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Posted: 3/3/2006 4:23:58 PM EST
What is the general concensus in regards to which is better and for what purposes? I know essentially nothing about carbon fiber barrels. Got any links that would help me out or any other info? Thanks.

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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:28:21 PM EST
I have a remington 700 with a carbon fiber bbl, in .223 It has a stainless liner, as do all composite bbls.

Not an AR, but the principles are the same.

It is lighter, and it never gets hot. POI does not shift at all, from first cold shot of the day, to the last. I think those are the only two major issues, but I happen to also think it looks awesome.
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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:30:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 4:31:49 PM EST by ballisticbill]
I don't know if I have ever seen an AR with a carbon fiber barrels if that tells you anything. Outside of the AR world their great, light and stiff with great heat dissipation.
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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:38:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By ballisticbill:
I don't know if I have ever seen an AR with a carbon fiber barrels if that tells you anything. Outside of the AR world their great, light and stiff with great heat dissipation.



But it's a kind of a new thing though right?

So, it seems like they are accurate and stay accurate longer??

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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:40:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 4:41:24 PM EST by Krackels]
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=262783

twl sells carbon fiber barrels for the AR15. I think they retail around $300 (way too low) $600 for just the barrel, but the difference in weight and heat cooling properties are significant.
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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:44:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 4:46:11 PM EST by twl]
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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:48:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 4:49:41 PM EST by ColSanders]
They sound like a really cool concept (very steep price though). I am intrigued.

So, what kind of life expectancy would you be able to expect from a good CF barrel?

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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:59:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 5:04:20 PM EST by twl]
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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:03:51 PM EST
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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:14:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By twl:
The barrel in the photo above has several features that contribute to its accuracy and barrel life.
In addition to the two forms of carbon fiber used, one type for winding and another type for thermal conductivity, that barrel has a Rock 5R SS match-grade barrel blank used for the inner barrel which is internally lined with a special Electroless Nickel/Silicon Carbide composite. Barrels using these types of construction have been found to last up to 85000 rounds in military test procedures. However, ABS has very conservative claims of over 20000 rounds of lifetime, even though many more rounds are likely to be expected from it.
For an ABS carbon fiber barrel that does not have the ElNi/SiC barrel lining material, the tested wear rate is 63% less than a chrome-lined military steel barrel, so it should last about twice as long as a chrome-lined barrel under similar shooting circumstances.

Many people feel that 1/4MOA is about the smallest size group that the AR15 platform is capable of, and this barrel actually does a bit better than that(not all shoot this well). It also is an HBAR contour that weighs about the same as a "pencil barrel", and has a computer-designed harmonic control pattern in the carbon windings that are CNC-wound onto the pre-profiled match grade barrel blank, and features pitch-based carbon microtubes mixed into the bonding matrix which gives an independent test-lab result of 372% better cooling than a comparable steel barrel, and has the longest lasting interior lining material that is known at this time.



That really is incredible.

So, what is it that makes the barrels so expensive to make? Is it the ElNi/SiC barrel lining?

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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:33:44 PM EST
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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:12:17 PM EST
That does seem impressive. Any anacdotal reports of them in FA use?

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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:14:23 PM EST
I'm really interested in this concept, but I'm not ready to buy one just yet. However I think you'll be hearing from me, later this year or early next.

Will you guys be doing 1-7" twists at some point?

What about mid-lengths?

Just wondering .

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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:26:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By MurdockTheCrazy:
I'm really interested in this concept, but I'm not ready to buy one just yet. However I think you'll be hearing from me, later this year or early next.

Will you guys be doing 1-7" twists at some point?

What about mid-lengths?

Just wondering .



That one is a midlength, and they can do it in any twist you want. Twl, how soft is the barrel liner (the carbon fiber part), if I were to, say, hit it on a car door as I was exiting my vehicle or something like that, would I dick it up? That would sure suck.

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Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:08:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By PanzerMK7:

Originally Posted By MurdockTheCrazy:
I'm really interested in this concept, but I'm not ready to buy one just yet. However I think you'll be hearing from me, later this year or early next.

Will you guys be doing 1-7" twists at some point?

What about mid-lengths?

Just wondering .



That one is a midlength, and they can do it in any twist you want. Twl, how soft is the barrel liner (the carbon fiber part), if I were to, say, hit it on a car door as I was exiting my vehicle or something like that, would I dick it up? That would sure suck.



carbon fiber is pretty damn strong. I think it'd be fine.

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Link Posted: 3/4/2006 3:18:18 AM EST
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Link Posted: 3/4/2006 3:23:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 3:25:10 AM EST by twl]
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Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:41:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By twl:
The barrel in the photo above has several features that contribute to its accuracy and barrel life.
In addition to the two forms of carbon fiber used, one type for winding and another type for thermal conductivity, that barrel has a Rock 5R SS match-grade barrel blank used for the inner barrel which is internally lined with a special Electroless Nickel/Silicon Carbide composite. Barrels using these types of construction have been found to last up to 85000 rounds in military test procedures. However, ABS has very conservative claims of over 20000 rounds of lifetime, even though many more rounds are likely to be expected from it.
For an ABS carbon fiber barrel that does not have the ElNi/SiC barrel lining material, the tested wear rate is 63% less than a chrome-lined military steel barrel, so it should last about twice as long as a chrome-lined barrel under similar shooting circumstances.

Many people feel that 1/4MOA is about the smallest size group that the AR15 platform is capable of, and this barrel actually does a bit better than that(not all shoot this well). It also is an HBAR contour that weighs about the same as a "pencil barrel", and has a computer-designed harmonic control pattern in the carbon windings that are CNC-wound onto the pre-profiled match grade barrel blank, and features pitch-based carbon microtubes mixed into the bonding matrix which gives an independent test-lab result of 372% better cooling than a comparable steel barrel, and has the longest lasting interior lining material that is known at this time.



You also offer PacNor blanks though, right?
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Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:58:56 AM EST
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Link Posted: 3/4/2006 6:07:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 6:10:50 AM EST by sharkbait]
Are your ar15 barrels available now ? ( as pictured above )

Do you have a web page ?

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Link Posted: 3/4/2006 6:35:25 AM EST
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Link Posted: 3/4/2006 11:00:33 AM EST
Is there anything that can be done to make the SS more rust-resistant, or could this process be done to 4140,4150 or a CMV steel barrel? I'm more worried about damaging my barrel due to rust than shooting it out. Does the liner inside the barrel keep all moisture from getting underneath it to the SS or are their some kind of micro-cracks where moisture can get in over time? If nothing can be done about the exposed SS on the outside, can something be done to darken it without hurting it's rust resistance?
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Link Posted: 3/4/2006 11:43:08 AM EST
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Link Posted: 3/4/2006 12:04:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By twl:

Originally Posted By wyv3rn:
Is there anything that can be done to make the SS more rust-resistant, or could this process be done to 4140,4150 or a CMV steel barrel? I'm more worried about damaging my barrel due to rust than shooting it out. Does the liner inside the barrel keep all moisture from getting underneath it to the SS or are their some kind of micro-cracks where moisture can get in over time? If nothing can be done about the exposed SS on the outside, can something be done to darken it without hurting it's rust resistance?



4140, 4150, or CMV would be alot more prone to corrosion than any stainless steel would ever be.

However, yes the stainless steel can be covered with CeraKote or Dura-kote or something like that.

I live in East Tennessee, and we have a very humid climate here. I live in a log home and have no air conditioning. I've had my barrel for over a year now, and I've never done anything at all to protect it. There's not a spot anywhere on the barrel, inside or out, from any rust or corrosion occurring. It's just like new.

Rock barrels are 416 stainless, and they are very resistant to rust or corrosion from the elements.
I wouldn't worry much about that.
416 is even suitable for use in salt water marine environments.



I was just thinking the exposed portions of 4140,4150 or CMV could be parkerized. 416 is rated for use in salt water marine environments? I did not know that. Any idea what it would take to make it rust? My problem is I'll shoot in the rain and cold nights (doesn't keep me away) and then have no choice but to bring the gun into a warm environment where it sweats, etc. I don't have the option of leaving it out. I don't put it back in the case 'cause that would be even worse. The exposed steel areas on my 4150 steel barrel start to rust if I don't wipe it down with oil but that isn't always an option either. Usually I can only wipe down the excess water until I get home.
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Link Posted: 3/4/2006 1:08:35 PM EST
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Link Posted: 3/4/2006 1:13:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By MurdockTheCrazy:
I'm really interested in this concept, but I'm not ready to buy one just yet. However I think you'll be hearing from me, later this year or early next.

Will you guys be doing 1-7" twists at some point?

What about mid-lengths?

Just wondering .



I have had an ABS barrel done with a 1/7 twists PacNor polygonal blank as the base. You can try it at one of the Texas shoots as soon as I get it. I have been waiting for my barrel now for about 7 months so hopefully I will get it soon.

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Link Posted: 3/4/2006 1:21:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By twl:

Originally Posted By sharkbait:
Are your ar15 barrels available now ? ( as pictured above )

Do you have a web page ?



Yes, they are available to be ordered.
We rarely have any barrels stocked, since custom barrels are the main line.
Mike is back at work and feeling better, and barrels are rolling off the line as we speak.





That is GOOD NEWS indeed!

I'm happy to have gotten in for a couple of these on the group buy!
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Link Posted: 3/20/2006 8:44:23 AM EST
Just did some reading on 416 stainless. It is NOT rated for marine environments. Infact, it is specifically stated it is not suitable for marine environments. 410 stainless is much more corrosion resistant, but less machineable.
You should never try to solve your problems with handguns. Large caliber automatics work much better.
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Link Posted: 3/20/2006 9:14:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 9:24:25 AM EST by twl]
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Link Posted: 3/20/2006 10:39:39 AM EST
I am pretty convinced they are highly rust resistant. I am not sure where they stand in rust resistance compared to parkerized 4150 or CMV, but I am sure they are close (equal, slight better, slightly worse) or rust resistant "enough". Of course you don't have to worry about the bore rusting at all with your special coating, which is the most important part. I'm just a stickler for facts and felt the need to correct the errors in our previous statements (I am just as guilty) that 416 stainless is "suitable" or "rated" for prolonged use in marine environments.

I'd like to hear more stories and anecdotes from people who have put these barrels through some sh** and what it finally took them to kill it, if they did. I'll admit am not an SS kind of guy and know very little about how it does in the real world other than it takes a heavier profile (and thus heavier barrel) to keep the same stiffness as 4150/CMV when heated. These barrels fix that, and honestly, they are the only SS barrels I have ever had any interest in. I've been interested since day 1, I'm just not ready to adopt this $600 barrel yet. I do know that I think about/consider them all the time, am very interested and that $600 is probably very cheap for what you are getting here.
You should never try to solve your problems with handguns. Large caliber automatics work much better.
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