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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:43:04 AM EDT
[#1]
Not SWAT but armor is armor. You want plates. You may be able to get them from DRMO though the condition could be a deal breaker. If you do, Xray them. But you want hard armor.
Look at Crye, Mayflower and Velocity Systems first for the best in armor. Decide how much coverage you want, there are lots of options. Armor Express has a rep for being expensive and a generation behind in design. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:50:46 AM EDT
[#2]
i hear ar500 is the up and coming thing
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Posted: 4/8/2014 9:14:39 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i hear ar500 is the up and coming thing 
You're friggen kidding, right??? This ain't GD and this ain't the EE. If you were serious, then with all due respect you need to venture back into your lane wherever the hell it is because it's obviously not in regards to this topic. If you were being sarcastic, then you need to add a damn smiley face or four because it sure as heck doesn't come across that way. Either way, stay safe and remember that incoming fire has the right of way!! 
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Posted: 4/8/2014 9:27:42 AM EDT
[#4]
The thing you need to look for is that it is NIJ05-06 certified. You are going to look at Level IIIA vests, but consider plates to bring you up to a Level III or IV.
When considering vests, who is wearing them and for what, e.g., Raid, Entry, Sniper, etc. There are many vest manufacturers and vest designs. You cannot please all of the officers on the team, but if I were you I would invite some manufacturers to your department and have them show you their tactical vests. You will have a chance to ask questions and one you decide on a couple, ask for one to wear test to make certain it meets your needs! |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 9:30:09 AM EDT
[#5]
A great resource for what you are researching is http://ntoa.org. I suggest getting membership and then exploring our databases.
If I may, I'm going to offer advise you didn't specify. Get training; specifically TEAM training. I was in your shoes 15 years ago, and didn't have any of the resources available today. That training, beyond the obvious will provide you contacts with the the guys/gals who have "been there/done that" and can give you advise. I'm willing to bet there are teams already operating near you. Don't be afraid to ask them the questions you are asking here. My guys run a variety of setups depending on the OP. By no means are we THE resource, but we run anything from soft body armor up to and including ceramic plate. Just depends. Good luck!
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Posted: 4/8/2014 11:37:05 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The thing you need to look for is that it is NIJ05-06 certified. You are going to look at Level IIIA vests, but consider plates to bring you up to a Level III or IV. When considering vests, who is wearing them and for what, e.g., Raid, Entry, Sniper, etc. There are many vest manufacturers and vest designs. You cannot please all of the officers on the team, but if I were you I would invite some manufacturers to your department and have them show you their tactical vests. You will have a chance to ask questions and one you decide on a couple, ask for one to wear test to make certain it meets your needs! First off, wow that's "lurker" status if I've ever seen one. This is your first post in 8 years??  
To add onto what Hulka is stating, when you do decide on a manufacturer or two, have them provide you with a list of what agencies are using them. Then contact those agencies and see how their service has been, how the vests have held up, and what issues they've faced. Make sure to talk to some of the ground pounders and not just the TL's. Sometimes there's some major disconnect between Brass and Boots. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 4:26:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Stay away from Dragon Skin. They are insanely heavy and mostly expensive garbage.
Get a rep from point blank to come in and bring samples. They own PACA, Paraclete, and of course Point Blank. Combined I think they offer like 15 options for tactical armor. We currently use the Dragon Fire. They're bulky but we went for protection over mobility. They're also modular so you can strip a lot of the extra stuff off. 
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:09:38 AM EDT
[#8]
My dept. is upgrading from Dragon Skins to a Diamondback Tactical system. The DS are heavy and in my opinion not very user friendly, my advice would be to run, not walk, from anything with the DS logo. YMMV.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:22:42 AM EDT
[#9]
We use Armor Express Lighthawk XT vest with a level IV plate in the front. I really don't care for the vest as I find it overly bulky and difficult to move in. I much prefer Protech fav mkII I had before.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 12:41:50 PM EDT
[#10]
Do your duty guys wear vests?
Our patrol guys wear Level III, so while they started running Blackhawk LBV's as throw-overs they eventually changed to plate carriers with MOLLE attachments. This makes it fast for the patrol guys who are getting re-tasked to an incident - pull off the uniform shirt and pants, leave the vest, don the camo, throw on the PC, grab long arm and helmet and go. Kind of put a non-armor wearing medic like me at a disadvantage though.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 2:40:01 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i hear ar500 is the up and coming thing God I hope my sarcasm meter is broken... |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:44:08 PM EDT
[#12]
Mayflower is nice kit, however, they wear really fast. If I were going to do it all over again, I have seen that Diamondback Tactical offers the same kit, but from what I have seen, it last longer.
Good Luck. |
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Posted: 4/10/2014 11:15:17 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do your duty guys wear vests? Our patrol guys wear Level III, so while they started running Blackhawk LBV's as throw-overs they eventually changed to plate carriers with MOLLE attachments. This makes it fast for the patrol guys who are getting re-tasked to an incident - pull off the uniform shirt and pants, leave the vest, don the camo, throw on the PC, grab long arm and helmet and go. Kind of put a non-armor wearing medic like me at a disadvantage though. We have Armor Express Level III some wear there internal others have the outer carrier. We have been talking about that if a guy is on duty what is he going to do. I have been the main voice on my PD about getting every officer rifle plates for active shooter and for our gun calls three years here and I have only been to one gun call were the guy had a pistol rest have been rifle calls in 2013 we had more then 24 gun calls. I'm also the only one who feels that EVERY officer should carry a gun shot kit on there belt or in there vest keep telling them "It's not if an Officer gets shot we should be looking at it as when an officer gets shot!" Good thing is our new Lt is a Iraq combat vet Army Ranger who was shot in Iraq who is also apart of the SRT been a Lt for 4 weeks and has gotten a lot done for us on the street he is part of why we are starting a SRT. So I know I can talk him into the gun shot kit! |
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Posted: 4/11/2014 12:44:51 PM EDT
[#14]
Are there any units out there that use plat carriers only?
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Posted: 4/12/2014 9:27:11 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are there any units out there that use plat carriers only? prob not. more protection equals more life. My soft armor is from Safariland and is always on. Our SRT team is not issued hard armor though. Our SWAT guys run soft armor all the time then hard armor with the plate carriers |
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Posted: 4/12/2014 11:36:32 PM EDT
[#16]
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Are there any units out there that use plat carriers only? I have never seen one. Terrible idea in my opinion. |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 5:04:08 AM EDT
[#17]
I have been looking at vest and most that I have seen only take the hard plates need to find some that take both.
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Posted: 4/14/2014 6:30:25 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have never seen one. Terrible idea in my opinion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Are there any units out there that use plat carriers only? I have never seen one. Terrible idea in my opinion. Why exactly is that? I can think of many reasons why a plate carrier would be more effective, would provide adequate protection, and would be a better option than a dual armor carrier. I'm not saying that it's the only option, but to say that it's a 'terrible idea' is just plain wrong. Pro-tip: Soft Body Armor isn't capable of stopping rifle fire, plates are. Therefore, if you have standalone plates then there's no reason to have SBA and plates. |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 9:02:55 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why exactly is that? I can think of many reasons why a plate carrier would be more effective, would provide adequate protection, and would be a better option than a dual armor carrier. I'm not saying that it's the only option, but to say that it's a 'terrible idea' is just plain wrong. Pro-tip: Soft Body Armor isn't capable of stopping rifle fire, plates are. Therefore, if you have standalone plates then there's no reason to have SBA and plates. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are there any units out there that use plat carriers only? I have never seen one. Terrible idea in my opinion. Why exactly is that? I can think of many reasons why a plate carrier would be more effective, would provide adequate protection, and would be a better option than a dual armor carrier. I'm not saying that it's the only option, but to say that it's a 'terrible idea' is just plain wrong. Pro-tip: Soft Body Armor isn't capable of stopping rifle fire, plates are. Therefore, if you have standalone plates then there's no reason to have SBA and plates. So your argument is that plate carriers only are an acceptable level of protection in a SWAT/SRT atmosphere? Although plates are great to stop rifle rounds, the limited coverage they offer is a major problem for entry assignments. Plate carrier over soft armor, fine. Lacking side protection not to mention the additional coverage (throat, collar, shoulder , bicep) modern entry gear offers is IMO a terrible idea. Perimeter/sniper assignments would be fine, not entry. The inability of SBA to stop rifle rounds doesn't negate it's necessity. Just my opinion as a "SWAT guy". Our entry guys wear the full setup I posted above. Scout/ perimeter usually scale theirs back to just plates or SBA to save weight. That's the nice thing about getting a full setup is you can scale it to the preferences of the individual "operator" (I hate that phrase). |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 9:37:10 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So your argument is that plate carriers only are an acceptable level of protection in a SWAT/SRT atmosphere? Although plates are great to stop rifle rounds, the limited coverage they offer is a major problem for entry assignments. Plate carrier over soft armor, fine. Lacking side protection not to mention the additional coverage (throat, collar, shoulder , bicep) modern entry gear offers is IMO a terrible idea. Perimeter/sniper assignments would be fine, not entry. The inability of SBA to stop rifle rounds doesn't negate it's necessity. Yes and no. I am saying that plate carriers are an acceptable level of protection for SWAT / Patrol depending on the situation; I am not saying it's the only acceptable level of protection for every situation. I wouldn't feel unprotected with a properly setup PC while on an entry or most other situations. A properly setup PC with plates has almost the exact same amount of coverage as a SBA carrier, but with the increased Level of protection. You can add all the turtle gear (deltoid, nut-knocker, etc) that you want to most of the modern PC's. Go check SKD's website or any of the other major suppliers to see just how many offer PC's with side plate pockets. Hint: the vast majority of them do. And another thing, not all SRT's / SWAT's use the throat, collar, nut-knocker, and deltoid protection. ETA: And for the record, during the height of the war, the USMIL conducted more entries and building searches than SWAT... and they have no issues with plates being the primary level of protection... and I'd wage to guess that the USMIL got shot at a hell of a lot more than every PD combined. |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 9:43:14 AM EDT
[#21]
TYR Tactical
First Spear Crye Precision Mayflower Research and Consulting. Pick armor that stops the threats you are potentially going to encounter including rifles. No Steel plates. ESAPI or better rating. Size armor AND PLATES to each vest/user. No one size fits all. For soft armor, get something that meets the new FBI standard. Much improved over NIJ ballistics. Those companies can give you all the samples and info you need. |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 9:46:53 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes and no. I am saying that plate carriers are an acceptable level of protection for SWAT / Patrol depending on the situation; I am not saying it's the only acceptable level of protection for every situation. I wouldn't feel unprotected with a properly setup PC while on an entry or most other situations. A properly setup PC with plates has almost the exact same amount of coverage as a SBA carrier, but with the increased Level of protection. You can add all the turtle gear (deltoid, nut-knocker, etc) that you want to most of the modern PC's. Go check SKD's website or any of the other major suppliers to see just how many offer PC's with side plate pockets. Hint: the vast majority of them do. And another thing, not all SRT's / SWAT's use the throat, collar, nut-knocker, and deltoid protection. ETA: And for the record, during the height of the war, the USMIL conducted more entries and building searches than SWAT... and they have no issues with plates being the primary level of protection... and I'd wage to guess that the USMIL got shot at a hell of a lot more than every PD combined. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So your argument is that plate carriers only are an acceptable level of protection in a SWAT/SRT atmosphere? Although plates are great to stop rifle rounds, the limited coverage they offer is a major problem for entry assignments. Plate carrier over soft armor, fine. Lacking side protection not to mention the additional coverage (throat, collar, shoulder , bicep) modern entry gear offers is IMO a terrible idea. Perimeter/sniper assignments would be fine, not entry. The inability of SBA to stop rifle rounds doesn't negate it's necessity. Yes and no. I am saying that plate carriers are an acceptable level of protection for SWAT / Patrol depending on the situation; I am not saying it's the only acceptable level of protection for every situation. I wouldn't feel unprotected with a properly setup PC while on an entry or most other situations. A properly setup PC with plates has almost the exact same amount of coverage as a SBA carrier, but with the increased Level of protection. You can add all the turtle gear (deltoid, nut-knocker, etc) that you want to most of the modern PC's. Go check SKD's website or any of the other major suppliers to see just how many offer PC's with side plate pockets. Hint: the vast majority of them do. And another thing, not all SRT's / SWAT's use the throat, collar, nut-knocker, and deltoid protection. ETA: And for the record, during the height of the war, the USMIL conducted more entries and building searches than SWAT... and they have no issues with plates being the primary level of protection... and I'd wage to guess that the USMIL got shot at a hell of a lot more than every PD combined. You can't compare military entry to SWAT entry 1 for 1. For starters, the US Mil has mobility issues over distance that SWAT isn't faced with. The US Mil can also firepower their way through a situation where SWAT can't. SWAT is much more likely to get shot through walls and whatnot without being able to simply apply belt fed to the problem. Plate carriers got a lot of people hurt in the Military...but they were and are a tradeoff for mobility and endurance that makes sense in a military application. They have no business in LE without soft armor. |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 11:19:31 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes and no. I am saying that plate carriers are an acceptable level of protection for SWAT / Patrol depending on the situation; I am not saying it's the only acceptable level of protection for every situation. I wouldn't feel unprotected with a properly setup PC while on an entry or most other situations. A properly setup PC with plates has almost the exact same amount of coverage as a SBA carrier, but with the increased Level of protection. You can add all the turtle gear (deltoid, nut-knocker, etc) that you want to most of the modern PC's. Go check SKD's website or any of the other major suppliers to see just how many offer PC's with side plate pockets. Hint: the vast majority of them do. And another thing, not all SRT's / SWAT's use the throat, collar, nut-knocker, and deltoid protection. ETA: And for the record, during the height of the war, the USMIL conducted more entries and building searches than SWAT... and they have no issues with plates being the primary level of protection... and I'd wage to guess that the USMIL got shot at a hell of a lot more than every PD combined. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So your argument is that plate carriers only are an acceptable level of protection in a SWAT/SRT atmosphere? Although plates are great to stop rifle rounds, the limited coverage they offer is a major problem for entry assignments. Plate carrier over soft armor, fine. Lacking side protection not to mention the additional coverage (throat, collar, shoulder , bicep) modern entry gear offers is IMO a terrible idea. Perimeter/sniper assignments would be fine, not entry. The inability of SBA to stop rifle rounds doesn't negate it's necessity. Yes and no. I am saying that plate carriers are an acceptable level of protection for SWAT / Patrol depending on the situation; I am not saying it's the only acceptable level of protection for every situation. I wouldn't feel unprotected with a properly setup PC while on an entry or most other situations. A properly setup PC with plates has almost the exact same amount of coverage as a SBA carrier, but with the increased Level of protection. You can add all the turtle gear (deltoid, nut-knocker, etc) that you want to most of the modern PC's. Go check SKD's website or any of the other major suppliers to see just how many offer PC's with side plate pockets. Hint: the vast majority of them do. And another thing, not all SRT's / SWAT's use the throat, collar, nut-knocker, and deltoid protection. ETA: And for the record, during the height of the war, the USMIL conducted more entries and building searches than SWAT... and they have no issues with plates being the primary level of protection... and I'd wage to guess that the USMIL got shot at a hell of a lot more than every PD combined. There is a big difference between what SWAT does and what the military does in regards to entries and their roles in general. Comparing their roles 1-1 is disingenuous. I was never in the military and don't claim to have been, but I'm pretty sure even they use SBA carriers ICW hard armor in some situations. The IOTV comes to mind. I'm not in it to start a pissing contest, I'm just trying to keep the OP from considering less-capable options because of what he read on the internet. |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 11:59:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a big difference between what SWAT does and what the military does in regards to entries and their roles in general. Comparing their roles 1-1 is disingenuous. I was never in the military and don't claim to have been, but I'm pretty sure even they use SBA carriers ICW hard armor in some situations. The IOTV comes to mind. I'm not in it to start a pissing contest, I'm just trying to keep the OP from considering less-capable options because of what he read on the internet. I'm not trying to start a pissing contest either and I hope it doesn't come off that way. It's hard to determine inflection and a lot of other things by text online. I have worn standalone plates, plates & SBA, and SBA alone, on various operations and I do understand the differences between them as I'm sure you do. There are many times that I have only worn standalone plates and taken out the SBA, and there are times that I wore SBA alone and didn't have the plates. The mission drives the gear and that's what the important take-away is in my humble opinion. Again, I do hope that my previous comment didn't come across has brash or anything negative. Sometimes I just type fast and don't really think about how it always sounds. Either way, I'd still buy you, or some of the other knuckleheads in BOTS, a beer anytime. 
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Posted: 4/14/2014 12:56:44 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not trying to start a pissing contest either and I hope it doesn't come off that way. It's hard to determine inflection and a lot of other things by text online. I have worn standalone plates, plates & SBA, and SBA alone, on various operations and I do understand the differences between them as I'm sure you do. There are many times that I have only worn standalone plates and taken out the SBA, and there are times that I wore SBA alone and didn't have the plates. The mission drives the gear and that's what the important take-away is in my humble opinion. Again, I do hope that my previous comment didn't come across has brash or anything negative. Sometimes I just type fast and don't really think about how it always sounds. Either way, I'd still buy you, or some of the other knuckleheads in BOTS, a beer anytime. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There is a big difference between what SWAT does and what the military does in regards to entries and their roles in general. Comparing their roles 1-1 is disingenuous. I was never in the military and don't claim to have been, but I'm pretty sure even they use SBA carriers ICW hard armor in some situations. The IOTV comes to mind. I'm not in it to start a pissing contest, I'm just trying to keep the OP from considering less-capable options because of what he read on the internet. I'm not trying to start a pissing contest either and I hope it doesn't come off that way. It's hard to determine inflection and a lot of other things by text online. I have worn standalone plates, plates & SBA, and SBA alone, on various operations and I do understand the differences between them as I'm sure you do. There are many times that I have only worn standalone plates and taken out the SBA, and there are times that I wore SBA alone and didn't have the plates. The mission drives the gear and that's what the important take-away is in my humble opinion. Again, I do hope that my previous comment didn't come across has brash or anything negative. Sometimes I just type fast and don't really think about how it always sounds. Either way, I'd still buy you, or some of the other knuckleheads in BOTS, a beer anytime. No worries sleeper shooter. After seeing someone suggest ar500 plates I felt like I needed to get as much good info out as possible before the OP ended up doing something really dumb
BTW if you or any of the guys in here are LE. Get yourself verified and make your way over to the LE sub forum! |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 6:53:47 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stay away from Dragon Skin. They are insanely heavy and mostly expensive garbage. Get a rep from point blank to come in and bring samples. They own PACA, Paraclete, and of course Point Blank. Combined I think they offer like 15 options for tactical armor. We currently use the Dragon Fire. They're bulky but we went for protection over mobility. They're also modular so you can strip a lot of the extra stuff off. http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h305/jgeiken/651A8281-8F7D-4CA6-A565-883F5F588274.png We have vests like these^, I love mine compared to our old vests. Like said above, they cover a lot and the trade off is some mobility/flexibility. Depending on your task, will determine your needs. Good luck with starting a team! |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:22:32 AM EDT
[#27]
I know of a few teams that are starting to go with just plate carriers for some calls. On other calls they put soft body armed underneath. The main benefit is better mobility and better shooting. Some place nameed CSAT advocates that if you can shoot faster and better than your adversary while wearing a plate carrier versus full body armor than chose the plate carrier.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:52:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stay away from Dragon Skin. They are insanely heavy and mostly expensive garbage. Get a rep from point blank to come in and bring samples. They own PACA, Paraclete, and of course Point Blank. Combined I think they offer like 15 options for tactical armor. We currently use the Dragon Fire. They're bulky but we went for protection over mobility. They're also modular so you can strip a lot of the extra stuff off. http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h305/jgeiken/651A8281-8F7D-4CA6-A565-883F5F588274.png point blank is very good, also check out kdh, they currently hold a dod contract, and they also have a couple lines of scalable systems |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 4:34:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know of a few teams that are starting to go with just plate carriers for some calls. On other calls they put soft body armed underneath. The main benefit is better mobility and better shooting. Some place nameed CSAT advocates that if you can shoot faster and better than your adversary while wearing a plate carrier versus full body armor than chose the plate carrier. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Defensive vs offensive. Police are always reactive...the bad guy often shoots first. Bullets through walls, doors, etc. Police are not ruck marching. Mobility is a relative term. Stack up in a brick entry way that is a clear fatal funnel, knock, announce, and start waiting... While waiting, think about all the places bullets can find meat around your protective vest. You will rapidly want more armor, not less. Groin protectors, DAPS, neck, underarm...use it all for entry work. YMMV. |
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