Does anyone have one of the new Windham Weaponry firearms?  I'm thinking about picking up the MPC model, with the HBC as my next choice.

The MSRP on these are $1086 and $1096.  I can get the HBC model for $814.  This seems like a great deal to me.  Its just going to be a plinker, and the WW looks like it will get the job done.

I've called in to speak with their Customer Service department and they seem like great people really working to make the customer happy.

To make a long story short, does anyone here a Windham Weaponry firearm?  What do you think about it?

I love the look of this puppy (although, I will probably put a Magpul MOE stock on it the first day):
http://www.windhamweaponry.com/images/rifles/MPC-L.jpg

I was going to get a Smith & Wesson M&P 15 Sport, but I can't find one anywhere.  Let me take that back, I found a couple and they looked liked they were assembled by someone with two left hands.  Nicks and dings galore.

I was close to buying a WW SRC but went with the Sig M400 instead. It was only a little more but the 1:7 twist and mil-spec receiver extension are what leaned me towards the Sig. Although if you're just plinking with it I don't suppose that would matter. However you could shoot a wider variety of bullet weights with the 1:7 with greater success...or so I've been told.

Go with the new Bushmaster company out of Ilion NY.

The QC is alot better than the old Winham ME Bushmaster QC buy  quite q bit.

i went the other direction. i looked at the w.w. and the fit and finish was terrible.  ended up buying the M&P.  to each his own. its all good.

Really?  I've heard different.  I haven't heard too many good things of the Bushmasters coming out of Illion NY.

Maybe the employees at the shop dinged it up.  If I found a good one, I'd go with the M&P 15 Sport.

Does anyone own a Windham Weaponry?

two different shops, same problem.

Have you been to the WW industry subforum yet?

http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_2/489_Windham_Weaponry.html

I have a Windham Weaponry MPC. I've only had it for a couple of months and have a thousand or so rounds through it. I have had zero problems. The fit and finish look good. It will shoot MOA with several loads I have tried. It far exceeds the expectations I had when I bought it.

I don't know why so many people on these forums badmouth this company when they don't own any of its products or have any direct experience with them. Leftover anger at Bushmaster I guess. Everyone who actually has a WW rifle has good things to say about it. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the other "experts".

The customer service is beyond good: it is outstanding. I needed a small part due to my own error - I lost it. I called the factory and told them this. No phone tree - human answered the phone. I had a replacement the next day free of charge - part was free, shipping was free. I have called them a few other times just for some information. Always a knowledgeable human answers the phone and takes however long it takes to make me happy. I've never seen CS like this from any company making any product - gun related or not.

I got mine for about $880.00.

Now that is good to hear.  I'm so close to putting in an order on the MPC model for $819, seems like a great deal.

Go get it. Great American company story and I'd love to support them but I'm not in the market. I'll feel better if you buy it.

I spent a good 2 months doing my homework on what brand and type of rifle to get for my first AR. I gentlemen mentioned Windham Weaponry to me and told me the story behind the company. I looked into it some more, and even called the company several times with inquiries about their guns. The staff was nothing short of exceptionally helpful and informative. I finally decided upon an MPC model. Upon first handling the rifle I felt like I was holding a rifle of much better quality than the price tag. Very well built, finish and fit were superb. My first trip to the range consisted of a good 200 rounds down range, some steel cases Tula and some ultramax brass. Not a single issue, and groups at 50yards were more than satisfactory. All in all I'm extremely happy with my MPC and the folks at Windham are a great bunch of folks. If I decide to buy another AR it will be a Windham.

I have a Windham SRC (no sights) and am pleased with it.
I've shot about 200 various rounds through it including my handloads.
I wasn't put off by the 1/9 twist, all my ammo is 55-62 gr.
Wal-Mart sells it for ~$800 and I added Magpul MBUS folding sights. I like having the sight out of the way when I don't need it, and the front sight on my other AR bothered my 7&8 year olds; they do better when they only have to focus on the red dot.
The bolt was staked, lifetime warranty, 4150 barrel steel. Would buy again.

I went and looked at the WW MPC at Academy.  Very nice gun, it was built very well.  The buffer tube looks kind of cheap (maybe with it being shiny?  who knows) but other than that it looks like a great rifle.  Also, there was almost no slop between the upper and lower.

Now if I can get the courage of putting money down and ordering a rifle.  I always like to inspect firearms before I buy, it looks like that may not be the case this time.  I would have bought one at Academy if they had more than the display model.

My wife & I both have one and we love them, no issues!

Ummmmmm no.

WW is the original owner of BM who re-opened a company in the original BM location after Freedom Group closed the plant and fired the employees (which they said they would not do).
A lot of BM employees were rehired by WW.

An American success story IMHO.

OTOH if opinions posted on the web are to be believed, BM quality is suffering at the NY plant.

I have an HBC.
It is a tad front-heavier than another carbine I built with an M4 profile barrel, but you will have a hard time flexing the barrel with the handguard with the heavy barrel.
That and the lack of the grenade launcher groove make it look right to me, even though it's a carbine gas 16" barrel.
It has been rock solid through the 1200 rounds I've put through it, other than a few feed problems caused by the used GI mags I had... put Magpul anti-tilt followers in them and have not had even a hiccup since.

WW is GTG in my book.

Joe

I doubt the one you order will be any different in fit and finish.
My upper and lower are still snug after 1200 rounds.

Joe

Where is everyone getting these for $814.00 ??  I see them at Cabelas for around $899.00

Local gun shops ($819-849).  Cabelas has the highest prices in town.  They also don't have the MPC at Cabelas.

I to have been looking at the Windham AR's and after all my research they seem to be about the best buy for the money.  I checked the charts for the best AR based on how they were made and assembled.  The windham has nearly the same attributes as the best on the list.  The main difference seems to be the 1in9 twist of the barrel.  According to my research it will stabilize bullet weights up to about 69.  I like the history of the company and the testimonials and will probably get the MPC.  Some experts have said that they were very impressed with these weapons and had bought one also.  Finally I dont like the idea of paying for a name instead of quality.  Some companies seem to riding the current buying spree by raising prices and getting as much for their weapons as possible.

I have the MPC and I agree with the other WW owners. Very good fit and finish. My first AR and I am glad I didn't get the M&P sport, the fit and finish didn't even compare between the two rifles I handled at my local Academy Sports.

Few pics of how I set my MPC set up with MOE furnature.







Off topic here, but I wonder why the Windham gets pretty good reviews here for the most part, but at m4carbine.net they pretty much trash Windhams as being complete junk.

Maybe it's because most of them feel there is no way a $800 or so AR could possibly be comparable to their Colt, BCM, DD, etc?

That looks fantastic!!

I ended up buying an M&P 15 Sport, BUT I'm wishing I would have got the WW MPC.

I am going to sell the Sport ASAP and get the MPC. Nothing particularly is wrong with the Sport, except for mediocre fit and finish. I would rather support WW.

Thanks.

If I were you I'd just keep the M&P. I am sure it's a very good weapon. Unless you can find someone that will give you pretty much what you paid for it.

I would've gotten a Sport, but no one had any. Ordered one from Cabelas but in the week it took to get it, I found the WW MPC and I am glad I did.

I'm not usually a signup date / post count whore - but I have noticed something odd about the Windham "reviews."  

Almost all the Windham "reviewers" have signup dates within the last couple of months, double digit post counts, and give tend to give the impression that they're not what would typically be called "high volume shooters."  I think "high reported" round counts so far have been in the area of 1,000 rounds.  

Not to shit on you or other new posters - but you are trying to shit on people who have been owning, shooting, and often using for life and livelihood, and who have been dedicated hobbyists for several years and have spent the time researching and discussing the topic with other like minded people.  Furthermore, a lot of these folks are working on their fourth or fifth Noveske or SR-15, so to say they're simply reluctant to or can't afford a new rifle that appears to have something to offer them in plainly incorrect.  

On the other hand, the Windham supporters seem to be a repeat of the "Great Tin Foil Hat Making Craze of '09," either that, or they apparently just discovered the internet - how hard is it to find "ar15.com" as soon as you decide to do some research on the AR15?  Meaning, if you're just finding this site, you've probably just started researching the platform.  Not always, but I would venture that it's a fair assessment of at least 85% of new posters.  Which there's nothing wrong with - we were all new to the game at one point in time.  

However, we tend to get an inordinate number of "I ETSed as a keyboard puncher from the Air Force after a six year stint fifteen years ago - so I have decades of experience shooting the M16 and AR15 platform!"  

Facts about Windham as we know it:

1.  For all intents and purposes, Windham Weaponry is the old owner and employees of Bushmaster of Windham, Maine, re-entering the market upon expiration of the non-compete clause.  

2. Nevertheless, Windham is still a new and unproven company.  It's still a newly starting up venture, and will probably have the same starting up pains as any new manufacturer, if nothing else, these guys have been out of the game for at least five years.  They're probably in a much more tenuous financial position than they were before the sale to Cerebus, and they're literally competing against their own brand name - that they're "the old Bushmaster" is one of their strong selling points.  

3. As I've alluded to above, Windham has done little to distinguish or distance themselves from the old Bushmaster pre-Freedom Group.  Other than a couple minor tweaks here and there, they're essentially re-issuing old Bushmaster rifles under a new brand name.  However, even prior to Freedom Group / Cerebus' buying Bushmaster, Bushmaster's time had come and gone, and they weren't impressing anyone.  It's not they were bad - but they didn't offer much over competing brands.  Bushmaster of Windham's (henceforth known as BoW) heyday was before and during the ban, when there were very few commercial manufacturers of ARs, and Colt's were often prohibitively priced to the hobbyist.  At the time, they offered a decent commercially available rifle at a price point that was attractive.  In 2002, that was great news.  In 2012, with companies like BCM, LMT, DD, et al offering well priced, high performance, well spec'ed commercial offerings, BoW and WW's day has long since passed.

Realize that Colt never adjusted their pricing scale based on competition from BoW or DPMS or Sendra or Eagle Arms for almost thirty years.  They weren't competing in the same market, and Colt had no need to - but now, Colt has several competitors on or above their level, and they've begun adjusting the prices to the market in response.  

Along comes Windham Weaponry, a resurrected BoW, slightly more attractively priced, but still not offering much more than BoW offered in the first place, with the added uncertainty of being a new, unproven company with no track record.  

So... forgive us if no one is chomping at the bit to try out, wring out, and endorse a decade too late re-tread of an aging formula.  

~Augee

If you read the OP he asked if anyone owned a WW and what our thoughts were about these rifles. Not "which brand is better".

Augee:

That's a lot of verbage, and I'm still not sure what your point is. You, and others who you perceive to be like you have no interest in Windham Weaponry. OK. Makes sense. But why go to all the trouble to write such a long post just to say you're not interested?

Windham weaponry has a short track record, but every account I've seen from anyone who owns one is very positive. Time will tell whether or not WW becomes a strong player in this game, and whether or not their products will stand up to continued use over a long period of time. You don't want to do the experiment. OK. No one asked you to.

And, if you don't own one, no one asked for your opinion.

First AR I ever shot.  Only shot 60 rounds.  Had two malfunctions.  I wouldn't buy one but this is from my  previous experience shooting with one.

I posted in direct response to a question another member in the thread posted, I quoted it in my original post, but for clarity, I'll post it again:



That poster admitted that he was going a little off topic, but I decided to address it.

If topics on ARFCOM stayed 100% on topic and ended when the OP's question and the OP's question alone had been answered, ARFCOM would be a very quiet place.

If you want a forum full of "yes men" there's a Windham Weaponry section in the Industry Forum.  One doesn't have to own something to express the opinion that they're unimpressed by what is purported to be offered at the price point it's offered at or the reviews that so far exist for the product.  

~Augee

I was just saying that over there they feel that pretty much anything that isn't a Colt, DD, BCM is a completely unreliable POS. I believe they are completely wrong. They talk about life and livelihood... most WW owners report of 1,000 - 2,000 rounds w/o malfunction - what kind of a situation could any of us find ourselves (law enforcement included) in where we have to fire over 1,000 rounds? Seriously think about it. ANY weapon can malfunction at anytime, even the great Colts, DD, BCM's.

Those 3 example brands are proven to be reliable and I am not trying to say they are not great, but I really don't think if the SHTF it would make much difference. What does SHTF really mean? You have an intruder in the house? Maybe it’s 2 or even 5! How many magazine are you going to go through? How about in a law enforcement atmosphere… Here is one example link

I searched and most I could find involving law enforcement was 100 rounds or less fired.



Well, I am not a M16/AR15 expert, but I did 6 years (4 active 2 reserve) in the USMC as a MP at MCAS Yuma AZ (not an USAF keyboard puncher) and although I didn't train all that much with the M16 I experienced probably a dozen or malfunctions with the M16A2 in my time in the Corps. And most of these were at the range in good conditions. Now, unknown how many tens of thousands of rounds were fired through these weapons, but my point is any weapon can malfunction and any time.

The WW “specs”  compared to a BCM, Colt, DD are not THAT much different. And the few that are different, wouldn’t mean a hill of beans if the “SHTF” IMHO.

Yeah, it's a lot of verable, but if you dont wanna read it, move on.

Fair enough. But, you got rid of a lot of words without really answering the question. You could say everything you said about WW (or similar) about many other companies starting out. Yet I, and evidently the OP, have never seen so many people go so far out of their way to try to convince an audience not to buy a product with which they had no direct experience. There really is something about WW that seems to offend some people. Your lengthy post really doesn't explain that.

And, of course you are free to express any opinion you want about any subject you want. But if I were looking to buy my first AR, as is or was the OP and probably hundreds of other people who will read this thread, I would pay a lot more attention to the opinions of people who actually had experience with the product, and the customer service behind the product.

Sometimes you have to fully explain the situation to make a point and Augee hit the nail on the head.

There is a market with new shooter/hobbyists for this type of rifle and level of price/quality. But, I too have have sensed that "essence of shilling" with even the number of WW posts, let alone the post date/content.

Especially when you consider the sheer number of similarly priced and similar quality products on the market. The repetitive "Who here has a WW" or "Thinking about a WW vs XX" seems forced.

I do not mean to call any one particular poster out... but Augee said what a lot of knowledgeable members are probably thinking.

Well, if the question is "Why is there so much interest in this company?", that's easy. It has had write ups in a lot of gun magazines and websites - including "The American Rifleman", telling the story of the death/rebirth of this company. All the write ups I've seen have been very positive about the company, the fact that it rose from the ashes and gave a lot of people their jobs back, and etc. And the product reviews have been positive. On top of that, a lot of dealers are recommending them to their customers - including all the dealers in this area. That's where the interest comes from I'm sure. A lot of people are excited about the company.

I'm excited about the company. Only partly because of its story, and mostly because of the way they have treated me. When I get treated well, I say so. And say so. When I get treated badly I do the same. It's just something I do. You don't have to look any deeper than that for my motivation.

If I hit 3000 rounds and something really bad happens, I'll say so about that, too.

You should be glad that a lot of people are buying these guns. It means you don't have to. If they turn out to be substandard, it's our money and time to do the testing, and not yours.

The only valid complaints I have seen towards Windham Weaponry are the castle nut not being staked, not having a milspec buffer tube, and the 1/9 twist.  The complaints about the gas keys not being properly staked are not true.

When I joined arfcom has little to do with how much I've explored the history of the AR platform.
Before the AR platform market explosion, Bushmaster had a good name and a good reputation.
That was, coincidentally, back when the founder of WW owned and operated BM.

When I bought mine, I was glad to support a company that, although newly formed, was owned and operated by and employed people with hundreds of years of combined experience.
The owner hired back many of those discarded by the conglomerate that bought BM.
A phoenix.

The fit and finish of my $820 HBC is way better than my friends Colt Match whatever the hell it is.
In my limited (and admittedly challenged) accuracy testing, My HBC has shot as accurately as any other AR I've fired (6 in total) with 55 grain 5.56 ball ammo.
After approx 1000 rounds the upper and lower fit is still snug as the day I bought it. The lower has at least another 500 rounds on it as it was the only lower I owned for a while.
To top it all off, my weapon has a lifetime warranty.

I guess I just take it for granted that it will always work. I pretty much shoot it, clean it (sometimes), then take it out and shoot it again.

Obviously a sample size of one doesn't compare to the mounds of data available on brands that have been out for years or decades.

Interesting news, POF and Windham along with a 3rd partner have a new factory in Phoenix to produce .308 rifles. Looks like at least one upper shelf AR manufacturer has faith in Windham Weaponry.

Joe

I still think the M&P Sport you just bought will serve you just fine.

A good test would be to run 3 fully loaded 30 round mags and fire them as fast as you can

Let the gun cool for about 5 minutes then do it all over again until you get to about 500 rounds.

If you have zero malfunction - you have a rock solid weapon, reguardless of brand.

Just bear in mind that gun magazines ALWAYS give positive reviews.  And just because they "rose from the ashes" and gave people their jobs back does not mean that the product is worthwhile.  Lastly, that fact that dealers are recommending them to their customers provides no bearing on their quality.  Many dealers do not know shit about anything, and most dealers simply push what they have in stock.

Your argument for WW basically boils down to very little.

I agree.

I have heard a lot of about the story with WW coming back and I am glad they got their jobs back. But it boils down to quality. I have never bought an American car, because I feel the quality isn’t the same as imports. I will gladly buy a Toyota over a Ford/Chevy even though I have to pay more for the Toyota because I feel it’s better quality. I felt I got a quality firearm with second to none customer service for what I paid for the weapon.

I am sure there are other companies that have equal customer service, but I don’t think you can name one that has them beat.

That’s why I am proud to own a WW rifle, not because it’s a “feel” good story.

WW is always going to have the BM cloud over them and there will always be doubters – understandably because of it.

Actually, in this case I wasn't arguing for Windham Weaponry at all. I was explaining why there is a lot of interest in the company and its products, since that question was raised. I was responding to rjb_213's post in which he said (more or less) that the number of inquiries about the brand seemed forced and possibly suspicious.

There is some truth in what you say, although nothing you say is always true. There are a lot of dealers who are very knowledgeable and want to serve their customers. Others not so much. "The American Rifleman", for example, does not always give reviews that are nearly as positive as the one they gave WW. Some magazines gush about everything. However nothing you say means that the factors I listed will not create interest and inquiries. Thus, there is nothing suspicious about the many inquiries about WW on this and other forums.

Whether you like WW or not, they are getting a lot of attention, and dealers (by and large) like them. So people are going to inquire about them on the Internet.

I don't buy it... There have been AR "stories" in the rags for years, on a multitude of brands... but ARFCOM isn't suddenly infused with multiple new members giving "reviews" and "arguing" the merits of said brands because it was in "The American Rifleman".  A quick search shows multiple recent Windham threads all started by posters with join dates in the last few months and very low post counts... and kept alive by similar posters. There is nothing special about these rifles, they are about as interesting as vanilla ice cream... I rarely post and like Augee rarely care about this type of stuff... but I just don't buy it.

I don't have to buy a Yugo to know that it is a POS.

This is getting downright comical.

All this talk about price-points, & balking about low post-counts/shilling....

Hell - Just go get yourself a Colt 6920 (for about the same damn price-point) & let Windham Weapons worry about (or prove or disprove) whether or not their weapons are worth buying...

For what it's worth, I bought a Bushmaster (of Windham, ME) as the base for an A4 clone build back in 2007. It came with a canted, standard-height front sight-base & a non-standard height (ie: commercial) carry-handle, and as the .gov-profile A2 barrel would heat up from firing, the POI would shift from left to right @ 8 inches at 100 yards. Was I disappointed with the quality of manufacture?.... yes. Did I bitch to BM about it?...No, because it didn't make any sense to send it back to be repaired by the very same individuals that screwed it up in the first place. Luckily, I had the proper tools, time, & ability to make the necessary  repairs myself.

So reportedly, the "new" Windham Weapons are constructed by the very same worker-bees, using the very same equipment, in the very same building as when they were known as "Bushmaster Firearms"... Now maybe I'm being overly-skeptical, but I highly doubt that taking a five year hiatus from firearms manufacture has made them any better at it...

Augee's post nailed it on the head with me. Unlike him, I hadn't bothered to take note of post counts or such, but the constant boosterism coupled with various repeat phrases ("love their story") made me uneasy about whether I could take any of the information at face value.

I don't particularly feel that WW puts out a bad product - I get the impression that it's very much a Stag/RR/BM/Del-ton type product and broadly comparable across that peer group. I happen to own a BM and four Stags, so you can't say I harbor any hatred of the "commercial" brands. But I do get queasy with the Astroturf-like feel of some of the pro-WW posts that I haven't seen in other brand threads. Augee's observation was actually very valuable to me, giving more a more concrete basis for what was entirely a gut-feel reaction previously.

Before I bought my W W I did a fair amt of research online. For me it came up to immediate availabilty.
If I could have found a Spikes, Bushmaster, DPMS, or Colt and be able to bring it home and molest it immediately I might have.
I found my AR at a LGS the price was fair, the quality was good and I could bring it home with me.
And I'm glad I did.

I knew nothing about Windham Weaponry rifles when I walked into Academy Sports and looked over the SW/M&P Sport and the WW MPC. I haven't joined ARFCOM until after I purchased my Windham. I did however have the intention of buying the M&P and did my research online about it. Once I got there I and did a side by side comparison I chose the WW because of the "fit and finish" of it. It just felt like it was more solidly built.

I will post my opinion on the Windham brand when asked and that is what it is "my opinion".

If someone wants to buy a specific brand, so be it, it is their money. If someone wants an opinion about a brand from owners of said brand, then that is what they should get, the owners opinion, not some "haters" rant about new members post count and join date that expects everyone else to buy the brand of rifle that he or she owns because no other brands are worth it. It is a free society ( for now) where people have the right to choose what they buy and should not be harrassed because they don't follow the "IN" crowd.

Anyway the OP wanted to know about WW and he mentioned the M&P sport and I put in my two cents.


Hey OP, I hope you enjoy whatever brand of rifle you decide to purchase and that you pass down the joy of shooting to your offspring one day.

To Each His Own

Rant over. Everyone have a good day.

I'm glad you joined AR15.com.  It is a great site, and I have learned a lot in my time here.  I'm glad you are enjoying your WW rifle too, and I hope that it serves you well for years to come.

But, when you have a lot of guys posting that they recommend WW because of the company's nice story or because the fit and finish seems nice, you have to expect some push back.  Guys are interested in things like specs, track record, and performance during hard use.  Things like fit and finish and the nice lady working in customer service are generally not primary concerns.

And, when someone like Augee speaks up, it is worthwile to listen instead of dismissing it as a "hater's rant."  Augee is a valuable member of this forum, and we can all learn a lot from him.

As you point out, everyone is entitled to an opinion.  We just can't take everything so personally.

One would have to be incredibly naive about how firearms work, and what they're made of to follow that advice.  "Burn the throat out of your barrel.  If that doesn't destroy the rest of the gun, it's wonderful".