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Posted: 10/20/2014 9:49:57 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Any opinion on this? Course of fire for AR15 rifle is 10 rds standing 5 rds kneeling and 5 rounds prone. Firearms instructor wants the safety engaged before going to the kneel and prone. I agree prior to running with rifle to the next station but from a fixed position? sounds like a course ment for VERY basic training. safety comes off when entering a threat area, doesnt go back on until all threats are gone. you SHOULD train how you fight. and everyone should be wearing armor anyway. |
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Posted: 10/20/2014 10:21:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Safety comes off when you recognize the threat and are coming up on target. When the threat is neutralized (or course of fire is shot) safety is re-engaged. That is why more and more people are teaching to engage safety between the courses of fire so it reinforce the muscle memory of threat-on sights and safety off, no threat=safety on. Saying that everyone should be wearing their armor is bad as that means you might as well run around with a hot gun the whole time as the odds of us shooting each other in that 8x10 rifle plate are 100% so everyone goes home. One of the most tragic things we see is blue on blue in training.
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Posted: 10/20/2014 10:21:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
sounds like a course ment for VERY basic training. safety comes off when entering a threat area, doesnt go back on until all threats are gone. you SHOULD train how you fight. and everyone should be wearing armor anyway. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Any opinion on this? Course of fire for AR15 rifle is 10 rds standing 5 rds kneeling and 5 rounds prone. Firearms instructor wants the safety engaged before going to the kneel and prone. I agree prior to running with rifle to the next station but from a fixed position? sounds like a course ment for VERY basic training. safety comes off when entering a threat area, doesnt go back on until all threats are gone. you SHOULD train how you fight. and everyone should be wearing armor anyway. Not many LE wear body armor that'll stop 5.56 I would say the whole purpose of the practice is to get the use of the safety to be automatic. |
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Posted: 10/20/2014 10:23:38 PM EDT
[#4]
That does sound like a basic rifle course... I agree with the safety goes off when entering a threat area and does not go back on until the threat is either in cuffs or the coroner is called.
If you are going to be in static firing positions the safety should be off. I can see where one would put the safety on going from a standing to a laying position but it really should be left off the entire time. Does the instructor make everyone holster their sidearm when going from one firing position to another, NO!!! It goes into the universal cover position. |
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Posted: 10/20/2014 11:23:39 PM EDT
[#5]
Safety on or off is a hot topic and I predict a lot of heated discussion. I have my own opinion but the current trend in most places is to take the safety off when engaging the target and then assess and place back on safe.
Both theories have valid arguments IMO. |
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Posted: 10/20/2014 11:43:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Luckily the saftey on the AR is extremely user friendly and easy to engage. The purpose of engaging the safety in the application you speak of is to prevent negligent discharges while moving from the different shootin positions. People can make serious mistakes if they are rushing. I think it is good to train using the saftey. Fourth firearm saftey rule states to keep your weapon on safe until you intend to fire. I disagree that holstering a pistol is the same as engaging a saftey on an AR and that your weapon stays on fire the entire time you are in a threat area.
I was part of a close quarters battle team in the marine corps. The training to get the MOS was extremely difficult and strict to keep movements and engagements safe. We practiced saftey on anytime we were moving. If a threat presented itself saftey off and then engage. You could transition from target to target w/out the saftey but once the threat was down you would engage the saftey. If I were to take shots standing then take shots in the prone my muscle memory would have the saftey on durin that transition. You're not gonna lose any time. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 9:54:33 AM EDT
[#7]
Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on.
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:47:20 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Safety comes off when you recognize the threat and are coming up on target. When the threat is neutralized (or course of fire is shot) safety is re-engaged. That is why more and more people are teaching to engage safety between the courses of fire so it reinforce the muscle memory of threat-on sights and safety off, no threat=safety on. Saying that everyone should be wearing their armor is bad as that means you might as well run around with a hot gun the whole time as the odds of us shooting each other in that 8x10 rifle plate are 100% so everyone goes home. One of the most tragic things we see is blue on blue in training. never said that. I said you SHOULD be wearing armor when doing movement training. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:49:44 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not many LE wear body armor that'll stop 5.56 I would say the whole purpose of the practice is to get the use of the safety to be automatic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Any opinion on this? Course of fire for AR15 rifle is 10 rds standing 5 rds kneeling and 5 rounds prone. Firearms instructor wants the safety engaged before going to the kneel and prone. I agree prior to running with rifle to the next station but from a fixed position? sounds like a course ment for VERY basic training. safety comes off when entering a threat area, doesnt go back on until all threats are gone. you SHOULD train how you fight. and everyone should be wearing armor anyway. Not many LE wear body armor that'll stop 5.56 I would say the whole purpose of the practice is to get the use of the safety to be automatic. we have always worn the full tac vest when doing any movement training. yes, the use of a safety should be automatic, and I am a big fan of train how you would do it if real. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:50:20 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
never said that. I said you SHOULD be wearing armor when doing movement training. Quote HistoryQuoted:
never said that. I said you SHOULD be wearing armor when doing movement training. How many LEOs are issued armor that defeats 5.56? Quoted:
we have always worn the full tac vest when doing any movement training. yes, the use of a safety should be automatic, and I am a big fan of train how you would do it if real. I'm the only non-SWAT guy in my dept with a PC, and I bought mine out of my own pocket |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:54:15 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How many LEOs are issued armor that defeats 5.56? at one department, all of them. other department we buy all our gear. I'm the only non-SWAT guy in my dept with a PC, and I bought mine out of my own pocket Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
never said that. I said you SHOULD be wearing armor when doing movement training. How many LEOs are issued armor that defeats 5.56? at one department, all of them. other department we buy all our gear. Quoted:
we have always worn the full tac vest when doing any movement training. yes, the use of a safety should be automatic, and I am a big fan of train how you would do it if real. I'm the only non-SWAT guy in my dept with a PC, and I bought mine out of my own pocket |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 11:32:24 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. Exactly this. If the notion confuses you, go train some more. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:25:17 PM EDT
[#13]
I've seen a lot of debate about safety on until you see a threat/target, then safety off, etc. I've even seen people saying when a SWAT guy makes entry his rifle should be on safe, etc.
This is my sentiment. I'm issued a Glock 35 and a AR15. I train to keep my finger out of the trigger guard and to keep my muzzle pointed in a safe direction on both of them. If I'm making entry or facing an active threat my Glock will be out of the holster or my AR will be off safe. If I'm not making entry or not facing an active threat my Glock will be holstered or my AR will be on safe. If the muzzle of either of my weapons flag anyone at any time that's a HUGE screw up on my part. If I have a negligent discharge that's an even bigger screw up. The chance of doing both at the same time is there but unlikely because I train hard and stay disciplined. So with that said when I'm doing movement drills with my Glock I do not holster every time I move and when I'm doing movement drills with my AR I do not put on safe every time I move. I do put my AR on safe any time I sling it because I know the likely hood of some random article getting inside my trigger guard and causing an accidental discharge is there. Plus I don't have full control over the muzzle of my rifle when its in a slung state. When sh!t goes bad it tends to go bad FAST. Sure if you train for the safety to be muscle memory its a reflex. But if you take a round before you can disengage that safety, your chances of putting rounds down range has been significantly lowered. Where I work any safety violation from any person will result in every person on the range doing pushups/burpees... No rank is exempt. And TBH I've never seen anyone flag anyone else with a muzzle or have a ND... Wouldn't wanna be there if that happens. With all that said for a very basic class for newer/less experienced guys I'd say its probably not a bad idea to teach that way. Just because there is usually a careless one in the bunch. 
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:06:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
at one department, all of them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
How many LEOs are issued armor that defeats 5.56? at one department, all of them. Ok I've never seen an agency that issued all of its guys ceramic plates and carriers If your other agency has guys willing to make the expenditure then good for them |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:09:42 PM EDT
[#15]
Our rule is safety on or pistol de-cocked when moving to another position. When going from standing to kneeling we do not de-cock or put the safety on.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:16:47 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exactly this. If the notion confuses you, go train some more. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. Exactly this. If the notion confuses you, go train some more. Agree. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:20:25 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
sounds like a course ment for VERY basic training. safety comes off when entering a threat area, doesnt go back on until all threats are gone. you SHOULD train how you fight. and everyone should be wearing armor anyway. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Any opinion on this? Course of fire for AR15 rifle is 10 rds standing 5 rds kneeling and 5 rounds prone. Firearms instructor wants the safety engaged before going to the kneel and prone. I agree prior to running with rifle to the next station but from a fixed position? sounds like a course ment for VERY basic training. safety comes off when entering a threat area, doesnt go back on until all threats are gone. you SHOULD train how you fight. and everyone should be wearing armor anyway. Uh no. Safety is on unless you are actively engaging a target. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:23:02 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. Yep. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 3:45:42 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. ^ this |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 5:15:22 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. What he said. Safety comes off as the rifle comes up on target. It takes a fraction of a second to switch off the safety , which is way less time than it takes to bring the rifle up. When the gun comes off target, switch the safety back on. I have done this so much that I don't even know I'm doing it anymore, and it doesn't slow me down a bit. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 7:49:11 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What he said. Safety comes off as the rifle comes up on target. It takes a fraction of a second to switch off the safety , which is way less time than it takes to bring the rifle up. When the gun comes off target, switch the safety back on. I have done this so much that I don't even know I'm doing it anymore, and it doesn't slow me down a bit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. What he said. Safety comes off as the rifle comes up on target. It takes a fraction of a second to switch off the safety , which is way less time than it takes to bring the rifle up. When the gun comes off target, switch the safety back on. I have done this so much that I don't even know I'm doing it anymore, and it doesn't slow me down a bit. thats fine if you are doing it that way or it makes you more comfortable. but I see it as unnecessary unless you have the habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when you are not shooting. finger outside the trigger guard=no bang. in our training, flip off safety when stacking up, flip it back on when building is clear. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 7:56:33 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So with that said when I'm doing movement drills with my Glock I do not holster every time I move and when I'm doing movement drills with my AR I do not put on safe every time I move. I do put my AR on safe any time I sling it because I know the likely hood of some random article getting inside my trigger guard and causing an accidental discharge is there. Plus I don't have full control over the muzzle of my rifle when its in a slung state. Made the same argument that we go from standing to kneeing to prone with our glocks out, finger off trigger. The response was that not everyone is at the same level with the rifle. (semi annual qualifications) Hence, "no child left behind" occurs with Police training too. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 8:11:20 AM EDT
[#23]
I guess it would depend on why you are going from standing to kneeling, or prone.
If you are actively engaging and changing body position during a fight, that would be different than you are done engaging and then changing body position. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 10:20:25 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
but I see it as unnecessary unless you have the habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when you are not shooting. finger outside the trigger guard=no bang. in our training, flip off safety when stacking up, flip it back on when building is clear. Stuff never gets caught inside your trigger guard when you're moving? |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:12:09 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stuff never gets caught inside your trigger guard when you're moving? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
but I see it as unnecessary unless you have the habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when you are not shooting. finger outside the trigger guard=no bang. in our training, flip off safety when stacking up, flip it back on when building is clear. Stuff never gets caught inside your trigger guard when you're moving? its a possibility, but a slim one. moving through a home or business is alot different then moving through thick brush. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 11:24:08 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Made the same argument that we go from standing to kneeing to prone with our glocks out, finger off trigger. The response was that not everyone is at the same level with the rifle. (semi annual qualifications) Hence, "no child left behind" occurs with Police training too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So with that said when I'm doing movement drills with my Glock I do not holster every time I move and when I'm doing movement drills with my AR I do not put on safe every time I move. I do put my AR on safe any time I sling it because I know the likely hood of some random article getting inside my trigger guard and causing an accidental discharge is there. Plus I don't have full control over the muzzle of my rifle when its in a slung state. Made the same argument that we go from standing to kneeing to prone with our glocks out, finger off trigger. The response was that not everyone is at the same level with the rifle. (semi annual qualifications) Hence, "no child left behind" occurs with Police training too. A lot of it probably depends on level of competence as well. IMO its much easier to sweep someone with a handgun then a rifle though so by default anything done with a handgun would be more hazardous. We train to stay on line, even when shooting and moving... On a PD basis if its a shoot-move thing then there is usually a training guy hanging onto the belt of whomever is shooting/moving to make sure they stay on line. On SWAT not so much but nobody ever gets off line on the range. I can go from standing to prone (or any other position) to back standing with a HG/AR without my muzzle moving from target/down range with relative ease. I'd assume anyone who cannot accomplish this is probably over-weight or suffering from an injury. No doubt your department has people who can't change shooting levels while keeping their gun on target. I guess my whole argument is the majority of my shooting aside from static drills//behind cover/qualification is done on the move. Should I trip or fall while shooting on the move my muzzle will stay down range as well and not sweep anyone next to me. If I can't safely move with my gun off safety and muzzle down range when I'm not shooting how the heck and I supposed to do it when I'm actively engaging a target? |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 11:51:11 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
thats fine if you are doing it that way or it makes you more comfortable. but I see it as unnecessary unless you have the habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when you are not shooting. finger outside the trigger guard=no bang. in our training, flip off safety when stacking up, flip it back on when building is clear. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. What he said. Safety comes off as the rifle comes up on target. It takes a fraction of a second to switch off the safety , which is way less time than it takes to bring the rifle up. When the gun comes off target, switch the safety back on. I have done this so much that I don't even know I'm doing it anymore, and it doesn't slow me down a bit. thats fine if you are doing it that way or it makes you more comfortable. but I see it as unnecessary unless you have the habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when you are not shooting. finger outside the trigger guard=no bang. in our training, flip off safety when stacking up, flip it back on when building is clear. No way... but to each their own. No way would I operate in a stack knowing the guy behind me was hot and off safe. Lets face it... entries can get ugly, people fall... the fight guy gets overwhelmed... shit can get skewered in a hurry... having long guns off safe during an entry is an added risk that's not necessary in my opinion. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 6:45:10 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No way... but to each their own. No way would I operate in a stack knowing the guy behind me was hot and off safe. Lets face it... entries can get ugly, people fall... the fight guy gets overwhelmed... shit can get skewered in a hurry... having long guns off safe during an entry is an added risk that's not necessary in my opinion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. What he said. Safety comes off as the rifle comes up on target. It takes a fraction of a second to switch off the safety , which is way less time than it takes to bring the rifle up. When the gun comes off target, switch the safety back on. I have done this so much that I don't even know I'm doing it anymore, and it doesn't slow me down a bit. thats fine if you are doing it that way or it makes you more comfortable. but I see it as unnecessary unless you have the habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when you are not shooting. finger outside the trigger guard=no bang. in our training, flip off safety when stacking up, flip it back on when building is clear. No way... but to each their own. No way would I operate in a stack knowing the guy behind me was hot and off safe. Lets face it... entries can get ugly, people fall... the fight guy gets overwhelmed... shit can get skewered in a hurry... having long guns off safe during an entry is an added risk that's not necessary in my opinion. Does your department carry any glocks, and how do you reconcile your safety on rule with a gun with no safety? General question to those who say safety always on when not actually shooting. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 7:35:21 AM EDT
[#29]
I'm generally in the "Safety on" camp unless it's REAL HAIRY!
I am too tired to think about it right now (just got home from night shift) but I seen a vid referenced a couple weeks ago on another board with (some former SF guy that now teaches open classes) that now teaches/preaches SAFETY ON DURING MAGAZINE CHANGES, EVEN IN A FIGHT. He states (and I can see his logic even if I am not teaching it to my guys) that "the world can change between magazines" in a police gunfight. Ya'll fight over that now-I'm going to bed... 
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Posted: 10/23/2014 7:49:52 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
its a possibility, but a slim one. moving through a home or business is alot different then moving through thick brush. There seems to be a lot of people getting shot from what you deem to be a slim possibility I'll eliminate slim and train to click that safety as I always have, and I'll continue to train my people to do the same |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 8:26:26 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess it would depend on why you are going from standing to kneeling, or prone. If you are actively engaging and changing body position during a fight, that would be different than you are done engaging and then changing body position. Sounds about right. If I engage from standing, assess, scan, break 180 and then move, it's safety on and condition check before changing position. If I'm actively engaging or immediately moving on the same position I just dealt with, safety is off. As for inside, the safety is on until a target is identified and stays off until primary and secondary sectors of fire have been covered, then it gets switched back on during condition check. It never gets disengaged if there's nothing to shoot. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 11:20:54 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does your department carry any glocks, and how do you reconcile your safety on rule with a gun with no safety? General question to those who say safety always on when not actually shooting. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. What he said. Safety comes off as the rifle comes up on target. It takes a fraction of a second to switch off the safety , which is way less time than it takes to bring the rifle up. When the gun comes off target, switch the safety back on. I have done this so much that I don't even know I'm doing it anymore, and it doesn't slow me down a bit. thats fine if you are doing it that way or it makes you more comfortable. but I see it as unnecessary unless you have the habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when you are not shooting. finger outside the trigger guard=no bang. in our training, flip off safety when stacking up, flip it back on when building is clear. No way... but to each their own. No way would I operate in a stack knowing the guy behind me was hot and off safe. Lets face it... entries can get ugly, people fall... the fight guy gets overwhelmed... shit can get skewered in a hurry... having long guns off safe during an entry is an added risk that's not necessary in my opinion. Does your department carry any glocks, and how do you reconcile your safety on rule with a gun with no safety? General question to those who say safety always on when not actually shooting. Do you wear a seatbelt? How do you reconcile your seatbelt safety rule when riding in an old car with no seat belt? See how this works? Also if my own guy is going to shoot me from 5 feet away, I'd much prefer 9mm over 5.56. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 11:25:15 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm generally in the "Safety on" camp unless it's REAL HAIRY! I am too tired to think about it right now (just got home from night shift) but I seen a vid referenced a couple weeks ago on another board with (some former SF guy that now teaches open classes) that now teaches/preaches SAFETY ON DURING MAGAZINE CHANGES, EVEN IN A FIGHT. He states (and I can see his logic even if I am not teaching it to my guys) that "the world can change between magazines" in a police gunfight. Ya'll fight over that now-I'm going to bed... I don't know about the world changing. I do know that people with a lot of training and muscle memory to disengage the safety when identifying a threat, and re-engage it immediately after they are done using the trigger rarely have issues about "forgetting" |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 11:31:49 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 11:35:54 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
thats fine if you are doing it that way or it makes you more comfortable. but I see it as unnecessary unless you have the habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when you are not shooting. finger outside the trigger guard=no bang. in our training, flip off safety when stacking up, flip it back on when building is clear. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. What he said. Safety comes off as the rifle comes up on target. It takes a fraction of a second to switch off the safety , which is way less time than it takes to bring the rifle up. When the gun comes off target, switch the safety back on. I have done this so much that I don't even know I'm doing it anymore, and it doesn't slow me down a bit. thats fine if you are doing it that way or it makes you more comfortable. but I see it as unnecessary unless you have the habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when you are not shooting. finger outside the trigger guard=no bang. in our training, flip off safety when stacking up, flip it back on when building is clear. And that will lead you to what happened in Detroit with Officer Weekley. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 3:36:43 PM EDT
[#36]
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Does your department carry any glocks, and how do you reconcile your safety on rule with a gun with no safety? General question to those who say safety always on when not actually shooting. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. What he said. Safety comes off as the rifle comes up on target. It takes a fraction of a second to switch off the safety , which is way less time than it takes to bring the rifle up. When the gun comes off target, switch the safety back on. I have done this so much that I don't even know I'm doing it anymore, and it doesn't slow me down a bit. thats fine if you are doing it that way or it makes you more comfortable. but I see it as unnecessary unless you have the habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when you are not shooting. finger outside the trigger guard=no bang. in our training, flip off safety when stacking up, flip it back on when building is clear. No way... but to each their own. No way would I operate in a stack knowing the guy behind me was hot and off safe. Lets face it... entries can get ugly, people fall... the fight guy gets overwhelmed... shit can get skewered in a hurry... having long guns off safe during an entry is an added risk that's not necessary in my opinion. Does your department carry any glocks, and how do you reconcile your safety on rule with a gun with no safety? General question to those who say safety always on when not actually shooting. Do you realize how stupid your logic sounds? In case you don't get the concept.... USE WHAT'S AVAIABLE to make the mission as safe as practical... using a safety on a long gun during an entry operation/stack is practical. Using a safety on a long gun does not slow you down, if it does, you need to train more. Do what you want... it's YOU and YOUR TEAM that are involved, not me. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 5:52:16 PM EDT
[#37]
The problem lies predominantly with teams that also run MP5s, since the safety cannot be easily manipulated coming on and off target.
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Posted: 10/23/2014 6:39:28 PM EDT
[#38]
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The problem lies predominantly with teams that also run MP5s, since the safety cannot be easily manipulated coming on and off target. Does anyone still use those...? |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 6:48:30 PM EDT
[#39]
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Does anyone still use those...? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The problem lies predominantly with teams that also run MP5s, since the safety cannot be easily manipulated coming on and off target. Does anyone still use those...? Lots around here. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 10:59:43 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
sounds like a course ment for VERY basic training. safety comes off when entering a threat area, doesnt go back on until all threats are gone. you SHOULD train how you fight. and everyone should be wearing armor anyway. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Any opinion on this? Course of fire for AR15 rifle is 10 rds standing 5 rds kneeling and 5 rounds prone. Firearms instructor wants the safety engaged before going to the kneel and prone. I agree prior to running with rifle to the next station but from a fixed position? sounds like a course ment for VERY basic training. safety comes off when entering a threat area, doesnt go back on until all threats are gone. you SHOULD train how you fight. and everyone should be wearing armor anyway. This is 100% BAD MOJO. safety off when you get sight picture. anything else is reckless. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 11:00:45 PM EDT
[#41]
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Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. this. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 7:16:19 AM EDT
[#42]
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And that will lead you to what happened in Detroit with Officer Weekley. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. What he said. Safety comes off as the rifle comes up on target. It takes a fraction of a second to switch off the safety , which is way less time than it takes to bring the rifle up. When the gun comes off target, switch the safety back on. I have done this so much that I don't even know I'm doing it anymore, and it doesn't slow me down a bit. thats fine if you are doing it that way or it makes you more comfortable. but I see it as unnecessary unless you have the habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when you are not shooting. finger outside the trigger guard=no bang. in our training, flip off safety when stacking up, flip it back on when building is clear. And that will lead you to what happened in Detroit with Officer Weekley. And I will add this...I know of two cases locally where teams thought just like that. In both cases, the officers involved were guys that I know and trust with my life. In both cases, they touched off a 5.56 round on an entry. In both cases, they were fortunate that their fuck ups only damaged furniture and/or sheetrock rather than an innocent party or a fellow team member. Good, quality, well-trained, honorable, proficient cops make mistakes. Sometimes you get lucky and nobody learns the lesson in blood, other times, not so much. You and your team are NOT immune from those mistakes. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 7:21:06 AM EDT
[#43]
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Do you realize how stupid your logic sounds? In case you don't get the concept.... USE WHAT'S AVAIABLE to make the mission as safe as practical... using a safety on a long gun during an entry operation/stack is practical. Using a safety on a long gun does not slow you down, if it does, you need to train more. Do what you want... it's YOU and YOUR TEAM that are involved, not me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No way... but to each their own. No way would I operate in a stack knowing the guy behind me was hot and off safe. Lets face it... entries can get ugly, people fall... the fight guy gets overwhelmed... shit can get skewered in a hurry... having long guns off safe during an entry is an added risk that's not necessary in my opinion. Does your department carry any glocks, and how do you reconcile your safety on rule with a gun with no safety? General question to those who say safety always on when not actually shooting. Do you realize how stupid your logic sounds? In case you don't get the concept.... USE WHAT'S AVAIABLE to make the mission as safe as practical... using a safety on a long gun during an entry operation/stack is practical. Using a safety on a long gun does not slow you down, if it does, you need to train more. Do what you want... it's YOU and YOUR TEAM that are involved, not me. its not my logic, its yours. its just a question, settle down. as to what is available, there are A LOT of other handguns out there besides glock. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 7:24:14 AM EDT
[#44]
I can't believe this is still being argued in 2014. There is no reason not to engage the safety as soon as you come off the sights.
tftt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/SWAT_Mechanical_Safety_On_or_Off.pdf EDIT: Link fixed. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 9:43:55 AM EDT
[#45]
We train with off on target back on when off target.
And just saying, I believe the Columbia PD SRT team here in Missouri still runs MP5s. Never handled one so I am not familiar with the safety switch. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 10:56:34 AM EDT
[#46]
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We train with off on target back on when off target. And just saying, I believe the Columbia PD SRT team here in Missouri still runs MP5s. Never handled one so I am not familiar with the safety switch. Safety is very non-user-friendly. It's often operated by the support hand to ensure the correct fire selection, which makes it near impossible to operate in a dynamic situation. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 6:40:18 PM EDT
[#47]
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Safety comes off when you recognize the threat and are coming up on target. When the threat is neutralized (or course of fire is shot) safety is re-engaged. That is why more and more people are teaching to engage safety between the courses of fire so it reinforce the muscle memory of threat-on sights and safety off, no threat=safety on. Saying that everyone should be wearing their armor is bad as that means you might as well run around with a hot gun the whole time as the odds of us shooting each other in that 8x10 rifle plate are 100% so everyone goes home. One of the most tragic things we see is blue on blue in training. I will recommend that you make sure you are covering the target down and scanning for other threats before you re-engage the safety. No reason to go near that safety until the course of fire is completely over, the scan has been completed, and the gun had been made ready/reloaded. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 8:28:23 PM EDT
[#48]
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Does anyone still use those...? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The problem lies predominantly with teams that also run MP5s, since the safety cannot be easily manipulated coming on and off target. Does anyone still use those...? We still have a couple, but they rarely leave the tac truck. Being giant pistols that need Greedo-length thumbs to manipulate the selector, they just are not popular among the guys. And don't get me started on HK's customer service... |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 8:40:25 PM EDT
[#49]
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Gun on target safety off, gun off target safety on. This is correct. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 8:41:51 PM EDT
[#50]
Good habit to be in. Especially if you train to disengage the safety as the trigger is pulled.
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