Tagged for later

Forgot to sub to this thread so I am glad I found it again.
 

Hi Guys:

Here is a bump to promote the thread.  Several have asked about shooting and posting but the thread was Archived.

Well, it is back from the dead.

Bang away and post your results!

I shot this with my AR carbine and AR SPR from a couple of different positions.  After taking photos of the targets and doing a bunch of CSI/Photoshop work to get a measurement of an off-paper impact, I just realized that my carbine measures a disappointing 18.25" when including the YHM QD Phantom flash hider .... so I guess I don't have anything to enter in the < 18" Iron Sight category after all.  That entry would have been a sad 8.54 MOA (or much happier 5.49 MOA if I hadn't pulled that shot.)

But, I can enter my SPR results.  The sling was only used for transport (motorcycle) and not for shooting.

For the > 18" category, here are my entries ...

#1 Iron Sights 18" and over:





2 min 41 sec to sit down, fire 15 rounds, eject the magazine and set to safe

Iron Sights 18" and over
L_JE - Noveske/WOA 5.56 - 20.125" total bbl - Troy BUIS - RRA 2 stage trigger - Federal Bulk .223 55FMJ - sitting - 6.15" = 5.87 MOA


#2 Optical Sighted 18" and over:





2 min 20 sec to sit down, fire 15 rounds, eject the magazine and set to safe

Optical Sighted 18" and over
L_JE - Noveske/WOA 5.56 - 20.125" total bbl - Vortex PST 2.5-10x - RRA 2 stage trigger - Federal Bulk .223 55FMJ - sitting - 4.78" = 4.57 MOA

Very nice, L_JE!!

Post'em all!

I posted your results even tho they don't include the requisite 3 pictures.  Since you used a clear ruler I'll accept that.   LOL.

Cool rifles, too.  What do they weigh?

I've got a couple more to enter myself but I am stuck building fence while the ground is still soft.  All my shooting time is spent killing varmints in the plantation. There's light at the end of the tunnel now...  

Anyway...thanks for posting!

PS:  If you care to, just for interest sake, toss up a pic of your range.  I think we all enjoy seeing the range setups, terrain, etc.

EVR - Armalite AR10A4 7.62 NATO Caliber- 20" bbl - Irons {A2 Front installed by ADCO} - Speer 150 BTSP Handload - Sitting -  5.924 ES = 5.364 MOA

Now for a little experiment...   Below is a target shot at 100 METERS/109 YARDS instead of the SHTF Challenge "regulation" range of 100 YARDS.  I was curious if my 100 YARD group would be 92% of my 100 METER/109 YARD group.  It was close;

Hopefully headed to the range tomorrow morning.  I have a new snubby Dissipator upper build that I really am itching to try.  I will be trying my ARs as well as my custom (read Bubba) Type 53 nugget and M14, maybe even my AR pistol.  wish me luck
Cheers,
Geoff

Good luck and Please post your results!

You may regret that last part.

[For Information Only.  Not for Official Use.]

Here's my carbine that, per the rules of this thread, isn't in the carbine category owing to the long QD flash hider.  The total barrel length is 18.125".

And here's how I shot.  Through the magic of a cell phone pic, Excel and the Pythagorean Theorem, I was able to measure a 9.17" edge-to-edge group; an uninspiring 8.54 MOA.  
Pulling that one shot off paper hurt.
1 min 46 seconds to sit down, insert the magazine, fire, eject the magazine and put it on safe.



Thinking I could do better with my RDS than with the BUIS, I gave it another go on a different day.  Since my "carbine" is already kicked out of the <18" category, I said screw it, and attached my suppressor.

Wow.  I really like flubbing shots to the left. 8.62 MOA.  Quietly uninspiring.
1 min 39 seconds  to sit down, insert the magazine, fire, eject the magazine and put it on safe.



Well, if you're ready to give up and throw your rifle down, what better way to do it than with a French rifle?
Here's me shooting my MAS 49/56.

Voici les résultats médiocres.  Le 9.8 MOA.
3 min 20 seconds to sit down, insert a loaded magazine, fire 10 rounds, load another 5 rounds, hand my cell phone to an innocent bystander for a photo, fire 5 more rounds, and put it on safe.



How about a 1956 production Chinese SKS?

8.67 MOA. Ha!  That almost spells Mao!
2 min 4 seconds to sit down, fire 10 rounds, load another 5 rounds, fire 5 more rounds, and put it on safe.



AK47
[TBD]


M1 Carbine
[TBD]

________________________________________

The good news is that this is the first time I've fired my MAS 49/56 and SKS at paper.  Prior to this, all I knew is that they were minute-of-steel-plate.  I've already dialed in 2 clicks left on the MAS, and will be bringing my front sight tool to the range the next time I fire the SKS.  I'll get them centered up.

Definitely one of the best posts in this thread.

Thanks for posting!

Good shooting and thanks for posting the variety.

The commentary was top notch entertainment, too.

I got it, too, assisted by two years of college French! lol

I have grown tired of trying the the 1MOA all-day challenge (and failing) with the mk12, so I figured I would give this one try. And , to be honest, it's more fun and I'm definitely gonna try it again. The grass was too high to shoot while sitting so I had to kneel to be able to see the target.

My calipers weren't long enough to measure but 7 7/8= 7.875- .223= 7.652








secretwheelman - M4A1 Block II clone - BCM SOCOM 14.5" w/ SF3P: 16.7" - TA01NSN acog - no mods - Factory XM193 - Kneeling - 7.652" = 7.308 MOA


 

Sescretwheelman;

I think you math might be off;

If the 7.652 is measured from outside each farthest hole, then it should read;  7.652 - .224 {diameter of bullet} = 7.428 / 1.047 = 7.095.

Is that what the first measurement was?

Check and let us know as I think you shot better than you calculated.

7.875" was outside to outside.
 

Roger that and thanks for posting!!

Good shooting and I add it to the roster.

For the sake of science, I wanted to see how I'd do with "match" ammo in my SPR, rather than Federal Value Pack .233.  And, because I apparently hate the scientific method, I decided to screw up the whole comparison by shooting with my suppressor, whereas my previous SPR entry was unsuppressed.  

The interesting thing about the suppressor is that I have a -0.6MIL offset between cold bore and hot bore. From a rest, my uncorrected groups will typically be 0.75"x2.5".  However, if I dial in + elevation as I work my way to the bottom of the magazine, I can hold 0.75'x0.75" groups in the prone.  So, as I was shooting my SPR, I was dialing in +0.6MILs of elevation as I worked through the magazine.  
(barrel rigidity is a function of barrel temperature, and with the counterweight of a 20 oz suppressor, knowing elevation as f(T) is good to know)

#1  Optical Sighted 18" and over





2 min 41 sec to sit down, load the magazine, fire 15 rounds, eject the magazine and set to safe (which is the exact same time I had before with the scoped SPR)
The scope was set to 5x. 10x freaks me out when unsupported.

Optical Sighted 18" and over
L_JE - Noveske/WOA 5.56 - 27.75" total bbl (incl. YHM suppressor) - Vortex PST 2.5-10x - RRA 2 stage trigger - Fiocchi 77SMK - sitting - 3.78" = 3.61 MOA



#2 Iron Sights under 18"

Hey, I found something that fits into this category!




[And Photobucket sucks.  If you are seeing what I'm seeing, it looks like Photobucket is compressing the image well beyond what I uploaded, and isn't using a standard Discrete Cosine Transform as part of its process.]

4 min 37 seconds to sit down, load the magazine, fire 15 rounds, eject the magazine and set to safe
(I encountered several jams b/c the mag was bouncing off my shin; had to separate the upper from the lower to clear two of them!)

Iron Sights under 18"
L_JE - Spikes/Adco 9mm - 7.5" total bbl - Magpul BUPS - Winchester 115FMJ - sitting - 14.14" = 13.5 MOA


[For Information Only.  Not for Official Use.]

The first attempt with the AK47 (WASR 10/63) was a horrific  14.7" CTC, perhaps because the magazine was bouncing off of my shin.  My second attempt was surprisingly good, by my standards, anyway.





2 min 19 sec to sit down, load the magazine, fire 15 rounds, eject the magazine and engage that communist clunker of a safety.
6.87 MOA - Gloriously adequate for the Motherland, comrade.


Next up was my M1 Carbine.  It's a reproduction manufactured by IMI, and it has adjustable rear sights, and it looks like my windage was about 1 click too far to the left (and I think I know who did this).





2 min 14 sec to sit down, load the magazine, fire 15 rounds, eject the magazine and engage the safety.
7.95 MOA  But, I thought I'd do better that with the M1C.  Regardless, it doesn't diminish my love of this little rifle.

Awesome work here.  Especially interested to see a carbine!

Thanks much for posting and if you have any more rifle in the collection add them for comparative purposes.  It is interesting to see how well your AR performs by comparison.

I went back to the range today to re-visit my 9mm pistol.

As I mentioned earlier, my previous attempt was sitting with a 20 round magazine, and I was resting the magazine on my knee, which, among other things, caused a number of stoppages.

However, it occurred to me that resting the magazine was creating a fulcrum near the cg of the pistol, and likely affecting my POI.  So, I shot this latest round with my forearm on my knee, rather than the magazine.

The results speak for themselves.  Feel free to compare these results with my first attempt, a couple posts above.

#1 Iron Sights under 18"





4 min 17 sec to sit down, insert the magazine, fire 15 rounds, clear one stoppage, defog my eyeglasses a couple of times, eject the magazine, and engage safety

Iron Sights under 18"
L_JE - Spikes/Adco 9mm - 7.5" total bbl - Magpul BUPS - Winchester 115FMJ - sitting - 9.77" = 9.33 MOA

This is about a 30% improvement over my first attempt, but more curiously, it's about a 6-7 MOA shift in average POI - even though no changes were made to the sights or sight picture.  I guess not all points of support are created equal?



[For Information Only.  Not for Official Use.]

I also wanted to give a go with my RPK 47 (AES-10B).  I seldom have a reason to open carry something like my RPK, but I got the chance today.  I misplaced the 2" Velcro straps that I use to lash my cases to my bike, so I OC'd the RPK and 9mm pistol on the motorcycle.  The RPK only weighs 12.2 lbs unloaded, but it just seems to carry awkwardly.





2 min 27 sec to sit down, insert the magazine, fire 15 rounds, eject the magazine, and engage a safety that'd make Archimedes smile.
6.82 MOA - Minute of Capitalist Pig - even after much vodka.

Very good job LJ.

I must be missing something but I can only count 14 shots on the pistol target.  The rules require a pic of the target-only so we can count holes, but I made an Administrative Decision to let you go with the clear ruler but somehow I can't find Shot 15...maybe under the ruler?  Help me out here and I'll post you up again.

Your entries are excellent and really informative and interesting.  Great shooting and thanks very much for your efforts!!

Two of the shots are touching.  Another shot was accidentally under the ruler.  Should have also posted this pic, since it was an official entry.

 

Now I see it in the original pic.  Thanks.  I added the entry and noted that it is an AR pistol.

BTW:  For others reading this.  If the second pic shown was the entry pic it would be disqualified by the additional holes in it.  I missed seeing a hole that was on the backer above the ARFCOM target.  I see it now on the original target.  

To clarify;  Targets that have any more than 15 holes on them are DQ'd, so to those who don't already know, the ARFCOM target and backer cannot have any holes other than the counted 15 for "score".

We've had some great entries here this spring but I'm going to bump it again as it seems to be shooting season and maybe there are those who might want to give this a try.

Smallwoods – Miscellaneous AR-15 w/Lothar Walther very very lightweight profile stainless carbine 1:8 223 Wylde – Barrel Length: 17.13in including A2 flash hider - Leupold VX-3 1.75-6 in Pimary Arms mount (group shot with scope set at 6X) -my Geisselle DMR trigger is the only useful mod, as far as shooting groups goes– Ammunition: Fiocchi 223 55gn FMJBT (this ammo makes 1 MOA wide X 2-3 MOA tall groups in my rifle rested) - Shooting Position Used:  seated, elbows in front of knees, no sling, offhand index finger pulling the rifle into the pocket by the open front end of the handguard, sweating in the SC heat – Group Size: 5.4 Inches = 5.2 MOA {100 yard Group size divided by 1.047}

This is a great thread, and real, useful shooting practice.  We should do one offhand!

Help me out.

I can only count 14 shots.  There must be one in one of the clumps?

Yes. The 2 shots on top of one another in the black at 1:00 are actually 3 shots, although it's hard to tell from the picture.

Another spin off, I'm damn impressed with myself

No problem!

Results are updated!

Good shooting and thanks for joining in!!!

We don't know who you are or what you are typing about but if you shoot the Challenge we might have a chance to be impressed with you so you don't have to be impressed all alone by yourself..

This post probably will not qualify for the record book, but it does qualify as an attempt.  This will be the worst shooting in the thread.  I don't have a picture of the full spread of the group as only 9 of the 15 are on paper, and 3 missed the target backer.  The spread of the 12 holes I could find is about 17 inches. The 9 on paper have an extreme spread of 10 inches.  I paced the range both ways, and at 5.3 feet per pace, I took 57 paces out and 58 back.  302-307 feet, 101-102 yds. That was where I planted my butt, so the muzzle could be a bit under 100 yd.  

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7yBr-W52wFDVUFpNl9faUxXVnM/edit?usp=docslist_api

My rifle is a PSA premium upper, with a mid-length 16" CHF chrome lined government profile 1/7 twist barrel.  The muzzle device is a Stryker Tactical compensator made by 5.56 Tactical.  The barrel OAL is 17.75 inches. I use a standard fsb and detachable carry handle.  The lower is an 80% polymer base, finished with PSA lower parts, KNS pins, and an ALG AC trigger.  It has a Magpul fixed carbine stock and shitty single-point sling.  

I shot steel case Tulammo .223 55gr. FMJ. 3 minutes to sit down, click a dry shot, load a magazine, shoot 5, click a second dry shot, load 10 and finish the string.

This is the target on the backer.  The 12 holes I could count includes the ding on the flap near the bottom.  That ding is about 17 inches from the hole in the top tape, as measured by my handspan.  When I took the picture I was in a rush and was disappointed with my results, and didn't have a measuring tool. I partly blame me for drifting the poa between a 6 oclock to center mass hold, and partly blame the wind, which picked up after I shot some rested groups to verify the zero.   I didn't think about it utility I changed magazines.  Is a few inches of drift normal for 15 to 25 mph wind? My other rifle is a Mosin Nagant and it is not affected by wind at 100 yd.  
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7yBr-W52wFDVHlCNUh0eDk5Y3M/edit?usp=docslist_api

Comando293 - PSA mid-length 5.56 Nato - 17.75" barrel OAL - carry handle/A2 fsb - ALG AC trigger - 55gr. .223 rem Tulammo - 17"/16.9 MOA

Thanks for the writeup! I wish more would post their results regardless of what they are and also their experience while shooting.  I can't add yours to the listings because it doesn't meet the format requirements {see rules} but don't let that stop you.  Get a bigger, clean backer where all shots can be counted and measured and have another go at it!  

As for wind drift, it is difficult to say exactly what impact that had on your specific target.

However, you can use this calculator to determine wind effect.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi

Hope to see you posting more.

EVR in the picture you posted in OP is your left elbow on your leg or unsupported?

Resting on my other knee.

Pretty much like this;

Thank yout for your encouragment, and posting those pictures.  That position looks way more comfortable than what I was doing.  I'm basically learning to shoot from forums, Youtube, and a pdf copy of the US MC  marksmanship manual,  so every nugget helps.   I'll ty again as soon as I can.  I shot this group earlier.  I used a rest on the top of my car.  I really yanked that flier out into left field. It was more like 18-24 inches left of the the plate.  I ripped the tape off that had bisected the plate vertically.  I tried to hold with the front sight across the center.  I used my binoculars and picked up some of the holes in the middle and felt pretty good about the group.  The range got busy or I would have walked d it before trying the challenge.  If I had seen the exact group i think I would have added more windage.

I see, and I am just guessing but sitting on something like in the pictures makes a more stable shooting platform?
 

Good question!

The pix here are not from my 100 yard spot {shot from the ground} but are on my range from 100 meters on out to 200 meters.  My original entry was shot at 100 meters from the pad not 100 yards where where the ground is flat and I shoot from the ground.  Subsequent entries I moved closer to the target and shot from 100 YARDS, from right slam on the ground so I didn't have to do the math conversion.  By the way, I did a little experiment back a few pages to show the difference which worked out pretty close mathematically, tho the 100 meter group was still larger than mathematically expected.

As for the Challenge I don't really care since ground slopes this way and that and guys might be sitting in a ditch or whatever.  Frankly, I don't really care if somebody shoots it from a chair to get more people shooting and posting {some ranges I understand will not let you shoot unless you are seated in a chair} as long as they are not resting on the bench or leaning on a fence or tree, shooting sticks, etc.  Actually, shooting from a chair is not that easy for most people and is a bit of what might be called a disadvantage I guess.  

BTW:  Reason we have a pad, tire or box on some of the shooting distances is our range goes uphill to the backstop {nothing is flat around here LOL} and the ground rolls so it puts you in hole sometimes depending on the distance.  100 YARDS is flat, 100 meters is a dip, 200 ditto, 150 is flat, and so on.  At 500 meters we are shooting DOWN and at 800 flat.

I disagree that shooting from pad, chair or bump in the ground is an advantage.  Most of my best groups are shot from the ground as indicated on the Challenge where I can get very steady.  Nothing is more stable than the ground.

Anyway, if somebody wants to shoot the Challenge from horseback, that's OK, too...as long as he is sitting in the saddle and not resting on the dead horse!!!

Just show us the pic!!  

That is why I wanted to have pictures posted showing the position as I bet whe might come up with some interesting UNsupported shooting positions.

If they get too crazy we can always have a ruling.

Get out and shoot!

This thing is supposed to be fun!

So here is round 2.  
target

with all holes marked

measures 12 and 11/16.  


This time I shot with 55gr AE  XM193.  The ammo seemed to be printing to the right of the tula I shot the other day. But the vertical string makes me think I over did it. The wind was not as strong  today.  At least I found all 15 holes.    I used a position like the one EVR demonstrated, but I sat on a slight rise in the ground.  I think a few more inches, like a tire or cinder block, would be perfect.  

12.6875-.224 = 12.4635/1.047 = 11.904 MOA

Those 47 thousandths add up.

Edit: same rifle as above.  

Comando293 - PSA mid-length 5.56 Nato - 17.75" barrel OAL - carry handle/A2 fsb - ALG AC trigger - 55gr. AE XM193 - 12.46 inches/11.90 MOA

This is a place holder.

Carbine # 1 will be the SBR:
11.5" DD gov't profile barrel + YHM phantom suppressor QD mount. I don't know if I'll use the can.
Optic - primary arms 2.5x scope


Carbine # 2 will be the 14.5:
14.5 BCM socom upper with pinned A2X
Optic - aimpoint pro

Ammo will be one of the following:
55 grain Wolf Gold
55 grain Brown Bear FMJ
62 grain Brown Bear HP

I'll let you guys decide which I use, as I don't think it will really matter.

commando293;

thanks and i'll post it but you need to give us a pic of the rifle, too!!  



Rules;  "You must post 1 picture of the fired target uncluttered by anything else, 1 picture of the target with ruler, etc measuring the extreme spread of the group itself, 1 picture of the rifle"

Had a brain fart moment today and left target at the range, and I know this wont get posted, but here is a first try.


































 

@ EVR
The picture is there, you just have to scroll up to my first post.  

I was reading the listings, and was thoroughly shocked that I did not have the widest group posted.  Those tiny groups leading the pack inspired me.  I'll have to do it again soon.  If the morning clouds the weatherman promised would stick around I'd be all over it.  The air was creeping towards 95f and the only shade was my hat.  Not the most fun when shooting off the ground.  

I think it is some kind of editing error,  but it looks like a scoped rifle is leading the irons rifle division.  



If you don't have a prefered ammo and rifle combination, then shoot the cheapest, or the type you have the most of.  That way you can shoot it twice without changing anything.  Trust me, you'll want to do it more than once.

OK but stick it in the post with the relevant shooting so we don't have to search for it.

Thanks for the tip on the mistake.  I'm checking into it now.  I also found another typo and fixed that.  I'll get that figured out.

Damn this challenge was fun but hard.

jukeboxx:

THANKS for posting and yeah...I gotta DQ you but...do it again!

It IS fun, isn't it?  Makes me want to get a few more ARs so I have more to shoot.  LOL.  



To all;

General Update;  Use a large clean backer with no extra holes.

I've got a case of each

OK fellows.

So we really do not have a large sample but what I decided to do was take the 4 best scores from each division and average them out.  Here's what I found, and it is interesting...

Iron Sights Carbine     5.717 MOA

Iron Sights Rifle          5.531 MOA

Scoped Carbine          3.870 MOA

Scoped Rifle               3.923 MOA

Check out the top ranking;

Scoped Carbine.

I am not surprised.  For example, I shoot my scoped cabine very well in the field and have killed many varmints with it.  RESTED, not so good!  I shot my rifle on a ruscksack 1 MOA Challenge thread to sub-MOA.  Even tho the carbine is only a 2.5" grouper from bench...I shoot it more accurately than my sub-MOA rifle from an unsupported field position!  Fact.

I wish we had a few more 7.62/.308's as I have a theory about those guns and that is this;  I think some are highly accurate but I will be a little surprised to see any rank at the top of any of the categories regardless of what their prone/bench groups are like.

I'm a couple weeks out from shooting this with my scoped FAL, but I don't expect to challenge any of the current top scores.

Sounds good! Add an AR too if you can.

I am really curious as to how the .308 AR crowd can perform in this Challenge also.

Off topic, but I think everyone will enjoy this video as the two guys are shooting unsupported out to 400 yards.




 

Great timing juke!  That looks like a really fun course.

Really funny you posted this today as I am working out a new course of fire on the place here.  We are working out the details but it will incorporate something like the following;  2 shots fired at the following ranges and positions;  prone 400 meters, prone 300 meters, sitting or kneeling 200 yards, sitting or kneeling 150 meters, sitting or kneeling 100, standing 75 meters.  It will be timed.  We'll try to work out the trail to allow for skiing the course in winter which is somewhat difficult as my range is in a gully wash and very rough ground so it is not set-piece like these guys' place.

We can shoot out to 1000 meters but the course is designed to emphasize practical skill on game shooting. Target is the Norwegian government reinsdyrblinker prøve.  This is the annual hunting test requirement.  This target is large but has a 30 cm invisible kill zone.  The only hits that are scored will be those inside the invisible kill zone. I already require everyone who hunts on my ranch to put 5 shots into this "døde sone" from 100 meters unsupported.

The large target in the back is the reinsdyrblinker.