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Basic
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Posted: 10/8/2003 5:28:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2003 6:41:09 PM EST by Rockclimbg]
Just curious, is a bull barrel (meant to say HBAR) more accurate/durable or just cheaper to produce than an M4 barrel? Assuming a good manufactor makes each kind of barrel, what are the pros and cons of each?

As always thanks, I owe people on this board many rounds of beer for all the help I've recieved!


edited to say (Hbar), sorry

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Link Posted: 10/8/2003 5:40:28 PM EST
Pros and cons depend on what YOUR gonna do with the gun. A bull barrel is more ridged than the M4 and yeah it will be more accurate but its not gonna be chrome lined like most M4 barrels which will stand up to heat and more abuse.from what i understand the chrome lined are easier to clean. most bulls will be free floated unlike M4 barrels which will help alot in accuracy if you plan on sustained fire.the m4 barrel will warp if it gets hot enough and groups will walk at distances. plus you can mount cool grenade launcher on the m4 barrel=-) feel free to correct me if im wrong about something just felt like giving hm a response since he didnt have any Jeremy

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Link Posted: 10/8/2003 5:53:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By Rockclimbg: Assuming a good manufactor makes each kind of barrel, what are the pros and cons of each?
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well, from my own experince.. HBAR con: very heavy (hence the name).. and youll especially notice it if you plan on doing lots of off-hand shooting, or long-term carrying.. or if you plan on taking some type of tactical carbine class with it... i plan on having my my HBAR shaved down to govt profile..
I owe people on this board many rounds of beer for all the help I've recieved!
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yeah, me too
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Link Posted: 10/8/2003 5:57:43 PM EST
HogKiLLa, Are you sure about bull barrels not being chrome lined? I spoke with a Bushmaster rep and he said all their barrels were chrome lined. Was he wrong or are all Bushmaster Barrels Chrome lined? Not trying to question you, it's just that reps have been known to fib or at least not know certain specs. thanks again.

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Link Posted: 10/8/2003 6:01:43 PM EST
Are we discussing Bull barrels or HBARs?
[size=6]

THE BLACK RIFLE DAY

[/size=6]


Visit: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=24&t=176194
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Link Posted: 10/8/2003 6:04:08 PM EST
he probably was talking about a free floated carbine with a standard barrel. most bulls that im aware of are just chrome-moly. because it would defeat the purpose of a bull barrel to chrome line it since that reduces accuracy. And in bull barrels thats what you want.Chrome lining helps in longer barrel life and heat resistance i think too but not sure. Any body else care to chime in and give a lil more solid info, please do. Jeremy

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Link Posted: 10/8/2003 6:34:01 PM EST
The thicker the barrel, the less it will whip when shot. The thicker the barrel, the more accurate it will be....Provided the manufacturer has done everything correctly in the first place.
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Link Posted: 10/8/2003 6:37:12 PM EST
Ooopps.... Just goes to show what a noob I am, I meant HBar VS M4, my mistake.

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Link Posted: 10/8/2003 8:49:46 PM EST
#1. Bbls ARE (or aren't; same with M4s) chrome lined. This has to do with the manufacturer, not the style of barrel. If your purpose is sustained automatic fire the HBAR comes in handy. Otherwise it's too heavy IMO. I have one myself and intend on putting it on a diet (having it turned to A2 Gov't Profile).

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Link Posted: 10/8/2003 9:07:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2003 9:27:14 PM EST by Lockedon]
HBAR's, due to their better heat dissipation, generally last longer that M4 or other lighter barrels. Hence you could say they are more durable. They can also take a stronger hit than small diameter barrels. Depending on the shooter, an HBAR will give you tighter groups more easily than a light barrel. The only CON i see in HBARs is the weight issue. And as I recall it is less than a pound difference. IMHO
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Link Posted: 10/8/2003 9:29:05 PM EST
I owned a Bushmaster HBAR. I sold it because it was unnecessarily heavy. I now own an M4 contour and am much happier. My M4 contour is more accurate than my HBAR was. HBARs are NOT more accurate when it comes to milspec barrels. HBARs ARE made to be less costly to produce. Do yourself a favor and DONT buy an HBAR then sell it later and have to get a new barrel. The weight you wont be carrying will be worth the fact you cant dump 200 rounds straight and abuse the crap out of your rifle for no reason.

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Link Posted: 10/8/2003 9:32:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2003 9:35:29 PM EST by DevL]
Originally Posted By HoGKiLLa: he probably was talking about a free floated carbine with a standard barrel. most bulls that im aware of are just chrome-moly. because it would defeat the purpose of a bull barrel to chrome line it since that reduces accuracy. And in bull barrels thats what you want.Chrome lining helps in longer barrel life and heat resistance i think too but not sure. Any body else care to chime in and give a lil more solid info, please do. Jeremy
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Also please dont listen to this guy because he has no clue what he is talking about. One of the most accurate off the shlef rifles out there the FN SPR uses MACHINE GUN BARREL BLANKS that are CHROME LINED and the gun can shoot 1/2 to 1/4 MOA groups. Chrome lining will not hurt your accuracy in any discernable way. This guy is just repeating false info he read or was told elsewwhere. And its OK to not know becasue when I cam here years ago I knew pretty much nothing about ARs and I had heard a lot of false stuff too. Oh yeah My M4 barrel is free floated too. Free floating does not always help accuracy either but thats a whole different story.

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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 5:24:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By DevL:
Originally Posted By HoGKiLLa: he probably was talking about a free floated carbine with a standard barrel. most bulls that im aware of are just chrome-moly. because it would defeat the purpose of a bull barrel to chrome line it since that reduces accuracy. And in bull barrels thats what you want.Chrome lining helps in longer barrel life and heat resistance i think too but not sure. Any body else care to chime in and give a lil more solid info, please do. Jeremy
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Also please dont listen to this guy because he has no clue what he is talking about. One of the most accurate off the shlef rifles out there the FN SPR uses MACHINE GUN BARREL BLANKS that are CHROME LINED and the gun can shoot 1/2 to 1/4 MOA groups. Chrome lining will not hurt your accuracy in any discernable way. This guy is just repeating false info he read or was told elsewwhere. And its OK to not know becasue when I cam here years ago I knew pretty much nothing about ARs and I had heard a lot of false stuff too. Oh yeah My M4 barrel is free floated too. Free floating does not always help accuracy either but thats a whole different story.
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Ahem... WRONG. Chrome lining will NOT allow the barrel to become "seasoned". Accuracy will almost always IMPROVE if a barrel is broken-in correctly (long story, maybe later)... The most accurate barrels are stainless steel that has been fire-lapped, and as said before, the bigger the better. Freefloating ALWAYS helps accuracy.
Funny, I don't remember Jesus ever mentioning anything about a "Pope", or telling people to pray to his mother.
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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 6:30:48 AM EST
Yes, The thickness of the barrel dose not automaticly make an accurate rifle. My KAC SR M-4 is moe accurate than any Hbar or heavey barrel I have ever had. Has more to do with quality of barrel than thickness.

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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 7:34:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 7:35:39 AM EST by DevL]
The FN SPR is chrome lined and shoots 1/4 MOA. The Remington PSS is not chrome lined and shoots 1/2 to 1 MOA. In this case both are low cost factory bores of non custom rifles. The chrome lined is more accurate. Barrel quality is FAR, FAR, FAR more important than whether its chrome lined or not. Barrel quality is FAR, FAR, FAR more important than diameter. Remington applies pressure to their barrels in some of their lighter weight hunting barrels. They do not free float them because the consistant pressure on the barrel aids accuracy and youd get larger groups as the barrel walked as the rifle heated up. If you dont believe me go ask Remington and post your Email correspondance here. Several members have reported free floating their barrels and experiencing a LOSS in accuracy. For an AR free foating requires a new barrel nut and if installed impropperly or if the tube and nut is of low quality you can decrease your accuracy.

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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 10:00:42 AM EST
Make sure you are comparing apples to apples and not apples to pineapples. Discussions have included bull barrels, HBAR, M4 contour and light barrel contours. 1. For barrels of the same length, the barrel with a greater diameter (assuming no fluting) will exhibit less flex & whip and assuming all other variables are the same, will be intrinsically more accurate. 2. For barrels of the same diameter, but different lengths, the shorter barrel will be stiffer and will exhibit less flex & whip and assuming all other variables are the same, will be intrinsically more accurate. When you compare chrome-lined vs. non-chrome lined, carbine sight radius vs. rifle sight radius, etc., you are introducing more variables. Don't forget, even barrels that appear to be exactly the same will usually exhibit different degrees of accuracy with different loads/velocities, etc when compared to each other. One person's subjective experience is useless for the sake of this discussion. As far as cost goes, the amount of steel is not as large a part of the cost as the amount of machining. Machining an M4 profile on a barrel blank takes more labor and is therefore more costly than a straight, bull barrel. However, you'll probably pay more for a bull barrel because they aren't produced in as large a quantity and because there are tighter specs with regards to the bore and chamber. That over-balances the cost savings on the profile machining.

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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 10:17:11 AM EST
My rifles were same length, same manufacturer, same sight radius, same gas system, same shooter. Thats as close as you will get. I am not trying to talk about "theory" I am talking about real world results. Barrel thickness is the least important issue. Chrome lined bores dont hamper accuracy for "real world" shooting. If the guy wants a target gun he should get a heavy barreled SS match chambered rifle, you are correct in that regard. That is not what the poster is asking about. He will notice no difference for the type of shooting he is going to be doing. He will however notice the extra weight of the HBAR.

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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 5:09:36 PM EST
I originally built my first AR (target) around a .920"("BULL"pretty much the whole length of the barrel!) 1-9 20" SS KRIEGER Barrel. The rest of the gun was mostly DPMS. I sold that (very heavy) rifle because I wanted to build something w/ the compactness of an M4, but with that same mind-blowing accuracy. Thus here is what I came up with: [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/p3c240b65093539df7e83279bc25aa7f4/fb0967e6.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/p1358e25e3ca1b6bfc36bb51f898c09ea/fb09685d.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid81/p79d3cd2feaf12c7689dd595efeeb636d/fafb1249.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid81/p372a4f10aebb2dc27ba2565bbe5092e6/fafb1203.jpg[/img] Here is a reply I received from a DIEMACO tech: "Our CT and target barrels normally have a recessed 11degree crown. But some times our customer wants a 90 dergree or other crowns for their special applications. Your choice of a Krieger barrel is a good one, we sometimes use his barrel blanks for special applications and if we have no time or capacity to produce them at the time." 2nd time around I went with a KRIEGER chrome-moly carbine barrel (16.25", .720"muzzle 1-9)w/ KAC FF MRE. I shoot Black Hills 63gr moly, with such accuracy, that you gotta see to beleive (though my range is only to 200 yards). I also tried some very rapid fire tests (J.P. SS 3lb trigger) w/ Wal-Mart Winchester ammo 55gr (cheaper stuff), with not a single problem.

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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 5:26:25 PM EST
Regarding your accuracy question. I happen to be testing to new rifles, a Colt M4 and a RRA 24" Varminter. I swaped a Tasco 10X SS between the two rifles and shot from a bench with sand bags at 100 yards. Q3131a Colt 1.87" RRA 1.85", X193 Colt 1.66 RRA 1.37, 75 Grain Hornady handload Colt 2.01" RRA .74", 69 grain Nosler handload Colt 1.07" RRA .64". All groups are the average of five, five shot groups. The barrels are not the only factor. The Colt has a standard triger and the RRA a two stage. I hope this lends some perspective.

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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 5:27:09 PM EST
Regarding your accuracy question. I happen to be testing to new rifles, a Colt M4 and a RRA 24" Varminter. I swaped a Tasco 10X SS between the two rifles and shot from a bench with sand bags at 100 yards. Q3131a Colt 1.87" RRA 1.85", X193 Colt 1.66 RRA 1.37, 75 Grain Hornady handload Colt 2.01" RRA .74", 69 grain Nosler handload Colt 1.07" RRA .64". All groups are the average of five, five shot groups. The barrels are not the only factor. The Colt has a standard triger and the RRA a two stage. I hope this lends some perspective.

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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 6:49:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By DevL: Chrome lining will not hurt your accuracy in any discernable way.
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Tell that to any of the worlds top long range rifle competitors and they will laugh in you face.

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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 6:59:05 PM EST
I am quite happy with my Bushmaster 14.5" heavy bbl which IS chrome lined. I didn't go for the M4 cut because I'm not going to mount an M203 or Flare launcher on any of my rifles (I carried an M16A1 w/M203, so I know better) [}:D]
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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 7:08:11 PM EST
Thanks for all the replies, Is it safe to assume for a general purpose rifle that might do some long distance shooting (200+yrds) but will mainly see offhand shooting at 40 to 120 yrds, a m4 barrel is the way to go. What would an Hbar do that a m4 couldn't at that distance? (assuming both are of hight quality and chrome lined) Thanks for all the replies.

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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 7:09:42 PM EST
hbar would "last" longer under sustained fire.
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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 7:39:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy:
Originally Posted By DevL: Chrome lining will not hurt your accuracy in any discernable way.
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Tell that to any of the worlds top long range rifle competitors and they will laugh in you face.
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This guy is not interested in highpower rifle competitions. He wants to know if he can hit a beer can at 100 yards. Chrome linging wont change whether he hits it or not. Thus he will have no discernable change in the accuracy. See that word discernable means he has to be able to tell. Since he wont, its not discernable to him. The HBAR will not get hot as quickly but to alleviate that you can pour some water from your bottled water on your barrel and keep bump firing if you like. There is no real reason for a casual shooter or even a LEO to get an HBAR or unlined barrel for casual use or use as a trunk gun.

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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 8:21:25 PM EST
The HBAR might hold tighter patterns under sustained fire at longer distances compared to the M4 profile. The same could be said for any quality manufactured large diameter bbl of the same length. I own three HBARs, all BM, a forth on the way. I have not owned an M4 profile bbl, Mil Spec or not.
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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 9:32:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By DevL: The FN SPR is chrome lined and shoots 1/4 MOA. The Remington PSS is not chrome lined and shoots 1/2 to 1 MOA. In this case both are low cost factory bores of non custom rifles. The chrome lined is more accurate. Barrel quality is FAR, FAR, FAR more important than whether its chrome lined or not. Barrel quality is FAR, FAR, FAR more important than diameter.
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[bs] Lemme guess- this is the story for the 1/4 moa FN SPR "[paid gun writer]the Fn had some great groups- several of the groups were 1/4 inch in size, when measured with a ruler. We fired three shot groups, cause we didn't want the barrel to heat up. We did get some 1/4 inch groups when we shot 5 round groups, when we subtracted the "called round" [bs] You show me that gun shooting 5 x 5 shot groups, consecutively, and them averaging 1/4 inch, and i'll say i don't know what i'm talking about. Anything else is so much bs it makes me [furious] another way i look at it is the hunter guy that shoots every month a couple of boxes of ammo, he has produced an honest 1/2 group a couple of times. Does that make his rifle a 1/2 moa gun? NO! When his gun averages 1/2 moa, he can call it that, not because he's got one group he can pull out of his wallet. I'd be suprised if any of them gun writers can shoot a 1/4 inch group, except maybe rick jamison. (I'm sure some of the others can, but alot of them can't/ won't)
what site?
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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 9:49:10 PM EST
Personal owner on sniper country... "...So how does the SPR shoot in the new stock? Better than I can. I was finally able to get it out this April, with temperatures in the low 40's and a 15 - 20 mph wind coming out of the west. We kept our ear muffs on even when we weren't shooting - to keep our ears warm. After I got the rifle sighted in, I had two really nice 5 shot groups, both of which were blown by a single flyer (loose nut behind the trigger). Discounting the flyer in each group, one group was .63MOA and the other was .26MOA. Considering that the rifle was shooting commercial ammo, has less than 30 rounds through it, and was being shot by someone who will never be seen on the firing line at Camp Perry, I am very happy with it..." Still pretty damned accurated for chrome lined... like I said it wont make a difference to the casual shooter. This is what you were talking about right? I admit the best accuracy cant be had with chrome lined but the poster will never notice the difference.

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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 10:08:12 PM EST
ha ha ha. No, i did not know there had been an actual review of the rifle that would mirror what i wrote. But i knew there would be something like it. I basically don't trust any gunwriter to say a gun is a 1/4 moa gun unless he shoots benchrest and is honest about it. It is just to small unless a guy devotes more time to it than most working people have to spare. And especially for a production rifle. But it does sound like the FN is a real nice produciton rifle, are they available to the general public?
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Link Posted: 10/9/2003 10:13:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 10:16:15 PM EST by DevL]
Yes there are several suppliers. They went to a new version though and now they are way more expensive. CMMG from this site carries them. Also they weigh a freaking ton. The 20" SPR weighs more than a 26" Remington PSS.

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