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migkillertwo
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Posted: 3/1/2010 12:07:13 PM EST
Hi, I've been rethinking how I'm going to get my first AR. Right now I'm thinking of either getting an upper and complete lower from DSArms with an m4 barrel, or building an HBAR carbine from a Del-ton kit.

My question is this: will the thickness of the barrel make a noticeable difference in accuracy if I'm shooting within 100 yards? I've heard from a lot of sources that the m4 barrels aren't as accurate because they're kinda thin under the handguards.
MillerSHO
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Posted: 3/1/2010 12:10:03 PM EST
What is the overall goal of this setup you're purchasing?
RedWagon
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Posted: 3/1/2010 12:11:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By migkillertwo:
Hi, I've been rethinking how I'm going to get my first AR. Right now I'm thinking of either getting an upper and complete lower from DSArms with an m4 barrel, or building an HBAR carbine from a Del-ton kit.

My question is this: will the thickness of the barrel make a noticeable difference in accuracy if I'm shooting within 100 yards? I've heard from a lot of sources that the m4 barrels aren't as accurate because they're kinda thin under the handguards.


It isint just M4 barrels, any govt. profile barrel is thin under the handguards...
migkillertwo
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Posted: 3/1/2010 12:13:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By RedWagon:
Originally Posted By migkillertwo:
Hi, I've been rethinking how I'm going to get my first AR. Right now I'm thinking of either getting an upper and complete lower from DSArms with an m4 barrel, or building an HBAR carbine from a Del-ton kit.

My question is this: will the thickness of the barrel make a noticeable difference in accuracy if I'm shooting within 100 yards? I've heard from a lot of sources that the m4 barrels aren't as accurate because they're kinda thin under the handguards.


It isint just M4 barrels, any govt. profile barrel is thin under the handguards...


Yeah, I've hard, but I also heard from a del-ton sales rep that their 16" rifle kits are thick under the handguards

Regarding the goal for this setup, its mostly going to be a range toy and a home defense gun (and maybe, just maybe, a zombie killer if SHTF)
RedWagon
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Posted: 3/1/2010 12:22:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By migkillertwo:
Originally Posted By RedWagon:
Originally Posted By migkillertwo:
Hi, I've been rethinking how I'm going to get my first AR. Right now I'm thinking of either getting an upper and complete lower from DSArms with an m4 barrel, or building an HBAR carbine from a Del-ton kit.

My question is this: will the thickness of the barrel make a noticeable difference in accuracy if I'm shooting within 100 yards? I've heard from a lot of sources that the m4 barrels aren't as accurate because they're kinda thin under the handguards.


It isint just M4 barrels, any govt. profile barrel is thin under the handguards...


Yeah, I've hard, but I also heard from a del-ton sales rep that their 16" rifle kits are thick under the handguards

Regarding the goal for this setup, its mostly going to be a range toy and a home defense gun (and maybe, just maybe, a zombie killer if SHTF)


Unless your doing hard core training or shooting 500 meters, It will be fine.
MillerSHO
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Posted: 3/1/2010 12:25:59 PM EST
If it's a bench gun get the HBAR.

Anything less then that I prefer a govt profile barrel.

LoganSackett
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Posted: 3/1/2010 12:29:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By migkillertwo:
Originally Posted By RedWagon:
Originally Posted By migkillertwo:
Hi, I've been rethinking how I'm going to get my first AR. Right now I'm thinking of either getting an upper and complete lower from DSArms with an m4 barrel, or building an HBAR carbine from a Del-ton kit.

My question is this: will the thickness of the barrel make a noticeable difference in accuracy if I'm shooting within 100 yards? I've heard from a lot of sources that the m4 barrels aren't as accurate because they're kinda thin under the handguards.


It isint just M4 barrels, any govt. profile barrel is thin under the handguards...


Yeah, I've hard, but I also heard from a del-ton sales rep that their 16" rifle kits are thick under the handguards

Regarding the goal for this setup, its mostly going to be a range toy and a home defense gun (and maybe, just maybe, a zombie killer if SHTF)


I doubt you'd notice a difference in accuracy, unless you're handloading and shooting at very long ranges (ie much farther than 100y). You might as well get the M4 barrel and have a lighter rifle.
"Go take a long walk on a short pier"----my dad

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NCHornet
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Posted: 3/1/2010 12:33:36 PM EST
I am the minority here as I prefer the Hbar. The M4 will do fine but for most accuracy allow for proper cooling between rounds and you will be fine. The added weight of a Hbar just doesn't bother me. Good ;Luck.
Hero
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Posted: 3/1/2010 1:24:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By MillerSHO:
If it's a bench gun get the HBAR.

Anything less then that I prefer a govt profile barrel.



Agree.
Catman2
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Posted: 3/1/2010 1:29:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/1/2010 1:40:04 PM EST by Catman2]
Prolly won't make a difference off the bench but shooting offhand an Hbar will be more stable thus you won't miss as often. If you carry it long hours between shooting, i.e., patrols or hunting the Gov. profile will be lighter but with a sling my 16" Hbar's weight wasn't a problem not to mention when it came time to shoot, in my case hogs, it was deadly solid on target. In other words I'd rather carry more weight all day and be able to make the shot then carry something lighter and blow it.

Having said that my Gov. profile is pretty damned stable
Thefryzone
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Posted: 3/1/2010 1:34:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By NCHornet:
I am the minority here as I prefer the Hbar. The M4 will do fine but for most accuracy allow for proper cooling between rounds and you will be fine. The added weight of a Hbar just doesn't bother me. Good ;Luck.


+1
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ChromeLined
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Posted: 3/1/2010 1:52:26 PM EST
I compromised and went SOCOM weight..lighter than HBAR and heavier than regular M4 profile.15 to 20 rds per minute should not bother accuarcy or get the barrel hot enough to bother it.HBARs take heat better and will stay accuarte longer and hotter than a lighter barrel but it also takes longer too cool down.Just remeber we have semi auto single stage AR15s..most of us dont shoot full auto where accuarcy can really be effected when things heat up way way faster than semi only will.
Foxnews_FTW
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Posted: 3/1/2010 2:01:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By ChromeLined:
I compromised and went SOCOM weight..lighter than HBAR and heavier than regular M4 profile.15 to 20 rds per minute should not bother accuarcy or get the barrel hot enough to bother it.HBARs take heat better and will stay accuarte longer and hotter than a lighter barrel but it also takes longer too cool down.Just remeber we have semi auto single stage AR15s..most of us dont shoot full auto where accuarcy can really be effected when things heat up way way faster than semi only will.


IIRC unless I'm mistaken, doesn't slower heat up also help reliability? (Heat being one of the causes of part malfunctions?)

"Never underestimate the unwillingness of academics to change their views in the face of evidence"
ChromeLined
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Posted: 3/1/2010 2:18:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/1/2010 2:20:30 PM EST by ChromeLined]
Yea thats what I meant by takes the heat better as far as heats up slower I guess it depends on rate of fire.Ive gotten HBARs heated up real quick.I think though with barrel heat always being a fctor in any weapon the AR/M16 also gets hot inside the receiver,just as hot as the barrel so betewwen baking off lube and shitting where its eating I think all that with the barrel can contribute to heat related failures.I never shoot faster than I can keep my sights on target wich is about a round every 2 or 3 seconds.If I were in a survival situation dpepnding on conditions maybe I would or would not have to dump ammo out faster.

Ive nenevr been in situations where Ive had to use fire to move but in a situation like that where your laying down fire the HBAR will get real hot too but being thicker it will function longer and stay rigid better as oposed to a lighter barrel and take longer to cool wich may or may not be a factor depending on the situation.One things for sure if heavier barrels werent better for function the Army wouldnt have listed a heavier barrel as a want for interim M4 upgrades " SOCOM BARREL" along with a piston system..so cooler running upper and internals and a barrel that takes heat better.Isit relevant in semi-auto only operation well we dont really know unless we have some data from say contractors or others who have used semi onlys in prolonged firefights in afghanistan or Iraq and what type of barrel was used.As far as I know right now only SF M4A1s have the heavier med weight Socom barrel.
1saxman
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Posted: 3/1/2010 2:37:13 PM EST
You know, with all this talk of heating/cooling, stiffness and weight, I'm thinking that the 'mutt' carbine I put together in 1995 (or so, don't remember the exact year) actually was pretty smart. It was a Bushmaster lower with a M16A1 stock. The A2 upper was a 'K' (Kaiser Aluminum) but I don't know who machined and finished it. The BCG was Bushy and the barrel was an Olympic 16" full-heavy, fluted, 5.56 and not chrome-lined that I found at a gun show at one of those tables where they build your gun right on the spot. This carbine worked great and shot straight. The fluting on the barrel was very deep and it really didn't weigh that much. Most of the weight was under the handguards, and with the fixed stock w/cleaning kit in the rear it handled very well. I never fired it enough to heat up the barrel, but I think it would cool off rather quickly. The good news is, its still in the family. My son in GA has had it for several years. Even though he has a different AR and is thinking of a .30 caliber, he will never give up the 'mutt'! I put a 6-position stock on it at some point.

14point5
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Posted: 3/1/2010 2:40:20 PM EST
I think going with a free float hand guard will have a greater impact on accuracy than HBAR vs. Govt. profile.


Get govt or M4 profile and then add a free float hand guard, you'll be good to go...
I really like AR-15s and 1911s.
ChromeLined
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Posted: 3/1/2010 2:41:24 PM EST
Fluted barrels are awesome..I dont like the look of fluting but with the scalopped grooves you get just as much barrel stiffness and actually more surface area than it would have had even as an HBAR so it cools like a lightweight barrel.So like an HBAR fluted barrels give the same benefits with less weight and quicker cooling.
1saxman
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Posted: 3/1/2010 3:04:02 PM EST
Many don't like fluted barrels but seem to like the 'dimpled' ones. I like the flutes - there's no question they remove more weight and provide more surface area than dimpling. Dimpling to me is strictly a cosmetic effect. That mutt I made is the only AR I have shot that hit the center at 25 yds with the aperture on the center line of the index. That actually speaks not to my assembly but of the man who built the upper. Plus, like Olympic or not, the one thing they always did well was barrels, and this one is no exception.
Forest
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Posted: 3/1/2010 3:58:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By migkillertwo:
..Regarding the goal for this setup, its mostly going to be a range toy and a home defense gun (and maybe, just maybe, a zombie killer if SHTF)


For those goals I'm definately a M4 or 'Lightweight' (A1 profile) fan. Lighter weight rules, especially if you like to shoot off hand or get into carbine matches or classesl
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JoshAR
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Posted: 3/1/2010 4:08:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By migkillertwo:My question is this: will the thickness of the barrel make a noticeable difference in accuracy if I'm shooting within 100 yards?


No.

Josh

"Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." Don Nelson my friend gone from us, 06/06/04.
Anglingarchitect
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Posted: 3/1/2010 4:33:09 PM EST
You guys are such AR snobs, I haven't been able to pull the trigger on my first AR but I will soon!
You guys are having way to much fun! Seems like crack and I don't want that first rock! I'm afraid!
I hope the zombies don't come before do it!
Captains1911
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Posted: 3/1/2010 4:45:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/1/2010 4:46:38 PM EST by Captains1911]
Originally Posted By ChromeLined:
Fluted barrels are awesome..I dont like the look of fluting but with the scalopped grooves you get just as much barrel stiffness and actually more surface area than it would have had even as an HBAR so it cools like a lightweight barrel.So like an HBAR fluted barrels give the same benefits with less weight and quicker cooling.


Are you suggesting that a fluted HBAR has just as much rigidity as a non-fluted HBAR? If so I would have to disagree, anytime you remove material you are going to lose stiffness. The fluted one will cool faster though.
Combat_Diver
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Posted: 3/1/2010 8:23:32 PM EST
Would also depend on what you are used to. I'm used to carrying a M4A1 (since 95') and when I put a 16" HBAR on my personal carbine, balance is way different. Didn't like it and now my youngest son has it which he loves (I picked up a 14.5" M4 barrel). I also competed with the same M4A1 in Army matches out to 500-600 yds (Mk262) with irons and this is the same M4 that I used on numberous deployments and train ups (approx 20K+).

Carbines are a little tougher to shoot at long range but if you know what your doing, it'll reach out there.


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ChromeLined
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Posted: 3/1/2010 8:34:21 PM EST
I believe rigdity is the same because your only scaloping small trenches not turning down the entire profile to a thinner one so I think rigidity would be the same if not more no?the trenches or flutes are low points but the high points remain I would think those are enough to still provide the same stiffness but less weight in the process.
Frens
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Posted: 3/1/2010 8:43:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By NCHornet:
I am the minority here as I prefer the Hbar. The M4 will do fine but for most accuracy allow for proper cooling between rounds and you will be fine. The added weight of a Hbar just doesn't bother me. Good ;Luck.


+1
if you keep it KISS the added weight is not a problem.
all I have on mine is a KAC RAS and a small flashlight...I've used it during a dynamic shooting match and the extra weight helped me to deal with the recoil

Captains1911
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Posted: 3/2/2010 3:42:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By ChromeLined:
I believe rigdity is the same because your only scaloping small trenches not turning down the entire profile to a thinner one so I think rigidity would be the same if not more no?the trenches or flutes are low points but the high points remain I would think those are enough to still provide the same stiffness but less weight in the process.


Nope, by removing material you are decreasing the sections moment of inertia, or resistance to bending. It's a classic mechanics of materials problem. Whether or not the reduced stiffness has any ill affects is another matter.
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