about hitting a 5" target at 500 yds/meters from a slung and low position. At least the quals have changed in both branches to be more realistic. While they didn't choose the A2 and at the time, the ACOG wasn't in the picture, I'm sure those Marines short stocking the M16 to use an ACOG wanted to beat the remnants of the wood and steel KD holdovers. |
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Posted: 11/9/2022 8:20:07 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Durham68: Came here to say this. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Durham68: Originally Posted By TaylorWSO: a2 with nub ground off FTW at least thats what i do to all mine Came here to say this. Yep. I prefer Magpul for a couple reasons for most guns but for KISS stuff that doesn't need storage I grind off the nub then stipple the front with a soldering iron. Very grippy, still a2 size overall but profiled more like a1. Another free one, for you DIY folks: If anyone still chops carry handles, save the front thumbwheel piece after chopping. Profile it down to only the thunbwheel and the short "vertical leg" remaining. Drill a hole through that vertical piece and deburr/paint. Add paracord loop through hole. You now have a silent QD sling mount that will mount on any section of rail with the thumbwheel. I can post pics if anyone wants. |
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Posted: 11/9/2022 8:29:00 AM EDT
[#36]
yes pics! I love hacked gear
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Posted: 11/9/2022 8:41:21 AM EDT
[#37]
 Attached FileAdd your little chunk of cord and a sling and you're all set, no metal clips clanking together. |
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Posted: 11/9/2022 8:46:54 AM EDT
[#38]
Tear Drop Forward Assist Change. This came up as an agenda item from Lorn Brunton of Rock Island as the Army's logistics main-man of the A2 PIP. He asked if we (USMC) would support changing to a round design to reduce its production cost as a round plunger would be much cheaper and require it to be a casting. I saw this as an opportunity to bring Lorn more on-board with the PIP, so I agreed. But my direction to Colt engineering was that the new round plunger have the same "square inches" as the tear drop plunger. The first several thousand A2's delivered to the Corps had the full-round plungers and that's when we discovered the interference with the increased strength lower receiver ring where the buffer tube attaches. We then had Colt mod the drawing with a "flat." After that, I let the program and when Lorn subsequently found the cost of the flat was too much, he sponsored the small round plunger change we see today.
 Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 11/9/2022 11:40:20 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By coldblue: Tear Drop Forward Assist Change. This came up as an agenda item from Lorn Brunton of Rock Island as the Army's logistics main-man of the A2 PIP. He asked if we (USMC) would support changing to a round design to reduce its production cost as a round plunger would be much cheaper and require it to be a casting. I saw this as an opportunity to bring Lorn more on-board with the PIP, so I agreed. But my direction to Colt engineering was that the new round plunger have the same "square inches" as the tear drop plunger. The first several thousand A2's delivered to the Corps had the full-round plungers and that's when we discovered the interference with the increased strength lower receiver ring where the buffer tube attaches. We then had Colt mod the drawing with a "flat." After that, I let the program and when Lorn subsequently found the cost of the flat was too much, he sponsored the small round plunger change we see today.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/19411/forward_assist_plungers_jpg-2593579.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/19411/mod_forwardassist_jpg-2593582.JPG Even the high holy archangel of the A2 himself calls it a buffer tube!
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Posted: 11/9/2022 12:49:53 PM EDT
[#40]
...because calling it properly as a 'receiver extension' has confused people for 40 years...
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OK, USA
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Posted: 11/9/2022 1:43:39 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By coldblue: ...because calling it properly as a 'receiver extension' has confused people for 40 years... 
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Posted: 11/10/2022 12:05:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: backbencher]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By coldblue: ...because calling it properly as a 'receiver extension' has confused people for 40 years... Circular container for recoil spring and retarder didn't do the trick?
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Posted: 11/10/2022 2:05:05 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By coldblue: ...because calling it properly as a 'receiver extension' has confused people for 40 years... +1 |
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Posted: 11/16/2022 10:37:28 AM EDT
[#44]
@SinistralRifleman vs coldblue:
 What the M16A2 Should Have Been |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 12:28:50 PM EDT
[#45]
bump
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Posted: 3/27/2023 1:31:30 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lancelot: bump  Why u no tack this thread already?
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NC, USA
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Posted: 3/27/2023 1:51:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lysanderxiii]
[#47]
Quote HistoryThe size of the forward assist came full circle, the original prototype plunger was a very small diameter. 
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Posted: 3/27/2023 5:05:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Why u no tack this thread already? |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 5:20:32 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raf: I >>thought<< I toggled this thread as "Non-Archived". IOW that it would always be available in current forum, and never be "lost" in the Archives. If I failed to do so, then current Mod/Staff can toggle "Non-Archive" status. Contact current Mod/Staff and have them make appropriate arrangements. I concur that this thread is too valuable to be "lost". Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By raf: Originally Posted By backbencher: Why u no tack this thread already? This thread has provided so much invaluable information over the years, it seriously deserves a tack, thanks @raf for your time and attention. |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 6:03:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#50]
TYVM for kind comments, but suggest you all strongly suggest to existing Mods/Staff that this thread be toggled "Non-Archive" status if I failed to do so. As said, unsure if I did so back when.
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