User Panel
Posted: 4/22/2014 3:29:09 PM EDT
In AR Discussions.
Many posts are just plain trolling. I don't understand it and find it hard to stay COC compliant there sometimes. Anyone else notice? |
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[#1]
Lots of derp. Don't waste your breath or time on them. They want to believe what that believe, and the derp army will attack you if you speak up.
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[#4]
Not just online but in person too. My friends all have BCMs and look down on my KISS 6920 setup. My response to them? Purchased a second Colt AR!
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[#5]
I appreciate the responses gentlemen.
I've got a 6920 and two 6940's that are perfectly finished, uber reliable and stupid accurate. |
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[#6]
I ignore them as well.Not worth the headache arguing with them.
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[#7]
Yes, I agree just ignore them, most of them are noobs and don't have much experience with the AR platform.
Ask a long time AR guy and the majority of them would say that Colt are high quality, very reliable and the closest to the military issue M4 carbine. |
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[#8]
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[#9]
don't listen to them, we all know Colt makes quality products.
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[#10]
I'm kinda the same, but in reverse. Now that 6920s are commonly available for about $1,100, I don't know why anybody would buy a Armalite / BCM / Bushmaster / CMMG / DPMS / Rock River / Ruger / Sig / Windham / whatever else non-boutique AR at about the same price.
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[#11]
My only issue with Colt is the barrel. Beyond that they are best in class. If Colt would stuff some hammered mid length barrels on there I'd be really happy.
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[#12]
Quoted:
My only issue with Colt is the barrel. Beyond that they are best in class. If Colt would stuff some hammered mid length barrels on there I'd be really happy. View Quote The desire for a mid length I can understand, but what advantage do you see to the CHF barrel? Longevity? Accuracy? The tightest group I've ever shot with an AR15 was with my late 1980s Colt HBAR, and it was consistently tight. |
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[#13]
Longevity, and I believe that a good CHF barrel is better than a buttoned barrel of like quality.
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[#14]
Everyone loves to hate on the king of the hill. This is true in everything. It is when you are no longer hated on that you have to look around. Most likely you will find you are no longer on top.
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[#15]
I just came in from a Colt hate thread over in AR Discussions.
The Colt hate is so thick there it defies anyone with a thinking brain. It's even been spreading to forums where it used to not be tolerated. |
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[#16]
Yeah it's everywhere, I have a a Daniel defense ddm4v7 that is modified to my liking, bcm4 mod 3, bcm4 bfh and my colt 6920. I posted up in a local gun trader that I wanted to trade the bfh for another colt and I got bashed hard because I was a bcm for a colt
people were sending me msgs telling me how stupid I was for trading a top tier bcm for a pos colt, that got many service men killed because it jammed and they were the cheapest bid that's why the military uses them, and if I was gonna depend on it with my life I might as well shoot myself I have another bcm Daniel defense and another colt I like variety |
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[#17]
I have many Colt ARs and that company has changed in the year and a half...
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[#18]
I spend most my time on a Sig forum because of my pistols: M1-A11, 229 in .40/.357 & 220
(I have 3 AKs) When I posted in the rifle forum I was ready for my first AR and was seriously considering Colt over a M400, there wasn't much dissent, if any. In fact, mostly "good choice." |
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[#19]
I don't know how you can hate a company that makes the civilian AR's just like the proven M4's that are still being used by the best military in the world.
I also don't understand why the hate for a company that proof tests every barrel and bolt. I understand paying more for a particular barrel you want, but when you compare basic M4 variants, I'd rather buy from the company producing them for decades. |
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[#21]
A Colt XM177 carbine kept my ass alive during my vacation to Southeast Asia in 1968-1969........you know I love them!
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[#22]
Quoted:
I'm kinda the same, but in reverse. Now that 6920s are commonly available for about $1,100, I don't know why anybody would buy a Armalite / BCM / Bushmaster / CMMG / DPMS / Rock River / Ruger / Sig / Windham / whatever else non-boutique AR at about the same price. View Quote Id buy a BCM over a Colt, but would buy a colt over any of the other ones mentioned. |
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[#23]
My first AR was a Colt back in 1991 and since then I have owned others such as Daniel Defense and LMT. All I read is how people seem to get upset over the finish of a Colt compared to others but every Colt I have received were great. I guess they want pretty safe Queens so they can go to the range and shoot 50 rounds twice a year. I do like the Colt name and what it stands for as a resale value but now there are endorsements from instructors on television for BCM and DD which does help with sales. I have owned DD and LMT which are great rifles and BCM appears to be the same. I have sold my DD and will be selling the LMT due to replacement rifles purchased which are Colts.
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[#24]
Quoted:
Id buy a BCM over a Colt, but would buy a colt over any of the other ones mentioned. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm kinda the same, but in reverse. Now that 6920s are commonly available for about $1,100, I don't know why anybody would buy a Armalite / BCM / Bushmaster / CMMG / DPMS / Rock River / Ruger / Sig / Windham / whatever else non-boutique AR at about the same price. Id buy a BCM over a Colt, but would buy a colt over any of the other ones mentioned. Why would you buy a BCM over a Colt? Please explain |
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[#25]
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[#27]
I like my Colt 6933 just fine. Haven't shot my 6450, but it's waiting on a Form 1 so no big deal..
I also like my Noveske stripped lower with a Noveske MK18 upper, my ARFCOM lower with my LWRCI M6A2 10.5" piston upper, my CMMG lower with my Noveske 10.5" Switchblock, and my DSG lower with complete FN 20" upper built as an A2. Companies like BCM, DD, and others are building rifles and components that match the TDP at a lower price point than Colt. And Colt isn't the easiest company to deal with from either a consumer or industry level. And last I checked, FN is building guns for the government in larger quantities than Colt. Colt is still suffering from their well deserved rep of not really serving the civilian market from the early years of the AR platform from the '70 up to the mid '00. All you need do to figure that out is look at all the changes they made like large front pin guns, the old large pin trigger groups, the stupid SP1 carriers and so forth... And they still don't fully mill their lowers! Many of the other companies make lowers that are closer to mil-spec than Colt. |
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[#28]
It is a very long tradition. There was a time when Colt seemed to not care about the civilian market. Colt tried to preempt assault weapons bans by being PC. Especially when the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan started, very few Colts were hitting the US market (check ATF records on annual production numbers if you are interested).
This all changed about 5 or 6 years ago. There were changes in leadership, resulting in a large number of rifles hitting the market, an abandonment of the PC crap, and a new diversity of products. Plus, since supply is no longer artificially low, prices have come down quite a lot. For example, if you wanted a Colt 6920 in 2005, you had to spend months searching for a vendor who had one, and would sell it to "civilians." The price would be around 1400 to 1600. Then, you received a rifle market "LEO only". Now you can buy one that says "M4 Carbine" at your local Walmart for 1000 to 1100. I see Colt hate the same way I see Ruger hate. At one time, it was justified. That time has long since passed. |
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[#29]
Quoted:
It is a very long tradition. There was a time when Colt seemed to not care about the civilian market. Colt tried to preempt assault weapons bans by being PC. Especially when the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan started, very few Colts were hitting the US market (check ATF records on annual production numbers if you are interested). This all changed about 5 or 6 years ago. There were changes in leadership, resulting in a large number of rifles hitting the market, an abandonment of the PC crap, and a new diversity of products. Plus, since supply is no longer artificially low, prices have come down quite a lot. For example, if you wanted a Colt 6920 in 2005, you had to spend months searching for a vendor who had one, and would sell it to "civilians." The price would be around 1400 to 1600. Then, you received a rifle market "LEO only". Now you can buy one that says "M4 Carbine" at your local Walmart for 1000 to 1100. I see Colt hate the same way I see Ruger hate. At one time, it was justified. That time has long since passed. View Quote I agree for the most part. But the reverse hate for quality guns and parts from DD, BCM, and others is just as misplaced. I do hate DPMS though, and won't own ANYTHING from them...Oly is higher in my book than DPMS.. And I have owned 2 Oly guns... One an SGW pre-ban (when it mattered during the AWB) and the other I turned around quick because I just wanted the SUM carbine upper... Thing was a tack driver.. I did sell the SGW to a member here in NY after the federal AWB sunset... |
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[#30]
Quoted:
Companies like BCM, DD, and others are building rifles and components that match the TDP at a lower price point than Colt. View Quote Having heard many people argue about TDP, I'm left with the question of how a company other than Colt can truly produce TDP spec products for the civilian market. It was my understanding (probably wrong.....) that Colt owns the plans, designs, specs, etc... of the AR15, and TDP spec products can be made by Colt because it's basically theirs. Other companies that make weapons and parts for the government can also make TDP spec products for the government, but they don't have the rights to make and sell those TDP spec products for the civilian market. While I'm an unabashed Colt fan, I also have a couple non-Colt builds and really don't have problems with many brands. If it works, who cares what brand it is! Some people say "brand X is better than Colt." What is "better?" What does that mean? If we're talking aesthetics, does it really matter what anyone thinks? The dimensions of (I'm assuming) all the parts of an AR15 are known, so anyone can make a part that is dimensionally correct. There's more to it than that though. Is it made of the right material? Is it forged, cast, MIM, stamped, extruded, etc....? Is it heat treated, individual or batch MPI tested? Is the coating correct? Is it tested to meet TDP strength? Lastly, does it really matter for a particular part if it's actually TDP or not? Maybe, maybe not. I'm left with what I believe to be true. I *know* what I'm getting with Colt. Most of the parts I get from Colt are the real deal and will work exactly the way they are supposed to work. Way more often than not, I don't really *know* what I'm getting with another brand. It may look right, but is it? Maybe it's stronger, lighter and prettier, but how do I know? Maybe it doesn't matter. Do I care if a flash hider is TDP? No. Bolt group? Yes. |
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[#31]
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[#32]
Quoted:
Having heard many people argue about TDP, I'm left with the question of how a company other than Colt can truly produce TDP spec products for the civilian market. It was my understanding (probably wrong.....) that Colt owns the plans, designs, specs, etc... of the AR15, and TDP spec products can be made by Colt because it's basically theirs. Other companies that make weapons and parts for the government can also make TDP spec products for the government, but they don't have the rights to make and sell those TDP spec products for the civilian market. While I'm an unabashed Colt fan, I also have a couple non-Colt builds and really don't have problems with many brands. If it works, who cares what brand it is! Some people say "brand X is better than Colt." What is "better?" What does that mean? If we're talking aesthetics, does it really matter what anyone thinks? The dimensions of (I'm assuming) all the parts of an AR15 are known, so anyone can make a part that is dimensionally correct. There's more to it than that though. Is it made of the right material? Is it forged, cast, MIM, stamped, extruded, etc....? Is it heat treated, individual or batch MPI tested? Is the coating correct? Is it tested to meet TDP strength? Lastly, does it really matter for a particular part if it's actually TDP or not? Maybe, maybe not. I'm left with what I believe to be true. I *know* what I'm getting with Colt. Most of the parts I get from Colt are the real deal and will work exactly the way they are supposed to work. Way more often than not, I don't really *know* what I'm getting with another brand. It may look right, but is it? Maybe it's stronger, lighter and prettier, but how do I know? Maybe it doesn't matter. Do I care if a flash hider is TDP? No. Bolt group? Yes. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Companies like BCM, DD, and others are building rifles and components that match the TDP at a lower price point than Colt. Having heard many people argue about TDP, I'm left with the question of how a company other than Colt can truly produce TDP spec products for the civilian market. It was my understanding (probably wrong.....) that Colt owns the plans, designs, specs, etc... of the AR15, and TDP spec products can be made by Colt because it's basically theirs. Other companies that make weapons and parts for the government can also make TDP spec products for the government, but they don't have the rights to make and sell those TDP spec products for the civilian market. While I'm an unabashed Colt fan, I also have a couple non-Colt builds and really don't have problems with many brands. If it works, who cares what brand it is! Some people say "brand X is better than Colt." What is "better?" What does that mean? If we're talking aesthetics, does it really matter what anyone thinks? The dimensions of (I'm assuming) all the parts of an AR15 are known, so anyone can make a part that is dimensionally correct. There's more to it than that though. Is it made of the right material? Is it forged, cast, MIM, stamped, extruded, etc....? Is it heat treated, individual or batch MPI tested? Is the coating correct? Is it tested to meet TDP strength? Lastly, does it really matter for a particular part if it's actually TDP or not? Maybe, maybe not. I'm left with what I believe to be true. I *know* what I'm getting with Colt. Most of the parts I get from Colt are the real deal and will work exactly the way they are supposed to work. Way more often than not, I don't really *know* what I'm getting with another brand. It may look right, but is it? Maybe it's stronger, lighter and prettier, but how do I know? Maybe it doesn't matter. Do I care if a flash hider is TDP? No. Bolt group? Yes. The TDP is not owned by Colt, nor is it it 'top secret'. It's owned by the gov't. FN has been producing M-16's for the gov't for at least a decade now, and they are built to the TDP. But there are no secrets in the TDP. It was simply a matter of people settling for 'look-a-likes" that didn't meet the minimum standards of the TDP because prior to the explosion of the internet, and sites like this, And you kid yourself if you think Colt sold TDP compliant guns to the general public willingly.... |
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[#33]
Colt does own the TDP for the M4 that is why FN pays Colt a royalty on every M4 they make.
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[#34]
Wrong info. Colt owns the TDP for the M4 and the M16. It is a secret and is not shared and it is not public information.
Brent |
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[#35]
I prefer Colt, mainly because of the name and the fact it simply fires every time I pull the trigger, I buy my guns for several reasons, primarily, quality and reliability, Colt seems to do that quite well, even if there is a minor finish issue with the rifle, I realize they have had their share of tough times and quality issues, but overall, the few rifle I have bought have worked without issue and have never had to be fixed or replaced, plus for me they are the closest thing I can get to what I used in the Army.
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[#36]
Quoted:
Wrong info. Colt owns the TDP for the M4 and the M16. It is a secret and is not shared and it is not public information. Brent View Quote Not true. Google "how the Colt TDP got out" and click on the result that is an article in Defense Industry Daily. The M4 TDP was distributed to 21 vendors in 1996 by mistake. |
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[#37]
Quoted:
Not true. Google "how the Colt TDP got out" and click on the result that is an article in Defense Industry Daily. The M4 TDP was distributed to 21 vendors in 1996 by mistake. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Wrong info. Colt owns the TDP for the M4 and the M16. It is a secret and is not shared and it is not public information. Brent Not true. Google "how the Colt TDP got out" and click on the result that is an article in Defense Industry Daily. The M4 TDP was distributed to 21 vendors in 1996 by mistake. Colt owns the M4 TDP. Others pay royalties. FN paid royalties on the A4 as well. |
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[#38]
Quoted:
Colt owns the M4 TDP. Others pay royalties. FN paid royalties on the A4 as well. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Wrong info. Colt owns the TDP for the M4 and the M16. It is a secret and is not shared and it is not public information. Brent Not true. Google "how the Colt TDP got out" and click on the result that is an article in Defense Industry Daily. The M4 TDP was distributed to 21 vendors in 1996 by mistake. Colt owns the M4 TDP. Others pay royalties. FN paid royalties on the A4 as well. Yes, but it's not a secret. The data is known by many. TDP Leaked |
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[#39]
View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Wrong info. Colt owns the TDP for the M4 and the M16. It is a secret and is not shared and it is not public information. Brent Not true. Google "how the Colt TDP got out" and click on the result that is an article in Defense Industry Daily. The M4 TDP was distributed to 21 vendors in 1996 by mistake. Colt owns the M4 TDP. Others pay royalties. FN paid royalties on the A4 as well. Yes, but it's not a secret. The data is known by many. TDP Leaked I know a guy who had a copy. But if he used it, he'd be liable. |
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[#41]
The TDP is a lviing document and changes all the time. If someone had a TDP from the past it would not be the same as the current TDP.
Brent |
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[#42]
Quoted:
Why would you buy a BCM over a Colt? Please explain View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I'm kinda the same, but in reverse. Now that 6920s are commonly available for about $1,100, I don't know why anybody would buy a Armalite / BCM / Bushmaster / CMMG / DPMS / Rock River / Ruger / Sig / Windham / whatever else non-boutique AR at about the same price. Id buy a BCM over a Colt, but would buy a colt over any of the other ones mentioned. Why would you buy a BCM over a Colt? Please explain For one it's my preference of a mid length gas system over a carbine system. The second reason is I think the chf barrels by BCM are better than Colt's barrels. Third, based on stories if the two I feel I would be taken care of better/faster if I ever had a problem with a BCM over a Colt. The next two reason are kind of stupid reasons but they are still reasons. I don't like how my dad's Colt only has a 4 position receiver extension, and I don't like how Colts aren't low shelf. I know I'm most likely never going to get a RDIAS so it's kind of irrelevant. That being said, I'll probably own 6933 before I get a BCM just due to it being a Colt. |
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[#43]
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[#44]
View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Wrong info. Colt owns the TDP for the M4 and the M16. It is a secret and is not shared and it is not public information. Brent Not true. Google "how the Colt TDP got out" and click on the result that is an article in Defense Industry Daily. The M4 TDP was distributed to 21 vendors in 1996 by mistake. Colt owns the M4 TDP. Others pay royalties. FN paid royalties on the A4 as well. Yes, but it's not a secret. The data is known by many. TDP Leaked The TDP being improperly leaked does not equate to "the data is known by many." If you read the article you linked to in full, all copies were recovered and/or destroyed, except for by FNMI - who, at the time was not manufacturing AR15s commercially. FNMI signed a statement to the effect that the TDP had not been used improperly, which is exactly what it would be/would have been if they had either used it, or from there "leaked" it to other manufacturers making AR15 pattern commercial firearms. Yes, the TDP was leaked by NSWC-Crane in 1996. This does not mean that it is in any way "common" or "public" knowledge. If FNMI had used the TDP improperly and/or any such improper use could have been proved, it would jeopardize all of their other military contracts - not, I would think, worth it when they're making hand over fist for M2HBs, M249s, M240s, M16A2s, etc. for whatever small potatoes the commercial market might have to offer. As I replied to your question in another thread, the redesign of the Gen. I PMags, which worked in Colt lowers is a lingering indication of the legacy of reverse engineering. As is the fact that BCM has recently released their own BCM branded M4 upper because of a 40% reject rate from OEM suppliers (i.e. not working off of the "data [supposedly] known by many"). ~Augee |
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[#45]
Quoted:
The TDP is a lviing document and changes all the time. If someone had a TDP from the past it would not be the same as the current TDP. Brent View Quote Glad to see you over here on ARFCOM Brent. I appreciate your credibility and helpfulness. Bishop3 TexasGuns 1911Forum BTW I used the Colt M16A2, Marine Corps 85-93 no issues, and now use the Colt Law Enforcement Carbine 6920, again no issues. |
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[#46]
I owned a Colt HBAR before I enlisted, was issued Colts of various ages and miles, and bought a Colt SOCOM last year. Colt has been the one rifle that never failed for me. When I recently needed an upper to mate to a Rainier lower, I bought the Colt SOCOM upper. They fit as if they were made together.
Nothing but Colt love here, but it has been earned. |
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[#47]
Thanks very much for your service to our country monadh and Bishop3.
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[#48]
Well I just ordered a LE6920MP-B (looking forward to it) so I will see how it stacks up. My first rifle was a M&P15x and recently I added a BCM 14.5" ELW w/13" KMR, BCM BCG, sitting on a Mega lower with DD LPK and Raptor CH, and Ergo Deluxe grip. The Colt will be paired up with a Colt Combat Elite 1911.
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[#50]
Quoted:
I'm kinda the same, but in reverse. Now that 6920s are commonly available for about $1,100, I don't know why anybody would buy a Armalite / BCM / Bushmaster / CMMG / DPMS / Rock River / Ruger / Sig / Windham / whatever else non-boutique AR at about the same price. View Quote Amen!!!!!! |
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