For almost any given intermediary sized case the 6.5mm bullet  is going to be a better choice than .270, which is why it completely baffles me to this day why the folks who designed the 6.8 SPC (and the rest of the SPC cartridges) settled on the 6.8 rather than the 6.5 mm version .  Just think, if nothing else, we'd have saved this whole thread from happening.

Now the real question in my mind is this:
given an equal length barrel (16", 18" 20"), how much of a velocity hit will the 6.5 G take compared to the 6.5 Sweed, using a 120 grn projectile.  

After all we have a century of data on the Sweed, and know it to be an excelent intermediary cartridge, with outstanding terminal balistics for it's diameter.  If I can get reasonably close to 6.5x55 performance then It's an almost perfect round for shooting paper, people, or game.  If it isn't reasonably close, then we have to consider if it is worth going down a size to .25 caliber

No rifle for the 7.62x25mm?  We don't need no stink'N rifle....we have papa Shpagin's PPSh-41 and a bunch of 71 round drums........wonder if Lapua makes a Scenar for this bad boy.....think about it.........high BC at 900 rpm.......hell perhaps we could neck it down to........hmmmm.....I better not go there......

Quoted: For almost any given intermediary sized case the 6.5mm bullet  is going to be a better choice than .270, which is why it completely baffles me to this day why the folks who designed the 6.8 SPC (and the rest of the SPC cartridges) settled on the 6.8 rather than the 6.5 mm version .  Just think, if nothing else, we'd have saved this whole thread from happening. Now the real question in my mind is this: given an equal length barrel (16", 18" 20"), how much of a velocity hit will the 6.5 G take compared to the 6.5 Sweed, using a 120 grn projectile.   After all we have a century of data on the Sweed, and know it to be an excelent intermediary cartridge, with outstanding terminal balistics for it's diameter.  If I can get reasonably close to 6.5x55 performance then It's an almost perfect round for shooting paper, people, or game.  If it isn't reasonably close, then we have to consider if it is worth going down a size to .25 caliber

As already pointed out, the Swede has about a 15-20 grain powder capacity advantage over the Grendel and it operates at comparable pressure.  So the answers are "a bunch" and "it can't".  I'm guessing the Swede has around a 300 fps advantage, maybe more.  

Again, not saying the Grendel is without merit, but for hunting I'd be aware of its limitations and not try to stretch things too far, say not much past 250-300 yds. Which is still a pretty respectable distance.

For those that don't realize this, it's a well known fact that websites like this are routinely monitored by various foreign agencies for intelligence gathering.  The Chinese are particularly good at it.  But hell, we do it to them too, and it's interesting getting on a PLA website and picking their brains on what Ho thinks of his QBU88 sniper rifle.  The Muslims monitor these sights too...just be aware of this....

I bet there are a couple PLA intelligence officers sitting around after work laughing their asses off at those crazy Americans and their 6.5 VS 6.8.........and how Bill Alexander finally popped a blood vessel tonight....

man.........feel the love......


and you PLA guys.......say hi to Ho for me.......he was real helpful on how the QBU88's trigger sucked and how your QC on the optics rail is substandard so some scopes are loose and others too tight to mount.......

Quoted: For almost any given intermediary sized case the 6.5mm bullet  is going to be a better choice than .270, which is why it completely baffles me to this day why the folks who designed the 6.8 SPC (and the rest of the SPC cartridges) settled on the 6.8 rather than the 6.5 mm version .  Just think, if nothing else, we'd have saved this whole thread from happening.

It's simple. .270 does a lot better than .264 in flesh. 6.8 isn't designed for a thousand yard match, its designed to kill people.

You can neck down the 7.62x22...it becomes a 22 Reed Express! Probably better than the FN57

Yeah, necking the 7.62x25mm down to .224 caliber would smoke the 5.7x28.......

but the question I have is......would it be better to kneck it down to 6.8 or 6.5?  Now then you'd really have something........

I'd call it the 6.?x25mm Uber Tactical Express

Quoted: Quoted: You can try to reason with me by using the truth, a mixture of  truth and lies, or just complete lies, but it will do you no good. I have closed my mind to all of this and have chosen the absolute best cartridge for all ranges. I would like to tell you about it but would rather keep it to myself so only I will have one and none of you can pick it apart. Joe 6mm XC?

SHUSH!

What people fail to recognize is there is much more to the chamber pressure issue than just chamber pressure.

The real issue is bolt thrust or load on the bolt and locking lugs. POUNDS PER SQ INCH

By the time I finish here certain people are going to wish I actually was Saddam Hussain.

This does not answer any of the questions I posed it simply tries to deflect the issue, which, so far, I view only as ground work for some techno babble answers that may appear latter with the hopes of convincing the readers of this thread that there is a shred of truth behind a third rate marketing campaign

And seeing as you see fit to climb in the way maybe we should illuminate the readers on some simple engineering facts that anyone who has basic engineering knowledge should know


Force = Pressure x Area

That wasn't to difficult

I will also now point out that a single designated caliber does not have a variable case head size so in effect the value for the "area" becomes a constant. Thus the force imposed on the bolt is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to the chamber pressure. There is nothing complicated or magic or mystical about this calculation, and just for the record bolt thrust is a force measurement that is simply expressed in pounds.

It is for this very reason that the MAOP for the Grendel is held to a maximum of 50,000 psi with a minus/minus tolerance on the loading parameters.

Now lets see the answers to my questions, and be careful you might want to consider what constitutes wilful disruption of trade.

Bill Alexander

Again would the general readers please accept my appologies for this rather unsavory event.

For the person who asked about direct measurement of the head thrust it can be performed but it is a very devil of a job and is usually only performed for a new cartridge where it is impossible to gain the initial calibration offsets for a pressure rig by any other means. The rig required, uses an S type load cell which is placed in line with the base of the cartridge to give a direct value of thrust. As the S cell is capable of measuring static and dynamic loads it can be easily calibrated but there are some pitfalls. The cell itself has a certain mass and this will have an effect on the measurement given the speed of the event and the cartridge case itself will to some extent grip the chamber walls thus reducing the reading seen. Cartridges are usually lubricated to try and negate this effect but the type and amount of lube must be controlled or deposits in the chamber neck and throat will also alter the result somewhat.

Stupid question- what does angle of the case have to do with reliability?

I am sure that was a red-herring, but I'm curious.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You can try to reason with me by using the truth, a mixture of  truth and lies, or just complete lies, but it will do you no good. I have closed my mind to all of this and have chosen the absolute best cartridge for all ranges. I would like to tell you about it but would rather keep it to myself so only I will have one and none of you can pick it apart. Joe 6mm XC? SHUSH!

+1 on the Shush

Quoted: Stupid question- what does angle of the case have to do with reliability? I am sure that was a red-herring, but I'm curious.

The taper aids extraction (and insertion) by giving more and more clearance between the case and the chamber as the case is extracted.  Basically you have to deal with less friction if the case is tapered and it is more tolerant of a dirty chamber.

I'm sure that was an inadequate description of what's going on, but hopefully you get the idea.

Quoted: Griz: Ok on the 458, it's a big round as compared to many.

WSAR, apparently I suck at making a funny.  Disregard my comment about the 458.

I for one would like to see Leitner Wise respond to Bill Alexander.  I've been watching this debate for a couple of years now and have closely followed the way Leitner Wise goes about disseminating information and perhaps misinformation.  It is a unique approach to say the least, but now Leitner Wise has the opportunity to answer some relatively simple questions posed to them.  

Quoted: Quoted: You can buy 3 boxes of plinker 6.5 for the cost of 2 boxes of plinker 6.8 this is true.  However 6.5 is a long range round.  When was the last time you heard of anyone doing target shooting with Wolf? Wolf is match grade. Some of the best ammo out there, probably superior to Black Hills even.....

OMG!!!

Quoted: Quoted: You can buy 3 boxes of plinker 6.5 for the cost of 2 boxes of plinker 6.8 this is true.  However 6.5 is a long range round.  When was the last time you heard of anyone doing target shooting with Wolf? Have you had/shot/studied the 6.8 SPC Ballistics? Other than a great Terminal Ballistics, it does not have much to offer over the 5.56. Since the exterior ballistics of the 6.8 SPC is similar to the 77 grn 5.56, it will never be adopted by the military. The only option is LEO if it even gets support by Remington. The 6.5 is the round that started off to be a competition ammo. Designed by Arne and Bill, the case was further finalized by Lapua engineers. It has a flatter trajectory(A whole lot more match bullet options being 6.5 based) and alloweings the use of heavier bullets. Since the 6.8 was design for the mil, and they dont want it, and the 6.5 was designed for the AR shooters. Guess which one is going to win at the end in the civillian world? And I have said many times now, Remington dropped the ball on support and develope the 6.8 to be a better more flexable ammo(Their last offering was a bolt rifle). But being .270 based simply took match style bullets out of the possibilities for the 6.8.  And now Hornady is throwing in a new ammo for the 6.8 with a different primer puts even more doubt in the future of this round(Original not developed corrrectly?). There is no 6.5-6.8 debate. If you know your balistics and wants a flat shooting bullet with more bullet options(Hunting, target shooting, Long range match) in the AR platform, your best bet is the 6.5 Grendel. And if your looking for the best terminal ballistics in the shortest AR platform get the 6.8 SPC. Both are going to have expensive match grade ammo since neither will likely be adopted by any military to have surplus ammo on the market any time soon.

Good info.




5sub

Quoted: Did Armalite ever announce that they would make a 6.5?

Considering that now.  First ArmaLite wants to be certain of reliable, affordable ammunition.  If that answer is a 'yes', ArmaLite intends to produce a 6.5 on a semi custom basis.




5sub

(Got to admit I have NOT read all 15 pages and this question may have been answered elsewhere.)

Quoted: I for one would like to see Leitner Wise respond to Bill Alexander.  I've been watching this debate for a couple of years now and have closely followed the way Leitner Wise goes about disseminating information and perhaps misinformation.  It is a unique approach to say the least, but now Leitner Wise has the opportunity to answer some relatively simple questions posed to them.

They might be busy with Wildman's .499 upper.  

www.assaultweb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=006166

Stupid question- what does angle of the case have to do with reliability? I am sure that was a red-herring, but I'm curious.

Kinda like a taper pin.  When it works loose it just falls out as opposed to a straight pin that has to be banged out the whole way.

I for one would like to see Leitner Wise respond to Bill Alexander. I've been watching this debate for a couple of years now and have closely followed the way Leitner Wise goes about disseminating information and perhaps misinformation. It is a unique approach to say the least, but now Leitner Wise has the opportunity to answer some relatively simple questions posed to them.

LW only has limited info and experience with 6.5 as far as I know, lots of info on 6.8.  6.8 fits the mission req of what customers are asking for so that is the direction they went.  The decision on supporting 6.8 has nothing to do with 6.5 as he has explained.  Sounds like AA is going to kick ass with 6.5 regardless of 6.8 which is why I don't understand all of the bad karma.  I think it goes both ways as folks want to discredit a competing caliber (hence the title of the thread).  In the end its all good for the industry.  I think common ground here is that improvements can be made over 5.56 without signifcantly changing the platform.  The LW piston guns show the most advantage in short barreled weapons and carbines.  Perfect for the 6.8.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Saddams Back!

ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS PLEASE

So now suddenly we only have a limited information.  Well guess what, that did not stop Mr. Paul Leitner-Wise opening his mouth to start with and just to prevent any back sliding only one of my questions is actually Grendel specific the others should be reasonably easily answered by anyone who has even the most fundemental knowledge of what they are doing. Also for those who are interested I would also bring your attention to exhibit B. It's a procedure called lets run and hide in our industry forum and keep repeating the same s#@t.


Bill Alexander

No one is really sure how the war started some say it was the debate over the 6.8 Spc and the 6.5 Grendel. What ever the reason it escalated to the point we are now left with a burnt out cinder of a planet. If only we had listened to those who so wisely said there is room for both.

Joe

Wouldn't it be possible to order a 6.5g reamer from Midway to chamber a pressure test bbl ?

www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=329990

rj

Quoted: Quoted: Did Armalite ever announce that they would make a 6.5? Considering that now.  First ArmaLite wants to be certain of reliable, affordable ammunition.  If that answer is a 'yes', ArmaLite intends to produce a 6.5 on a semi custom basis. 5sub (Got to admit I have NOT read all 15 pages and this question may have been answered elsewhere.)

It hasn't.
It was mentioned early in the thread that Armalite was considering it. But nothing definite was posted.

Ok, it's been a week since the SHOT Show and I am wondreing if the Pres. of Wolf Ammunition has had time to run the numbers for the final cost of this 6.5 Grendel ammo?  It appears that Armalite is waiting as well.........

Mr. Alexander, would you be so kind in giving us an update.

Curious to know if AA's manufacturing agreement with Wolf  has any stipulation that while under contract, Wolf is not allowed to produce and 6.8 SPC ammunition.

Below is from the ArmaLite Industry Forum:



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"It's a little premature to give pricing on the 6.5.

We're in early, intense discussions about the rifle right now, and we're checking to be damned sure that the ammo is available. Consider the disaster with the 6.8.

Our Engineering Division is really going over the cartridge and its suitability to the small framed rifles now. A shift to a heavier bullet is not a small thing. The bolt is very heavily stressed even with a 55 gr bullet so we've got big concerns about adding weight there. What is the effect on safe propellant charge? What happens when somebody reloads, even though the warrantee is only good for factory ammo? Our patented bolt is stronger than normal construction, but is it strong enough to handle that heavier load?

When we can get an agreement hammered out, we'll get pricing out. It'll be done as a semi-custom product like our .300 RSAUM AR-10.

...AR stands for ArmaLite"


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





5sub

The key thing to keep in mind is that both the 6.5 mm Grendel and the 6.8 mm SPC offer better performance than 5.56 mm for folks going in harms way.

My experience has been with the 6.8 mm. The 6.8 mm has been tested in multiple types of 12-16 inch barrel weapons (not just AR15's) at ranges out to 600 yards in a wide range of environmental conditions and has met all the terminal performance expectations of the military and law enforcement end-users who have been involved in the project. The 6.8 mm has also been used for hunting deer, boar, and other similar game with superb success; likewise, it has been reported that government game wardens have been very pleased with the performance of the 6.8 mm in recent animal harvesting.

The 6.5 mm Grendel also seems like a great cartridge, however the lack of published tests has left a number of unanswered questions regarding its terminal performance, especially out of short barrels.  TX65 and I had a great conversation yesterday—he helped clear-up a couple of questions and offered some advise on the improvements made in the Grendel as it has matured.  Now that shorter barrel Grendel carbines are available, with TX65’s assistance, we are going to begin terminal performance testing of 12-16” barrel Grendels over the next few months.  

The comments that I might be biased in our research show a lack of understanding on how, why, and what our research accomplishes.  Keep in mind that 6.8 mm is just one of numerous weapons programs we work on.  Why would 6.8 mm be more important than our groundbreaking 5.56 mm research for LE and mil,  threat cartridge analysis, .308 assessments for LE use, ongoing 7.62 NATO testing for Mk14/Mk17, LE and mil work on 12 ga projectiles, mil pistol replacement project, LE handgun ammo reviews, or the tragic body armor failures we helped expose????  Also remember that I have NO commercial or financial interest in any company or commercial entity involved in any weapon or ammunition programs, including the 6.8 mm. As I have repeatedly stated, let's identify the best options, validate their advantages, and field them--whether it turns out to be 5.56 mm, 6.5 mm Grendel, 6.8 mm SPC, 7.62 mm, or something entirely unexpected, I will be quite happy, as our guys will have the best munitions available.

Doc, that's great news.  Will be eager to see how your testing comes out in the months ahead!

Yes, great news. I agree with you that the lack of published test data for the 6.5mm Grendel has definately hurt its acceptance in many circles including but not limited to Law Enforcement. As a representative of my LE department I am currently considering a replacement for the 5.56mm platforms in our inventory. To be honest, the only verifiable data that I can find at this point is 5.56mm, 6.8mm, and 7.62mm. I hope this changes soon. Now for the real question. Who here is interested, like me, in a Monolithic Upper (midlenth) with a quick change barrel system that has the ability to take 5.56mm, 6.8mm, and 6.5mm barrels either short stroke piston or DGI. and why hasn't someone come up with it yet? Some have come close, in fact so close its a shame. LMT lacks the 6.5 Grendel barrel and midlenth handguard, VLTOR lacks the quick change barrel system, MGI lacks the midlenth handguard. Any ideas?

Quoted: Yes, great news. I agree with you that the lack of published test data for the 6.5mm Grendel has definately hurt its acceptance in many circles including but not limited to Law Enforcement. As a representative of my LE department I am currently considering a replacement for the 5.56mm platforms in our inventory. To be honest, the only verifiable data that I can find at this point is 5.56mm, 6.8mm, and 7.62mm. I hope this changes soon. Now for the real question. Who here is interested, like me, in a Monolithic Upper (midlenth) with a quick change barrel system that has the ability to take 5.56mm, 6.8mm, and 6.5mm barrels either short stroke piston or DGI. and why hasn't someone come up with it yet? Some have come close, in fact so close its a shame. LMT lacks the 6.5 Grendel barrel and midlenth handguard, VLTOR lacks the quick change barrel system, MGI lacks the midlenth handguard. Any ideas?

LW MRS, if it works and makes it to market.

Quoted: I for one would like to see Leitner Wise respond to Bill Alexander.  I've been watching this debate for a couple of years now and have closely followed the way Leitner Wise goes about disseminating information and perhaps misinformation.  It is a unique approach to say the least, but now Leitner Wise has the opportunity to answer some relatively simple questions posed to them.

I also very much want to hear the answer from Leitner Wise. His credibility is going down the drain now...

Quoted: ....The MGI QCB takes any normal AR15 barrel, and will easily accept the 6.8SPC barrels or 6.5Grendel barrels, or whatever AR15 barrel that you want to put in there. M4 ramps are suggested, so that they mate up with our true-M4 ramps in our upper receiver. .....

How do you handle the enlarging of the ejection port for the 6.5?  Is a large dust cover available?  How about the other monolithic uppers (like the LMT) do they use a larger ejection port to handle other calibers (like the 6.5G , .50B, or .458) ?

Quoted: ... We have been able to enlarge the port enough to get 458 SOCOM out the port, while still retaining the use of the port door. Our new model QCB upper will have enlarged port as standard equipment. We will have a list of calibers that can be used without any further enlargement. Any user can undertake further enlargement for special purposes if he desires.

Awesome!  Thanks for the feedback and information.

Can the 6.5 be loaded to make IPSC Major power factor ? For those unfamiliar, this means that BULLET_WEIGHT (in grains) X MUZZLE_VELOCITY (in FPS) must be 320,000 or more. I think the 6.8 is really marginal with a 20" barrel, but would seriously consider the 6.5 if it could make it.

Quoted: Can the 6.5 be loaded to make IPSC Major power factor ? For those unfamiliar, this means that BULLET_WEIGHT (in grains) X MUZZLE_VELOCITY (in FPS) must be 320,000 or more. I think the 6.8 is really marginal with a 20" barrel, but would seriously consider the 6.5 if it could make it.

Yes, but you will need to reload with the Lapua 144 there is reloading info on it right here Arne from CSS is the one that developed the Load.


Ant  

Ok, TWL are you saying that the midlenth extension is bolted solid onto the handguard? Not just a press fit or press, turn fit? If so that is good. The other question is: Are we going to be able to get 6.5mm Grendel in this platform? This is part of what hurts the 6.5. The unavailability of desired options. It would be nice to have a one piece midlenth though. After further reading on the VLTOR VIS, it looks promising. Its not quick change, however it could be done in under 20 minutes most likely. That is if you can get individual barrel nuts for all your barrels. There always seems to be at least one road block in these systems.

Fair enough. Would you be able to provide one for T&E on department letterhead? Actually I will contact you personnally and we can work out the details off the forum. Sorry for derailing the thread everyone.

Now lets get back to 6.5 vs. 6.8. Thats much more fun.

NEVER!

Can a POF 12" piston/barrel system fit into MGI's quick change upper?

Hmmm. Still waiting for some answers from a certain person... hinking.gif Leitner Wise, where are you???

Quoted: Hmmm. Still waiting for some answers from a certain person... Leitner Wise, where are you???

Check out his Industry Forum, since he has posted a thread about the 68-6.5!  Also after reading some of the thread it seems to me that they have a BIG invested interest in the 6.8.  Since I am pretty sure they will NEVER get authorization to produce the 6.5!

ant

I don't have an opinion one way or the other about the pressure stuff but..

I can't help but notice the similarity between Mr. LW getting one datapoint with pressure other than what some expect, and SC-Texas (or one of those TX 6.8 guys) getting chrono data other than what some expect.

Waiting on the final pricing of the Wolf Ammo.........