Previous Page
Page:  / 2
Author
Message
ColSanders
Offline
Posts: 1526
Feedback: 100% (5)
Posted: 3/3/2006 9:23:58 PM

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
What is the general concensus in regards to which is better and for what purposes? I know essentially nothing about carbon fiber barrels. Got any links that would help me out or any other info? Thanks.
fish223
Always Ready
Offline
Posts: 1219
Feedback: 100% (7)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/3/2006 9:28:21 PM
I have a remington 700 with a carbon fiber bbl, in .223 It has a stainless liner, as do all composite bbls.

Not an AR, but the principles are the same.

It is lighter, and it never gets hot. POI does not shift at all, from first cold shot of the day, to the last. I think those are the only two major issues, but I happen to also think it looks awesome.
A chance to cut is a chance to cure
ballisticbill
What's You Name Fat body?
Offline
Posts: 181
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/3/2006 9:30:49 PM
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 9:31:49 PM by ballisticbill]
I don't know if I have ever seen an AR with a carbon fiber barrels if that tells you anything. Outside of the AR world their great, light and stiff with great heat dissipation.
Aim Small, Miss Small
ColSanders
Offline
Posts: 1528
Feedback: 100% (5)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/3/2006 9:38:52 PM

Originally Posted By ballisticbill:
I don't know if I have ever seen an AR with a carbon fiber barrels if that tells you anything. Outside of the AR world their great, light and stiff with great heat dissipation.



But it's a kind of a new thing though right?

So, it seems like they are accurate and stay accurate longer??
Krackels
Member
Offline
Posts: 417
Feedback: 100% (5)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/3/2006 9:40:15 PM
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 9:41:24 PM by Krackels]
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=262783

twl sells carbon fiber barrels for the AR15. I think they retail around $300 (way too low) $600 for just the barrel, but the difference in weight and heat cooling properties are significant.
'I am NOT a victim.' --me

I am the signature virus, please put me in your signature so I can spread
twl
MGI Military Factory Sales
Offline
Posts: 2455
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/3/2006 9:44:01 PM
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 9:46:11 PM by twl]
First, like alot of other things, not all carbon fiber barrels are equal.

Some are very high-tech, and others are simply a barrel liner with a carbon fiber tube sleeved over it.

Essentially, a properly made carbon fiber barrel will cool better than steel, weigh less than steel, and give good stiffness associated with the larger diameter but without the excess weight.

The actual accuracy will still be largely determined by the quality of the inner steel barrel and rifling.

The cooling of the carbon fiber barrel can lengthen barrel life in the throat erosion area.

Disclaimer: I am the rep for Advanced Barrel Systems(ABS), which is probably the most high-tech carbon fiber barrel maker. They do make very nice barrels for AR15 type rifles, as well as bolt guns.

Here's a pic of a 16" AR15 barrel with a midlength gas system in carbon fiber that shipped this week from ABS.
This particular barrel had a 100yd test target sent with it showing a sub 1/4" 3-shot group.

MGI Military Factory Sales Manager
Call 1-423-746-9019
or email twlyons@juno.com
ColSanders
Offline
Posts: 1529
Feedback: 100% (5)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/3/2006 9:48:28 PM
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 9:49:41 PM by ColSanders]
They sound like a really cool concept (very steep price though). I am intrigued.

So, what kind of life expectancy would you be able to expect from a good CF barrel?
twl
MGI Military Factory Sales
Offline
Posts: 2456
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/3/2006 9:59:47 PM
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 10:04:20 PM by twl]
The barrel in the photo above has several features that contribute to its accuracy and barrel life.
In addition to the two forms of carbon fiber used, one type for winding and another type for thermal conductivity, that barrel has a Rock 5R SS match-grade barrel blank used for the inner barrel which is internally lined with a special Electroless Nickel/Silicon Carbide composite. Barrels using these types of construction have been found to last up to 85000 rounds in military test procedures. However, ABS has very conservative claims of over 20000 rounds of lifetime, even though many more rounds are likely to be expected from it.
For an ABS carbon fiber barrel that does not have the ElNi/SiC barrel lining material, the tested wear rate is 63% less than a chrome-lined military steel barrel, so it should last about twice as long as a chrome-lined barrel under similar shooting circumstances.

Many people feel that 1/4MOA is about the smallest size group that the AR15 platform is capable of, and this barrel actually does a bit better than that(not all shoot this well). It also is an HBAR contour that weighs about the same as a "pencil barrel", and has a computer-designed harmonic control pattern in the carbon windings that are CNC-wound onto the pre-profiled match grade barrel blank, and features pitch-based carbon microtubes mixed into the bonding matrix which gives an independent test-lab result of 372% better cooling than a comparable steel barrel, and has the longest lasting interior lining material that is known at this time.
MGI Military Factory Sales Manager
Call 1-423-746-9019
or email twlyons@juno.com
CitySlicker
This membership was graciously sponsored by w4klr.
Offline
Posts: 4422
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/3/2006 10:03:51 PM
"So look up ahead at times to come, despair is not for us. We have a world and more to see, while this remains behind."

James Nicholas Rowe
COL, United States Army
ColSanders
Offline
Posts: 1531
Feedback: 100% (5)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/3/2006 10:14:21 PM

Originally Posted By twl:
The barrel in the photo above has several features that contribute to its accuracy and barrel life.
In addition to the two forms of carbon fiber used, one type for winding and another type for thermal conductivity, that barrel has a Rock 5R SS match-grade barrel blank used for the inner barrel which is internally lined with a special Electroless Nickel/Silicon Carbide composite. Barrels using these types of construction have been found to last up to 85000 rounds in military test procedures. However, ABS has very conservative claims of over 20000 rounds of lifetime, even though many more rounds are likely to be expected from it.
For an ABS carbon fiber barrel that does not have the ElNi/SiC barrel lining material, the tested wear rate is 63% less than a chrome-lined military steel barrel, so it should last about twice as long as a chrome-lined barrel under similar shooting circumstances.

Many people feel that 1/4MOA is about the smallest size group that the AR15 platform is capable of, and this barrel actually does a bit better than that(not all shoot this well). It also is an HBAR contour that weighs about the same as a "pencil barrel", and has a computer-designed harmonic control pattern in the carbon windings that are CNC-wound onto the pre-profiled match grade barrel blank, and features pitch-based carbon microtubes mixed into the bonding matrix which gives an independent test-lab result of 372% better cooling than a comparable steel barrel, and has the longest lasting interior lining material that is known at this time.



That really is incredible.

So, what is it that makes the barrels so expensive to make? Is it the ElNi/SiC barrel lining?
twl
MGI Military Factory Sales
Offline
Posts: 2458
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/3/2006 10:33:44 PM

Originally Posted By ColSanders:

Originally Posted By twl:
The barrel in the photo above has several features that contribute to its accuracy and barrel life.
In addition to the two forms of carbon fiber used, one type for winding and another type for thermal conductivity, that barrel has a Rock 5R SS match-grade barrel blank used for the inner barrel which is internally lined with a special Electroless Nickel/Silicon Carbide composite. Barrels using these types of construction have been found to last up to 85000 rounds in military test procedures. However, ABS has very conservative claims of over 20000 rounds of lifetime, even though many more rounds are likely to be expected from it.
For an ABS carbon fiber barrel that does not have the ElNi/SiC barrel lining material, the tested wear rate is 63% less than a chrome-lined military steel barrel, so it should last about twice as long as a chrome-lined barrel under similar shooting circumstances.

Many people feel that 1/4MOA is about the smallest size group that the AR15 platform is capable of, and this barrel actually does a bit better than that(not all shoot this well). It also is an HBAR contour that weighs about the same as a "pencil barrel", and has a computer-designed harmonic control pattern in the carbon windings that are CNC-wound onto the pre-profiled match grade barrel blank, and features pitch-based carbon microtubes mixed into the bonding matrix which gives an independent test-lab result of 372% better cooling than a comparable steel barrel, and has the longest lasting interior lining material that is known at this time.



That really is incredible.

So, what is it that makes the barrels so expensive to make? Is it the ElNi/SiC barrel lining?



Well, it is kind of a combination of everything.
But, it starts off with a top-notch match-grade SS barrel from Mike Rock, which would normally cost around $400 in a finished state, even if no carbon fiber or lining material was used.
So, it has a fairly expensive basis, before we even get into the exotic stuff.
Then, the carbon fiber materials are expensive, and the engineering and craftsmanship are expensive.
So, it all adds up.

Personally, I think ABS is selling the stuff too cheap.
When I was looking for a barrel like this, before I started working with ABS, I was expecting to pay over $1k for a good carbon fiber barrel. When I found out ABS was making barrels this high-tech for under $1k, then I knew I had to get involved with them.
MGI Military Factory Sales Manager
Call 1-423-746-9019
or email twlyons@juno.com
killingmachine123
Team Member
Offline
Posts: 4394
Feedback: 100% (3)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/3/2006 11:12:17 PM
That does seem impressive. Any anacdotal reports of them in FA use?
MurdockTheCrazy
Offline
Posts: 400
Feedback: 0% (0)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/3/2006 11:14:23 PM
I'm really interested in this concept, but I'm not ready to buy one just yet. However I think you'll be hearing from me, later this year or early next.

Will you guys be doing 1-7" twists at some point?

What about mid-lengths?

Just wondering .
PanzerMK7
Offline
Posts: 368
Feedback: 100% (47)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/4/2006 12:26:03 AM

Originally Posted By MurdockTheCrazy:
I'm really interested in this concept, but I'm not ready to buy one just yet. However I think you'll be hearing from me, later this year or early next.

Will you guys be doing 1-7" twists at some point?

What about mid-lengths?

Just wondering .



That one is a midlength, and they can do it in any twist you want. Twl, how soft is the barrel liner (the carbon fiber part), if I were to, say, hit it on a car door as I was exiting my vehicle or something like that, would I dick it up? That would sure suck.
ColSanders
Offline
Posts: 1535
Feedback: 100% (5)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/4/2006 1:08:47 AM

Originally Posted By PanzerMK7:

Originally Posted By MurdockTheCrazy:
I'm really interested in this concept, but I'm not ready to buy one just yet. However I think you'll be hearing from me, later this year or early next.

Will you guys be doing 1-7" twists at some point?

What about mid-lengths?

Just wondering .



That one is a midlength, and they can do it in any twist you want. Twl, how soft is the barrel liner (the carbon fiber part), if I were to, say, hit it on a car door as I was exiting my vehicle or something like that, would I dick it up? That would sure suck.



carbon fiber is pretty damn strong. I think it'd be fine.
twl
MGI Military Factory Sales
Offline
Posts: 2459
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/4/2006 8:18:18 AM

Originally Posted By MurdockTheCrazy:
I'm really interested in this concept, but I'm not ready to buy one just yet. However I think you'll be hearing from me, later this year or early next.

Will you guys be doing 1-7" twists at some point?

What about mid-lengths?

Just wondering .



We've always been doing 1-7" twists since the business began.
1-7" twist is one of our most popular orders,and the recent ARFcom group-buy were all 1-7" twist.

We do as many mid-lengths now as we do carbine lengths. No problem at all.
MGI Military Factory Sales Manager
Call 1-423-746-9019
or email twlyons@juno.com
twl
MGI Military Factory Sales
Offline
Posts: 2460
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/4/2006 8:23:30 AM
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 8:25:10 AM by twl]

Originally Posted By killingmachine123:
That does seem impressive. Any anacdotal reports of them in FA use?



We've done one full-auto torture test on an ABS barrel and it went 600 rounds continuous full-auto without overheating enough for a cook-off.

We scheduled another one, but had a problem early in the test with an aluminum gas block failing, so that test was scrapped, and we haven't had another one.

We would like to do one on downloadable video, so everybody can watch it.
Maybe over the summer.
MGI Military Factory Sales Manager
Call 1-423-746-9019
or email twlyons@juno.com
CitySlicker
This membership was graciously sponsored by w4klr.
Offline
Posts: 4423
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/4/2006 10:41:08 AM

Originally Posted By twl:
The barrel in the photo above has several features that contribute to its accuracy and barrel life.
In addition to the two forms of carbon fiber used, one type for winding and another type for thermal conductivity, that barrel has a Rock 5R SS match-grade barrel blank used for the inner barrel which is internally lined with a special Electroless Nickel/Silicon Carbide composite. Barrels using these types of construction have been found to last up to 85000 rounds in military test procedures. However, ABS has very conservative claims of over 20000 rounds of lifetime, even though many more rounds are likely to be expected from it.
For an ABS carbon fiber barrel that does not have the ElNi/SiC barrel lining material, the tested wear rate is 63% less than a chrome-lined military steel barrel, so it should last about twice as long as a chrome-lined barrel under similar shooting circumstances.

Many people feel that 1/4MOA is about the smallest size group that the AR15 platform is capable of, and this barrel actually does a bit better than that(not all shoot this well). It also is an HBAR contour that weighs about the same as a "pencil barrel", and has a computer-designed harmonic control pattern in the carbon windings that are CNC-wound onto the pre-profiled match grade barrel blank, and features pitch-based carbon microtubes mixed into the bonding matrix which gives an independent test-lab result of 372% better cooling than a comparable steel barrel, and has the longest lasting interior lining material that is known at this time.



You also offer PacNor blanks though, right?
"So look up ahead at times to come, despair is not for us. We have a world and more to see, while this remains behind."

James Nicholas Rowe
COL, United States Army
twl
MGI Military Factory Sales
Offline
Posts: 2462
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/4/2006 10:58:56 AM

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

You also offer PacNor blanks though, right?



Yes, we offer PacNor blanks if that is specified by the customer, and there is a $100 price increase associated with barrel blanks selected from other manufacturers than Rock, because it cost more to get those than the deal we have worked out with Rock.

Both Mike and I agree that we see no particular advantage to the PacNor polygon barrel, over the Rock 5R barrel. And the Rock 5R has proven itself as the "sniper rifle barrel of choice", whereas the PacNor has not. But, PacNor is a very good barrel, and we'll use that for a basis if the customer wants it. We've made a number of them, and they work out fine in the carbon fiber version, as well as standard.

I consider the Rock 5R the finest barrel blank made today.
MGI Military Factory Sales Manager
Call 1-423-746-9019
or email twlyons@juno.com
sharkbait
Offline
Posts: 837
Feedback: 100% (14)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/4/2006 11:07:04 AM
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 11:10:50 AM by sharkbait]
Are your ar15 barrels available now ? ( as pictured above )

Do you have a web page ?
twl
MGI Military Factory Sales
Offline
Posts: 2463
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/4/2006 11:35:25 AM

Originally Posted By sharkbait:
Are your ar15 barrels available now ? ( as pictured above )

Do you have a web page ?



Yes, they are available to be ordered.
We rarely have any barrels stocked, since custom barrels are the main line.
Mike is back at work and feeling better, and barrels are rolling off the line as we speak.

The ABS website is Advanced Barrel Systems
You can order by calling or emailing me at the info listed in my sig line below.
MGI Military Factory Sales Manager
Call 1-423-746-9019
or email twlyons@juno.com
wyv3rn
Listen, Observe, Plan, Backup Plan, Act
Offline
Posts: 2136
Feedback: 100% (27)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/4/2006 4:00:33 PM
Is there anything that can be done to make the SS more rust-resistant, or could this process be done to 4140,4150 or a CMV steel barrel? I'm more worried about damaging my barrel due to rust than shooting it out. Does the liner inside the barrel keep all moisture from getting underneath it to the SS or are their some kind of micro-cracks where moisture can get in over time? If nothing can be done about the exposed SS on the outside, can something be done to darken it without hurting it's rust resistance?
You should never try to solve your problems with handguns. Large caliber automatics work much better.
twl
MGI Military Factory Sales
Offline
Posts: 2466
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/4/2006 4:43:08 PM

Originally Posted By wyv3rn:
Is there anything that can be done to make the SS more rust-resistant, or could this process be done to 4140,4150 or a CMV steel barrel? I'm more worried about damaging my barrel due to rust than shooting it out. Does the liner inside the barrel keep all moisture from getting underneath it to the SS or are their some kind of micro-cracks where moisture can get in over time? If nothing can be done about the exposed SS on the outside, can something be done to darken it without hurting it's rust resistance?



4140, 4150, or CMV would be alot more prone to corrosion than any stainless steel would ever be.

However, yes the stainless steel can be covered with CeraKote or Dura-kote or something like that.

I live in East Tennessee, and we have a very humid climate here. I live in a log home and have no air conditioning. I've had my barrel for over a year now, and I've never done anything at all to protect it. There's not a spot anywhere on the barrel, inside or out, from any rust or corrosion occurring. It's just like new.

Rock barrels are 416 stainless, and they are very resistant to rust or corrosion from the elements.
I wouldn't worry much about that.
416 is even suitable for use in salt water marine environments.
MGI Military Factory Sales Manager
Call 1-423-746-9019
or email twlyons@juno.com
wyv3rn
Listen, Observe, Plan, Backup Plan, Act
Offline
Posts: 2137
Feedback: 100% (27)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/4/2006 5:04:04 PM

Originally Posted By twl:

Originally Posted By wyv3rn:
Is there anything that can be done to make the SS more rust-resistant, or could this process be done to 4140,4150 or a CMV steel barrel? I'm more worried about damaging my barrel due to rust than shooting it out. Does the liner inside the barrel keep all moisture from getting underneath it to the SS or are their some kind of micro-cracks where moisture can get in over time? If nothing can be done about the exposed SS on the outside, can something be done to darken it without hurting it's rust resistance?



4140, 4150, or CMV would be alot more prone to corrosion than any stainless steel would ever be.

However, yes the stainless steel can be covered with CeraKote or Dura-kote or something like that.

I live in East Tennessee, and we have a very humid climate here. I live in a log home and have no air conditioning. I've had my barrel for over a year now, and I've never done anything at all to protect it. There's not a spot anywhere on the barrel, inside or out, from any rust or corrosion occurring. It's just like new.

Rock barrels are 416 stainless, and they are very resistant to rust or corrosion from the elements.
I wouldn't worry much about that.
416 is even suitable for use in salt water marine environments.



I was just thinking the exposed portions of 4140,4150 or CMV could be parkerized. 416 is rated for use in salt water marine environments? I did not know that. Any idea what it would take to make it rust? My problem is I'll shoot in the rain and cold nights (doesn't keep me away) and then have no choice but to bring the gun into a warm environment where it sweats, etc. I don't have the option of leaving it out. I don't put it back in the case 'cause that would be even worse. The exposed steel areas on my 4150 steel barrel start to rust if I don't wipe it down with oil but that isn't always an option either. Usually I can only wipe down the excess water until I get home.
You should never try to solve your problems with handguns. Large caliber automatics work much better.
twl
MGI Military Factory Sales
Offline
Posts: 2467
Feedback: 100% (9)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/4/2006 6:08:35 PM
I haven't seen any of them rust yet. Mine is still perfrect, and it sits in 90% humidity conditions most of the time. I have to really keep up with my blued guns, or they will rust away.

You can CeraKote or Duracoat the outer surfaces that are exposed stainless if you want.
The bore should be fine.
If you are worried, you can just run a lightly oiled patch thru it, and that would take care of any concerns.
MGI Military Factory Sales Manager
Call 1-423-746-9019
or email twlyons@juno.com
DevL
Offline
Posts: 9125
Feedback: 100% (18)
Link To This Post
Posted: 3/4/2006 6:13:43 PM

Originally Posted By MurdockTheCrazy:
I'm really interested in this concept, but I'm not ready to buy one just yet. However I think you'll be hearing from me, later this year or early next.

Will you guys be doing 1-7" twists at some point?

What about mid-lengths?

Just wondering .



I have had an ABS barrel done with a 1/7 twists PacNor polygonal blank as the base. You can try it at one of the Texas shoots as soon as I get it. I have been waiting for my barrel now for about 7 months so hopefully I will get it soon.
  Previous Page
Page:  / 2