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I have a feeling that people who still support troy, are to young to have been aware what was going on when Ruby Ridge happened. At least that is my hope. I can't image anyone who followed the the details of the massacre as it happened and the details that came out in the aftermath, could possibly support troy. I hope those that still choose to read up on the matter.
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I have a feeling that people who still support troy, are to young to have been aware what was going on when Ruby Ridge happened. At least that is my hope. I can't image anyone who followed the the details of the massacre as it happened and the details that came out in the aftermath, could possibly support troy. I hope those that still choose to read up on the matter. View Quote They are either too young to know or too young to care... |
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I have to admit... now I just come to the Troy forum to read this one string. Its like watching a train wreck - frame by frame. Goes to show you, hiring decisions are among the most important decisions we make. As to why Troy doesn't come here and respond... would you? If they are not going to change their mind, why put your head in this particular bear trap.
As others have stated, there are lots of replacements in the market for Troy stuff. Here is hoping that more folks vote with their feet. D |
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I have a feeling that people who still support troy, are to young to have been aware what was going on when Ruby Ridge happened. At least that is my hope. I can't image anyone who followed the the details of the massacre as it happened and the details that came out in the aftermath, could possibly support troy. I hope those that still choose to read up on the matter. View Quote I was 12 when Ruby Ridge happen an I remember it very well. I think a lot of people just dont care, Which is sad. |
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I think I have figured this ALL out! I am betting this is all just a PLOY to get the Chinese to stop making Knock off parts. I am sure that when that happens Ol' Steve is gonna come out with a statement explaining the whole thing...
Sad thing is it might work and even sadder is that says to me that the Chinese Knock Off Outfits have more integrity and business smarts than the folks at the WORLD of TROY!!!! ALL of our Troy stuff is on CLEARENCE and I still can't sell it- CANCELLED $13K in orders and Troy just don't care.....Small fish compared to the Contracts they got from the JBT ABC outfits I guess. Hope the Gov contracts are worth the Shit pond your swimming in now... I would have liked to see one of Troys Neighbors at shot show with a sign up explaining who they hire and SUPPORT!!! For ALL of you who don't mind dealing with a company that feeds these JBT's I have great news, There is MORE Troy stuff in stock at the wholesalers than I have ever seen before! |
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WOW! I just read this after I just purchased a Troy Alpha rail. Not sure I will be using this rail after hearing about this. Thanks for the heads up!
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I don't get why hiring someone who didn't kill anyone at Ruby Ridge but happened to be there would bring a company so much flak. I totally get the police chief firing and why his "almost hiring" (hired but didn't get a chance to actually teach yet and then let go when people raised hell about him) would be an issue. But that was seemingly a case where Troy didn't Google this guy. Resumes can look impressive even though the guy himself could be full of crap. They fixed that, though, by canning the guy once his anti-2a stance was exposed to them. What do people want here from Troy for the sniper guy - fire some guy who worked for the government just because he once was on the scene of a major
clusterf*ck but didn't do anything to contribute or make it worse? (Assuming that he didn't help kill innocents) I don't know him, but I am guessing he didn't come away from Ruby Ridge thinking that more innocent people should have been shot. I imagine the presentation Troy says he had done on what went wrong wasn't that they should have raped the women and children and nuked the place from orbit to cover their tracks. I guess I could be wrong... but I doubt he likes how it went down or that he wishes he had killed anyone. Would you feel differently if he had been home sick with the flu that day and not been on the scene? Is that his sin - being there? Or do you have this much venom for everyone in the whole organization at the time, even the guy back at the office pushing a broom? This won't impact my purchasing decision. I just bought another Troy BUIS and was here trying to figure out why i couldn't find the TRX Extreme rails anymore (that was my favorite rail). Then I read all of this. Jeez, y'all get your panties in a wad over the weirdest stuff. I'm more worried about the threads about stuff from Troy declining in quality and parts having to be sent back. ETA: I have been out of the loop for a couple of years since my brother died in a car wreck and i moved back home. I just now realized I still had BRD. That is why I didn't know anything about Alpha or Bravo rails. WTH is this keymod stuff now? Jeez, gun stuff changes fast. Blink, and you are a dinosaur. Lol |
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Some folks are a bit pissy because the owner decided to support Kerry in 2004 View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Why Leatherman? Some folks are a bit pissy because the owner decided to support Kerry in 2004 Not just that. He made the BATFE some special tools that had "ATF - Always Think Forfeiture" on them, referring to how they can charge your property with a crime even if you haven't been charged, so they can legally steal your helicopter or Lamborghini (or guns) because you may have done something illegal or may not have, but they get to keep the stuff anyway and sell it (or use it). Forfeiture is the "easy" way government entities get money and free stuff from people who aren't even proven guilty yet and may never be found guilty of any crimes. |
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I don't get why hiring someone who didn't kill anyone at Ruby Ridge but happened to be there would bring a company so much flak. I totally get the police chief firing and why his "almost hiring" (hired but didn't get a chance to actually teach yet and then let go when people raised hell about him) would be an issue. But that was seemingly a case where Troy didn't Google this guy. Resumes can look impressive even though the guy himself could be full of crap. They fixed that, though, by canning the guy once his anti-2a stance was exposed to them. What do people want here from Troy for the sniper guy - fire some guy who worked for the government just because he once was on the scene of a major clusterf*ck but didn't do anything to contribute or make it worse? (Assuming that he didn't help kill innocents) I don't know him, but I am guessing he didn't come away from Ruby Ridge thinking that more innocent people should have been shot. I imagine the presentation Troy says he had done on what went wrong wasn't that they should have raped the women and children and nuked the place from orbit to cover their tracks. I guess I could be wrong... but I doubt he likes how it went down or that he wishes he had killed anyone. Would you feel differently if he had been home sick with the flu that day and not been on the scene? Is that his sin - being there? Or do you have this much venom for everyone in the whole organization at the time, even the guy back at the office pushing a broom? This won't impact my purchasing decision. I just bought another Troy BUIS and was here trying to figure out why i couldn't find the TRX Extreme rails anymore (that was my favorite rail). Then I read all of this. Jeez, y'all get your panties in a wad over the weirdest stuff. I'm more worried about the threads about stuff from Troy declining in quality and parts having to be sent back. ETA: I have been out of the loop for a couple of years since my brother died in a car wreck and i moved back home. I just now realized I still had BRD. That is why I didn't know anything about Alpha or Bravo rails. WTH is this keymod stuff now? Jeez, gun stuff changes fast. Blink, and you are a dinosaur. Lol View Quote I think you may need to read up a little more on everything that took place at Ruby Ridge. You may also want to look into what Mr. Monroe stated in his testimony in the government hearings of the incident as well. If you still don't get it, you may be in the wrong field of interest.... |
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I was completly oblivious to this and shocked honestly. Thank you Mr Troy for your honesty and forwardness addressing your social stance/ideals in the matter. I have enjoyed your innovation and trusted your products thoughout the years. However I will no longer use nor buy your equipment, and will influence many others to do the same. Stand tall and firm in your beliefs sir, as i shall do the same.
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I think you may need to read up a little more on everything that took place at Ruby Ridge. You may also want to look into what Mr. Monroe stated in his testimony in the government hearings of the incident as well. If you still don't get it, you may be in the wrong field of interest.... View Quote Ok, I read as many facts as I could find on it (via a Google search) since your post. I still think the same way. I don't really think like the herd based upon their emotion - I typically reserve judgment until I see facts to make me form a decision. I think everyone here should read the rest or Mr. Troy's statements in this link: http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=8860 Troy seems to be following up there on his original statement made here. His new info agrees with what I found in my own search before I even saw his newer comments - Monroe shot no one and wasn't going to shoot anyone except Harris, who had previously killed a US Marshal. Monroe said he would take the shot at Harris, who was the target that was shot at by his partner. He didn't say he would shoot a woman in the face if the other guy hadn't. The woman was supposedly hit by the bullet accidentally. Some reports seem to indicate that the bullet actually hit Harris and passed through to hit Mrs. Weaver who was behind the door and out of sight. I don't believe they saw her behind a screen door or whatever and shot her in the face on purpose, knowing it was a woman with a child. That would make the shooter a monster - I find that hard to believe unless someone has a link to real facts showing he shot her on purpose. I don't know all the facts, and no one who wasn't there may ever know them. I know people died because of what seemed to be a family's belief that the government was out to get them and a government that seemingly was sort of out to get them (to arrest them, anyway, and then to kill them when they found out they were armed and took defensive positions when someone approached). But I don't see anything that indicates that Monroe himself is a murderer or thug of any kind from the facts I see online. I see a lot of emotion on each side, but no real facts or testimony that I found (in my albeit limited search) that indicate that hiring Monroe would make you an evil person who supports tyranny and murder. Like I said before - the whole Ruby Ridge debacle was a massive clusterf*ck. But I'm no Monday-morning quarterback. I can't claim to know who shot whom or why. I just know that hiring Monroe doesn't raise the hair on my neck any - he didn't shoot nobody (at least at Ruby Ridge) and doesn't say he would have shot Mrs. Weaver, as some here seem to erroneously claim. I did learn from my research, however, that you need to be proactive in seeking out your court date and any updates to said date when accused of a crime so you can appear at court (kangaroo or legitimate court hearings), or they will take your gun ownership and defensive posture as a reason to kill you and possibly your family as well on sight and have a legal excuse for the killing. That's a bit terrifying. I'm not implying that failure to appear in court meant killing anyone was justified. I just see now that they can make a case to legalize just about anything they do if you don't jump through the hoops when commanded. |
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I did learn from my research, however, that you need to be proactive in seeking out your court date and any updates to said date when accused of a crime so you can appear at court (kangaroo or legitimate court hearings), or they will take your gun ownership and defensive posture as a reason to kill you and possibly your family as well on sight and have a legal excuse for the killing. That's a bit terrifying. I'm not implying that failure to appear in court meant killing anyone was justified. I just see now that they can make a case to legalize just about anything they do if you don't jump through the hoops when commanded. View Quote Wow. May your chains rest lightly. I wonder where the founding fathers would be with that paragraph. Ruby Ridge was an abomination. The guilty have never been punished. mr troy and mr munroe are unapologetic in support of the tyranny. If you're good with your position, good luck. |
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Wow. May your chains rest lightly. I wonder where the founding fathers would be with that paragraph. Ruby Ridge was an abomination. The guilty have never been punished. mr troy and mr munroe are unapologetic in support of the tyranny. If you're good with your position, good luck. View Quote I'd be willing to guess Samuel Adams' thoughts on engineer2001's post... |
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I wonder where the founding fathers would be with that paragraph. Ruby Ridge was an abomination. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I did learn from my research, however, that you need to be proactive in seeking out your court date and any updates to said date when accused of a crime so you can appear at court (kangaroo or legitimate court hearings), or they will take your gun ownership and defensive posture as a reason to kill you and possibly your family as well on sight and have a legal excuse for the killing. That's a bit terrifying. I'm not implying that failure to appear in court meant killing anyone was justified. I just see now that they can make a case to legalize just about anything they do if you don't jump through the hoops when commanded. I wonder where the founding fathers would be with that paragraph. Ruby Ridge was an abomination. I would venture to say they would be as appalled as me? I don't get your point here. I was saying the legalizing of killing people because of their failure to jump through hoops was bad? Terrifying, even. They screw up, go off half cocked on bad intel, shoot dogs, shoot people, and then go oopsie and move on. Scary. I agree that it was a total cluster. Eta: Just in case I wasn't clear above, the government (in my opinion) screwed the pooch royally on this one. I don't know all the motivations behind their actions, but the aftermath shows they really screwed up. I don't think Troy is saying otherwise, do you? |
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I'd be willing to guess Samuel Adams' thoughts on engineer2001's post... View Quote I'd be willing to guess he would have taken the time to actually read it and have understood it better than the people who quoted me so far. Perhaps I am not clear in my communications. Government = screw ups at Ruby Ridge. Monroe = participant to screwing up but not actual murderer. Troy = bad at pre-interview vetting of applicants but not a supporter of tyranny (at least not for the reasons shown in this forum). I don't know him, so he may be plotting to kill us all, for all I know, but I don't see any evidence to indicate that. |
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I'd be willing to guess he would have taken the time to actually read it and have understood it better than the people who quoted me so far. Perhaps I am not clear in my communications. Government = screw ups at Ruby Ridge. Monroe = participant to screwing up but not actual murderer. Troy = bad at pre-interview vetting of applicants but not a supporter of tyranny (at least not for the reasons shown in this forum). I don't know him, so he may be plotting to kill us all, for all I know, but I don't see any evidence to indicate that. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I'd be willing to guess Samuel Adams' thoughts on engineer2001's post... I'd be willing to guess he would have taken the time to actually read it and have understood it better than the people who quoted me so far. Perhaps I am not clear in my communications. Government = screw ups at Ruby Ridge. Monroe = participant to screwing up but not actual murderer. Troy = bad at pre-interview vetting of applicants but not a supporter of tyranny (at least not for the reasons shown in this forum). I don't know him, so he may be plotting to kill us all, for all I know, but I don't see any evidence to indicate that. Ohhhh, well now that you put it that way... So since he didn't actually kill anybody, even though he was clearly okay with the ROE's and stood by while such actions took place, he's okay in your book? Too much derp for me... |
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Ohhhh, well now that you put it that way... So since he didn't actually kill anybody, even though he was clearly okay with the ROE's and stood by while such actions took place, he's okay in your book? Too much derp for me... View Quote No, he is not okay in my book. I'm not hanging out with him or anything. He is just not a murderer as some are trying to make him seem. This thread seems to be rooted in some fallacy that Monroe is a murderer and Troy is endorsing a heavy-handed government putting a boot on the throats of law abiding gun owners. Go back and read the first post in this thread again. Troy says Ruby Ridge was wrong - government gone wild. He says they screwed up. He says training others on what went wrong and how to prevent it can keep it from happening again. Ah, anyway, I don't have a dog in this fight. I just couldn't believe people would jump on someone the way they did in this thread. |
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engineer2001:
Your research on Ruby Ridge was apparently very selective. The USMS opened fire on one of the Weaver's dog, and Randy Weaver's son, Samuel, returned fire, and Randy, Samuel, and Harris, started to retreat to the cabin, at which point the USMS shot Samuel in the back, killing him. Harris returned fire, killing DUSM Degan. It is telling that the jury accepted Harris' version of the shoot out over the gov't's. And Dale Monroe testified that he would have taken THE SAME SHOT as Horiuchi that killed Vicki Weaver. Dale Monroe had the ability to call off the shot, but did not do so, and his testimony shows he was just as guilty as Horiuchi. And here is a little more evidence to bolster the extrajudicial murder of Vicki Weaver: The Department of Justice Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR) Ruby Ridge Task Force Report (June 10, 1994) stated in section I. Executive Summary subhead B. Significant Findings that the second shot did not satisfy constitutional standards for legal use of deadly force.[54] The OPR review also found the lack of a request to surrender was "inexcusable", since Harris and the two Weavers were running for cover without returning fire and were not an imminent threat. The task force also specifically blamed Horiuchi for firing through the door, not knowing whether someone was on the other side of it. While controversy exists as to who is responsible for approving the ROE that were being followed by the sniper, the task force also condemned the so-called "rules of engagement" allowing shots to be fired with no request for surrender |
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I draw parallels between Ruby Ridge and My Lai. When you are ordered to do something unconstitutional, inhuman, and amoral you have an obligation to stand up. Failing to do so and then helping cover up for it should be and extension of the fellony murder rule. Even worse sinse it was under the color of authority.
These were people who had an oath to defend the constitution, other officers and agencies rejected the ROE. Bad enough that they didn't reject them at the time, worse that they fail to see the mistake after the fact, inexcusable that they are unapologetic about it, and it says something about a persons character that they support such a person. Regardless of individual details, the courts and congressional record found they were wrong. Regardless of an individuals involvement, to think that what happened at Ruby Ridge was proper says something about a persons character. |
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Of course the RR incident was terrible. That said Mr. Troy didn't hire the trigger man but if that would of made him even more money than the guy he did hire good for him. He did not hire a serial killer but a guy standing next to a guy that followed an order albeit a bad order.
Troy is a capitalist and so am I. Don't know why he hired Weis...but he did can him. Who knows. Not a smart move by any means. But I am not going to hate the guy for wanting to make tons of money because that's the American way! We can all agree Troy makes a quality product....we should be happy they are suppling more to the military. Now...when he starts selling a new and improved centrifuge to Iran...let me know. |
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Of course the RR incident was terrible. That said Mr. Troy didn't hire the trigger man but if that would of made him even more money than the guy he did hire good for him. He did not hire a serial killer but a guy standing next to a guy that followed an order albeit a bad order. Troy is a capitalist and so am I. Don't know why he hired Weis...but he did can him. Who knows. Not a smart move by any means. But I am not going to hate the guy for wanting to make tons of money because that's the American way! We can all agree Troy makes a quality product....we should be happy they are suppling more to the military. Now...when he starts selling a new and improved centrifuge to Iran...let me know. View Quote The anger towards Troy isn't because of hiring Weis (although that was part of it). The dissension comes from hiring (and keeping) Dale Monroe. Monroe was Horiuci's spotter at Ruby Ridge, and in his Congressional testimony he stated that if given the opportunity he would have taken the same shot that killed Vicki Weaver. |
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Did BCM used to use TROY sights? They just switched to Diamond Head on all their rifles.
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Of course the RR incident was terrible. That said Mr. Troy didn't hire the trigger man but if that would of made him even more money than the guy he did hire good for him. He did not hire a serial killer but a guy standing next to a guy that followed an order albeit a bad order. Troy is a capitalist and so am I. Don't know why he hired Weis...but he did can him. Who knows. Not a smart move by any means. But I am not going to hate the guy for wanting to make tons of money because that's the American way! We can all agree Troy makes a quality product....we should be happy they are suppling more to the military. Now...when he starts selling a new and improved centrifuge to Iran...let me know. View Quote That really is a whole different subject. Nobody is arguing that troy shouldn't be able to hire him. A big part of capitalism is free markets. I am hoping an informed consumer votes with their dollar. Morality and capatalism aren't and shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Companies and Consumers are more than their business decisions. |
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That really is a whole different subject. Nobody is arguing that troy shouldn't be able to hire him. A big part of capitalism is free markets. I am hoping an informed consumer votes with their dollar. Morality and capatalism aren't and shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Companies and Consumers are more than their business decisions. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Of course the RR incident was terrible. That said Mr. Troy didn't hire the trigger man but if that would of made him even more money than the guy he did hire good for him. He did not hire a serial killer but a guy standing next to a guy that followed an order albeit a bad order. Troy is a capitalist and so am I. Don't know why he hired Weis...but he did can him. Who knows. Not a smart move by any means. But I am not going to hate the guy for wanting to make tons of money because that's the American way! We can all agree Troy makes a quality product....we should be happy they are suppling more to the military. Now...when he starts selling a new and improved centrifuge to Iran...let me know. That really is a whole different subject. Nobody is arguing that troy shouldn't be able to hire him. A big part of capitalism is free markets. I am hoping an informed consumer votes with their dollar. Morality and capatalism aren't and shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Companies and Consumers are more than their business decisions. Morality and capitalism are almost always mutually exclusive and we all know it. If a large business made decisions with their heart they would soon be out of business. Carnegie, J.P. Morgan and Rockefeller all knew that. Would you all of boycotted their products? And of course lets not leave out the Walton family. They are not the riches family in world because they mix morality with capitalism. A consumer on the other hand often has that luxury to make purchasing decisions with their heart. And we also all know it wasn't the first time nor will it be the last time some poor guy is ordered to do something really unsavory whether he/she agrees with it or not. A person under command does not have the luxury of questioning the morality of every order he/she is given. And that is how the command structure is maintained. It often does not work out the way we may like but it is that way for a reason. Even at the Nuremberg trials many Nazi soldiers (not officers) were acquitted because they were merely following orders and the judges understood the problems that can happen with a ruthless chain of command. That spotter was just the messenger unfortunately for him. Now Mr. Troy may be a bit cold but he is not unpatriotic and I for one am glad our military is getting his quality products. Again...I am not saying anything that I don't think all of you guys already know and understand. |
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Of course the RR incident was terrible. That said Mr. Troy didn't hire the trigger man but if that would of made him even more money than the guy he did hire good for him. He did not hire a serial killer but a guy standing next to a guy that followed an order albeit a bad order. Troy is a capitalist and so am I. Don't know why he hired Weis...but he did can him. Who knows. Not a smart move by any means. But I am not going to hate the guy for wanting to make tons of money because that's the American way! We can all agree Troy makes a quality product....we should be happy they are suppling more to the military. Now...when he starts selling a new and improved centrifuge to Iran...let me know. View Quote No it isn't. That's the neckbearding way. Unless money is your God. |
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No it isn't. That's the neckbearding way. Unless money is your God. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Of course the RR incident was terrible. That said Mr. Troy didn't hire the trigger man but if that would of made him even more money than the guy he did hire good for him. He did not hire a serial killer but a guy standing next to a guy that followed an order albeit a bad order. Troy is a capitalist and so am I. Don't know why he hired Weis...but he did can him. Who knows. Not a smart move by any means. But I am not going to hate the guy for wanting to make tons of money because that's the American way! We can all agree Troy makes a quality product....we should be happy they are suppling more to the military. Now...when he starts selling a new and improved centrifuge to Iran...let me know. No it isn't. That's the neckbearding way. Unless money is your God. Umm...yes it is. And what the hell is neckbearding? Ok...according to the urban dictionary: "Jokingly- A general term for the many actions an IT professional must do at work. Derogatory- The act of doing unnecessarily time consuming technical things on a computer for the sake of epeen, lack of better things to do, or for no meaningful contribution to society." Now...what does that have to do with the topic? Because it has nothing to do with capitalism unless you think wanting to make money doesn't contribute anything to society. How bout job creation? |
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Morality and capitalism are almost always mutually exclusive and we all know it. If a large business made decisions with their heart they would soon be out of business. Carnegie, J.P. Morgan and Rockefeller all knew that. Would you all of boycotted their products? A consumer on the other hand often has that luxury to make purchasing decisions with their heart. And we also all know it wasn't the first time nor will it be the last time some poor guy is ordered to do something really unsavory whether he/she agrees with it or not. A person under command does not have the luxury of questioning the morality of every order he/she is given. And that is how the command structure is maintained. It often does not work out the way we may like but it is that way for a reason. Even at the Nuremberg trials many Nazi soldiers (not officers) were acquitted because they were merely following orders and the judges understood the problems that can happen with a ruthless chain of command. That spotter was just the messenger unfortunately for him. Now Mr. Troy may be a bit cold but he is not unpatriotic and I for one am glad our military is getting his quality products. Again...I am not saying anything that I don't think all of you guys already know and understand. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Of course the RR incident was terrible. That said Mr. Troy didn't hire the trigger man but if that would of made him even more money than the guy he did hire good for him. He did not hire a serial killer but a guy standing next to a guy that followed an order albeit a bad order. Troy is a capitalist and so am I. Don't know why he hired Weis...but he did can him. Who knows. Not a smart move by any means. But I am not going to hate the guy for wanting to make tons of money because that's the American way! We can all agree Troy makes a quality product....we should be happy they are suppling more to the military. Now...when he starts selling a new and improved centrifuge to Iran...let me know. That really is a whole different subject. Nobody is arguing that troy shouldn't be able to hire him. A big part of capitalism is free markets. I am hoping an informed consumer votes with their dollar. Morality and capatalism aren't and shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Companies and Consumers are more than their business decisions. Morality and capitalism are almost always mutually exclusive and we all know it. If a large business made decisions with their heart they would soon be out of business. Carnegie, J.P. Morgan and Rockefeller all knew that. Would you all of boycotted their products? A consumer on the other hand often has that luxury to make purchasing decisions with their heart. And we also all know it wasn't the first time nor will it be the last time some poor guy is ordered to do something really unsavory whether he/she agrees with it or not. A person under command does not have the luxury of questioning the morality of every order he/she is given. And that is how the command structure is maintained. It often does not work out the way we may like but it is that way for a reason. Even at the Nuremberg trials many Nazi soldiers (not officers) were acquitted because they were merely following orders and the judges understood the problems that can happen with a ruthless chain of command. That spotter was just the messenger unfortunately for him. Now Mr. Troy may be a bit cold but he is not unpatriotic and I for one am glad our military is getting his quality products. Again...I am not saying anything that I don't think all of you guys already know and understand. While I could certainly point out exceptions to the rule and go into more detail, I never asserted that I was talking about morality of the supply side, I was in fact talking about the demand side. Just as you indicated the consumer has a right, to make buying decisions based on anything they please. We are in agreement. All of that isn't relevant, nobody is arguing that Troy can't hire who they want and you can't purchase from whomever you want. People should have all the facts and judge for themselves. My day care center has a right to hire whoever they want, including a paroled kiddy diddler. Not only do I have the right not to send my kid there, I would have a right to tell the other parents that do and let them make their own decision. This isn't a second amendment issue, what happened at Ruby Ridge was an unprecedented and unconstitutional travesty. Anyone who fails to see that isn't educated enough on what happened. It is bad enough to have not had the moral courage to stand up for it then, when it was part of your oath to do so, back the actions at the time of inquiry, continue in hindsight not to admit the errors of your ways but to support someone who does so is worse. It makes it an ongoing crime in my mind. It is all a matter of opinion. I choose not to support someone who's morals or so drastically different than my own. I think it is shameful on their part. You disagree. Let the public be educated and make their own decision. Let the consumer, in a capitalist economy, petition the business and tell them why they choose not to purchase their product. Customers did it with the working condition in the Apple factories, people vote with their dollars in regards to child labor in the textile marketplace. I have no illusion of getting you or anyone else to change your opinion once you are educated on the facts. Getting someone to change their morals is as impossible as herding cats. The difference between me and Dale/troy is I support your constitutional rights to feel and act that way. They don't support even your most basic rights. |
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While I could certainly point out exceptions to the rule and go into more detail, I never asserted that I was talking about morality of the supply side, I was in fact talking about the demand side. Just as you indicated the consumer has a right, to make buying decisions based on anything they please. We are in agreement. All of that isn't relevant, nobody is arguing that Troy can't hire who they want and you can't purchase from whomever you want. People should have all the facts and judge for themselves. My day care center has a right to hire whoever they want, including a paroled kiddy diddler. Not only do I have the right not to send my kid there, I would have a right to tell the other parents that do and let them make their own decision. This isn't a second amendment issue, what happened at Ruby Ridge was an unprecedented and unconstitutional travesty. Anyone who fails to see that isn't educated enough on what happened. It is bad enough to have not had the moral courage to stand up for it then, when it was part of your oath to do so, back the actions at the time of inquiry, continue in hindsight not to admit the errors of your ways but to support someone who does so is worse. It makes it an ongoing crime in my mind. It is all a matter of opinion. I choose not to support someone who's morals or so drastically different than my own. I think it is shameful on their part. You disagree. Let the public be educated and make their own decision. Let the consumer, in a capitalist economy, petition the business and tell them why they choose not to purchase their product. Customers did it with the working condition in the Apple factories, people vote with their dollars in regards to child labor in the textile marketplace. I have no illusion of getting you or anyone else to change your opinion once you are educated on the facts. Getting someone to change their morals is as impossible as herding cats. The difference between me and Dale/troy is I support your constitutional rights to feel and act that way. They don't support even your most basic rights. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Of course the RR incident was terrible. That said Mr. Troy didn't hire the trigger man but if that would of made him even more money than the guy he did hire good for him. He did not hire a serial killer but a guy standing next to a guy that followed an order albeit a bad order. Troy is a capitalist and so am I. Don't know why he hired Weis...but he did can him. Who knows. Not a smart move by any means. But I am not going to hate the guy for wanting to make tons of money because that's the American way! We can all agree Troy makes a quality product....we should be happy they are suppling more to the military. Now...when he starts selling a new and improved centrifuge to Iran...let me know. That really is a whole different subject. Nobody is arguing that troy shouldn't be able to hire him. A big part of capitalism is free markets. I am hoping an informed consumer votes with their dollar. Morality and capatalism aren't and shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Companies and Consumers are more than their business decisions. Morality and capitalism are almost always mutually exclusive and we all know it. If a large business made decisions with their heart they would soon be out of business. Carnegie, J.P. Morgan and Rockefeller all knew that. Would you all of boycotted their products? A consumer on the other hand often has that luxury to make purchasing decisions with their heart. And we also all know it wasn't the first time nor will it be the last time some poor guy is ordered to do something really unsavory whether he/she agrees with it or not. A person under command does not have the luxury of questioning the morality of every order he/she is given. And that is how the command structure is maintained. It often does not work out the way we may like but it is that way for a reason. Even at the Nuremberg trials many Nazi soldiers (not officers) were acquitted because they were merely following orders and the judges understood the problems that can happen with a ruthless chain of command. That spotter was just the messenger unfortunately for him. Now Mr. Troy may be a bit cold but he is not unpatriotic and I for one am glad our military is getting his quality products. Again...I am not saying anything that I don't think all of you guys already know and understand. While I could certainly point out exceptions to the rule and go into more detail, I never asserted that I was talking about morality of the supply side, I was in fact talking about the demand side. Just as you indicated the consumer has a right, to make buying decisions based on anything they please. We are in agreement. All of that isn't relevant, nobody is arguing that Troy can't hire who they want and you can't purchase from whomever you want. People should have all the facts and judge for themselves. My day care center has a right to hire whoever they want, including a paroled kiddy diddler. Not only do I have the right not to send my kid there, I would have a right to tell the other parents that do and let them make their own decision. This isn't a second amendment issue, what happened at Ruby Ridge was an unprecedented and unconstitutional travesty. Anyone who fails to see that isn't educated enough on what happened. It is bad enough to have not had the moral courage to stand up for it then, when it was part of your oath to do so, back the actions at the time of inquiry, continue in hindsight not to admit the errors of your ways but to support someone who does so is worse. It makes it an ongoing crime in my mind. It is all a matter of opinion. I choose not to support someone who's morals or so drastically different than my own. I think it is shameful on their part. You disagree. Let the public be educated and make their own decision. Let the consumer, in a capitalist economy, petition the business and tell them why they choose not to purchase their product. Customers did it with the working condition in the Apple factories, people vote with their dollars in regards to child labor in the textile marketplace. I have no illusion of getting you or anyone else to change your opinion once you are educated on the facts. Getting someone to change their morals is as impossible as herding cats. The difference between me and Dale/troy is I support your constitutional rights to feel and act that way. They don't support even your most basic rights. Absolutely agree with you on that. But again...and its just my opinion of course...you are taking it out on the messenger who was following orders. Its hard to get away from that fact. Tell me what he should have done please. What would you have done? |
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Absolutely agree with you on that. But again...and its just my opinion of course...you are taking it out on the messenger who was following orders. Its hard to get away from that fact. Tell me what he should have done please. What would you have done? View Quote You know when I was in the service we had class after class on the requirements of orders. The word "orders" was almost always preceded by "lawful." We were instructed time and time again so that things like My Lai didn't happen again. There were other agencies at the time and individuals who rejected the ROE, knew they were criminal. But my objection comes not as much from what happened at the time but his continued belief that what was done was right and just. He is no longer the messenger any longer- even the government admitted it was wrong. |
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You know when I was in the service we had class after class on the requirements of orders. The word "orders" was almost always preceded by "lawful." We were instructed time and time again so that things like My Lai didn't happen again. There were other agencies at the time and individuals who rejected the ROE, knew they were criminal. But my objection comes not as much from what happened at the time but his continued belief that what was done was right and just. He is no longer the messenger any longer- even the government admitted it was wrong. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Absolutely agree with you on that. But again...and its just my opinion of course...you are taking it out on the messenger who was following orders. Its hard to get away from that fact. Tell me what he should have done please. What would you have done? You know when I was in the service we had class after class on the requirements of orders. The word "orders" was almost always preceded by "lawful." We were instructed time and time again so that things like My Lai didn't happen again. There were other agencies at the time and individuals who rejected the ROE, knew they were criminal. But my objection comes not as much from what happened at the time but his continued belief that what was done was right and just. He is no longer the messenger any longer- even the government admitted it was wrong. Ok...just so I understand. The FBI has publicly said that what they did was wrong but he has said...no we were not wrong. If that is the case than yeah....seems a little blood thirsty on his part. But apparently there are those in government procuring that don't mind and will do business with him. So now he is just a means to an end for Mr. Troy and if it makes him a richer man for it...well I would most likely do the same thing. |
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Wow I just spent the last two hours reading about this...
What is some of the companies stance that sell Troy products? BCM really comes to mind as a company that would not stand for this, but they sell their product and I know they have had to heard about it. Until they make a stand, the few of us who refuse to buy their stuff won't change anything. |
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Wow I just spent the last two hours reading about this... What is some of the companies stance that sell Troy products? BCM really comes to mind as a company that would not stand for this, but they sell their product and I know they have had to heard about it. Until they make a stand, the few of us who refuse to buy their stuff won't change anything. View Quote BCM has no problem either apparently since they sell troy BUIS with BCM stamped on them. I get the Shotgun News and BCM has a 2 page ad in every issue. In it they advertise BCM BUIS and in the brief description they state "Manufactured by Troy Industries". |
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I'm willing to give any of these companies a reasonable amount of time to unload troy *spit* inventory.
I will say it's starting to look like troy's fan boys have a valid point and some of these dealers are restocking troy products. I will be refusing to buy from those restocking dealers also. I'm paying attention. |
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Wow I just spent the last two hours reading about this... What is some of the companies stance that sell Troy products? BCM really comes to mind as a company that would not stand for this, but they sell their product and I know they have had to heard about it. Until they make a stand, the few of us who refuse to buy their stuff won't change anything. View Quote A lot of companies still sell there stuff because no pushes the subject with them.. Look at AIM Surplus for example everyone loves there prices so they over look them selling Troy crap. |
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A lot of companies still sell there stuff because no pushes the subject with them.. Look at AIM Surplus for example everyone loves there prices so they over look them selling Troy crap. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Wow I just spent the last two hours reading about this... What is some of the companies stance that sell Troy products? BCM really comes to mind as a company that would not stand for this, but they sell their product and I know they have had to heard about it. Until they make a stand, the few of us who refuse to buy their stuff won't change anything. A lot of companies still sell there stuff because no pushes the subject with them.. Look at AIM Surplus for example everyone loves there prices so they over look them selling Troy crap. If AIM wants to stock items covered in the blood of inocents, I will not hold that againts them, I will just let it set on their shelf. My beef is with those the make the blood covered items. |
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i just read this and am disgusted. i will never again buy a troy product.
way to have some morals mr. troy maybe instead of selling my mfr rail, i will just throw it in the trash instead. |
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Maybe they are feeling the heat. They are not on the vendor list at the NRA convention this weekend.
***** I stand corrected. Just got an email from them on show specials. Booth 3504 ********** Bob |
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Maybe they are feeling the heat. They are not on the vendor list at the NRA convention this weekend. ***** I stand corrected. Just got an email from them on show specials. Booth 3504 ********** Bob View Quote I received the same email this morning. At the bottom of the email is an unsubscribe link. It was useful. |
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Son of a.........
I'm just getting back into the AR thing and working a new build. Been outta the loop for a while and had no idea of this issue. Really was leaning towards the Charlie/Delta series and was looking for feedback on the product. Well I guess I'll have to keep searching for a drop in replacement free floater else where. Damn because this one looked really promising too considering my budget and exact needs but it is disturbing to hear of this. Sad indeed as I was about to pull the trigger for one. :( Sucks because this was half the price of the DD RIS II I initially wanted. |
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My Troy products are still functioning as intended, which is why I bought the products in the first place. Not because of who Troy hired to design, make, promote, etc...
How many decisions have you made that negatively impacted something or someone? Let me guess, this is different... Time to grow up and move on peeps... |
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My Troy products are still functioning as intended, which is why I bought the products in the first place. Not because of who Troy hired to design, make, promote, etc... How many decisions have you made that negatively impacted something or someone? Let me guess, this is different... Time to grow up and move on peeps... View Quote It IS different. I never made a decision to take guns away from law-abiding citizens. Nor did I ever testify under oath that I would have shot a mother in the head while holding a baby if I was the one behind the gun. Grow up and move on. Not a FUCKING chance. |
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It IS different. I never made a decision to take guns away from law-abiding citizens. Nor did I ever testify under oath that I would have shot a mother in the head while holding a baby if I was the one behind the gun. Grow up and move on. Not a FUCKING chance. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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My Troy products are still functioning as intended, which is why I bought the products in the first place. Not because of who Troy hired to design, make, promote, etc... How many decisions have you made that negatively impacted something or someone? Let me guess, this is different... Time to grow up and move on peeps... It IS different. I never made a decision to take guns away from law-abiding citizens. Nor did I ever testify under oath that I would have shot a mother in the head while holding a baby if I was the one behind the gun. Grow up and move on. Not a FUCKING chance. U are feeding a troll. Never feed the trolls. |
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U are feeding a troll. Never feed the trolls. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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My Troy products are still functioning as intended, which is why I bought the products in the first place. Not because of who Troy hired to design, make, promote, etc... How many decisions have you made that negatively impacted something or someone? Let me guess, this is different... Time to grow up and move on peeps... It IS different. I never made a decision to take guns away from law-abiding citizens. Nor did I ever testify under oath that I would have shot a mother in the head while holding a baby if I was the one behind the gun. Grow up and move on. Not a FUCKING chance. U are feeding a troll. Never feed the trolls. Thanks for the reminder. I had a moment. |
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My Troy products are still functioning as intended, which is why I bought the products in the first place. Not because of who Troy hired to design, make, promote, etc... How many decisions have you made that negatively impacted something or someone? Let me guess, this is different... Time to grow up and move on peeps... View Quote Yea, COC doesn't keep me from saying what I think of you... Getting banned for violating it does.... |
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Fuck Troy and that JBT Dale "I would have taken the shot" Monroe.
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Just a reminder that we have not forgotten, Steve. I urge my local shops to drop your product whenever I see them in stock.
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Just picked up a new rifle at a shop that used to always carry Troy. They had none I went with the new Magpul MBUS PROs and don't regret it one bit.
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